The world's first robot controlled exclusively by living bra

I

Immortalist

Guest
A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain

Meet Gordon, probably the world's first robot controlled exclusively
by living brain tissue.

Stitched together from cultured rat neurons, Gordon's primitive grey
matter was designed at the University of Reading by scientists who
unveiled the neuron-powered machine on Wednesday.

Their groundbreaking experiments explore the vanishing boundary
between natural and artificial intelligence, and could shed light on
the fundamental building blocks of memory and learning, one of the
lead researchers told AFP.

"The purpose is to figure out how memories are actually stored in a
biological brain," said Kevin Warwick, a professor at the University
of Reading and one of the robot's principle architects.

Observing how the nerve cells cohere into a network as they fire off
electrical impulses, he said, may also help scientists combat
neurodegenerative diseases that attack the brain such as Alzheimer's
and Parkinson's.

"If we can understand some of the basics of what is going on in our
little model brain, it could have enormous medical spinoffs," he said.

Looking a bit like the garbage-compacting hero of the blockbuster
animation "Wall-E", Gordon has a brain composed of 50,000 to 100,000
active neurons.

Once removed from rat foetuses and disentangled from each other with
an enzyme bath, the specialised nerve cells are laid out in a nutrient-
rich medium across an eight-by-eight centimetre (five-by-five inch)
array of 60 electrodes.

This "multi-electrode array" (MEA) serves as the interface between
living tissue and machine, with the brain sending electrical impulses
to drive the wheels of the robots, and receiving impulses delivered by
sensors reacting to the environment.

Because the brain is living tissue, it must be housed in a special
temperature-controlled unit -- it communicates with its "body" via a
Bluetooth radio link.

The robot has no additional control from a human or computer.

From the very start, the neurons get busy. "Within about 24 hours,
they start sending out feelers to each other and making connections,"
said Warwick.

"Within a week we get some spontaneous firings and brain-like
activity" similar to what happens in a normal rat -- or human --
brain, he added.

But without external stimulation, the brain will wither and die within
a couple of months.

"Now we are looking at how best to teach it to behave in certain
ways," explained Warwick.

To some extent, Gordon learns by itself. When it hits a wall, for
example, it gets an electrical stimulation from the robot's sensors.
As it confronts similar situations, it learns by habit.

To help this process along, the researchers also use different
chemicals to reinforce or inhibit the neural pathways that light up
during particular actions.

Gordon, in fact, has multiple personalities -- several MEA "brains"
that the scientists can dock into the robot.

"It's quite funny -- you get differences between the brains," said
Warwick. "This one is a bit boisterous and active, while we know
another is not going to do what we want it to."

Mainly for ethical reasons, it is unlikely that researchers at Reading
or the handful of laboratories around the world exploring the same
terrain will be using human neurons any time soon in the same kind of
experiments.

But rats brain cells are not a bad stand-in: much of the difference
between rodent and human intelligence, speculates Warwick, could be
attributed to quantity not quality.

Rats brains are composed of about one million neurons, the specialised
cells that relay information across the brain via chemicals called
neurotransmitters.

Humans have 100 billion.

"This is a simplified version of what goes on in the human brain where
we can look -- and control -- the basic features in the way that we
want. In a human brain, you can't really do that," he said.

For colleague Ben Whalley, one of the fundamental questions facing
scientists today is how to link the activity of individual neurons
with the overwhelmingly complex behaviour of whole organisms.

"The project gives us a unique opportunity to look at something which
may exhibit complex behaviours, but still remain closely tied to the
activity of individual neurons," he said.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813192458.ud84hj9h&show_article=1
 
On Aug 14, 7:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain

Their groundbreaking experiments explore the vanishing boundary
between natural and artificial intelligence,
Vanishing? vanishing??????????

and could shed light on
the fundamental building blocks of memory and learning, one of the
lead researchers told AFP.

"The purpose is to figure out how memories are actually stored in a
biological brain," said Kevin Warwick, a professor at the University
of Reading and one of the robot's principle architects.
If it's vanishing, why do they still have to figure out anything?


"If we can understand some of the basics of what is going on in our
little model brain, it could have enormous medical spinoffs," he said.
Understanding the basics is not quite the same message as the
vanishing boundary between artificial and natural intelligence.
 
On Aug 14, 1:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain
...
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813192458.ud84hj9h&show_ar....
That's very creepy, if it's real
 
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:23:23 -0700, Edward Green wrote:

On Aug 14, 1:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain
...
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813192458.ud84hj9h&show_ar...

That's very creepy, if it's real
Yup. This will have the religious nut cases up in arms for certain. How
much will a replacement laborer cost? Can we stop importing them from
Mexico?

--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend
 
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:43:46 -0700, Jerry Kraus wrote:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?
id=080813192458.ud84hj9h&show_ar...

Interesting game. But, is it really anything more than that? I often
have the feeling, these days, that scientific experiments aren't really
intended to accomplish anything at all, other than attract attention.
What really are they trying to design with this particular monstrosity,
other than the outline for a research grant?
The idea is to investigate how brains develop by studying a very
simplified one. The ultimate results will probably be implemented in
silicon (or its successor) instead of biological neurons. You never know
where a particular research program will lead. A Bell Labs investigation
of why copper from Chile made better copper oxide rectifiers than North
American copper led to semiconductors.
 
On Aug 14, 12:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain

Meet Gordon, probably the world's first robot controlled exclusively
by living brain tissue.

Stitched together from cultured rat neurons, Gordon's primitive grey
matter was designed at the University of Reading by scientists who
unveiled the neuron-powered machine on Wednesday.

Their groundbreaking experiments explore the vanishing boundary
between natural and artificial intelligence, and could shed light on
the fundamental building blocks of memory and learning, one of the
lead researchers told AFP.

"The purpose is to figure out how memories are actually stored in a
biological brain," said Kevin Warwick, a professor at the University
of Reading and one of the robot's principle architects.

Observing how the nerve cells cohere into a network as they fire off
electrical impulses, he said, may also help scientists combat
neurodegenerative diseases that attack the brain such as Alzheimer's
and Parkinson's.

"If we can understand some of the basics of what is going on in our
little model brain, it could have enormous medical spinoffs," he said.

Looking a bit like the garbage-compacting hero of the blockbuster
animation "Wall-E", Gordon has a brain composed of 50,000 to 100,000
active neurons.

Once removed from rat foetuses and disentangled from each other with
an enzyme bath, the specialised nerve cells are laid out in a nutrient-
rich medium across an eight-by-eight centimetre (five-by-five inch)
array of 60 electrodes.

This "multi-electrode array" (MEA) serves as the interface between
living tissue and machine, with the brain sending electrical impulses
to drive the wheels of the robots, and receiving impulses delivered by
sensors reacting to the environment.

Because the brain is living tissue, it must be housed in a special
temperature-controlled unit -- it communicates with its "body" via a
Bluetooth radio link.

The robot has no additional control from a human or computer.

From the very start, the neurons get busy. "Within about 24 hours,
they start sending out feelers to each other and making connections,"
said Warwick.

"Within a week we get some spontaneous firings and brain-like
activity" similar to what happens in a normal rat -- or human --
brain, he added.

But without external stimulation, the brain will wither and die within
a couple of months.

"Now we are looking at how best to teach it to behave in certain
ways," explained Warwick.

To some extent, Gordon learns by itself. When it hits a wall, for
example, it gets an electrical stimulation from the robot's sensors.
As it confronts similar situations, it learns by habit.

To help this process along, the researchers also use different
chemicals to reinforce or inhibit the neural pathways that light up
during particular actions.

Gordon, in fact, has multiple personalities -- several MEA "brains"
that the scientists can dock into the robot.

"It's quite funny -- you get differences between the brains," said
Warwick. "This one is a bit boisterous and active, while we know
another is not going to do what we want it to."

Mainly for ethical reasons, it is unlikely that researchers at Reading
or the handful of laboratories around the world exploring the same
terrain will be using human neurons any time soon in the same kind of
experiments.

But rats brain cells are not a bad stand-in: much of the difference
between rodent and human intelligence, speculates Warwick, could be
attributed to quantity not quality.

Rats brains are composed of about one million neurons, the specialised
cells that relay information across the brain via chemicals called
neurotransmitters.

Humans have 100 billion.

"This is a simplified version of what goes on in the human brain where
we can look -- and control -- the basic features in the way that we
want. In a human brain, you can't really do that," he said.

For colleague Ben Whalley, one of the fundamental questions facing
scientists today is how to link the activity of individual neurons
with the overwhelmingly complex behaviour of whole organisms.

"The project gives us a unique opportunity to look at something which
may exhibit complex behaviours, but still remain closely tied to the
activity of individual neurons," he said.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813192458.ud84hj9h&show_ar....
Interesting game. But, is it really anything more than that? I often
have the feeling, these days, that scientific experiments aren't
really intended to accomplish anything at all, other than attract
attention. What really are they trying to design with this particular
monstrosity, other than the outline for a research grant?
 
On Aug 14, 7:37 am, "Spaceman" <space...@yourclockmalfunctioned.duh>
wrote:
Immortalist wrote:
A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain

Meet Gordon, probably the world's first robot controlled exclusively
by living brain tissue.

Oh crap,
The creation of the Dalak race has begun.
:)
Dalek is a member of a fictional extraterrestrial race of mutants from
the British science fiction television series Doctor Who. Daleks are
organisms from the planet Skaro, integrated within a tank-like
mechanical casing. The resulting creatures are a powerful race bent on
universal conquest and domination, utterly without pity, compassion or
remorse (as all of their emotions were removed except hate). They are
also, collectively, the greatest extraterrestrial enemies of the Time
Lord known as the Doctor. Their most famous catchphrase is "EX-TER-MI-
NATE!", with each syllable individually screeched in a frantic
electronic voice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalek
 
On Aug 14, 7:56 am, Errol <vs.er...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Aug 14, 7:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain
Their groundbreaking experiments explore the vanishing boundary
between natural and artificial intelligence,

Vanishing? vanishing??????????

and could shed light on
the fundamental building blocks of memory and learning, one of the
lead researchers told AFP.

"The purpose is to figure out how memories are actually stored in a
biological brain," said Kevin Warwick, a professor at the University
of Reading and one of the robot's principle architects.

If it's vanishing, why do they still have to figure out anything?

"If we can understand some of the basics of what is going on in our
little model brain, it could have enormous medical spinoffs," he said.

Understanding the basics is not quite the same message as the
vanishing boundary between artificial and natural intelligence.
Gotta start somewhere and when they pile the nerves on the thing might
become more human than human...

In the great beer can theory of consciousness if you had 100,000 bear
cans that could be either standing up or on their side and you
organized them into a network it could perform intelligence, therefore
if alien brains worked by canning they would need to resupply their
beer can supply in a way similar to how in Star Trek they sometimes
have to find Dilithium Crystals for heir warp drives. Therefore aliens
could be building up beer can recycling sites is a possibility that
cannot be denied with inductive logic but its probability is low.
 
On Aug 14, 4:36 pm, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:23:23 -0700, Edward Green wrote:
On Aug 14, 1:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain
...
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813192458.ud84hj9h&show_ar...

That's very creepy, if it's real

Yup. This will have the religious nut cases up in arms for certain. How
much will a replacement laborer cost? Can we stop importing them from
Mexico?
Technological innovations of automation, corporate reengineering, lean
production, and computers have replaced the need for workers at an
alarming rate culminating in "The Third Industrial Revolution". Every
sector and industry has experienced significant trends in unemployment
and underemployment. Although virtually every worker has been
affected, technology has undermined the worker and reconceptualized
our notion of the workplace. Technology will replace nearly all labor
in today's rapidly changing globalized economy.

Solutions to global worker displacement include shorter work week to
share the remaining work to all workers. Rifkin also argues for
investment in the third sector of volunteerism and social services to
combat the rise in crime and violence that is inevitable in a society
of large scale employment. In the near future there will be massive
unemployment and we are headed to a society run by machines.

Look forward to the end of private ownership of the means of
production. Hypercompetitiveness will eliminate owners, replacing them
by better robot decision makers. Then enter nano-technology by which
individual atoms are stack in any way that please man or robot, then
fusion whereby abundant elements are combined to create scarce
elements as if by alchemy. Then the robots become a vast "welfare
state" with humans living totally for free. They will shout "tax the
robots more" when they need to alocate more resources from scientific
research the robots complete.

Starting with contemporary robotics research, a likely course for the
next 40 years of robot development, will be the rise of
superintelligent, creative, emotionally complex cyberbeings and the
end of human labor by the middle of the next century. Robot
corporations will take up residence in outer space with rogue cyborgs;
planet-size robots will cruise the solar system looking for smaller
bots to assimilate; and eventually every atom in the entire galaxy
will be transformed into data-storage space, with a full-scale
simulation of human civilization running as a subroutine somewhere.

The end result of the robotic evolution, will be beings with awesome
intelligence that are able to arrange spacetime and energy for
computation. The physics of time travel, conscious robots are indeed
possible in the author's eyes, or at best possible given our current
understanding of it. The robots themselves, with their enhanced
capabilities, will have their own arguments about us, we fight to
merge with them, we (merged with them) become the government.

We live happily ever after in the dreamstate utopia with little
flowers in
out hair....

The End of Work: The Decline of the Global Labor Force and the Dawn of
the Post-Market Era
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X53813A21

Robot: Mere Machine to Transcendent Mind
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O4B720A21

http://tinyurl.com/6kcs

--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jeffersonhttp://GreaterVoice.org/extend
 
On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:23:23 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Edward
Green <spamspamspam3@netzero.com> wrote in
<fbbdd014-7b3b-4b56-bc01-c8dd131871fd@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>:

On Aug 14, 1:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain
...
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813192458.ud84hj9h&show_ar..=
.

That's very creepy, if it's real
Have been thinking about this.
What if the experiment was repeated with politician's brain cells?
And brain cells from GW Bush (if he has enough)?
Would the outcome be different?

But on the more serious side, I'd like to give that thing challenges,
so as to learn math for example to obtain food....

The bad thing is: I will at most be as good as us.
Perhaps one day outsmart the researchers, start a species of its own,
take over the planet.. Oh but Bush already tried that.

The good thing is: we can learn about how our neurons organise.
Nice experiment.
 
On Aug 15, 7:32 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Aug 14, 7:56 am, Errol <vs.er...@gmail.com> wrote:





On Aug 14, 7:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain
Their groundbreaking experiments explore the vanishing boundary
between natural and artificial intelligence,

Vanishing? vanishing??????????

and could shed light on
the fundamental building blocks of memory and learning, one of the
lead researchers told AFP.

"The purpose is to figure out how memories are actually stored in a
biological brain," said Kevin Warwick, a professor at the University
of Reading and one of the robot's principle architects.

If it's vanishing, why do they still have to figure out anything?

"If we can understand some of the basics of what is going on in our
little model brain, it could have enormous medical spinoffs," he said..

Understanding the basics is not quite the same message as the
vanishing boundary between artificial and natural intelligence.

Gotta start somewhere and when they pile the nerves on the thing might
become more human than human...

In the great beer can theory of consciousness if you had 100,000 bear
cans that could be either standing up or on their side and you
organized them into a network it could perform intelligence, therefore
if alien brains worked by canning they would need to resupply their
beer can supply in a way similar to how in Star Trek they sometimes
have to find Dilithium Crystals for heir warp drives. Therefore aliens
could be building up beer can recycling sites is a possibility that
cannot be denied with inductive logic but its probability is low.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
No problem with that but i prefer penroses' idea that consciousness is
non-computational (cannot be simulated on a computer)

Penrose considered that if consciousness were no more than a program--
even a horrendously complex one--why wouldn't artificial-life
researchers or neuroscientists have gained at least a tiny insight
into its nature?

The reason, penrose concluded, is that the "quality of understanding
and feeling possessed by human beings is not something that can be
simulated computationally"

Penrose used the chinese room argument to show that the hardware
doesn't understand what the program is about.

I like the idea that consciousness arises from the very structure of
space-time itself and penrose is the closest to that concept.
 
On Aug 15, 1:02 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Aug 14, 4:43 pm, Jerry Kraus <jkraus_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:





On Aug 14, 12:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain

Meet Gordon, probably the world's first robot controlled exclusively
by living brain tissue.

Stitched together from cultured rat neurons, Gordon's primitive grey
matter was designed at the University of Reading by scientists who
unveiled the neuron-powered machine on Wednesday.

Their groundbreaking experiments explore the vanishing boundary
between natural and artificial intelligence, and could shed light on
the fundamental building blocks of memory and learning, one of the
lead researchers told AFP.

"The purpose is to figure out how memories are actually stored in a
biological brain," said Kevin Warwick, a professor at the University
of Reading and one of the robot's principle architects.

Observing how the nerve cells cohere into a network as they fire off
electrical impulses, he said, may also help scientists combat
neurodegenerative diseases that attack the brain such as Alzheimer's
and Parkinson's.

"If we can understand some of the basics of what is going on in our
little model brain, it could have enormous medical spinoffs," he said..

Looking a bit like the garbage-compacting hero of the blockbuster
animation "Wall-E", Gordon has a brain composed of 50,000 to 100,000
active neurons.

Once removed from rat foetuses and disentangled from each other with
an enzyme bath, the specialised nerve cells are laid out in a nutrient-
rich medium across an eight-by-eight centimetre (five-by-five inch)
array of 60 electrodes.

This "multi-electrode array" (MEA) serves as the interface between
living tissue and machine, with the brain sending electrical impulses
to drive the wheels of the robots, and receiving impulses delivered by
sensors reacting to the environment.

Because the brain is living tissue, it must be housed in a special
temperature-controlled unit -- it communicates with its "body" via a
Bluetooth radio link.

The robot has no additional control from a human or computer.

From the very start, the neurons get busy. "Within about 24 hours,
they start sending out feelers to each other and making connections,"
said Warwick.

"Within a week we get some spontaneous firings and brain-like
activity" similar to what happens in a normal rat -- or human --
brain, he added.

But without external stimulation, the brain will wither and die within
a couple of months.

"Now we are looking at how best to teach it to behave in certain
ways," explained Warwick.

To some extent, Gordon learns by itself. When it hits a wall, for
example, it gets an electrical stimulation from the robot's sensors.
As it confronts similar situations, it learns by habit.

To help this process along, the researchers also use different
chemicals to reinforce or inhibit the neural pathways that light up
during particular actions.

Gordon, in fact, has multiple personalities -- several MEA "brains"
that the scientists can dock into the robot.

"It's quite funny -- you get differences between the brains," said
Warwick. "This one is a bit boisterous and active, while we know
another is not going to do what we want it to."

Mainly for ethical reasons, it is unlikely that researchers at Reading
or the handful of laboratories around the world exploring the same
terrain will be using human neurons any time soon in the same kind of
experiments.

But rats brain cells are not a bad stand-in: much of the difference
between rodent and human intelligence, speculates Warwick, could be
attributed to quantity not quality.

Rats brains are composed of about one million neurons, the specialised
cells that relay information across the brain via chemicals called
neurotransmitters.

Humans have 100 billion.

"This is a simplified version of what goes on in the human brain where
we can look -- and control -- the basic features in the way that we
want. In a human brain, you can't really do that," he said.

For colleague Ben Whalley, one of the fundamental questions facing
scientists today is how to link the activity of individual neurons
with the overwhelmingly complex behaviour of whole organisms.

"The project gives us a unique opportunity to look at something which
may exhibit complex behaviours, but still remain closely tied to the
activity of individual neurons," he said.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813192458.ud84hj9h&show_ar...

Interesting game.  But, is it really anything more than that?  I often
have the feeling, these days, that scientific experiments aren't
really intended to accomplish anything at all, other than attract
attention.  What really are they trying to design with this particular
monstrosity, other than the outline for a research grant?

Should they throw it away then because it will be abused but possibly
developed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlTImvP8M-Q&feature=related- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Somehow, I'm not too worried about that possibility. What worries me
isn't that this is going to lead to the "Terminator". What worries me
is that it is extremely unlikely to lead to anything, and was only
proposed because it sounds a bit like the "Terminator".
 
On Aug 15, 6:28 am, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:23:23 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Edward
Green <spamspamsp...@netzero.com> wrote in
fbbdd014-7b3b-4b56-bc01-c8dd13187...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>:

On Aug 14, 1:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain
...
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813192458.ud84hj9h&show_ar...> >.

That's very creepy, if it's real

Have been thinking about this.
What if the experiment was repeated with politician's brain cells?
And brain cells from GW Bush (if he has enough)?
Would the outcome be different?

But on the more serious side, I'd like to give that thing challenges,
so as to learn math for example to obtain food....

The bad thing is: I will at most be as good as us.
Perhaps one day outsmart the researchers, start a species of its own,
take over the planet.. Oh but Bush already tried that.

The good thing is: we can learn about how our neurons organise.
Nice experiment.
Joking aside, as I think they said in the article, rat vs. human
intelligence seems to be a matter of quantity, not quality. It's
plausible to think a rat has some experience which vaguely resembles
ours, as does a dog: free of language, abstract thought, but with some
emotions. And what is the experience of a rat brain artificially
grown in a box? We don't know, and this could be animal cruelty.

I'm not sure I actually believe the article. How is the lump of tissue
kept alive? Is it simply suffused with nutrient?
 
On Aug 15, 4:53 am, Errol <vs.er...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Aug 15, 7:32 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:



On Aug 14, 7:56 am, Errol <vs.er...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Aug 14, 7:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain
Their groundbreaking experiments explore the vanishing boundary
between natural and artificial intelligence,

Vanishing? vanishing??????????

and could shed light on
the fundamental building blocks of memory and learning, one of the
lead researchers told AFP.

"The purpose is to figure out how memories are actually stored in a
biological brain," said Kevin Warwick, a professor at the University
of Reading and one of the robot's principle architects.

If it's vanishing, why do they still have to figure out anything?

"If we can understand some of the basics of what is going on in our
little model brain, it could have enormous medical spinoffs," he said.

Understanding the basics is not quite the same message as the
vanishing boundary between artificial and natural intelligence.

Gotta start somewhere and when they pile the nerves on the thing might
become more human than human...

In the great beer can theory of consciousness if you had 100,000 bear
cans that could be either standing up or on their side and you
organized them into a network it could perform intelligence, therefore
if alien brains worked by canning they would need to resupply their
beer can supply in a way similar to how in Star Trek they sometimes
have to find Dilithium Crystals for heir warp drives. Therefore aliens
could be building up beer can recycling sites is a possibility that
cannot be denied with inductive logic but its probability is low.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No problem with that but i prefer penroses' idea that consciousness is
non-computational (cannot be simulated on a computer)
If you notice in the article that the computer is made of nerve cells
only. It is easy to make or grow a brain, we do it through
reproduction and development of embryos. All we have to do is
manipulate these biological activities and we can probably discover
more aspects of consciousness than nature itself has. If I take a
rock, I take all its quantum forces with it, if I copy the rock with
actual minerals and figure a way to put them together just like they
are in the rock, I have aligned such forces Penrose spoke of.

Penrose considered that if consciousness were no more than a program--
even a horrendously complex one--why wouldn't artificial-life
researchers or neuroscientists have gained at least a tiny insight
into its nature?

The reason, penrose concluded, is that the "quality of understanding
and feeling possessed by human beings is not something that can be
simulated computationally"

Penrose used the chinese room argument to show that the hardware
doesn't understand what the program is about.

I like the idea that consciousness arises from the very structure of
space-time itself and penrose is the closest to that concept.
Something in the cell itself may align some quantum forces and these
cells are in our test tubes. There probably soon will be no need to
appeal to the impossibility dogma and Penrose's main fears will become
extinguished.

Microtubules are cylindrical molecules made by gluing together 13
strands of the protein, tubulin, to make a tube 25 nanometres across,
with a central channel about 15 nanometres wide. Each microtubule is
covered by a fuzz of protein stubs, known as MAPs (microtubule
associated proteins), and these can be used to hook clusters of
microtubules together into larger lattices. Both microtubules and MAPs
seem to be capable of a certain amount of movement, meaning that they
can be woven into plastic structures, able to give and bend.

The structural properties of microtubule assemblies make them a
valuable building material within cells. For example, a bundle of 20
microtubules form the beating, hair-like cilia that coat the surface
of many small single-celled animals, allowing them to swim. However
the main use for microtubules appears to be to make an internal
skeleton for cells-an intricate scaffolding that gives a cell its
shape but also can deform and bend enough to allow it to move.

The existence of the microtubule cytoskeleton was discovered only
relatively recently in the 1970s-previously the fixative chemicals
used in electron microscopy was having the unfortunate effect of
dissolving the tubules-so biologists still have much to learn about
what the cytoskeleton does and how it operates. Yet biologists believe
that it not only holds a cell in shape but also plays an important
role in cell metabolism, acting as a piping system or an internal
highway to move plasma and other essential cell products about the
cell. Some have suggested microtubules might do this by using their
MAP spurs to drag cell protoplasm along, hand over hand, in a
miniature bucket brigade running up the sides of a tubule.

There is also evidence that the cytoskeleton could serve as a
primitive brain. Biologists have long been puzzled how a simple single-
celled animal, like the slipper-shaped paramecium, could behave so
intelligently when it has no nervous system. A paramecium is
surprisingly nimble as it swims about in pond-bottom detritus,
twisting in and out of tight spaces in search of its dinner. Somehow
the protozoan manages to respond swiftly to information coming in from
a light-sensitive eyespot and its touch-sensitive cilia to co-ordinate
its swimming action. Several biologists have speculated that the
cytoskeleton could serve as the communication and information
processing link needed to organise such relatively complex behaviour.

This suggestion that the cytoskeleton could be a "brain within a
brain" has particularly excited the quantum theorists. In casting
around for a suitable cell structure to operate as a go-between,
connecting the sub-atomic realm with the macroscopic world of firing
brain cells, some theorists had considered that the membranes at the
synaptic junctions between nerve cells might be the site of quantum
interactions. Others had wondered whether the ion channels down the
flanks of neurons could be ruled by quantum effects. But quickly,
microtubules began to look a far better bet. While microtubules are
not unique to neurons, they are found there in particular abundance (a
fact that does not surprise neurologists given that nerve cells are so
metabolically-active and microtubules seem essential to metabolic
activity). Furthermore, the speed at which microtubules can switch
state between relaxation and contraction is believed to be of the
order of a nanosecond. This may be slow by the usual time scales of
quantum events, but it is about a million times faster than the cell
firing events usually believed to underlie consciousness and so at
least appears to get the biology of the system within striking
distance of a quantum explanation.

http://www.dichotomistic.com/mind_readings_quantum%20mind.html
 
On Aug 15, 7:16 am, Jerry Kraus <jkraus_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Aug 15, 1:02 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:



On Aug 14, 4:43 pm, Jerry Kraus <jkraus_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Aug 14, 12:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain

Meet Gordon, probably the world's first robot controlled exclusively
by living brain tissue.

Stitched together from cultured rat neurons, Gordon's primitive grey
matter was designed at the University of Reading by scientists who
unveiled the neuron-powered machine on Wednesday.

Their groundbreaking experiments explore the vanishing boundary
between natural and artificial intelligence, and could shed light on
the fundamental building blocks of memory and learning, one of the
lead researchers told AFP.

"The purpose is to figure out how memories are actually stored in a
biological brain," said Kevin Warwick, a professor at the University
of Reading and one of the robot's principle architects.

Observing how the nerve cells cohere into a network as they fire off
electrical impulses, he said, may also help scientists combat
neurodegenerative diseases that attack the brain such as Alzheimer's
and Parkinson's.

"If we can understand some of the basics of what is going on in our
little model brain, it could have enormous medical spinoffs," he said.

Looking a bit like the garbage-compacting hero of the blockbuster
animation "Wall-E", Gordon has a brain composed of 50,000 to 100,000
active neurons.

Once removed from rat foetuses and disentangled from each other with
an enzyme bath, the specialised nerve cells are laid out in a nutrient-
rich medium across an eight-by-eight centimetre (five-by-five inch)
array of 60 electrodes.

This "multi-electrode array" (MEA) serves as the interface between
living tissue and machine, with the brain sending electrical impulses
to drive the wheels of the robots, and receiving impulses delivered by
sensors reacting to the environment.

Because the brain is living tissue, it must be housed in a special
temperature-controlled unit -- it communicates with its "body" via a
Bluetooth radio link.

The robot has no additional control from a human or computer.

From the very start, the neurons get busy. "Within about 24 hours,
they start sending out feelers to each other and making connections,"
said Warwick.

"Within a week we get some spontaneous firings and brain-like
activity" similar to what happens in a normal rat -- or human --
brain, he added.

But without external stimulation, the brain will wither and die within
a couple of months.

"Now we are looking at how best to teach it to behave in certain
ways," explained Warwick.

To some extent, Gordon learns by itself. When it hits a wall, for
example, it gets an electrical stimulation from the robot's sensors.
As it confronts similar situations, it learns by habit.

To help this process along, the researchers also use different
chemicals to reinforce or inhibit the neural pathways that light up
during particular actions.

Gordon, in fact, has multiple personalities -- several MEA "brains"
that the scientists can dock into the robot.

"It's quite funny -- you get differences between the brains," said
Warwick. "This one is a bit boisterous and active, while we know
another is not going to do what we want it to."

Mainly for ethical reasons, it is unlikely that researchers at Reading
or the handful of laboratories around the world exploring the same
terrain will be using human neurons any time soon in the same kind of
experiments.

But rats brain cells are not a bad stand-in: much of the difference
between rodent and human intelligence, speculates Warwick, could be
attributed to quantity not quality.

Rats brains are composed of about one million neurons, the specialised
cells that relay information across the brain via chemicals called
neurotransmitters.

Humans have 100 billion.

"This is a simplified version of what goes on in the human brain where
we can look -- and control -- the basic features in the way that we
want. In a human brain, you can't really do that," he said.

For colleague Ben Whalley, one of the fundamental questions facing
scientists today is how to link the activity of individual neurons
with the overwhelmingly complex behaviour of whole organisms.

"The project gives us a unique opportunity to look at something which
may exhibit complex behaviours, but still remain closely tied to the
activity of individual neurons," he said.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813192458.ud84hj9h&show_ar...

Interesting game. But, is it really anything more than that? I often
have the feeling, these days, that scientific experiments aren't
really intended to accomplish anything at all, other than attract
attention. What really are they trying to design with this particular
monstrosity, other than the outline for a research grant?

Should they throw it away then because it will be abused but possibly
developed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlTImvP8M-Q&feature=related-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Somehow, I'm not too worried about that possibility. What worries me
isn't that this is going to lead to the "Terminator". What worries me
is that it is extremely unlikely to lead to anything, and was only
proposed because it sounds a bit like the "Terminator".
Can explain why you believe it will ever, in the near or even far
future lead to anything? Using only nerve cells seems like a major
step, like inventing the transistor or something. This could be so
revolutionary that it changes everything in the information world.
 
Immortalist wrote:
A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain

Meet Gordon, probably the world's first robot controlled exclusively
by living brain tissue.
Maybe, but a rat brain interface was used to fly an F16 simulator years ago.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/11/02/brain.dish/

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5 - Our podcasts on weird stuff
 
Jan Panteltje wrote:

The article is probably true, there was a preceeding experiment:
rat cells control flight simulator:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041022104658.htm
Yes it is in some nutricient, and it seems they add chemicals as
'reward' or 'punishment' to correct action (feedback in the neural net).
Hope I got that one right.
How neurons select connections is an intriguing subject. The
impoverished (simple) configuration described in the article should
persuade the curious to consider reading Stephen Wolfram's book, _A New
Kind of Science_.
 
On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Aug 2008 10:00:10 -0500) it happened John
<nohj@droffats.ten> wrote in <18-dnVwozvoYdjvVnZ2dnUVZ_r7inZ2d@supernews.com>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:

The article is probably true, there was a preceeding experiment:
rat cells control flight simulator:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041022104658.htm
Yes it is in some nutricient, and it seems they add chemicals as
'reward' or 'punishment' to correct action (feedback in the neural net).
Hope I got that one right.

How neurons select connections is an intriguing subject. The
impoverished (simple) configuration described in the article should
persuade the curious to consider reading Stephen Wolfram's book, _A New
Kind of Science_.
Yes, it is an interesting subject, the 'new kind of science' never was
such that it changed main stream I think.

Interesting is that they write something like 'If no stimuli are present,
then the neurons just wither away'.
If we look at ourselves as [controlled by] a larger number of those neurons,
then I see some analog things.
If you lock somebody up without any input from the outside world, then
they probably wither away too (or if young never develop).
There have been cases of children growing up in the wild...
Our constant 'curiosity' to look at things, and ask 'why?', is like the net
asking for input, grabbing any input, and wanting to do something with it.
How do those neurons really pass on messages? It is all in the time domain (pulses).
Do neurons that feel pulses with the same frequency, or happening at the
same instant in time, build connections, like 'that is (sounds) like my thing?'
(During spikes that are in sync in the time domain there is a lower potential
difference between neurons, so maybe that potential difference somehow influences grows
of connections).
Perhaps something like that, and delete connections that are out of sync with your
own firing (ideas).
Of course the human brain is much more complex, and has many areas for processing many different things.
So I am only guessing.
As to 'mystic' and ,consciousness,, well 'mysticism' will have to go,
if we look to the past, where the earth was at the centre of the universe, and
the sun and stars orbiting around it, we will now have to give up on the idea
that 'we' are special, we are controlled by just a larger collection of neurons.
Consciousness is nothing special, I gave this example many times
in sci.physics, a light sensitive cell that moves a sunshade, so that when
the sun shines the shade closes, _is_ conscious of light.
The simplest sensor - activator mechanism.
We are more complex, but not much, look at how the iris closes when light
is bright, and opens in the dark.
Same neurons, at yet an other job.

I hope I did not go too far of subject -all those cross postings-, but there is a field
that definitely needs some more research.
 
On Aug 16, 12:39 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Aug 15, 7:16 am, Jerry Kraus <jkraus_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:





On Aug 15, 1:02 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Aug 14, 4:43 pm, Jerry Kraus <jkraus_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Aug 14, 12:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain

Meet Gordon, probably the world's first robot controlled exclusively
by living brain tissue.

Stitched together from cultured rat neurons, Gordon's primitive grey
matter was designed at the University of Reading by scientists who
unveiled the neuron-powered machine on Wednesday.

Their groundbreaking experiments explore the vanishing boundary
between natural and artificial intelligence, and could shed light on
the fundamental building blocks of memory and learning, one of the
lead researchers told AFP.

"The purpose is to figure out how memories are actually stored in a
biological brain," said Kevin Warwick, a professor at the University
of Reading and one of the robot's principle architects.

Observing how the nerve cells cohere into a network as they fire off
electrical impulses, he said, may also help scientists combat
neurodegenerative diseases that attack the brain such as Alzheimer's
and Parkinson's.

"If we can understand some of the basics of what is going on in our
little model brain, it could have enormous medical spinoffs," he said.

Looking a bit like the garbage-compacting hero of the blockbuster
animation "Wall-E", Gordon has a brain composed of 50,000 to 100,000
active neurons.

Once removed from rat foetuses and disentangled from each other with
an enzyme bath, the specialised nerve cells are laid out in a nutrient-
rich medium across an eight-by-eight centimetre (five-by-five inch)
array of 60 electrodes.

This "multi-electrode array" (MEA) serves as the interface between
living tissue and machine, with the brain sending electrical impulses
to drive the wheels of the robots, and receiving impulses delivered by
sensors reacting to the environment.

Because the brain is living tissue, it must be housed in a special
temperature-controlled unit -- it communicates with its "body" via a
Bluetooth radio link.

The robot has no additional control from a human or computer.

From the very start, the neurons get busy. "Within about 24 hours,
they start sending out feelers to each other and making connections,"
said Warwick.

"Within a week we get some spontaneous firings and brain-like
activity" similar to what happens in a normal rat -- or human --
brain, he added.

But without external stimulation, the brain will wither and die within
a couple of months.

"Now we are looking at how best to teach it to behave in certain
ways," explained Warwick.

To some extent, Gordon learns by itself. When it hits a wall, for
example, it gets an electrical stimulation from the robot's sensors.
As it confronts similar situations, it learns by habit.

To help this process along, the researchers also use different
chemicals to reinforce or inhibit the neural pathways that light up
during particular actions.

Gordon, in fact, has multiple personalities -- several MEA "brains"
that the scientists can dock into the robot.

"It's quite funny -- you get differences between the brains," said
Warwick. "This one is a bit boisterous and active, while we know
another is not going to do what we want it to."

Mainly for ethical reasons, it is unlikely that researchers at Reading
or the handful of laboratories around the world exploring the same
terrain will be using human neurons any time soon in the same kind of
experiments.

But rats brain cells are not a bad stand-in: much of the difference
between rodent and human intelligence, speculates Warwick, could be
attributed to quantity not quality.

Rats brains are composed of about one million neurons, the specialised
cells that relay information across the brain via chemicals called
neurotransmitters.

Humans have 100 billion.

"This is a simplified version of what goes on in the human brain where
we can look -- and control -- the basic features in the way that we
want. In a human brain, you can't really do that," he said.

For colleague Ben Whalley, one of the fundamental questions facing
scientists today is how to link the activity of individual neurons
with the overwhelmingly complex behaviour of whole organisms.

"The project gives us a unique opportunity to look at something which
may exhibit complex behaviours, but still remain closely tied to the
activity of individual neurons," he said.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813192458.ud84hj9h&show_ar...

Interesting game.  But, is it really anything more than that?  I often
have the feeling, these days, that scientific experiments aren't
really intended to accomplish anything at all, other than attract
attention.  What really are they trying to design with this particular
monstrosity, other than the outline for a research grant?

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Should they throw it away then because it will be abused but possibly
developed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlTImvP8M-Q&feature=related-Hidequoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Somehow, I'm not too worried about that possibility. What worries me
isn't that this is going to lead to the "Terminator". What worries me
is that it is extremely unlikely to lead to anything, and was only
proposed because it sounds a bit like the "Terminator".

Can explain why you believe it will ever, in the near or even far
future lead to anything? Using only nerve cells seems like a major
step, like inventing the transistor or something. This could be so
revolutionary that it changes everything in the information world.

Not really. We've hooked up electrodes to the human brain that
allowed people to crudely manipulate devices. But, we haven't
proceeded to be able to manipulate much of anything psychokinetically,
for practical purposes. Now we have a few neurons that can be used to
very crudely manipulate something. The problem isn't the general
concept. It's the crudeness of the technique. And the total abscence
of any general approach to structure the research process so as to
refine the technology. Scientists are good speculators. But,
frequently, they are very bad at moving from theory to practice.
Perhaps because the system doesn't really reward results. Neurons
produce electrochemical discharges, obviously these discharges can be
used to crudely influence an electronic system. But, to produce
something of real practical value, that may be a qualitatively
different step. Which the scientists have no way of knowing how to
proceed to. And may not which to proceed to, if they have no
incentive to do so.
 
On Aug 14, 12:59 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain

Meet Gordon, probably the world's first robot controlled exclusively
by living brain tissue.

Stitched together from cultured rat neurons, Gordon's primitive grey
matter was designed at the University of Reading by scientists who
unveiled the neuron-powered machine on Wednesday.

Rats brains are composed of about one million neurons, the specialised
cells that relay information across the brain via chemicals called
neurotransmitters.

Humans have 100 billion.

"This is a simplified version of what goes on in the human brain where
we can look -- and control -- the basic features in the way that we
want. In a human brain, you can't really do that," he said.

For colleague Ben Whalley, one of the fundamental questions facing
scientists today is how to link the activity of individual neurons
with the overwhelmingly complex behaviour of whole organisms.

"The project gives us a unique opportunity to look at something which
may exhibit complex behaviours, but still remain closely tied to the
activity of individual neurons," he said.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813192458.ud84hj9h&show_ar....
Mystics again have to fold their tents and retreat furthur and furthur
into the boundless desert of their 'unpromising' land.
 

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