the Institution of Engineers?

[Jeff]

Hi,

Im just posting this to see what experiences people have had with the
institution of engineers. Im an aussie with a master/honours/bachelors in
applied science in electronics from uni in sydney. I've always been
interested/worked in electronics in a design capacity.

A few years back I was knocked back for a position in the public service
with the reason being given that I didnt have IEAust membership. Recently I
decided to look at membership and made some enquiries.

As the degrees I've done don't appear on their list of accredited degrees,
they have offered me technologist membership, something I am not interested.
I consider myself a professional engineer in every sense of the word. As a
sidenote, with my enquiries and talks to others I strongly disagree with
some of the nonsense IEAust seems to require as part of their accreditation
process. In my experience many of the degrees they seem to be accrediting
have very poor technical levels associated with them. Some of their
graduates have almost no design skills.

Getting back on track I wonder what are peoples experiences with IEAust
accreditation of non-IEAust science and technology degrees majoring in
electronics? Is/would anyone be interested in joining some sort of
class-action with a view to changing their policy on only accrediting on the
basis of undergraduate degrees only?

Jim

PS: With 6 years of classroom university electronics am I asking for too
much to be considered a graduate member?

 

[The real Andy]

<snip>

Jeff, i hate to be honest, but the IEAust is a complete toss. They are aimed
at consulting engineers and engineering management. When I was a first year
uni student, I had one of their free memberships. After having a sniff off
their corporate wank, i quickly told them to get fucked. In fact it is the
IEAust that forces the uni's into doing less practical and more toss
management studies. They are to stupid to realise that not everyone wants to
be a manager or a consultant.

Anyway, if a job requires you to be a member of IEAust then its probable not
worth having, unless you like paper shuffling. Check out their ten
commandments, or whatever they call them. I pissed myself laughing when i
read it.

Andy

PS, I agree with your comment about graduates. Occasionally you will find an
exception, but very rarely.

 

[Rob Judd]

Jeff wrote:

Hi,

Im just posting this to see what experiences people have had with the
institution of engineers. Im an aussie with a master/honours/bachelors in
applied science in electronics from uni in sydney. I've always been
interested/worked in electronics in a design capacity.

A few years back I was knocked back for a position in the public service
with the reason being given that I didnt have IEAust membership. Recently I
decided to look at membership and made some enquiries.

As the degrees I've done don't appear on their list of accredited degrees,
they have offered me technologist membership, something I am not interested.
I consider myself a professional engineer in every sense of the word. As a
sidenote, with my enquiries and talks to others I strongly disagree with
some of the nonsense IEAust seems to require as part of their accreditation
process. In my experience many of the degrees they seem to be accrediting
have very poor technical levels associated with them. Some of their
graduates have almost no design skills.

Getting back on track I wonder what are peoples experiences with IEAust
accreditation of non-IEAust science and technology degrees majoring in
electronics? Is/would anyone be interested in joining some sort of
class-action with a view to changing their policy on only accrediting on the
basis of undergraduate degrees only?

Jim

PS: With 6 years of classroom university electronics am I asking for too
much to be considered a graduate member?

Jim (or Jeff, whatever),

You seem to have missed the entire point of the class system. Since you
are a designer, and thus work with your hands to some degree, you don't
fit into the Management Class and thus will never be allowed to be a
member of any group which would give you access to a government job. The
prerequisites of which are essentially that one must be solely an
administrator, in total agreeement with the conservative status quo, and
incapable of independent thought.

Thank your lucky stars, mate, and consider the plight of the Technician
Class below you. It doesn't matter a toss how long I've been regarded as
a competent engineer, I can never use the title.

Rob
"I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have _me_ for a
member ...", Groucho Marx

 

[Nemo]

Plain and simple:

If you are a member with formal qualifications, it is of no use unless it is
a job pre-requisite (in certain branches of engineering, in some public
service jobs and with some corporate second fiddlers). In most cases the
criteria is the eligibility to be a member. If you are not a member it is an
excuse for disqualification. As long as you fund IEAust guys/mates to pay
their bills and their trips/seminar parties through your membership fee, you
will be considered as a professional engineer.

The only real benefit is that you will be eligible for CBA Gold Visa Card
and the Gold Privilege Program for around $300/year (tax deductible).

Summary - it sucks, at least that's my experience.


"Jeff" <noflames@flame.org> wrote in message
news:3f73e212_1@news.iprimus.com.au...

Hi,

Im just posting this to see what experiences people have had with the
institution of engineers. Im an aussie with a master/honours/bachelors in
applied science in electronics from uni in sydney. I've always been
interested/worked in electronics in a design capacity.

A few years back I was knocked back for a position in the public service
with the reason being given that I didnt have IEAust membership. Recently
I
decided to look at membership and made some enquiries.

As the degrees I've done don't appear on their list of accredited degrees,
they have offered me technologist membership, something I am not
interested.
I consider myself a professional engineer in every sense of the word. As a
sidenote, with my enquiries and talks to others I strongly disagree with
some of the nonsense IEAust seems to require as part of their
accreditation
process. In my experience many of the degrees they seem to be accrediting
have very poor technical levels associated with them. Some of their
graduates have almost no design skills.

Getting back on track I wonder what are peoples experiences with IEAust
accreditation of non-IEAust science and technology degrees majoring in
electronics? Is/would anyone be interested in joining some sort of
class-action with a view to changing their policy on only accrediting on
the
basis of undergraduate degrees only?

Jim

PS: With 6 years of classroom university electronics am I asking for too
much to be considered a graduate member?

 

[The real Andy]

"Nemo" <guest@unknown.com> wrote in message
news:bl13q7$phs$1@merki.connect.com.au...

The only real benefit is that you will be eligible for CBA Gold Visa Card
and the Gold Privilege Program for around $300/year (tax deductible).

Hah, really? I had one of these. I would like to know how it is a benifit,
aside from the excessive costs. Mind you, you can get a mighty fine credit
limit with one.

 

[CyBorg 0091]

You just described how the government runs.

I have 9 years of Professional lawn mower operator training
I can't work on a golf course because of the same principles

I agree,tell them to get fucked
--
Dr. shrub
Professional Lawn Mower Operator

"The real Andy" <ihatehifitrolls@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:3f740a06$0$28123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

snip

Jeff, i hate to be honest, but the IEAust is a complete toss. They are
aimed
at consulting engineers and engineering management. When I was a first
year
uni student, I had one of their free memberships. After having a sniff off
their corporate wank, i quickly told them to get fucked. In fact it is the
IEAust that forces the uni's into doing less practical and more toss
management studies. They are to stupid to realise that not everyone wants
to
be a manager or a consultant.

Anyway, if a job requires you to be a member of IEAust then its probable
not
worth having, unless you like paper shuffling. Check out their ten
commandments, or whatever they call them. I pissed myself laughing when i
read it.

Andy

PS, I agree with your comment about graduates. Occasionally you will find
an
exception, but very rarely.

 

[Nemo]

As a matter of consolation, I tried to identify some sort of benefit from
the 'well managed deceit' of the value of membership.

"The real Andy" <ihatehifitrolls@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:3f741f14$0$18592$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

"Nemo" <guest@unknown.com> wrote in message
news:bl13q7$phs$1@merki.connect.com.au...

The only real benefit is that you will be eligible for CBA Gold Visa
Card
and the Gold Privilege Program for around $300/year (tax deductible).


Hah, really? I had one of these. I would like to know how it is a benifit,
aside from the excessive costs. Mind you, you can get a mighty fine credit
limit with one.

 

[James]

Im a grad member of it, mainly because a lot of the job ads either
require it or eligibility for it, in my situation its easier just to
have it. I find they have some interesting technical presentations and
its good to meet other senior engineers around the place.

kind of feel for the techies though, they seem to be getting boxed in
from all sides at the moment. IEAUST making it hard, then the
electrical safety offices pretty much restricting everything
electrical at all to electricians. Bloke at the safety office I spoke
to seemed quite proud of how hard he was making it for technicians to
do their job, (trade unions for you).

I agree with the comments about the lack of technical content at uni
too, there needs to be a lot more. Im not sure exactly where it would
fit though, the degree was pretty full and not sure what I'd dump from
it. The way its structured at the moment seems to be that students get
their prac experience from the 12 weeks vocation work. Worked for me,
I twice had jobs with a heap of hand on practical work, one in high
voltage power and the other in power electronics and motors.
Unfortunately a lot of my class mates didn't get jobs where they had
hands on work and they missed out on that.

These days life is full of endoresemtns and licences and stuff, better
get used to it. You need a drivers license to drive end of story, no
matter how good you can drive. All industries seem to have
associations which seem to be becomming compulsary if you want to work
in that industry now.

anyway, thats my half asleep opinion, I tend to think that stuff if a
bit of a wank too, but it can make life easier by going along with it.

cheers
James

 

[Mike Harding]

On 26 Sep 2003 18:18:40 -0700, j.l@octa4.net.au (James) wrote:

anyway, thats my half asleep opinion, I tend to think that stuff if a
bit of a wank too, but it can make life easier by going along with it.

And it's attitudes like that which are rapidly turning this country
into an over governed, full of petty rules, need a permit for
anything land of wimps.

Mike Harding

 

[Rob Judd]

Yay Mike! The more of your posts I read, the more I like you.


Mike Harding wrote:

On 26 Sep 2003 18:18:40 -0700, j.l@octa4.net.au (James) wrote:

anyway, thats my half asleep opinion, I tend to think that stuff if a
bit of a wank too, but it can make life easier by going along with it.

And it's attitudes like that which are rapidly turning this country
into an over governed, full of petty rules, need a permit for
anything land of wimps.

Mike Harding

 

[Unbeliever]

Join the freemasons,
Much less "clubby", more relevant, a better gateway to employment and
you get one of those natty little cases with a cute apron in it! Better
value all round.

Alf
alfkatz@remove.the.obvious.ieee.org




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 24/09/2003

 

[Jeff]

Thanks James, I understand why you are a member of the IEAust and I must
admit its for much the same ideas that I tried to become a member... that is
it was easier to have it than not.

but... I feel you missed the important point... and its about justice.
Justice and fairness is an important thing in any endeavour... you dont have
it and aussies get the shits real quick. You continue to not have it and
people look for ways around it so they can get it.

When I made my post I was talking with regard to highly qualified university
graduates who had degrees in electronics however did not have eligibility of
graduate membership to IEAust. This is a situation that has to change... no
ifs or buts. As far as I'm concerned I would like to see the IREE return to
being the sole accreditation authority of electronics engineering in this
country. It seems to me that the experiment of its merging with IEAust has
been a failure. Certainly up until its merger I would have been eligable for
full membership.

From my dealings with them I feel they dont understand electronics
engineering, never have and likely never will.

Its interesting from the points you made about electrician licencing that
infact you are in the same boat as the technicians. That is you are unable
to do elementary electrical work without an appropriate electricians
licence, even if you are a power engineer. Regarding the experience you have
had in high voltage and power electronics I would just like to point out
that in many ways this engineering is quite removed from electronics. Just
try getting 12 weeks of really practical hands on experience in VHDL, VLSI
design, microwave transmission or RF circuit design.. quite a harder
prospect I would suggest. And its interesting to note that such design
skills don't feature much in most BEng degree courses, however they are a
mainstay of the industry. In short if you dont educate graduates in these
areas you dont really have competant electronics engineers. In fact I would
go so far as to suggest that it would be quite rare for a present 4 year
graduate to even correctly design a $2 AM/FM transistor radio from crazy
clarks.

The IEAust however has done its best to strip alot of that skill from the
degrees. It may be ok in the civil, mechanical etc fields where the tools
are similar and there is less diversity in design skills. It doesnt work in
electronics and never will. As a result what we see coming out of unis is
really a bunch of systems engineers, in an ok position for alot of the
planning positions in the public service. In truth of course there are
occasionally some good design graduates, however I feel that they are most
likely those rare kids who built radios and kit projects when they were
young and most likely had a familiarity with it before they entered the uni
system, coupled with a passion. Some kid (most BEng students) who decides on
the eve of finishing high school that they might like to do electronics
probably wont have it even if they are a good student, simply because the
degree doesnt teach it.

So how do you change the BEng degree structure? Its pretty simple really....
you chuck the 2 years of principles + 2years of specialism model out the
window... along with the IEAust 15% management requirement. In reality this
model effectively gives you a 2 year course, something little different to
the Associate Diploma+ a bit of advanced maths. And you get back to a model
which specialises from the get go. As an example consider that you were
looking to hire an engineer in a computer engineering or high speed digital
design position. Then consider a 3 year Bachelor of digital systems degree
from Monash http://www.monash.edu.au/pubs/handbooks/undergrad/ug0336.htm

Then compare this degree to your favourite Beng in electronics or computer
systems. Then think about competancies. Also remember this degree could
never exist if it tried to meet IEAust requirements.

Remembering that this degree is 3 years against a 4 year IEAust one, I'd
probably prefer the 3 year one simply from an ability standpoint. If you
agree with me then there is a serious problem with IEAust.

Also if you agree with me that the 3 year one I mentioned is a good one
compared to the BEng and that its graduates have abilities perhaps above and
beyond some BEng degrees, note that when such a graduate approaches the
IEAust for membership they will be knocked back, and a less capable one will
be admitted. Also think that when that 3 year graduate then enrolls for an
honours degree and then a masters... they will still be knocked back. Still
think its fair or just? I was in exactly this position a few years ago and
the response I got from IEAust was simply to enrol in a BEng and seek
advanced standing. What nonsense. In addition when I asked if I could apply
for entry based on obtaining reciprocal IEE (UK) membership they refused to
accept it saying that would be 'double dipping'.

I dont have a legal degree or anything of that nature however I'd love to
see someone sue the IEAust for unfair discrimination .....

Jim

 

[David L. Jones]

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:38:00 +1000, "Jeff" <noflames@flame.org> wrote:

Its interesting from the points you made about electrician licencing that
infact you are in the same boat as the technicians. That is you are unable
to do elementary electrical work without an appropriate electricians
licence, even if you are a power engineer. Regarding the experience you have
had in high voltage and power electronics I would just like to point out
that in many ways this engineering is quite removed from electronics. Just
try getting 12 weeks of really practical hands on experience in VHDL, VLSI
design, microwave transmission or RF circuit design.. quite a harder
prospect I would suggest. And its interesting to note that such design
skills don't feature much in most BEng degree courses, however they are a
mainstay of the industry. In short if you dont educate graduates in these
areas you dont really have competant electronics engineers. In fact I would
go so far as to suggest that it would be quite rare for a present 4 year
graduate to even correctly design a $2 AM/FM transistor radio from crazy
clarks.

I disagree. Even a 555 is too advanced for most!
They are great at triple integrals though...

The IEAust however has done its best to strip alot of that skill from the
degrees. It may be ok in the civil, mechanical etc fields where the tools
are similar and there is less diversity in design skills. It doesnt work in
electronics and never will. As a result what we see coming out of unis is
really a bunch of systems engineers, in an ok position for alot of the
planning positions in the public service. In truth of course there are
occasionally some good design graduates, however I feel that they are most
likely those rare kids who built radios and kit projects when they were
young and most likely had a familiarity with it before they entered the uni
system, coupled with a passion.

That's the way its always been, only the ratio these days is much,
much smaller, and gets smaller every year.

Some kid (most BEng students) who decides on
the eve of finishing high school that they might like to do electronics
probably wont have it even if they are a good student, simply because the
degree doesnt teach it.

Yep, and that's why most of them won't ever get a job in electronics
design, nor do they want to mostly.

Dave
---------------------------
(remove the "_" from my email address to reply)

 

[Alan]

Not in the same class, but just as much beurocracy. Many years ago now did
the E&C cert with Telecom Aust. That and Telecom internal training gave me
pretty reasonable grounding in electrical theory.
When they deregulated the business and made it possible for electricians to
do a couple of weeks training and sit an exam to get a telecommunications
cabling licence, I thought I might expand my horizons. I thought this should
be easy find a course to learn the necessary wiring regs, sit an exam get
licence. Nope. Made enquires. Told if I wanted to get my electricians
licence I would have to do an apprentice ship. Stuff that. I was hardly
going to give up a good paying job to go back to be apprentice.
That was a few years ago now, and Telstra doesn't train technicians now
either.
Things change in time, but not always for the better.

"Mike Harding" <mike_harding1@nixspamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:52s9nv8usugugr4cidga1e3c4048ioagr0@4ax.com...

On 26 Sep 2003 18:18:40 -0700, j.l@octa4.net.au (James) wrote:

anyway, thats my half asleep opinion, I tend to think that stuff if a
bit of a wank too, but it can make life easier by going along with it.

And it's attitudes like that which are rapidly turning this country
into an over governed, full of petty rules, need a permit for
anything land of wimps.

Mike Harding

 

[Rob Judd]

Jeff wrote:

Thanks James, I understand why you are a member of the IEAust and I must
admit its for much the same ideas that I tried to become a member... that is
it was easier to have it than not.

but... I feel you missed the important point... and its about justice.
Justice and fairness is an important thing in any endeavour... you dont have
it and aussies get the shits real quick. You continue to not have it and
people look for ways around it so they can get it.

When I made my post I was talking with regard to highly qualified university
graduates who had degrees in electronics however did not have eligibility of
graduate membership to IEAust. This is a situation that has to change... no
ifs or buts. As far as I'm concerned I would like to see the IREE return to
being the sole accreditation authority of electronics engineering in this
country. It seems to me that the experiment of its merging with IEAust has
been a failure. Certainly up until its merger I would have been eligable for
full membership.

From my dealings with them I feel they dont understand electronics
engineering, never have and likely never will.

Its interesting from the points you made about electrician licencing that
infact you are in the same boat as the technicians. That is you are unable
to do elementary electrical work without an appropriate electricians
licence, even if you are a power engineer. Regarding the experience you have
had in high voltage and power electronics I would just like to point out
that in many ways this engineering is quite removed from electronics. Just
try getting 12 weeks of really practical hands on experience in VHDL, VLSI
design, microwave transmission or RF circuit design.. quite a harder
prospect I would suggest. And its interesting to note that such design
skills don't feature much in most BEng degree courses, however they are a
mainstay of the industry. In short if you dont educate graduates in these
areas you dont really have competant electronics engineers. In fact I would
go so far as to suggest that it would be quite rare for a present 4 year
graduate to even correctly design a $2 AM/FM transistor radio from crazy
clarks.

The IEAust however has done its best to strip alot of that skill from the
degrees. It may be ok in the civil, mechanical etc fields where the tools
are similar and there is less diversity in design skills. It doesnt work in
electronics and never will. As a result what we see coming out of unis is
really a bunch of systems engineers, in an ok position for alot of the
planning positions in the public service. In truth of course there are
occasionally some good design graduates, however I feel that they are most
likely those rare kids who built radios and kit projects when they were
young and most likely had a familiarity with it before they entered the uni
system, coupled with a passion. Some kid (most BEng students) who decides on
the eve of finishing high school that they might like to do electronics
probably wont have it even if they are a good student, simply because the
degree doesnt teach it.

So how do you change the BEng degree structure? Its pretty simple really....
you chuck the 2 years of principles + 2years of specialism model out the
window... along with the IEAust 15% management requirement. In reality this
model effectively gives you a 2 year course, something little different to
the Associate Diploma+ a bit of advanced maths. And you get back to a model
which specialises from the get go. As an example consider that you were
looking to hire an engineer in a computer engineering or high speed digital
design position. Then consider a 3 year Bachelor of digital systems degree
from Monash http://www.monash.edu.au/pubs/handbooks/undergrad/ug0336.htm

Then compare this degree to your favourite Beng in electronics or computer
systems. Then think about competancies. Also remember this degree could
never exist if it tried to meet IEAust requirements.

Remembering that this degree is 3 years against a 4 year IEAust one, I'd
probably prefer the 3 year one simply from an ability standpoint. If you
agree with me then there is a serious problem with IEAust.

Also if you agree with me that the 3 year one I mentioned is a good one
compared to the BEng and that its graduates have abilities perhaps above and
beyond some BEng degrees, note that when such a graduate approaches the
IEAust for membership they will be knocked back, and a less capable one will
be admitted. Also think that when that 3 year graduate then enrolls for an
honours degree and then a masters... they will still be knocked back. Still
think its fair or just? I was in exactly this position a few years ago and
the response I got from IEAust was simply to enrol in a BEng and seek
advanced standing. What nonsense. In addition when I asked if I could apply
for entry based on obtaining reciprocal IEE (UK) membership they refused to
accept it saying that would be 'double dipping'.

I dont have a legal degree or anything of that nature however I'd love to
see someone sue the IEAust for unfair discrimination .....

Jim

Poor baby. Perhaps you missed the point of my previous message, so I'll
be blunt. Most of the real work - including design and basic research -
is done by talanted amateurs and technicians with lengthy experience.
They don't get credit, they're not paid well for it and they are always
the first to be fired when the problems are solved. Compare that to your
inability to join the Old Boys' Club of your choice and you look like a
whining prat.

Piss off, and take your parchment with you. Anyone who would _want_ to
join the PS is already beyond help anyhow.

Rob

 

[Nemo]

'Sounds like a IEAust career advise.

This is expected when people are not educated enough to understand what
qualified engineers do in a country where stupid people try to do clever
things in the name of experience appreciated by their mates. Experience
alone is like a multistoryed structure without a proven foundation. On the
other hand a fresh graduate may require around five years to mature
professionally. Corporate bean counters cannot wait that long to let the
graduates get expensive and ripe enough to be dumped.

'Just waiting for that day when qualified doctors will be challenged by
paramedics, ignorant of specific roles within the medical profession, as a
parallel.

No wonder why the politicians look for overseas skilled migrants to make
Australia a 'clever country'.


"Rob Judd" <judd@ob-wan.com> wrote in message
news:3F777C0D.3366136E@ob-wan.com...

Jeff wrote:

Thanks James, I understand why you are a member of the IEAust and I must
admit its for much the same ideas that I tried to become a member...
that is
it was easier to have it than not.

but... I feel you missed the important point... and its about justice.
Justice and fairness is an important thing in any endeavour... you dont
have
it and aussies get the shits real quick. You continue to not have it and
people look for ways around it so they can get it.

When I made my post I was talking with regard to highly qualified
university
graduates who had degrees in electronics however did not have
eligibility of
graduate membership to IEAust. This is a situation that has to change...
no
ifs or buts. As far as I'm concerned I would like to see the IREE return
to
being the sole accreditation authority of electronics engineering in
this
country. It seems to me that the experiment of its merging with IEAust
has
been a failure. Certainly up until its merger I would have been eligable
for
full membership.

From my dealings with them I feel they dont understand electronics
engineering, never have and likely never will.

Its interesting from the points you made about electrician licencing
that
infact you are in the same boat as the technicians. That is you are
unable
to do elementary electrical work without an appropriate electricians
licence, even if you are a power engineer. Regarding the experience you
have
had in high voltage and power electronics I would just like to point out
that in many ways this engineering is quite removed from electronics.
Just
try getting 12 weeks of really practical hands on experience in VHDL,
VLSI
design, microwave transmission or RF circuit design.. quite a harder
prospect I would suggest. And its interesting to note that such design
skills don't feature much in most BEng degree courses, however they are
a
mainstay of the industry. In short if you dont educate graduates in
these
areas you dont really have competant electronics engineers. In fact I
would
go so far as to suggest that it would be quite rare for a present 4 year
graduate to even correctly design a $2 AM/FM transistor radio from crazy
clarks.

The IEAust however has done its best to strip alot of that skill from
the
degrees. It may be ok in the civil, mechanical etc fields where the
tools
are similar and there is less diversity in design skills. It doesnt work
in
electronics and never will. As a result what we see coming out of unis
is
really a bunch of systems engineers, in an ok position for alot of the
planning positions in the public service. In truth of course there are
occasionally some good design graduates, however I feel that they are
most
likely those rare kids who built radios and kit projects when they were
young and most likely had a familiarity with it before they entered the
uni
system, coupled with a passion. Some kid (most BEng students) who
decides on
the eve of finishing high school that they might like to do electronics
probably wont have it even if they are a good student, simply because
the
degree doesnt teach it.

So how do you change the BEng degree structure? Its pretty simple
really....
you chuck the 2 years of principles + 2years of specialism model out the
window... along with the IEAust 15% management requirement. In reality
this
model effectively gives you a 2 year course, something little different
to
the Associate Diploma+ a bit of advanced maths. And you get back to a
model
which specialises from the get go. As an example consider that you were
looking to hire an engineer in a computer engineering or high speed
digital
design position. Then consider a 3 year Bachelor of digital systems
degree
from Monash http://www.monash.edu.au/pubs/handbooks/undergrad/ug0336.htm

Then compare this degree to your favourite Beng in electronics or
computer
systems. Then think about competancies. Also remember this degree could
never exist if it tried to meet IEAust requirements.

Remembering that this degree is 3 years against a 4 year IEAust one, I'd
probably prefer the 3 year one simply from an ability standpoint. If you
agree with me then there is a serious problem with IEAust.

Also if you agree with me that the 3 year one I mentioned is a good one
compared to the BEng and that its graduates have abilities perhaps above
and
beyond some BEng degrees, note that when such a graduate approaches the
IEAust for membership they will be knocked back, and a less capable one
will
be admitted. Also think that when that 3 year graduate then enrolls for
an
honours degree and then a masters... they will still be knocked back.
Still
think its fair or just? I was in exactly this position a few years ago
and
the response I got from IEAust was simply to enrol in a BEng and seek
advanced standing. What nonsense. In addition when I asked if I could
apply
for entry based on obtaining reciprocal IEE (UK) membership they refused
to
accept it saying that would be 'double dipping'.

I dont have a legal degree or anything of that nature however I'd love
to
see someone sue the IEAust for unfair discrimination .....

Jim

Poor baby. Perhaps you missed the point of my previous message, so I'll
be blunt. Most of the real work - including design and basic research -
is done by talanted amateurs and technicians with lengthy experience.
They don't get credit, they're not paid well for it and they are always
the first to be fired when the problems are solved. Compare that to your
inability to join the Old Boys' Club of your choice and you look like a
whining prat.

Piss off, and take your parchment with you. Anyone who would _want_ to
join the PS is already beyond help anyhow.

Rob

 

[Terry Collins]

Nemo wrote:

....snip.....

'Just waiting for that day when qualified doctors will be challenged by
paramedics, ignorant of specific roles within the medical profession, as a
parallel.

Thank god for paramedics who know what they are doing and don't make
decisions on the basis of the last "inducement" offered to them by a
drug company. "Inducements" like weekend seminars!

Professional electronics/computer engineering in this country went
downhill/off shore in the 70's.

 

[Rob]

"Rob Judd" <judd@ob-wan.com> wrote in message
news:3F740DBD.F09AC775@ob-wan.com...

Jim (or Jeff, whatever),

You seem to have missed the entire point of the class system. Since you
are a designer, and thus work with your hands to some degree, you don't
fit into the Management Class and thus will never be allowed to be a
member of any group which would give you access to a government job. The
prerequisites of which are essentially that one must be solely an
administrator, in total agreeement with the conservative status quo, and
incapable of independent thought.

Thank your lucky stars, mate, and consider the plight of the Technician
Class below you. It doesn't matter a toss how long I've been regarded as
a competent engineer, I can never use the title.

Rob
"I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have _me_ for a
member ...", Groucho Marx

I agree totally Rob, how many times have you seen a good job you have been
interested in (but are ineligible for due to the lack of a bit of paper) go
to a recent graduate engineer who really has no idea on the practicalities
of what they are tasked with.

I have worked with a few great graduates, but I reckon they amount to about
5% of what's around. My experience is that the guys that perpetuate this
kind of attitude are not good engineers. The guys I have worked with who
were open to letting people work to their level of ability / experience have
generally been quite talented engineers as well as good managers.

Rob II

PS - Techs can solder and spell as well - shields up! :~))

 

[Rob Judd]

Rob wrote:

"Rob Judd" <judd@ob-wan.com> wrote in message
news:3F740DBD.F09AC775@ob-wan.com...

Jim (or Jeff, whatever),

You seem to have missed the entire point of the class system. Since you
are a designer, and thus work with your hands to some degree, you don't
fit into the Management Class and thus will never be allowed to be a
member of any group which would give you access to a government job. The
prerequisites of which are essentially that one must be solely an
administrator, in total agreeement with the conservative status quo, and
incapable of independent thought.

Thank your lucky stars, mate, and consider the plight of the Technician
Class below you. It doesn't matter a toss how long I've been regarded as
a competent engineer, I can never use the title.

Rob
"I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have _me_ for a
member ...", Groucho Marx

I agree totally Rob, how many times have you seen a good job you have been
interested in (but are ineligible for due to the lack of a bit of paper) go
to a recent graduate engineer who really has no idea on the practicalities
of what they are tasked with.

Every time.

I have worked with a few great graduates, but I reckon they amount to about
5% of what's around. My experience is that the guys that perpetuate this
kind of attitude are not good engineers. The guys I have worked with who
were open to letting people work to their level of ability / experience have
generally been quite talented engineers as well as good managers.

Technical merit evidently has nothing to do with who gets the better
jobs. If I told you the most I've ever earned in a single full tax year
you'd be horrified. These dweebs start on more than my top rate.

When I did my training there *were* no Electronics degree courses, and
damned if I was going to sit through 3 1/2 years of electrical
distribution and motors to get to what I was really interested in doing.
But I've since worked with microwave, lasers, computers, powerline
carrier, video distribution ... you name it, I've done it.

Bah. To hell with the electronics industry and all who sail in her.

Rob - VK3XVK

 

[geo]

"David L. Jones" <tronnort_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3f76e0a6.21809523@News.CIS.DFN.DE...

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:38:00 +1000, "Jeff" <noflames@flame.org> wrote:
Its interesting from the points you made about electrician licencing that
infact you are in the same boat as the technicians. That is you are
unable
to do elementary electrical work without an appropriate electricians
licence, even if you are a power engineer. Regarding the experience you
have
had in high voltage and power electronics I would just like to point out
that in many ways this engineering is quite removed from electronics.
Just
try getting 12 weeks of really practical hands on experience in VHDL,
VLSI
design, microwave transmission or RF circuit design.. quite a harder
prospect I would suggest. And its interesting to note that such design
skills don't feature much in most BEng degree courses, however they are a
mainstay of the industry. In short if you dont educate graduates in these
areas you dont really have competant electronics engineers. In fact I
would
go so far as to suggest that it would be quite rare for a present 4 year
graduate to even correctly design a $2 AM/FM transistor radio from crazy
clarks.

I disagree. Even a 555 is too advanced for most!
They are great at triple integrals though...

The IEAust however has done its best to strip alot of that skill from the
degrees. It may be ok in the civil, mechanical etc fields where the tools
are similar and there is less diversity in design skills. It doesnt work
in
electronics and never will. As a result what we see coming out of unis is
really a bunch of systems engineers, in an ok position for alot of the
planning positions in the public service. In truth of course there are
occasionally some good design graduates, however I feel that they are
most
likely those rare kids who built radios and kit projects when they were
young and most likely had a familiarity with it before they entered the
uni
system, coupled with a passion.

That's the way its always been, only the ratio these days is much,
much smaller, and gets smaller every year.

Some kid (most BEng students) who decides on
the eve of finishing high school that they might like to do electronics
probably wont have it even if they are a good student, simply because the
degree doesnt teach it.

Yep, and that's why most of them won't ever get a job in electronics
design, nor do they want to mostly.

Dave
---------------------------
(remove the "_" from my email address to reply)

I graduated from UQ last year so I thought I would add my 2c.

First of all I believe there are many reasons why there aren't many
electrical engineers who can't do electronic design - 1. electronics is a
specialisation in a degree that has many other specialisations i.e. power
systems, control, communication systems, signal and image processing etc.
and therefore being an "electrical engineer" doesn't necceserily mean you
can design electronics. 2. Not many people choose to do the advanced
electronic design subjects because they don't want to do that kind of hands
on design. 3. Half the people who do it aren't good at it anyway cause it's
hard and requires creativity.

My uni definitely did cater for students who (like me) wanted to do
electronics design. Consider some of the subjects I did:
Robotics - Design a robot arm
Team Project I - Design a device to count people coming in and out of a room
using IR
Team Project II - Design a reminder keyring, programmable via a computer
screen
Electronic Circuits - Design an FM transmitter, design an audio amplifier.
Digital Systems Design I - Design various digital circuits
Digital Systems Design II - Design in VHDL for FPGAs, Design an ASIC from
same VHDL.
Computer Systems Design Project - Design design design

and there are many more 'design' subjects.

As far as IEAust goes, I don't think I will be joining. I see no advantage
to being a member at the moment.

Ross