The fires.

[ian field]

RIP an aunt and a cousin.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

ian field wrote:

RIP an aunt and a cousin.

I offer my condolences, Ian.


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[ian field]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:f8GdnT6Z343CdAzUnZ2dnUVZ_rvinZ2d@earthlink.com...

ian field wrote:

RIP an aunt and a cousin.


I offer my condolences, Ian.

Thanks.

Aunt Irma emigrated when I was very young and only visited England rarely,
I've never met my cousin.

Irma was my mothers closest sister so she is very upset.

 

[Don McKenzie]

ian field wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:f8GdnT6Z343CdAzUnZ2dnUVZ_rvinZ2d@earthlink.com...
ian field wrote:
RIP an aunt and a cousin.

I offer my condolences, Ian.


Thanks.

Aunt Irma emigrated when I was very young and only visited England rarely,
I've never met my cousin.

Irma was my mothers closest sister so she is very upset.

My condolences also Ian,

We went through the strain of trying to find out about a nephew and his
family in Upper Plenty, about half way between Kilmore and King Lake. We
spent Christmas day with them.

We found they were at a hall oval, surrounded by fire trucks Sunday
morning. They have lost their house, but at least they are still alive.

Now living with a sister at Baccush Marsh.

My eldest daughter and her family, was living in Strathewen until they
recently returned to Darwin. Most people in the road (Bowden Spur Road)
lost their homes and lives.

I think almost everyone in Australia will find some sort of personal
connection to this tragedy.

Don...



--
Don McKenzie

Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email
No More Damn Spam: http://www.wizard-of-oz.com

 

[ian field]

"Don McKenzie" <5V@2.5A> wrote in message
news:6ve9epFjl0fhU1@mid.individual.net...

ian field wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:f8GdnT6Z343CdAzUnZ2dnUVZ_rvinZ2d@earthlink.com...
ian field wrote:
RIP an aunt and a cousin.

I offer my condolences, Ian.


Thanks.

Aunt Irma emigrated when I was very young and only visited England
rarely, I've never met my cousin.

Irma was my mothers closest sister so she is very upset.

My condolences also Ian,

We went through the strain of trying to find out about a nephew and his
family in Upper Plenty, about half way between Kilmore and King Lake. We
spent Christmas day with them.

We found they were at a hall oval, surrounded by fire trucks Sunday
morning. They have lost their house, but at least they are still alive.

Now living with a sister at Baccush Marsh.

My eldest daughter and her family, was living in Strathewen until they
recently returned to Darwin. Most people in the road (Bowden Spur Road)
lost their homes and lives.

I think almost everyone in Australia will find some sort of personal
connection to this tragedy.

Don...

There was another UK family on the news today who've been touched by the
tragedy, I'm sure the same will be true for many other places in the world
too.

My cousin wasn't actually killed by the fire itself, he collapsed with a
heart attack as he arrived at my aunt's property to help.

 

[L.A.T.]

How little we can say.
How little we can do.
Now is the time to dig deep, and say silently with our pockets what we have
difficulty saying out loud.

redcross.org.au
salvos.org.au

 

[Bob Parker]

On 11/02/2009 10:34 L.A.T. wrote:

How little we can say.
How little we can do.
Now is the time to dig deep, and say silently with our pockets what we have
difficulty saying out loud.

redcross.org.au
salvos.org.au

Ian, you have my deepest sympathy. This horrific event has deeply
affected everyone directly and indirectly.

Coles stores in Australia will be donating their profits for next
Friday to the Red Cross bushfire appeal, see
http://www.coles.com.au/about/community/bushfire_appeal/?WT.mc_id=COLES_BushFireAppeal

 

[ian field]

"Bob Parker" <bobp.deletethis@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:49923a6c$0$23948$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...

On 11/02/2009 10:34 L.A.T. wrote:
How little we can say.
How little we can do.
Now is the time to dig deep, and say silently with our pockets what we
have difficulty saying out loud.

redcross.org.au
salvos.org.au

Ian, you have my deepest sympathy. This horrific event has deeply
affected everyone directly and indirectly.

Thanks, its a very sad time for friends and relatives of those who've died
and those who've lost everything..

Does anyone know why so many people were overwhelmed in their houses?

 

[John G.]

"ian field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:EmCkl.19192$Ci3.7181@newsfe17.ams2...

"Bob Parker" <bobp.deletethis@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:49923a6c$0$23948$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
On 11/02/2009 10:34 L.A.T. wrote:
How little we can say.
How little we can do.
Now is the time to dig deep, and say silently with our pockets what we
have difficulty saying out loud.

redcross.org.au
salvos.org.au

Ian, you have my deepest sympathy. This horrific event has deeply
affected everyone directly and indirectly.


Thanks, its a very sad time for friends and relatives of those who've died
and those who've lost everything..

Does anyone know why so many people were overwhelmed in their houses?
My sypathy to you and your family Ian.

The temp had been over 40c (104F) for some days and it has been VeryVERY dry
for several years.
The wind got up and the travelling fire front was irresistable,
The best laid fire plans failed for many because the speed was so high.

One family survived by going to the cellar (Rare in Australia) closing the
Steel door at the top of the stairs, watched the door glo red in parts then
drank some of the wine in the cellar and waited till they thought it might
be safe.

The current death toll is 181. I think with more than 1000 homes and other
buildings destroyed.

For some heart rending pictures look here.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/gallery/0,22010,5037339-5006020,00.html

In some places the trees are still green but the houses are gone and in lots
of places isolated objects survived unscathed for no apparent reason.

John G.

 

[Don McKenzie]

John G. wrote:

For some heart rending pictures look here.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/gallery/0,22010,5037339-5006020,00.html

In some places the trees are still green but the houses are gone and in lots
of places isolated objects survived unscathed for no apparent reason.

John G.

I was a CFA member 45 years ago, but I never saw anything like this of
course.

this is a link to the koala video:
http://tinyurl.com/awcl36

Don...


--
Don McKenzie

Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email
No More Damn Spam: http://www.wizard-of-oz.com

http://www.dontronics-shop.com/super4-usb-relay-module.html

 

[terryc]

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:43:24 +0000, ian field wrote:

Does anyone know why so many people were overwhelmed in their houses?

Unfortunately, I believe it was lack of adequate prior preparation. We
love to live in bushland and too many of us take the risk they we will
never have to deal with a bushfire.

If you look at the surviving houses, many of them show no adaption and/or
accessories for dealing with bushfires.

Things such as radiant heat shelds across windows, permanently fitted roof
sprinkler systems, fire houses diesel powered water pumps, proper fire
hoses.

It is clear that there has been fires of varying intensity in different
places. For some of those fires, you would definitely have need an
underground fire cellar, which has not been a prior recommendation. For
others, people have survived the passing of the firefront and then saved
their and neighbours houses with the garden hose and a still working town
water supply. some simply were able to use the house as a shield until the
firefront passed and then exit it, but were unable to save it.

What we have missed this time on the TV is the usal copious scenes of
urban firefighters in their uniform of thongs, shorts and t-shirts, which
raises another requirement of proper clothing and personal safety gear
(boots, smke googles, smoke respirator and gloves.

Then there isthe old issue of moving the lawn and removing fallen bark,
branches and other dead groeth from around the house prior and during
bushfire season.

 

[Clifford Heath]

terryc wrote:

It is clear that there has been fires of varying intensity in different
places. For some of those fires, you would definitely have need an
underground fire cellar, which has not been a prior recommendation.

I helped out with the cleanup in Cockatoo after the Ash Wed fires.
Behind the place I helped at, just over the crest of the hill and
set into a slight slope was a 2-storey double-brick house which an
engineer had built with a nuclear bunker under the north-east ground
floor, which was a 9" thick reinforced concrete slab on footings each
side weighing nine tonnes.

The slab was collapsed into about eight big sections, and had changed
so you could break off pieces in your hand - it was like Weetbix.
So much for his nuclear shelter.

As they left during the start of the initial firestorm, an aluminium
dingy, unpainted and stored on its side in a cutting (so mostly below
ground level) beside a steel shed, *burst into flame*.

The cement-sheet house below the road was occupied the whole time and
was untouched by the fire. Firestorms are like that, I saw the same
thing in the Adelaide hills where I'd been 3 days after the fires.

The underground bunker or dugout is the only possible thing that can
survive such a fire. They used to have multiple doors, made of wet
hessian, to allow air exchange.

It's time that every house in such an environment was required to
have one within 50 metres. Other defences too, if they're to get
insurance at the same place that other folk shop.

 

[terryc]

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:35:09 +1100, Clifford Heath wrote:

The slab was collapsed into about eight big sections, and had changed
so you could break off pieces in your hand - it was like Weetbix.
So much for his nuclear shelter.

How big was the slab? If it collapsed, it sounded like the
supports/walls gave way.

I'm not worried about the changed nature of the slab,but the collapse.
the purpose is to protect life. Replacing the slab as part of
rebuilding seems sensible.

The underground bunker or dugout is the only possible thing that can
survive such a fire. They used to have multiple doors, made of wet
hessian, to allow air exchange.

I suspect that air cylinders might be required. TV carried a few comments
from people about difficulty of breathing when the fire was around and
intense fires can deplete available oxygen.

It's time that every house in such an environment was required to have
one within 50 metres. Other defences too, if they're to get insurance at
the same place that other folk shop.

I agree entirely.

 

[Mr.T]

"terryc" <newssevenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:499391a1$0$42548$c30e37c6@pit-reader.telstra.net...

I suspect that air cylinders might be required. TV carried a few comments
from people about difficulty of breathing when the fire was around and
intense fires can deplete available oxygen.

A couple of scuba tanks seems like a sensible addition if you are going to
build a bunker. Seems like fairly cheap insurance for such areas IMO.

MrT.

 

[Clifford Heath]

terryc wrote:

How big was the slab? If it collapsed, it sounded like the
supports/walls gave way.

About 4 metres each way from memory, and 9 inches thick.
The supports were solid, I suspect what happened is the
reo heated up so much it cracked the concrete - but the
extent of the damage to the slab was still amazing. The
reo wasn't strong enough to stop it falling in - and it
was less than ten years old. Point is, you need a metre
of dirt as well.

I suspect that air cylinders might be required. TV carried a few comments
from people about difficulty of breathing when the fire was around and
intense fires can deplete available oxygen.

I think that TV has overstated the danger. It's true that
some folk have died in dugouts, but many many more have
survived that would have died. The oxygen in the dugout
won't selectively migrate out to feed the fire, I don't
think partial pressures work that way, not quickly enough
anyhow. It's just a matter of having the right amount of
air exchange - not too much, not too little. it wouldn't
take much research to find the right design.

It's time that every house in such an environment was required to have
one within 50 metres. Other defences too, if they're to get insurance at
the same place that other folk shop.

I agree entirely.

For that matter, I'd like to see specialised auto insurance
for folk born in Asia, and other insurers allowed to refuse
them or demand a driving skills test. This after my 40yo
classic Italian car was wrecked in December, by a driver whose
eyes were the wrong shape to see me stationary right in front
of him. Some might scream racism - but I worked in insurance
for a while, and the Asians there reckoned that this *Asian*
insurance company shouldn't insure Asians, acknowledging they
simply can't drive. It's not the race, it's the lack of sport
in their upbringing, I maintain.

Clifford Heath.

 

[terryc]

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:02:44 +1100, Clifford Heath wrote:

I think that TV has overstated the danger.
That is the nature of TV; idiot presenter making ludicrous comments. If

you look at the images presented and idependently assess them, then you
can see it was the full range of fires..

It's true that some folk have died in dugouts, but many many more
have survived that would have died. The oxygen in the dugout won't
selectively migrate out to feed the fire, I don't think partial
pressures work that way, not quickly enough anyhow.

Umm how fast does a bad smelling fart spread?
AFAIUI, it isn't just about the oxygen disappearing, but the percentage of
oxygen dropping (normal 21% to 15% for problem to appear) and the
increasing prescence of carbon monoxide. My 2c is that if there is smoke,
then there is incomplete combustion and likely to be significant carbon
monoxide.

 

[Clifford Heath]

terryc wrote:

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:02:44 +1100, Clifford Heath wrote:
Umm how fast does a bad smelling fart spread?

Ok, point taken... some significant fraction of 342m/s I'm
guessing ;-)

AFAIUI, it isn't just about the oxygen disappearing, but the percentage of
oxygen dropping (normal 21% to 15% for problem to appear) and the
increasing prescence of carbon monoxide. My 2c is that if there is smoke,
then there is incomplete combustion and likely to be significant carbon
monoxide.

Ok, that'd be a problem even in the presence of oxygen.
CO poisons your haemoglobin. Need to ensure that you aren't
at the bottom of a gully where it'll flow in I guess, and
having emergency oxygen would help somewhat.

 

[Sylvia Else]

Clifford Heath wrote:

terryc wrote:
On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:02:44 +1100, Clifford Heath wrote:
Umm how fast does a bad smelling fart spread?

Ok, point taken... some significant fraction of 342m/s I'm
guessing ;-)

AFAIUI, it isn't just about the oxygen disappearing, but the
percentage of
oxygen dropping (normal 21% to 15% for problem to appear) and the
increasing prescence of carbon monoxide. My 2c is that if there is smoke,
then there is incomplete combustion and likely to be significant carbon
monoxide.

Ok, that'd be a problem even in the presence of oxygen.
CO poisons your haemoglobin. Need to ensure that you aren't
at the bottom of a gully where it'll flow in I guess, and
having emergency oxygen would help somewhat.

I'd go for compressed air, myself. Pure oxygen's toxic at atmospheric
pressure.

Sylvia.

 

[kreed]

On Feb 12, 1:04 pm, terryc <newssevenspam-s...@woa.com.au> wrote:

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:35:09 +1100, Clifford Heath wrote:
The slab was collapsed into about eight big sections, and had changed
so you could break off pieces in your hand - it was like Weetbix.
So much for his nuclear shelter.

How big was the slab? If it collapsed, it sounded like the
supports/walls gave way.

I'm not worried about the changed nature of the slab,but the collapse.
the purpose is to protect life. Replacing the slab as part of
rebuilding seems sensible.

The underground bunker or dugout is the only possible thing that can
survive such a fire. They used to have multiple doors, made of wet
hessian, to allow air exchange.

I suspect that air cylinders might be required. TV carried a few comments
from people about difficulty of breathing when the fire was around and
intense fires can deplete available oxygen.

If you have a petrol / diesel / LPG powered generator used for running
a fire fighting pump, wouldnt it be at risk of stopping / misfiring /
losing power, just when its needed, if the available oxygen is
depleted by fire ? or "choked" from intense smoke ?

Would some sort of "air supply" be practical in this case ?
Just another possible thing to consider in planning a fire protection
system.

It's time that every house in such an environment was required to have
one within 50 metres. Other defences too, if they're to get insurance at
the same place that other folk shop.

I agree entirely.

 

[Rheilly Phoull]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:gn0k1c$cqk$1@aioe.org...

Clifford Heath wrote:
terryc wrote:
On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:02:44 +1100, Clifford Heath wrote:
Umm how fast does a bad smelling fart spread?

Ok, point taken... some significant fraction of 342m/s I'm
guessing ;-)

AFAIUI, it isn't just about the oxygen disappearing, but the percentage
of
oxygen dropping (normal 21% to 15% for problem to appear) and the
increasing prescence of carbon monoxide. My 2c is that if there is
smoke,
then there is incomplete combustion and likely to be significant carbon
monoxide.

Ok, that'd be a problem even in the presence of oxygen.
CO poisons your haemoglobin. Need to ensure that you aren't
at the bottom of a gully where it'll flow in I guess, and
having emergency oxygen would help somewhat.

I'd go for compressed air, myself. Pure oxygen's toxic at atmospheric
pressure.

Sylvia.

You may want to check that Sil