The entire history of TV is lost with HDTV

When I was a kid, I remember shutting off the B&W and seeing that bright
white spot in the middle of the screen. As a kid, I thought that was
cool! It was kind of like the whole picture would collapse into that
spot.

Knowing what I know about the electronics involved, that spot was the
result of the horizontal and vertical outputs shutting down, while the
CRT was still getting a surge of high voltage from capacitor discharge.

But with modern HDTV sets and no CRT that spot is gone forever. I wish
the tv makers would include the option to enable a spot on the screen
when the set is shut off. I'm sure it could be done, but no one seems
to care. That spot was part of the entire history of TV, and now it's
lost forever. VERY SAD INDEED!

 

[Phil Allison]

Michael Black wrote:

But with modern HDTV sets and no CRT that spot is gone forever. I wish
the tv makers would include the option to enable a spot on the screen
when the set is shut off. I'm sure it could be done, but no one seems
to care. That spot was part of the entire history of TV, and now it's
lost forever. VERY SAD INDEED!



And it's because people like you wanted that spot to remain that tv never
changed.

** LOL !!

The basic design was from the 1930s. It reflected the available
technology. Even when color and stereo was added, it didn't create a new
standard, just retrofitted onto the existing standard. There was a limit
on what could be done, but nobody wanted to be drastic.

** Adding colour while maintaining compatibility with existing B&W sets was a masterful use of technology. That it was done in the early/mid 1950s, using tubes for everything is little short of astonishing. Take up of colour sets was slow, mainly because of the high cost and shortcomings of NTSC transmissions.

The only way to get better was to kill the past. But for a long time,
nobody wanted to do that, too expensive to switch at the transmitter end,
too expensive to switch at the receiver end.

** CTV arrived in Australia in 1975, using 625 line PAL and fully SS sets - pic quality was remarkably good and there was no incentive to make it any better. Take up by the pubic was very rapid - within a couple of years B&W sets had all but disappeared.

So there we were in the year 2000 using technology from at least 60 years
before.

** Hardly the real situation.


> But finally they decided to throw out the old.

** But only because a series of new DIGITAL technologies had been developed that offered so many advantages it could not be ignored. MPEG encoding and spread spectrum transmission allowed three pics to be carried in the same bandwidth as previously carried just one.

PLUS there was no longer any need for "guard bands" = ie blank channels in between active ones. So SIX times as many pics in the same amount of spectrum AND with much higher image and sound quality. Broadcast TV could exceed the quality being offered by regular DVDs, making large screens worth having.

The other thing that made changing over easy was the use of STBs - no new set needed just a small box that sat on top of the old one.

Far from putting up with old technology for too log, we sensibly waited for something that WAS really better.


..... Phil

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 16:42:16 -0600, electron206@online.com wrote:

When I was a kid, I remember shutting off the B&W and seeing that bright
white spot in the middle of the screen. As a kid, I thought that was
cool! It was kind of like the whole picture would collapse into that
spot.

Knowing what I know about the electronics involved, that spot was the
result of the horizontal and vertical outputs shutting down, while the
CRT was still getting a surge of high voltage from capacitor discharge.

But with modern HDTV sets and no CRT that spot is gone forever. I wish
the tv makers would include the option to enable a spot on the screen
when the set is shut off. I'm sure it could be done, but no one seems
to care. That spot was part of the entire history of TV, and now it's
lost forever. VERY SAD INDEED!

A TV, especially an LED backlight version, could do things with the
LEDs when the video is off. Night light. Lava lamp. Disco strobe.
Depends on the power-off state of the LCD, I guess.

I have a friend who invented the FakeTV. A real TV could do that.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Michael Black]

On Sun, 18 Jan 2015, electron206@online.com wrote:

When I was a kid, I remember shutting off the B&W and seeing that bright
white spot in the middle of the screen. As a kid, I thought that was
cool! It was kind of like the whole picture would collapse into that
spot.

Knowing what I know about the electronics involved, that spot was the
result of the horizontal and vertical outputs shutting down, while the
CRT was still getting a surge of high voltage from capacitor discharge.

But with modern HDTV sets and no CRT that spot is gone forever. I wish
the tv makers would include the option to enable a spot on the screen
when the set is shut off. I'm sure it could be done, but no one seems
to care. That spot was part of the entire history of TV, and now it's
lost forever. VERY SAD INDEED!

And it's because people like you wanted that spot to remain that tv never
changed.

The basic design was from the 1930s. It reflected the available
technology. Even when color and stereo was added, it didn't create a new
standard, just retrofitted onto the existing standard. There was a limit
on what could be done, but nobody wanted to be drastic.

The only way to get better was to kill the past. But for a long time,
nobody wanted to do that, too expensive to switch at the transmitter end,
too expensive to switch at the receiver end.

So there we were in the year 2000 using technology from at least 60 years
before. We'd lived through all the stories of 3D tv and other advances,
but they couldn't be made with the existing system.

But finally they decided to throw out the old. They made the switch, made
it easier for the person at home to switch (at least in the USA) and set a
deadline. I remember that night in 2009 when the "local" stations turned
off (Vermont and upper New York all agreed to go with the original
deadline), some were a bit slow, one actually put some graphics on where
the picture slowly devolved into snow, and then the signal disappeared. It
was a night to remember.

70 years of old tv is long enough. It had to be tossed in order to go
forward, so there's little sense in "keeping the past".

Michael

 

[default]

On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 16:42:16 -0600, electron206@online.com wrote:

When I was a kid, I remember shutting off the B&W and seeing that bright
white spot in the middle of the screen. As a kid, I thought that was
cool! It was kind of like the whole picture would collapse into that
spot.

Knowing what I know about the electronics involved, that spot was the
result of the horizontal and vertical outputs shutting down, while the
CRT was still getting a surge of high voltage from capacitor discharge.

But with modern HDTV sets and no CRT that spot is gone forever. I wish
the tv makers would include the option to enable a spot on the screen
when the set is shut off. I'm sure it could be done, but no one seems
to care. That spot was part of the entire history of TV, and now it's
lost forever. VERY SAD INDEED!

Proves you're getting old...

Remember when telephones had cords on them and rotary dials, or hand
cranked magnetos (they still used them in the country when I was a
kid) and "party lines?" Them were the good old days.

 

[Allan]

On 2015-01-18 22:42:16 +0000, electron206@online.com said:

When I was a kid, I remember shutting off the B&W and seeing that bright
white spot in the middle of the screen. As a kid, I thought that was
cool! It was kind of like the whole picture would collapse into that
spot.

And sometimes, the white spot would just slowly move to the side as it
fades away. There is also the crackle of static as you run your hand
over the tube. It is like frying your hand in electrons.

Knowing what I know about the electronics involved, that spot was the
result of the horizontal and vertical outputs shutting down, while the
CRT was still getting a surge of high voltage from capacitor discharge.

But with modern HDTV sets and no CRT that spot is gone forever. I wish
the tv makers would include the option to enable a spot on the screen
when the set is shut off. I'm sure it could be done, but no one seems
to care. That spot was part of the entire history of TV, and now it's
lost forever. VERY SAD INDEED!

As technology progresses, there will be new ones to remember by. There
is video artifacts from signal over compression; R2D2 sounding audio
from corrupt data streams. These are this generation's "white dot". I
consider it a new chapter in the history of TV.

 

>"Adding colour while maintaining compatibility with existing B&W sets was a >masterful use of technology. "

IMNSHO the thing itself was a wonder. Farnsworth and Baird were genius unqualified. To think that you could transmit pictures on a radio, in fact moving pictures ! Would it ever have occurred to you or I, and would we have been able to do it ? Probably could now with knowledge of today, but back then what, they just invented the pentode or some shit ?

?I truly belive people were smarter and more inventive back then. I think not much has been invented lately, rather it is an extension of older technology. So you got MOSFETs, know what the "T" stands for ? It was invented in the 1950s. It's been improved, but it is still a piece of silicon with dopants in it. More layers, works differently but it is still a transistor. What is oin an IC ? Transistors.

I'm sorry, I think I am about to hijack the thread. (I am not really sorry, I just said that lol)

Over in SED I remember the thread where the engineers no longer want to pay new grads to work. they don't know shit. Well they do but some of the simplest engineering tasks elude them. They might be able to design some ridiculously complex difgital circuit, but a simple OP AMP filter, they are lost. Not all, but it is things like that.

Now a buddy of mine who is a process engineer found himself in need of a job. He is 66 years old. they had just gone through a recent grad who could not do it. It is not like the guy didn't try from what I heard. He was almost glad to be fired because he got all streesed out. I think the education system let him down. I thing the education system lets alot of people down. And they rip you off. Why can't I use a three year old textbook on ancient Roman history ?

It has b3come a conspiracy really. the textbook publishers somehow got the colleges to do this. I bet there are kickbacks involved. there is a video called "Colege Conspiracy" that keeps getting pulled off of youtube due to an accusation of a DMCA vilation. the complaining party is a college.

Now no college would ever make a video like that so they are not the owners of the material, yet those who wrote the laws in this country made it so that anyone can get anything they don't like pulled off of the internet just by claiming it is a violation of the DMCA. But of course someone keepss uploading it again, so it is out ther but the URL changes periodically. I have local and could host it if I want. I don't have to worry about the DMCA because I am pretty much uncollectable. However youtube is not so lucky, and they do not want to fuck with it. I don't blame them because I am sure their service is cutting into revenue for the entertainment industry.

At any rate, something happened to this country. We got a senator who think you can take a bus to Hawaii, a President who thinks there are 57 or more states, congressmen who thiunk Women can't get peregnant from a legitimate rape. What the fuck ?

The point is, if people were these kind of idiots in the 1930s, we would never have television. Hell maybe not even radio, and the liberals would be happy if these idiots were even older, and the gun would never be invented. Maybe not, they just want us to give up ours while they keep theirs. Proven fact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSnpqs8r9iM

There ya go.

 

"Several years ago the then-12-yr-old neighbor kid got locked
out of his house, and asked to use our phone to call his Mom
at work. But he had no idea how to operate a dial phone...
I had to dial for him! "

HAHAHAHA. Did he also notice the wire on it ? "What's that ?".


We got an old dial phone for power outages. In fact it was my Grandmother's and she was hard of hearing so it has one of those amplifiers built into the handset. This offers an object lesson in the laws of physics. One time there were three of us on the phone at the same time. That is rare but we all picked up a call at the same time. When the phone with the amp was picked up you couldn't hear on the other ones. Why ? Because the power to run that amplifier is not free, the current drain sucked the voltage down to the point where there wasn't enough left for the other extensions.

I got a buddy who is 21. Glad he made it so I can finally send him to the store for beer. One day we were hanging out and I pointed to the old phone and asked if he knew how to use it. He said yes. I dunno, I might have to test hinm on that. He has one of those phones where you don't even need a computer. I don't want that shit because it is too easy to lose.

My late friend Jim Watt hgad this olady named Bubbles. I never knew her real name, he called her that because she had big tits and a curvy ass. Anyway, he taught her to make butter. Got some whipping cream and put it in a small plastic container and told her to shake it. she made butter. Never even thought of it before.

the world really is fucked up. butter was a method of preserving milk, so was cheese. Ham was a method of preserving pork because it was dry the bacteria grow much slower. Now they make the ham and then pump water back into it at eight pounds a gallon and sell it by the pound. If that ham is three bucks a pound you are buying water for $24 a gallon. What's more, it doesn't last. It spoils. these hillbillies back then used to keep these hams in the root cellar for four months. Nowadays I have had them go bad in a week in the damn refrigerator.

Less is more they say. Well I say ignorance is bliss and there are a hell of alot of blissful people in the world today.

Not to get serious or anything here, but I advocate an 80 % reduction in world population. Know why ? Darwin could tell you. Useless otherfuckers. Unfortunately they are among the richjest around. But of course it ocsts money to be stupid and survive usually. Usually. Charity makes sure there are unfit to surviv poor people as well. Fuck it all.

Gotta go, the phone is ringing. Oh wait, that is not a bell. Kinda beeping sorta. Nothing in nature sounds like that.

Yeah, there is a ringtone you can download that sounds like- guess what - a phone ringing ! Go figure.

And now, no matter what, there is an app for that.

 

[Bob Masta]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2015 10:32:51 -0500, default
<default@defaulter.net> wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 16:42:16 -0600, electron206@online.com wrote:

When I was a kid, I remember shutting off the B&W and seeing that bright
white spot in the middle of the screen. As a kid, I thought that was
cool! It was kind of like the whole picture would collapse into that
spot.

Knowing what I know about the electronics involved, that spot was the
result of the horizontal and vertical outputs shutting down, while the
CRT was still getting a surge of high voltage from capacitor discharge.

But with modern HDTV sets and no CRT that spot is gone forever. I wish
the tv makers would include the option to enable a spot on the screen
when the set is shut off. I'm sure it could be done, but no one seems
to care. That spot was part of the entire history of TV, and now it's
lost forever. VERY SAD INDEED!

Proves you're getting old...

Remember when telephones had cords on them and rotary dials, or hand
cranked magnetos (they still used them in the country when I was a
kid) and "party lines?" Them were the good old days.

Our kitchen wall phone (original installation from the early
'70s) has a 25-ft cord and rotary dial... I love it! The
handset has a nice heft to it that makes the lightweight
modern phones feel like cheap junk. (I figure it might come
in handy as a club if I ever need to defend against an
intruder... and I can tie him up with the cord afterward!)

Several years ago the then-12-yr-old neighbor kid got locked
out of his house, and asked to use our phone to call his Mom
at work. But he had no idea how to operate a dial phone...
I had to dial for him!


Bob Masta

DAQARTA v7.60
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter
Frequency Counter, Pitch Track, Pitch-to-MIDI
FREE Signal Generator, DaqMusiq generator
Science with your sound card!

 

On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 15:30:46 -0800, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

A TV, especially an LED backlight version, could do things with the
LEDs when the video is off. Night light. Lava lamp. Disco strobe.
Depends on the power-off state of the LCD, I guess.

That would be a great add-on where it could be offerred and stull have
the full power OFF. The different "scenes" could operate by multiple
pushing a button on the remote. (like the christmas lights that
different 'chase' modes).
Then they could add that SPOT in the screen too!

>I have a friend who invented the FakeTV. A real TV could do that.

FakeTv? What is that? Sounds like something youd give a small child
that only had one or a few built in videos

Of course there's always those fake fireplace DVDs they sell at
Christmas, which just repeat the same scene of a fire, over and over and
over. A novelty which gets boring real fast.

 

"The power rating on the specification plate was 400W. The dirty great 25kV
shunt triode in the horizontal output cage probably accounted for a fair bit
of that. "

The old 6BK4.

 

[Ian Field]

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:352b763a-23a6-494f-9249-7a3fe982f218@googlegroups.com...

Michael Black wrote:


But with modern HDTV sets and no CRT that spot is gone forever. I wish
the tv makers would include the option to enable a spot on the screen
when the set is shut off. I'm sure it could be done, but no one seems
to care. That spot was part of the entire history of TV, and now it's
lost forever. VERY SAD INDEED!



And it's because people like you wanted that spot to remain that tv never
changed.

** LOL !!


The basic design was from the 1930s. It reflected the available
technology. Even when color and stereo was added, it didn't create a new
standard, just retrofitted onto the existing standard. There was a limit
on what could be done, but nobody wanted to be drastic.

** Adding colour while maintaining compatibility with existing B&W sets
was a masterful use of technology. That it was done in the early/mid
1950s, using tubes for everything is little short of astonishing. Take up
of colour sets was slow, mainly because of the high cost and shortcomings
of NTSC transmissions.

My first CTV even had a couple of crude early ICs, there were a few
transistors in the decoder - all the rest was valves (tubes).

The power rating on the specification plate was 400W. The dirty great 25kV
shunt triode in the horizontal output cage probably accounted for a fair bit
of that.

 

[Ian Field]

"default" <default@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:il8qbatg7k1na1a1e5mfm58hvl7ituik52@4ax.com...

On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 16:42:16 -0600, electron206@online.com wrote:

When I was a kid, I remember shutting off the B&W and seeing that bright
white spot in the middle of the screen. As a kid, I thought that was
cool! It was kind of like the whole picture would collapse into that
spot.

Knowing what I know about the electronics involved, that spot was the
result of the horizontal and vertical outputs shutting down, while the
CRT was still getting a surge of high voltage from capacitor discharge.

But with modern HDTV sets and no CRT that spot is gone forever. I wish
the tv makers would include the option to enable a spot on the screen
when the set is shut off. I'm sure it could be done, but no one seems
to care. That spot was part of the entire history of TV, and now it's
lost forever. VERY SAD INDEED!

Proves you're getting old...

Remember when telephones had cords on them and rotary dials, or hand
cranked magnetos (they still used them in the country when I was a
kid) and "party lines?" Them were the good old days.

At one school I went to, the phone in the headmasters office had a crank
handle - the phone for students to use was more recently installed - it had
press button A/press button B at various tones after you put the coins in.

 

[Ian Field]

"Bob Masta" <N0Spam@daqarta.com> wrote in message
news:54be5ad6.702348@news.eternal-september.org...

On Mon, 19 Jan 2015 10:32:51 -0500, default
default@defaulter.net> wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 16:42:16 -0600, electron206@online.com wrote:

When I was a kid, I remember shutting off the B&W and seeing that bright
white spot in the middle of the screen. As a kid, I thought that was
cool! It was kind of like the whole picture would collapse into that
spot.

Knowing what I know about the electronics involved, that spot was the
result of the horizontal and vertical outputs shutting down, while the
CRT was still getting a surge of high voltage from capacitor discharge.

But with modern HDTV sets and no CRT that spot is gone forever. I wish
the tv makers would include the option to enable a spot on the screen
when the set is shut off. I'm sure it could be done, but no one seems
to care. That spot was part of the entire history of TV, and now it's
lost forever. VERY SAD INDEED!

Proves you're getting old...

Remember when telephones had cords on them and rotary dials, or hand
cranked magnetos (they still used them in the country when I was a
kid) and "party lines?" Them were the good old days.

Our kitchen wall phone (original installation from the early
'70s) has a 25-ft cord and rotary dial... I love it! The
handset has a nice heft to it that makes the lightweight
modern phones feel like cheap junk.

All the modern phones I've stripped for anything useful had a weighty steel
stamping clamped into the handset.

 

[Ian Field]

<jurb6006@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4d9bb25e-20ce-45b3-b31c-731dc707b6ac@googlegroups.com...

"The power rating on the specification plate was 400W. The dirty great
25kV
shunt triode in the horizontal output cage probably accounted for a fair
bit
of that. "

The old 6BK4.

PD500 or something very similar - the TV was a Philips G6.

 

"The designers obviously don't make fast channel changes a
design goal at all. "

Now it is a moot point because it has to acquire. Because of the compression it takes time to have the full frame.

Used to be differetn though. I remember some sets changed immediately, some even did not have mutoing during that time. In fact I rememeber the Zenith cable boxes fro Northcoast, SSAVI3 decoder. and those damn things ith their AFC, if the modulation got turned too high and there were too many holes in the carrier (peak white) the thing would lose AFC lock and it would be black and white with no sound.

That's when I knew the last real Zenith engineer was dead.

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

Michael Black wrote:

My tv set has a USB jack, but I can't remember if that's only for
upgrading the firmware, or if I can display pictures from a USB
device. I'm sure some definitely do that now. Certainly my blu-ray
player has a USB jack that can be used that way.

TV's can do that. Stores use the feature all the time to show advertising
in store windows.

So now it is relatively easy to use an "out of use" tv set as a
picture frame, or to display "art", just like science fiction fortold.

If you want to pay for the power.


--

 

[Michael Black]

On Thu, 22 Jan 2015, Tom Del Rosso wrote:

electron206@online.com wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 15:30:46 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

A TV, especially an LED backlight version, could do things with the
LEDs when the video is off. Night light. Lava lamp. Disco strobe.
Depends on the power-off state of the LCD, I guess.

That would be a great add-on where it could be offerred and stull have
the full power OFF. The different "scenes" could operate by multiple
pushing a button on the remote. (like the christmas lights that
different 'chase' modes).
Then they could add that SPOT in the screen too!

It would obviously be popular to have a single button on the remote that
could instantly bring up an asteroids game or similar, to play during
commercials.

Since they are computers now, that could be done. Just figure out how to
modify the firmware.

My tv set has a USB jack, but I can't remember if that's only for
upgrading the firmware, or if I can display pictures from a USB device.
I'm sure some definitely do that now. Certainly my blu-ray player has a
USB jack that can be used that way.

So now it is relatively easy to use an "out of use" tv set as a picture
frame, or to display "art", just like science fiction fortold.

Michael

 

[Michael Black]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015, John G wrote:

Tom Del Rosso submitted this idea :
electron206@online.com wrote:
When I was a kid, I remember shutting off the B&W and seeing that
bright white spot in the middle of the screen. As a kid, I thought
that was cool! It was kind of like the whole picture would collapse
into that spot.

It was like watching the Big Crunch, I used to think.

What I really miss is being able to turn the dial fast and instanly change
from channel to channel, so fast that with 0.1 seconds on each channel you
could still see what was on each channel.

It's interesting, A long time ago we had TVs that warmed up then started
then we got standby to get the the picture on quicker, and now we have gone
to digital we have to wait while the software decides what to do next. :-?

Remember, the tv sets are now computers, both of mine run Linux. So they
have to boot up first when you turn them on, then acquire a picture from
the station.

Michael

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

John G wrote:

It's interesting, A long time ago we had TVs that warmed up then
started then we got standby to get the the picture on quicker, and
now we have gone to digital we have to wait while the software
decides what to do next. :-?

One reason I was a slow to get cable was because I hated the slowness of
digital tuners. I still do. It's ridiculous how slow they are. Obviously
unnecessary. The designers obviously don't make fast channel changes a
design goal at all.

--