The 22 Month Eletrolytics

[Joe]

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well before the problem occurred, I had come across a description of the
failure and how to fix it by replacing a particular capacitor on the power
supply board.

It turns out that the particular capacitor supposedly would likely be
leaking some electrolyte or be bulging - it was doing neither.

When I opened up the player and left it turned on for a few minutes, that
particular capacitor became very much hotter than any other capacitor, so
I replaced it, and the player is still working now, some two years later.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Digital Stream DTX9900 digital to analog
converter box for my old TV. Son of a ... it too failed at about the 22
month mark. I opened up the case, and there it was - a bulging capacitor
on the power supply board.

I replaced that capacitor a couple of weeks ago, and the converter has
since been working.

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7. Other than that, I use the converter a lot more
than the DVD player.

--- Joe

 

[Phil Allison]

"Joe"

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well before the problem occurred, I had come across a description of the
failure and how to fix it by replacing a particular capacitor on the power
supply board.

It turns out that the particular capacitor supposedly would likely be
leaking some electrolyte or be bulging - it was doing neither.

When I opened up the player and left it turned on for a few minutes, that
particular capacitor became very much hotter than any other capacitor, so
I replaced it, and the player is still working now, some two years later.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Digital Stream DTX9900 digital to analog
converter box for my old TV. Son of a ... it too failed at about the 22
month mark. I opened up the case, and there it was - a bulging capacitor
on the power supply board.

I replaced that capacitor a couple of weeks ago, and the converter has
since been working.

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7. Other than that, I use the converter a lot more
than the DVD player.

** You can expect a no-brand electro operating in an environment of 65
degrees C to fail after 16,000 hours.

The answer is to turn all such devices off at the power point.



..... Phil

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:37:29 -0800, none@given.now (Joe) wrote:

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7.

Heat kills electrolytic capacitors. Electrolytic life calculators:
<http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/tech-center/life-calculators.aspx>
<http://www.cde.com/calc/>
<http://www.niccomp.com/Products/General/Alumlyticlifeexpect.pdf>
<http://www.edn.com/article/CA6588368.html>
<http://powerelectronics.com/images/archive/ElectrolyticCap.pdf>

For every 10C increase in temperature, the lifetime is cut roughly in
half. If the box runs hot, the caps won't last very long, especially
if they're running at the bitter edge of their voltage rating, and
have a high ripple current (common in power supply filter caps).

Note that this is for a perfectly normal electrolytic capacitor and
not the defective bulging variety caused by counterfeit electrolyte.
When a normal cap fails, it doesn't bulge. However, it does loose
capacitance and ESR rather rapidly. End-o-life is considered a 20%
drop in capacitance.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jeff Liebermann"

Note that this is for a perfectly normal electrolytic capacitor and
not the defective bulging variety caused by counterfeit electrolyte.
When a normal cap fails, it doesn't bulge. However, it does loose
capacitance and ESR rather rapidly. End-o-life is considered a 20%
drop in capacitance.

** Electros do not lose capacitance until the ESR value has risen
dramatically.

This is why service techs use ESR meters to find bad and failing electro
caps and not capacitance meters.

Eg;

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm


...... Phil

 

[Chris Bartram]

On 14/03/2010 02:37, Joe wrote:

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7. Other than that, I use the converter a lot more
than the DVD player.

--- Joe

Electrolytic caps have always been a failure point on anything switched
on all the time: a few years ago replacing them in printers at fire
stations was a regular task for me and my colleagues. As they were used
for callouts, these printers were on 24x7x365.

This is of course made worse by capacitor plague these days:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

I'm just about to replace a dodgy cap in my washing machine's control
board: the machine has been showing odd behaviour for a while, and
there's a 680uf 10v that is visibly bulging. The mchine isn't on all the
time, but the power switch is a soft on-off, so some parts must be
powerud up whenever it is plugged in. I'd say it's about 3 years old.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Failure of electrolytic caps in fairly new equipment is nothing new, and has
actually become common as manufacurers try using cheaper components to
attain the highest profits.

The throwaway society has been in development for decades. Every year
products are made to new lower quality standards, with the intended effect
of lowering everyone's expectations of any reliability or quality, IMO.

But typical shoppers just love those $30 DVD players, and can't get enough
of 'em.

It seems that the counterfeit electrolyte story will never go away, as
someone always has to mention it almost any time capacitors are discussed.

Manufacturers choose to build equipment with capacitors that are minimumally
acceptable for the circuits the caps are used in.
It's not that there aren't any quality caps with adequate specifications,
the problem is that better quality caps cost more.

I think about 2 years of proper operation for new consumer electronic gear,
is probably about the average lifetime before repair or replacement is
required.

The higher priced consumer goods (big plasma TVs, etc) are probably going to
be a bit more reliable since a large outraged consumer group might get into
class action, but probably not many would call their elected representatives
or a consumer watchdog group for a $40 to $200 item that fails to work in a
year.
Then again, the retailer or manufacturer might just say that the buyer
should've bought the extended warranty.

The consumer is always the one that gets to find out how long a product will
last.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Joe" <none@given.now> wrote in message
news:none-1303101837300001@dialup-4.231.174.138.dial1.losangeles1.level3.net...

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well before the problem occurred, I had come across a description of the
failure and how to fix it by replacing a particular capacitor on the power
supply board.

It turns out that the particular capacitor supposedly would likely be
leaking some electrolyte or be bulging - it was doing neither.

When I opened up the player and left it turned on for a few minutes, that
particular capacitor became very much hotter than any other capacitor, so
I replaced it, and the player is still working now, some two years later.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Digital Stream DTX9900 digital to analog
converter box for my old TV. Son of a ... it too failed at about the 22
month mark. I opened up the case, and there it was - a bulging capacitor
on the power supply board.

I replaced that capacitor a couple of weeks ago, and the converter has
since been working.

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7. Other than that, I use the converter a lot more
than the DVD player.

--- Joe

 

[Jamie]

Joe wrote:

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well before the problem occurred, I had come across a description of the
failure and how to fix it by replacing a particular capacitor on the power
supply board.

It turns out that the particular capacitor supposedly would likely be
leaking some electrolyte or be bulging - it was doing neither.

When I opened up the player and left it turned on for a few minutes, that
particular capacitor became very much hotter than any other capacitor, so
I replaced it, and the player is still working now, some two years later.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Digital Stream DTX9900 digital to analog
converter box for my old TV. Son of a ... it too failed at about the 22
month mark. I opened up the case, and there it was - a bulging capacitor
on the power supply board.

I replaced that capacitor a couple of weeks ago, and the converter has
since been working.

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7. Other than that, I use the converter a lot more
than the DVD player.

--- Joe
They call that market research! Built in obsolescence.

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Joe" <none@given.now> wrote in message
news:none-1303101837300001@dialup-4.231.174.138.dial1.losangeles1.level3.net...
I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well before the problem occurred, I had come across a description of the
failure and how to fix it by replacing a particular capacitor on the
power
supply board.

It turns out that the particular capacitor supposedly would likely be
leaking some electrolyte or be bulging - it was doing neither.

When I opened up the player and left it turned on for a few minutes, that
particular capacitor became very much hotter than any other capacitor, so
I replaced it, and the player is still working now, some two years later.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Digital Stream DTX9900 digital to
analog
converter box for my old TV. Son of a ... it too failed at about the 22
month mark. I opened up the case, and there it was - a bulging capacitor
on the power supply board.

I replaced that capacitor a couple of weeks ago, and the converter has
since been working.

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7. Other than that, I use the converter a lot more
than the DVD player.

--- Joe

"Wild_Bill" <wb_wildbill@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:YX5nn.68659$Jq1.44712@en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com...

Failure of electrolytic caps in fairly new equipment is nothing new, and
has actually become common as manufacurers try using cheaper components to
attain the highest profits.

The throwaway society has been in development for decades. Every year
products are made to new lower quality standards, with the intended effect
of lowering everyone's expectations of any reliability or quality, IMO.

But typical shoppers just love those $30 DVD players, and can't get enough
of 'em.

It seems that the counterfeit electrolyte story will never go away, as
someone always has to mention it almost any time capacitors are discussed.

Manufacturers choose to build equipment with capacitors that are
minimumally acceptable for the circuits the caps are used in.
It's not that there aren't any quality caps with adequate specifications,
the problem is that better quality caps cost more.

I think about 2 years of proper operation for new consumer electronic
gear, is probably about the average lifetime before repair or replacement
is required.

The higher priced consumer goods (big plasma TVs, etc) are probably going
to be a bit more reliable since a large outraged consumer group might get
into class action, but probably not many would call their elected
representatives or a consumer watchdog group for a $40 to $200 item that
fails to work in a year.
Then again, the retailer or manufacturer might just say that the buyer
should've bought the extended warranty.

The consumer is always the one that gets to find out how long a product
will last.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

100% agrrement on everything everyone has said. It's just par for the
course, I'm afraid. I replace probably 5 - 10 electrolytics in switchmode
power supplies every week. As others have said, it's not that there are not
caps adequately rated for the job - I use them as replacements. It's just
that a 105 degree low ESR cap with a 30% voltage margin, is a lot more
expensive than an 80 degree bog standard type, with a 5% voltage margin, so
the manufacturers use the cheapest one that will get them through the
warranty period. It's a consumer driven thing really. If you want a $30
no-name Walmart DVD player, then the people who make them for Walmart, are
going to have to use the cheapest components they can find. The fact that
the OP's machine was a Philips, that might be considered a 'good' name, no
longer holds water either. For some time now, Philips gear has not had the
same quality 'hallmark' as it did here in Europe, as little as 10 years ago
....

Arfa

 

[D Yuniskis]

Wild_Bill wrote:

Manufacturers choose to build equipment with capacitors that are
minimumally acceptable for the circuits the caps are used in.
It's not that there aren't any quality caps with adequate
specifications, the problem is that better quality caps cost more.

I started noticing a lot of El Cheapie DVD players failing
*real* quick. ALARMINGLY so! Since they were "disposable",
I never thought much of it.

One day took one apart. 6.3V caps on a 10V (?) line...

I think about 2 years of proper operation for new consumer electronic
gear, is probably about the average lifetime before repair or
replacement is required.

The higher priced consumer goods (big plasma TVs, etc) are probably
going to be a bit more reliable since a large outraged consumer group
might get into class action, but probably not many would call their
elected representatives or a consumer watchdog group for a $40 to $200
item that fails to work in a year.

Class action lawsuits don't usually amount to much -- besides
a chance for some lawyer to make a tidy sum by doing nothing.
Wasn't Gateway sued over one (all?) of their ($$$K) plasma sets
a few years ago?

 

[bob urz]

D Yuniskis wrote:

Wild_Bill wrote:
Manufacturers choose to build equipment with capacitors that are
minimumally acceptable for the circuits the caps are used in.
It's not that there aren't any quality caps with adequate
specifications, the problem is that better quality caps cost more.

I started noticing a lot of El Cheapie DVD players failing
*real* quick. ALARMINGLY so! Since they were "disposable",
I never thought much of it.

One day took one apart. 6.3V caps on a 10V (?) line...

I think about 2 years of proper operation for new consumer electronic
gear, is probably about the average lifetime before repair or
replacement is required.

The higher priced consumer goods (big plasma TVs, etc) are probably
going to be a bit more reliable since a large outraged consumer group
might get into class action, but probably not many would call their
elected representatives or a consumer watchdog group for a $40 to $200
item that fails to work in a year.

Class action lawsuits don't usually amount to much -- besides
a chance for some lawyer to make a tidy sum by doing nothing.
Wasn't Gateway sued over one (all?) of their ($$$K) plasma sets
a few years ago?

Its a different world now. 25 years ago brand names meant something and
manufacturers would want to protect there reputation.

These days, much of the cheap stuff is no name junk that you would be
lucky to get parts or manuals for if at all. they really don't care as
long as it works out of the box. So what if the name you never heard of
is tarnished? they will just get a new name and go on and sell millions
at your favorite discount store and wallmart.

There may be customer expectations on lifetime, but other than the
factory warranty there is no implied life expectations.

There is no money in fixing this junk unless your doing it out of your
house and selling it on craigs list as a hobby.

bob

 

[larry moe 'n curly]

On Mar 13, 7:37 pm, n...@given.now (Joe) wrote:

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well before the problem occurred, I had come across a description of the
failure and how to fix it by replacing a particular capacitor on the power
supply board.

It turns out that the particular capacitor supposedly would likely be
leaking some electrolyte or be bulging - it was doing neither.

When I opened up the player and left it turned on for a few minutes, that
particular capacitor became very much hotter than any other capacitor, so
I replaced it, and the player is still working now, some two years later.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Digital Stream DTX9900 digital to analog
converter box for my old TV.  Son of a ...  it too failed at about the 22
month mark.  I opened up the case, and there it was - a bulging capacitor
on the power supply board.

I replaced that capacitor a couple of weeks ago, and the converter has
since been working.

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these?  

I think you caught it early, before it had a chance to build up enough
pressure to leak or bulge. But at www.BadCaps.net, the experts
mention that some caps go bad without ever bulging or leaking,
although I've seen only one like that, in my 33-year-old Japanese TV
that's needed only two caps replaced. It's connected to an RCA
converter box that developed 3-4 bulging caps in less than 23 months.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:19:02 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann"
Note that this is for a perfectly normal electrolytic capacitor and
not the defective bulging variety caused by counterfeit electrolyte.
When a normal cap fails, it doesn't bulge. However, it does loose
capacitance and ESR rather rapidly. End-o-life is considered a 20%
drop in capacitance.

** Electros do not lose capacitance until the ESR value has risen
dramatically.

Read what I wrote. I said that when *NORMAL* cazapitors fail they
don't bulge but do have their ESR increase rather rapidly. When the
basic tolerance on the cazapitor is -20%/+80%, an additional -20% loss
in cazapitance could easily result in a measured value of 60% of the
rated cazapitance. I've seen some loss of cazapitance with high ESR
cazapitors but not all of them. ESR increase is a much better
indication of impending failure than cazapitance loss.

This is why service techs use ESR meters to find bad and failing electro
caps and not capacitance meters.

Yeah, yeah...

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm

I bought the Dick Smith ESR tester designed by Bob Parker. Really
nice and handy (as long as I remember to discharge the cap before
testing).



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jeff Liebermann"
"Phil Allison"

"Jeff Liebermann"
Note that this is for a perfectly normal electrolytic capacitor and
not the defective bulging variety caused by counterfeit electrolyte.
When a normal cap fails, it doesn't bulge. However, it does loose
capacitance and ESR rather rapidly. End-o-life is considered a 20%
drop in capacitance.

** Electros do not lose capacitance until the ESR value has risen
dramatically.

Read what I wrote.

** I did and it was misleading.

So I improved it for you.

I said that ..

** There would be no need for you to completely re-write it if it was OK
the first time.

when *NORMAL* cazapitors fail they
don't bulge but do have their ESR increase rather rapidly.

** Nonsense - bulging at the end of life in a hot environment is 100%
NORMAL for modern electros.

When the
basic tolerance on the cazapitor is -20%/+80%, an additional -20% loss
in cazapitance could easily result in a measured value of 60% of the
rated cazapitance.

** Fraid the ESR would have gone so high the electro cap would not be doing
its job long before that.

I've seen some loss of cazapitance with high ESR cazapitors but not
all of them.

** Purely academic to even measure it.

ESR increase is a much better indication of impending failure than
cazapitance loss.

** Goody - this it what you missed previously.

This is why service techs use ESR meters to find bad and failing electro
caps and not capacitance meters.

Yeah, yeah...

** Smug prick.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm

I bought the Dick Smith ESR tester designed by Bob Parker. Really
nice and handy (as long as I remember to discharge the cap before
testing).

** Bob designed the project single handed and " Electronics Australia "
magazine published it - that meant it was available for any kit supplier
to market as a kit. However the programmed uP was available only from Bob.

Dick Smith Electronics was one of four retailers in Australia that did a kit
and included the uP - one of them did not.

So the unit is the " Bob Parker ESR meter" or "Electronics Australia ESR
meter".



..... Phil

 

[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months
shy of 2 years, it failed

This sort of thing is completely inexcusable. I suppose it's brought on by
cost, or at least I hope so, given how many years have gone by since the
electrolytic plague took place. This computer (see the sig) is running on
all of its original electrolytics, as is the Deskpro EN a few places down
and many other devices. The EN runs some of its 'lytics a little bit warm to
the touch, but it's still going. It runs 24/7.

This machine also spends a large amount of time powered on, and was used as
a server prior to falling into my possession sometime in 2002.

I tried to save a 16-port SMC ethernet switch after it started acting up.
One of the electrolytics was blown up, but a replacement did not restore
normal operation. My guess is that damage to the other circuitry had taken
place.

So it *can* be done. I suppose the only reason it doesn't always work out is
due to cost and the odd defective unit.

William
--
Brought to you by an IBM PS/2 9585-0XF, "Defiant"
AMD 486-133/64MB/2GB S/N 23HN457

 

[Jim Yanik]

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in
news:iaoqp5dk0ol8spaqfg76rs0hg71de9836d@4ax.com:

I bought the Dick Smith ESR tester designed by Bob Parker. Really
nice and handy (as long as I remember to discharge the cap before
testing).

I love my DSE ESR meter.

Very useful,great price,fun to build.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

 

[Arfa Daily]

"William R. Walsh" <newsgroups1@idontwantjunqueemail.walshcomptech.com>
wrote in message news:j-WdnVY6usNsGQDWnZ2dnUVZ_uOdnZ2d@mchsi.com...

Hi!

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months
shy of 2 years, it failed

This sort of thing is completely inexcusable. I suppose it's brought on by
cost, or at least I hope so, given how many years have gone by since the
electrolytic plague took place. This computer (see the sig) is running on
all of its original electrolytics, as is the Deskpro EN a few places down
and many other devices. The EN runs some of its 'lytics a little bit warm
to
the touch, but it's still going. It runs 24/7.

This machine also spends a large amount of time powered on, and was used
as
a server prior to falling into my possession sometime in 2002.

I tried to save a 16-port SMC ethernet switch after it started acting up.
One of the electrolytics was blown up, but a replacement did not restore
normal operation. My guess is that damage to the other circuitry had taken
place.

So it *can* be done. I suppose the only reason it doesn't always work out
is
due to cost and the odd defective unit.


William

Further circuitry damage can often be a consequence of failing smps
secondary-side electrolytics. If the supply monitors say the 12v rail for
regulation feedback, and the filter cap on that rail goes bad, the resulting
hash and ripple can appear to the sensing circuit as a low output. This
causes the m/s ratio of the chopper drive to open up in an effort to restore
the rail to the correct value. As all the other rails are tightly
magnetically coupled to the bad rail as a consequence of them all sharing
the same transformer core, the end result is that the 3.3v and 5v rails can
go sky-high, causing a trail of catastrophic damage to various LSIs in the
equipment.

Arfa

 

[Phil Allison]

"Arfa Daily"

Further circuitry damage can often be a consequence of failing smps
secondary-side electrolytics. If the supply monitors say the 12v rail for
regulation feedback, and the filter cap on that rail goes bad, the
resulting hash and ripple can appear to the sensing circuit as a low
output. This causes the m/s ratio of the chopper drive to open up in an
effort to restore the rail to the correct value. As all the other rails
are tightly magnetically coupled to the bad rail as a consequence of them
all sharing the same transformer core, the end result is that the 3.3v and
5v rails can go sky-high, causing a trail of catastrophic damage to
various LSIs in the equipment.

** Over-voltage protection is essential for devices with such SMPSs - a
sacrificial zener bridging the regulated voltage will do the job for a
single output supply.

Multiple output supplies need something a bit more complex that monitors a
sum off all the DC outputs and reacts to any significant increase.

Many cheap and some expensive products do not have anything.



...... Phil

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:30:29 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

Read what I wrote.

** I did and it was misleading.
So I improved it for you.

Ummm... thanks. It's not often that I get to engage in a debate where
both sides basically agree.

I said that ..

** There would be no need for you to completely re-write it if it was OK
the first time.

Fine. Next time I reply to one of your asterisk infested rants, I'll
use words with fewer syllables and shorter sentences in the vain hope
that you might find them more digestible.

when *NORMAL* cazapitors fail they
don't bulge but do have their ESR increase rather rapidly.

** Nonsense - bulging at the end of life in a hot environment is 100%
NORMAL for modern electros.

I'm staring at a 20 year old Motorola MSF5000 CLB SSCB controller
board with 5 assorted electrolytic cazapitors. Every single one of
them failed with an unusually high ESR measurement. One leaked but
none bulged. I see the same thing in switchers and motherboards. Some
caps also blow the rubber plug out the bottom instead of bulging the
case.

Actually, you may be correct. Self-destruction and bulging just might
be considered normal for "modern" electrolytic cazapitors, but not the
older caps.

When the
basic tolerance on the cazapitor is -20%/+80%, an additional -20% loss
in cazapitance could easily result in a measured value of 60% of the
rated cazapitance.

** Fraid the ESR would have gone so high the electro cap would not be doing
its job long before that.

Correct. The high ESR (equivalent series resistance) is especially
bad in cazapitors that have a high ripple current, such as in power
supplies. The increased internal resistance times the current squared
causes considerable self heating.

The office next to me does home energy calculations and tomography.
They have a rather expensive FLIR IR camera. I've borrowed it a few
times to look at boards and power supplies looking for hot spots. It's
totally wonderful and easily shows hot caps, chips, etc. Some
examples:
<http://www.nationalinfrared.com/image_browser.php>

I've seen some loss of cazapitance with high ESR cazapitors but not
all of them.

** Purely academic to even measure it.

Yep. However, I'm lazy. If the ESR tester says it's bad, I usually
don't bother also measuring the cazapitance. Next time I replace some
caps, I'll take some measurements.

ESR increase is a much better indication of impending failure than
cazapitance loss.

** Goody - this it what you missed previously.

Well, ok. I'll admit that your statement is a bit clearer. Please
don't let it go to your head.

This is why service techs use ESR meters to find bad and failing electro
caps and not capacitance meters.

Yeah, yeah...

** Smug prick.

Damn right. I'm also arrogant, self centered, self righteous,
egotistical, and believe the world revolves around me. One has to be
like that to debate anything with you.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm

I bought the Dick Smith ESR tester designed by Bob Parker. Really
nice and handy (as long as I remember to discharge the cap before
testing).

** Bob designed the project single handed and " Electronics Australia "
magazine published it - that meant it was available for any kit supplier
to market as a kit. However the programmed uP was available only from Bob.

Dick Smith Electronics was one of four retailers in Australia that did a kit
and included the uP - one of them did not.

So the unit is the " Bob Parker ESR meter" or "Electronics Australia ESR
meter".

Ummm... thanks. Actually, I lied. The front of mine says: "ESR and
Low-Ohms Meter". No Dick Smith anywhere in sight. I forgot if I
bought it from Dick Smith or someone else. I think it came via
Canada.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jeff Liebermann"
"Phil Allison"

Read what I wrote.

** I did and it was misleading.
So I improved it for you.

Ummm... thanks.

** Fuck you.

I said that ..

** There would be no need for you to completely re-write it if it was OK
the first time.

Fine.

** So the fool agrees he had to re-write his piece to cover up the earlier
errors.

when *NORMAL* cazapitors fail they
don't bulge but do have their ESR increase rather rapidly.

** Nonsense - bulging at the end of life in a hot environment is 100%
NORMAL for modern electros.

I'm staring at a 20 year old Motorola

** 20 years old is not "modern ".

Actually, you may be correct. Self-destruction and bulging just might
be considered normal for "modern" electrolytic cazapitors, but not the
older caps.

** Goody - one for me.

When the
basic tolerance on the cazapitor is -20%/+80%, an additional -20% loss
in cazapitance could easily result in a measured value of 60% of the
rated cazapitance.

** Fraid the ESR would have gone so high the electro cap would not be
doing
its job long before that.

Correct.

** Goody - another one.

I've seen some loss of cazapitance with high ESR cazapitors but not
all of them.

** Purely academic to even measure it.

Yep.

** Goody - another one.

ESR increase is a much better indication of impending failure than
cazapitance loss.

** Goody - this it what you missed previously.

Well, ok. I'll admit that your statement is a bit clearer. Please
don't let it go to your head.

** Goody - another one.

This is why service techs use ESR meters to find bad and failing electro
caps and not capacitance meters.

Yeah, yeah...

** Smug prick.

Damn right. I'm also arrogant, self centered, self righteous,
egotistical, and believe the world revolves around me.

** Goody - another one.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm

I bought the Dick Smith ESR tester designed by Bob Parker. Really
nice and handy (as long as I remember to discharge the cap before
testing).

** Bob designed the project single handed and " Electronics Australia "
magazine published it - that meant it was available for any kit supplier
to market as a kit. However the programmed uP was available only from
Bob.

Dick Smith Electronics was one of four retailers in Australia that did a
kit
and included the uP - one of them did not.

So the unit is the " Bob Parker ESR meter" or "Electronics Australia ESR
meter".

Ummm... thanks. Actually, I lied.

** Goody - yet another one.

Mr. Liebermann last seen crashing in flames over enemy lines ......



...... Phil

 

[mm]

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:37:29 -0800, none@given.now (Joe) wrote:

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well, I'm not happy to hear this because I have their DVDR 6765 (or
some 4 digit number beginning with 6) the latest one they've sold and
it's nearing two years of age.

There's only one other model** out there with a hard drive, by another
company. and I hear it has fewer features.

This one could be better too, and they've had time to upgrade the
firmware, which is possible, but haven't done so. (But it still works
pretty easily and records DVDs or 160 hours on the harddrive, and can
copy from one to the other.)

**Mine is made for OTA or cable. Most such things seem to be made for
people with only cable or satellite, but even then I guess there
aren't many models suitable for a given signal supplier.