Tesla has been FAKING range estimates...

[Ricky]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:51:19 PM UTC-4, chrisq wrote:

On 8/12/23 05:13, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 6:47:57 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/08/lawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints/?utm_email=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&lctg=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&active=no&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fwww.mercurynews.com%2f2023%2f08%2f08%2flawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints%2f&utm_campaign=bang-mult-nl-wednesday-morning-report-nl&utm_content=manual

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

They haven\'t been faking anything. They\'ve just set their gear to show an optimistic estimate of how far you could get if you didn\'t driver there all that fast.

That\'s just the free market serving you in a way that makes the product look better than it is. Do you want a government mandated \"truth in range estimate\" regulation? It\'s what you are asking for.

Should at least give expected range under various climate conditions.
Be honest about the fact that range suffers in winter conditions,
exacerbated further by the need for internal heating.

You continue to show that you don\'t understand BEVs. It is not \"winter conditions\" that reduces range, it is cold batteries. Otherwise, the winter range is the same. The battery can be kept warm by charging just prior to starting out, at no extra cost! Then you have the full range on every trip.

Do you understand that?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 7:04:47 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

On 8/13/2023 3:51 PM, chrisq wrote:
Should at least give expected range under various climate conditions.
Be honest about the fact that range suffers in winter conditions,
exacerbated further by the need for internal heating.

Many complaints at present and growing awareness of the limitations
of the current models. It will take a revolution in battery
tech to really make it work, just for starters...
At best, hybrids will fill the need. BEVs will likely fall out of grace
as a potential solution as their TCOs will remain high -- esp wrt hybrids..

A better solution is to convince people to drive smaller vehicles
and.or scale the vehicles to the most common \"single occupant\"
scenario. It\'s embarassing to need ~4000 pounds of conveyance to
get around when, in the limiting case, my two feet (0 pounds)
can do the same -- if the places I visited were nearer (a 2 mile
radius is about all that\'s practical, on foot)

Conveyances for single occupants are either some form of motorcycle/scooter
(hardly appropriate for large segments of the population and almost always
uncomfortable with the rider exposed to the elements, even if they *could*
transport parcels beyond theirselves.).

Hybrids have just one issue. They don\'t solve any problems we care about. The real problem is CO2 production. It needs to go to zero. Cutting CO2 production from cars in half is pointless. Hybrids use an ICE to charge the battery which powers the electric motor. So, in many ways, they are the worst possible solution.

I don\'t know how anyone could fail to understand this.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 8:09:34 PM UTC-4, chrisq wrote:

On 8/13/23 23:53, Flyguy wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 4:02:08 PM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 3:51:19 PM UTC-7, chrisq wrote:
On 8/12/23 05:13, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 6:47:57 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/08/lawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints/?utm_email=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&lctg=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&active=no&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fwww.mercurynews.com%2f2023%2f08%2f08%2flawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints%2f&utm_campaign=bang-mult-nl-wednesday-morning-report-nl&utm_content=manual

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

They haven\'t been faking anything. They\'ve just set their gear to show an optimistic estimate of how far you could get if you didn\'t driver there all that fast.

That\'s just the free market serving you in a way that makes the product look better than it is. Do you want a government mandated \"truth in range estimate\" regulation? It\'s what you are asking for.

Should at least give expected range under various climate conditions.
Be honest about the fact that range suffers in winter conditions,
exacerbated further by the need for internal heating.
We are know the actual mileage is a great deal less than marketed mileage. Battery capacity in KWhr is a better indicator. Just multiple it by around 3.

I suggest you take a poll and ask the general public what a KWHr is, even spell it out: kilowatt hour, and see how many people can answer (correctly). I expect it to be in the neighborhood of 1 in 10 to, more likely, 1 in 100. People, other other hand, understand \"miles.\"
Right, and additionally, usable KWh depends on driving style, since a
lower power results in lower resistive and other losses in the battery
and thus, less wasted power than foot to the metal style.

ICE tech has had 100+ years of development and is a very tough act to
beat, or even equal...

And yet, with all that advancement in technology, they have completely failed to find a way to not produce CO2. That\'s a very easy act to follow.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Eddy Lee]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 4:53:53 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 4:02:08 PM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 3:51:19 PM UTC-7, chrisq wrote:
On 8/12/23 05:13, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 6:47:57 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/08/lawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints/?utm_email=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&lctg=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&active=no&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fwww.mercurynews..com%2f2023%2f08%2f08%2flawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints%2f&utm_campaign=bang-mult-nl-wednesday-morning-report-nl&utm_content=manual

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

They haven\'t been faking anything. They\'ve just set their gear to show an optimistic estimate of how far you could get if you didn\'t driver there all that fast.

That\'s just the free market serving you in a way that makes the product look better than it is. Do you want a government mandated \"truth in range estimate\" regulation? It\'s what you are asking for.

Should at least give expected range under various climate conditions.
Be honest about the fact that range suffers in winter conditions,
exacerbated further by the need for internal heating.
We are know the actual mileage is a great deal less than marketed mileage. Battery capacity in KWhr is a better indicator. Just multiple it by around 3.
I suggest you take a poll and ask the general public what a KWHr is, even spell it out: kilowatt hour, and see how many people can answer (correctly). I expect it to be in the neighborhood of 1 in 10 to, more likely, 1 in 100. People, other other hand, understand \"miles.\"

May be so for general public. But for EV buyers/owners, they should know, since it is most of the cost of an EV. Anyway, the EV buyers/owners are complaining, not the general public.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/13/2023 5:38 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:

We are know the actual mileage is a great deal less than marketed mileage. Battery capacity in KWhr is a better indicator. Just multiple it by around 3.
I suggest you take a poll and ask the general public what a KWHr is, even spell it out: kilowatt hour, and see how many people can answer (correctly). I expect it to be in the neighborhood of 1 in 10 to, more likely, 1 in 100. People, other other hand, understand \"miles.\"

May be so for general public. But for EV buyers/owners, they should know, since it is most of the cost of an EV. Anyway, the EV buyers/owners are complaining, not the general public.

Of course! If *I* got duped, *I\'d* complain, too!

My ICE gets a bit better mileage than was advertised at time of purchase.
Despite being 8 years old, *my* driving habits and living in a place where
the ACbrrr runs *continuously* (it\'s 80F in January, wouldn\'t YOU want
to run it?)

Highway mileage is almost 20% *better* than the original estimate.

When I fill up, I get a new estimate of the miles in the tank. I\'ve
tracked this for *every* fillup (implied MPG vs actual MPG) and it\'s
been spot on. The car has never LIED to me!

The average age of a car is about 12 years, IIRC. How happy will the
EV owners holding their vehicles longer than 12 years (to compensate for
the owners wanting to replace them faster than 12 years) be about the
performance from their aging batteries? Or, the costs they have incurred
to rejuvenate/replace them?

 

[Flyguy]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 5:23:21 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:40:46 PM UTC-4, chrisq wrote:
On 8/13/23 20:54, John Walliker wrote:
On Sunday, 13 August 2023 at 21:45:47 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 1:07:30 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 19:07:07 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:48:30?PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 4:04:42?PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 13:47:52 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/08/lawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints/?utm_email=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&lctg=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&active=no&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fwww.mercurynews.com%2f2023%2f08%2f08%2flawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints%2f&utm_campaign=bang-mult-nl-wednesday-morning-report-nl&utm_content=manual


Why don\'t they just change the scaling of the odometer?

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

When the Tesla semi starts getting used, truck drivers won\'t be so
wussy as the car owners. Don\'t mess with truck drivers.
What do you mean by \"wussy\"? Is that actually expecting the performance that the car tells you?

Here is an example of a severely underperforming EV, this time a Ford pickup:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
AFAIAA, all these manufacturers quote figures for ideal conditions.
Consequently, if you go up a hill, you\'ll get less mileage. There are
many other examples. As electronic designers, no one here should be
unfamiliar with the \'ideal\' concept.
As an aside, someone told me the other day that BMW are falling out of
love with EVs due to lack of infrastructure and concerns over battery
recycling and are switching production back to ICE cars.
No automaker gives mileage figures for \"ideal\" conditions. The government has driving conditions defined and everyone uses the same conditions. It has been this way for ICE for decades and is no different for BEVs.

It\'s rather funny that anyone things an automaker is \"switching\" back to ICE. Everyone is converting to BEVs as fast as they can ramp up. It\'s just that some automakers don\'t make cars that are as good as other brands, regardless of the hype.

Its more complicated than it might seem.. For example:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66172158
John

Yes, they have obviously done their sums and worked out that the EV
revolution will take decades, despite all the hype, so are hedging
their bets on ICE being around for a long time yet.

The media are at last starting to wake up to the fact that the net
zero thing isn\'t going to happen any time soon. Why ?: Because it\'s
targets are not deliverable. The ex CEO of UK National Grid in
the press, DT, from memory, saying that the required infrastructure,
generation, network, substations and individual properties will all
need a major upgrade, costing anything up to a trillion and taking
20-30 years to get in place.
That is probably true for the UK. But, in countries with first world infrastructure, it will require relatively little investment in the grid. Mostly it will just be the addition of 30A, 240V charge points, which can already be accommodated in the vast majority of homes.

I get that you don\'t know much about the topic, because you clearly, have never looked at it from a realistic perspective. Once you stop promoting all the hype, and look at the issues realistically, you will see BEVs are immensely practical and a significant advancement over ICE vehicles.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

That is, simply, not true. The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L2 chargers as I already pointed out in a previous post.. Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance that part of the grid. Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 19:15:49 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy
<soar2morrow@yahoo.com> wrote in
<6e185254-8feb-448a-a8ee-08bb2cf18651n@googlegroups.com>:

The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L2 chargers as I already pointed out in a previous post.
Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance that part of the grid.
Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735

+1

Here in the Netherlands the grid is already so much overloaded that in some places new companies that need lots of power
cannot even get a net connection.
We have plans for 2 new nuclear power plants, that will take time.
Rebuilding electrical infrastructure will take time too.
Keeping some vehicles powered by gasoline or whatever for emergency services is, in my view, a must.
Else one hacker, one strong solar eruption, one high altitude nuke and you country is dead...
Redundancy is a good thing.
Climate WILL change, we need all the power generating systems we can get online to cope with that.
The CO2 fear snake oil polar bear counting snake oil selling salesmen are a danger to humanity.

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 10:15:54 PM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 5:23:21 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:40:46 PM UTC-4, chrisq wrote:
On 8/13/23 20:54, John Walliker wrote:
On Sunday, 13 August 2023 at 21:45:47 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 1:07:30 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 19:07:07 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:48:30?PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 4:04:42?PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 13:47:52 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/08/lawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints/?utm_email=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&lctg=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&active=no&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fwww.mercurynews.com%2f2023%2f08%2f08%2flawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints%2f&utm_campaign=bang-mult-nl-wednesday-morning-report-nl&utm_content=manual


Why don\'t they just change the scaling of the odometer?

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

When the Tesla semi starts getting used, truck drivers won\'t be so
wussy as the car owners. Don\'t mess with truck drivers.
What do you mean by \"wussy\"? Is that actually expecting the performance that the car tells you?

Here is an example of a severely underperforming EV, this time a Ford pickup:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
AFAIAA, all these manufacturers quote figures for ideal conditions.
Consequently, if you go up a hill, you\'ll get less mileage. There are
many other examples. As electronic designers, no one here should be
unfamiliar with the \'ideal\' concept.
As an aside, someone told me the other day that BMW are falling out of
love with EVs due to lack of infrastructure and concerns over battery
recycling and are switching production back to ICE cars.
No automaker gives mileage figures for \"ideal\" conditions. The government has driving conditions defined and everyone uses the same conditions. It has been this way for ICE for decades and is no different for BEVs.

It\'s rather funny that anyone things an automaker is \"switching\" back to ICE. Everyone is converting to BEVs as fast as they can ramp up. It\'s just that some automakers don\'t make cars that are as good as other brands, regardless of the hype.

Its more complicated than it might seem.. For example:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66172158
John

Yes, they have obviously done their sums and worked out that the EV
revolution will take decades, despite all the hype, so are hedging
their bets on ICE being around for a long time yet.

The media are at last starting to wake up to the fact that the net
zero thing isn\'t going to happen any time soon. Why ?: Because it\'s
targets are not deliverable. The ex CEO of UK National Grid in
the press, DT, from memory, saying that the required infrastructure,
generation, network, substations and individual properties will all
need a major upgrade, costing anything up to a trillion and taking
20-30 years to get in place.
That is probably true for the UK. But, in countries with first world infrastructure, it will require relatively little investment in the grid. Mostly it will just be the addition of 30A, 240V charge points, which can already be accommodated in the vast majority of homes.

I get that you don\'t know much about the topic, because you clearly, have never looked at it from a realistic perspective. Once you stop promoting all the hype, and look at the issues realistically, you will see BEVs are immensely practical and a significant advancement over ICE vehicles.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
That is, simply, not true. The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L2 chargers as I already pointed out in a previous post. Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance that part of the grid. Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735

Against my better judgement I will discuss this with you. But as soon as you start getting offensive and not discussing the facts, I will no longer respond.

From the first link, “There are places even today [in the city] where we can’t even take one more heat pump without having to rebuild the portion of the [electrical distribution] system. Or we can’t even have one EV charger go in.” and immediately after that, \"Peak loading is the primary concern.\"

These two statements do not necessarily go together. The first statement is from Tomm Marshall, assistant director of utilities. He talks as if charging BEVs is exactly the same as adding another heat pump. Well, that may be true in terms of the way they treat such devices in the code. But, there\'s no reason for that.

BEVs have a great deal of flexibility in *when* they are charged. A very large majority of BEVs come home each day, only needing a few kWh of charge being added. The average daily drive in the US is around 40 miles, which is 10 kWh in most BEVs. That can be done from a 120V, 15A outlet overnight, presenting virtually an unnoticed additional load. The only upgrade to anything is the use of the charging timers already available in most BEVs and the federal mandate they be included in all new BEVs. Problem solved!

The second statement is dealt with by the same means. No charging at peak use times, only at off peak times. Problem solved.

This article also reports that the distribution transformers would need to be upgraded. This is an issue I\'ve wondered about. Where I am, there can be high demand on cold nights. That\'s strictly an issue for the local distribution in residential neighborhoods. But, using the numbers above, an extra 10 kWh from each home would barely be noticed against the backdrop of 3 to 5 kW heatpumps running all night, especially when this is still well below the daytime use.

I fully expect the local utilities to pull excuses to upgrade the local distribution grid. This is their turf. These companies are regulated, and their profits are set, in part, by the amount of capital invested. So, they love to bump that up, especially when they can get someone else to pay for it, like the government or the local customers.

Don\'t be as gullible as the utilities want you to be. BEV charging will be done mostly at night with very little impact on the grid, local or regional. It won\'t require any additional generation or transmission. BEV charging can be done largely by more fully using the facilities we already have.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 10:48:08 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 19:15:49 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy
soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
6e185254-8feb-448a...@googlegroups.com>:
The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L2 chargers as I already pointed out in a previous post.
Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance that part of the grid.
Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735
+1

Here in the Netherlands the grid is already so much overloaded that in some places new companies that need lots of power
cannot even get a net connection.
We have plans for 2 new nuclear power plants, that will take time.
Rebuilding electrical infrastructure will take time too.
Keeping some vehicles powered by gasoline or whatever for emergency services is, in my view, a must.
Else one hacker, one strong solar eruption, one high altitude nuke and you country is dead...
Redundancy is a good thing.
Climate WILL change, we need all the power generating systems we can get online to cope with that.
The CO2 fear snake oil polar bear counting snake oil selling salesmen are a danger to humanity.

So, if you plug in your BEV and set it to charge from midnight to 6 AM, it will bring down the grid?

Why can\'t you be rational about this???

BTW, why is the Netherlands a third world country when it comes to providing electricity? What is holding them back this time?

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Flyguy]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 8:04:30 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 10:15:54 PM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 5:23:21 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:40:46 PM UTC-4, chrisq wrote:
On 8/13/23 20:54, John Walliker wrote:
On Sunday, 13 August 2023 at 21:45:47 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 1:07:30 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 19:07:07 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:48:30?PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 4:04:42?PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 13:47:52 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/08/lawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints/?utm_email=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&lctg=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&active=no&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fwww.mercurynews.com%2f2023%2f08%2f08%2flawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints%2f&utm_campaign=bang-mult-nl-wednesday-morning-report-nl&utm_content=manual


Why don\'t they just change the scaling of the odometer?

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

When the Tesla semi starts getting used, truck drivers won\'t be so
wussy as the car owners. Don\'t mess with truck drivers.
What do you mean by \"wussy\"? Is that actually expecting the performance that the car tells you?

Here is an example of a severely underperforming EV, this time a Ford pickup:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
AFAIAA, all these manufacturers quote figures for ideal conditions.
Consequently, if you go up a hill, you\'ll get less mileage. There are
many other examples. As electronic designers, no one here should be
unfamiliar with the \'ideal\' concept.
As an aside, someone told me the other day that BMW are falling out of
love with EVs due to lack of infrastructure and concerns over battery
recycling and are switching production back to ICE cars.
No automaker gives mileage figures for \"ideal\" conditions. The government has driving conditions defined and everyone uses the same conditions. It has been this way for ICE for decades and is no different for BEVs.

It\'s rather funny that anyone things an automaker is \"switching\" back to ICE. Everyone is converting to BEVs as fast as they can ramp up. It\'s just that some automakers don\'t make cars that are as good as other brands, regardless of the hype.

Its more complicated than it might seem.. For example:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66172158
John

Yes, they have obviously done their sums and worked out that the EV
revolution will take decades, despite all the hype, so are hedging
their bets on ICE being around for a long time yet.

The media are at last starting to wake up to the fact that the net
zero thing isn\'t going to happen any time soon. Why ?: Because it\'s
targets are not deliverable. The ex CEO of UK National Grid in
the press, DT, from memory, saying that the required infrastructure,
generation, network, substations and individual properties will all
need a major upgrade, costing anything up to a trillion and taking
20-30 years to get in place.
That is probably true for the UK. But, in countries with first world infrastructure, it will require relatively little investment in the grid. Mostly it will just be the addition of 30A, 240V charge points, which can already be accommodated in the vast majority of homes.

I get that you don\'t know much about the topic, because you clearly, have never looked at it from a realistic perspective. Once you stop promoting all the hype, and look at the issues realistically, you will see BEVs are immensely practical and a significant advancement over ICE vehicles.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
That is, simply, not true. The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L2 chargers as I already pointed out in a previous post. Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance that part of the grid. Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735
Against my better judgement I will discuss this with you. But as soon as you start getting offensive and not discussing the facts, I will no longer respond.

From the first link, “There are places even today [in the city] where we can’t even take one more heat pump without having to rebuild the portion of the [electrical distribution] system. Or we can’t even have one EV charger go in.” and immediately after that, \"Peak loading is the primary concern.\"

These two statements do not necessarily go together. The first statement is from Tomm Marshall, assistant director of utilities. He talks as if charging BEVs is exactly the same as adding another heat pump. Well, that may be true in terms of the way they treat such devices in the code. But, there\'s no reason for that.

He didn\'t say they went together, but they might. A friend of mine lives in Palo Alto and they wanted to put in another heat pump. This required an electrical upgrade that took over a YEAR to get approved. The same would go for an L2 charger.

BEVs have a great deal of flexibility in *when* they are charged. A very large majority of BEVs come home each day, only needing a few kWh of charge being added. The average daily drive in the US is around 40 miles, which is 10 kWh in most BEVs. That can be done from a 120V, 15A outlet overnight, presenting virtually an unnoticed additional load. The only upgrade to anything is the use of the charging timers already available in most BEVs and the federal mandate they be included in all new BEVs. Problem solved!

This is the irony of the situation. That over-night low cost power is being generated by COAL FIRED plants because they are the cheapest. As there is a shift from coal to solar that cheap nighttime power will vanish and be shifted to the daytime. This means charging during the day at work.

The second statement is dealt with by the same means. No charging at peak use times, only at off peak times. Problem solved.

You are just moving peak times to nighttime. And this does not address the imbalancing of the grid by millions of L2 chargers. There just is no free lunch.

This article also reports that the distribution transformers would need to be upgraded. This is an issue I\'ve wondered about. Where I am, there can be high demand on cold nights. That\'s strictly an issue for the local distribution in residential neighborhoods. But, using the numbers above, an extra 10 kWh from each home would barely be noticed against the backdrop of 3 to 5 kW heatpumps running all night, especially when this is still well below the daytime use.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/electric-vehicles

In contrast, shifting to daytime charging would minimize the impact of EVs on the grid. “Right now, we have a lot of power available in the evening,” says study senior author Ram Rajagopal, an electrical engineer at Stanford University. “However, when we look at 2035, the grid is predominantly solar.”

By changing the emphasis of charging toward the daytime, “we don’t really have to add any resources to the grid,” Rajagopal says. “We’re not saying that everyone should move to daytime charging. We think the emphasis should be a more balanced approach, more tilted toward daytime charging.”

I fully expect the local utilities to pull excuses to upgrade the local distribution grid. This is their turf. These companies are regulated, and their profits are set, in part, by the amount of capital invested. So, they love to bump that up, especially when they can get someone else to pay for it, like the government or the local customers.

You can expect whatever you want, but the utilities are the experts at what it will take to deliver the goods. Calif. ignored their advice and has suffered rolling blackouts as a consequence. I will trust an electrical engineer a 1000 times more than a politician.

Don\'t be as gullible as the utilities want you to be. BEV charging will be done mostly at night with very little impact on the grid, local or regional. It won\'t require any additional generation or transmission. BEV charging can be done largely by more fully using the facilities we already have.

I am just presenting the facts. Platitudes will not erase them.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<c05fa772-78a1-4e59-8e3e-84caef890bd9n@googlegroups.com>:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 10:48:08 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrot=
e:
On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 19:15:49 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy=

soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
6e185254-8feb-448a...@googlegroups.com>:
The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L2 c=
hargers as I already pointed out in a previous post.
Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance tha=
t part of the grid.
Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735
+1

Here in the Netherlands the grid is already so much overloaded that in some places new companies that need lots of power
cannot even get a net connection.
We have plans for 2 new nuclear power plants, that will take time.
Rebuilding electrical infrastructure will take time too.
Keeping some vehicles powered by gasoline or whatever for emergency services is, in my view, a must.
Else one hacker, one strong solar eruption, one high altitude nuke and you country is dead...
Redundancy is a good thing.
Climate WILL change, we need all the power generating systems we can get online to cope with that.
The CO2 fear snake oil polar bear counting snake oil selling salesmen are a danger to humanity.

So, if you plug in your BEV and set it to charge from midnight to 6 AM, it will bring down the grid?

Why can\'t you be rational about this???

Try reading the ieee.org links above,

BTW, why is the Netherlands a third world country when it comes to providing electricity?
What is holding them back this time?

We are way ahead adding charging points, it does suck on infrastructure.
The other problem is all the solar panels being added that feed back into the grid
the system was never designed for that.
Most wiring is underground here, only HV lines are over ground.
Takes a while to dig it all up I suppose.

As to the dangers to all your infrastructure:
Microsoft finds vulnerabilities it says could be used to shut down power plants
https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/08/microsoft-finds-vulnerabilities-it-says-could-be-used-to-shut-down-power-plants/

Better get a big tank with fuel in case disaster happens and a decent diesel to escape the area
None of the electric systems will work in your car, all them 1 Ohm resistors fused ;-)...
when that high altitude nuke triggers.
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/electromagnetic-pulse-from-a-nuclear-bomb-probably-wont-fry-your-quartz-watch
so your digital watch may survive!
Well it would likely be noon anyways on the doomsday clock.

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 11:35:31 PM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 8:04:30 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 10:15:54 PM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 5:23:21 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:40:46 PM UTC-4, chrisq wrote:
On 8/13/23 20:54, John Walliker wrote:
On Sunday, 13 August 2023 at 21:45:47 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 1:07:30 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 19:07:07 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:48:30?PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 4:04:42?PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 13:47:52 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/08/lawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints/?utm_email=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&lctg=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&active=no&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fwww.mercurynews.com%2f2023%2f08%2f08%2flawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints%2f&utm_campaign=bang-mult-nl-wednesday-morning-report-nl&utm_content=manual


Why don\'t they just change the scaling of the odometer?

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

When the Tesla semi starts getting used, truck drivers won\'t be so
wussy as the car owners. Don\'t mess with truck drivers.
What do you mean by \"wussy\"? Is that actually expecting the performance that the car tells you?

Here is an example of a severely underperforming EV, this time a Ford pickup:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
AFAIAA, all these manufacturers quote figures for ideal conditions.
Consequently, if you go up a hill, you\'ll get less mileage. There are
many other examples. As electronic designers, no one here should be
unfamiliar with the \'ideal\' concept.
As an aside, someone told me the other day that BMW are falling out of
love with EVs due to lack of infrastructure and concerns over battery
recycling and are switching production back to ICE cars.
No automaker gives mileage figures for \"ideal\" conditions. The government has driving conditions defined and everyone uses the same conditions. It has been this way for ICE for decades and is no different for BEVs.

It\'s rather funny that anyone things an automaker is \"switching\" back to ICE. Everyone is converting to BEVs as fast as they can ramp up. It\'s just that some automakers don\'t make cars that are as good as other brands, regardless of the hype.

Its more complicated than it might seem.. For example:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66172158
John

Yes, they have obviously done their sums and worked out that the EV
revolution will take decades, despite all the hype, so are hedging
their bets on ICE being around for a long time yet.

The media are at last starting to wake up to the fact that the net
zero thing isn\'t going to happen any time soon. Why ?: Because it\'s
targets are not deliverable. The ex CEO of UK National Grid in
the press, DT, from memory, saying that the required infrastructure,
generation, network, substations and individual properties will all
need a major upgrade, costing anything up to a trillion and taking
20-30 years to get in place.
That is probably true for the UK. But, in countries with first world infrastructure, it will require relatively little investment in the grid. Mostly it will just be the addition of 30A, 240V charge points, which can already be accommodated in the vast majority of homes.

I get that you don\'t know much about the topic, because you clearly, have never looked at it from a realistic perspective. Once you stop promoting all the hype, and look at the issues realistically, you will see BEVs are immensely practical and a significant advancement over ICE vehicles.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
That is, simply, not true. The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L2 chargers as I already pointed out in a previous post. Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance that part of the grid. Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735
Against my better judgement I will discuss this with you. But as soon as you start getting offensive and not discussing the facts, I will no longer respond.

From the first link, “There are places even today [in the city] where we can’t even take one more heat pump without having to rebuild the portion of the [electrical distribution] system. Or we can’t even have one EV charger go in.” and immediately after that, \"Peak loading is the primary concern.\"

These two statements do not necessarily go together. The first statement is from Tomm Marshall, assistant director of utilities. He talks as if charging BEVs is exactly the same as adding another heat pump. Well, that may be true in terms of the way they treat such devices in the code. But, there\'s no reason for that.
He didn\'t say they went together, but they might. A friend of mine lives in Palo Alto and they wanted to put in another heat pump. This required an electrical upgrade that took over a YEAR to get approved. The same would go for an L2 charger.

And that is exactly the point. The code is what needs to be modified, not the grid. Did you not follow the reasoning?

BEVs have a great deal of flexibility in *when* they are charged. A very large majority of BEVs come home each day, only needing a few kWh of charge being added. The average daily drive in the US is around 40 miles, which is 10 kWh in most BEVs. That can be done from a 120V, 15A outlet overnight, presenting virtually an unnoticed additional load. The only upgrade to anything is the use of the charging timers already available in most BEVs and the federal mandate they be included in all new BEVs. Problem solved!
This is the irony of the situation. That over-night low cost power is being generated by COAL FIRED plants because they are the cheapest. As there is a shift from coal to solar that cheap nighttime power will vanish and be shifted to the daytime. This means charging during the day at work.

A shift from coal to solar is only in your mind. The people who are responsible for planning these things actually understand the issues, which is not something you can say. The excess nighttime capacity, would be whatever it is they shut down from the day. Mostly that is gas based, because it can be spun up and down quickly, something that coal is less capable of.

The second statement is dealt with by the same means. No charging at peak use times, only at off peak times. Problem solved.
You are just moving peak times to nighttime. And this does not address the imbalancing of the grid by millions of L2 chargers. There just is no free lunch.

Dear God. I don\'t know why you can\'t understand something so simple. If the millions of L2 chargers operate at night, when loads are low and lots of excess generating capacity is available, the L2 chargers require no additional capacity in either generation or transmission.

This article also reports that the distribution transformers would need to be upgraded. This is an issue I\'ve wondered about. Where I am, there can be high demand on cold nights. That\'s strictly an issue for the local distribution in residential neighborhoods. But, using the numbers above, an extra 10 kWh from each home would barely be noticed against the backdrop of 3 to 5 kW heatpumps running all night, especially when this is still well below the daytime use.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/electric-vehicles

In contrast, shifting to daytime charging would minimize the impact of EVs on the grid. “Right now, we have a lot of power available in the evening,” says study senior author Ram Rajagopal, an electrical engineer at Stanford University. “However, when we look at 2035, the grid is predominantly solar.”

Not sure what is meant by \"evening\". The California peak times extend until 9 or 10 pm.


> By changing the emphasis of charging toward the daytime, “we don’t really have to add any resources to the grid,” Rajagopal says. “We’re not saying that everyone should move to daytime charging. We think the emphasis should be a more balanced approach, more tilted toward daytime charging.”

Daytime charging is useful to make full use of solar generated power, but it\'s not necessary, because there is so much excess generation at night. Using excess solar generation during the day is fine when available.

I fully expect the local utilities to pull excuses to upgrade the local distribution grid. This is their turf. These companies are regulated, and their profits are set, in part, by the amount of capital invested. So, they love to bump that up, especially when they can get someone else to pay for it, like the government or the local customers.
You can expect whatever you want, but the utilities are the experts at what it will take to deliver the goods. Calif. ignored their advice and has suffered rolling blackouts as a consequence. I will trust an electrical engineer a 1000 times more than a politician.

Utilities have agendas. I would hope you understand that.

Don\'t be as gullible as the utilities want you to be. BEV charging will be done mostly at night with very little impact on the grid, local or regional. It won\'t require any additional generation or transmission. BEV charging can be done largely by more fully using the facilities we already have.
I am just presenting the facts. Platitudes will not erase them.

Actually, you seem to be ignoring most of the facts, especially that BEVs can be charged at night, without any additional generation, or transmission. Yet you continue to debate what is important. Do you agree with the fact, that BEVs can be charged at night without adding generation or transmission to the grid?

If you do not, you are disputing a fact. If you do agree, then we don\'t need to discuss anything else.

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 12:13:36 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
c05fa772-78a1-4e59...@googlegroups.com>:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 10:48:08 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrot=
e:
On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 19:15:49 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy=

soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
6e185254-8feb-448a...@googlegroups.com>:
The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L2 c> >hargers as I already pointed out in a previous post.
Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance tha> >t part of the grid.
Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735
+1

Here in the Netherlands the grid is already so much overloaded that in some places new companies that need lots of power
cannot even get a net connection.
We have plans for 2 new nuclear power plants, that will take time.
Rebuilding electrical infrastructure will take time too.
Keeping some vehicles powered by gasoline or whatever for emergency services is, in my view, a must.
Else one hacker, one strong solar eruption, one high altitude nuke and you country is dead...
Redundancy is a good thing.
Climate WILL change, we need all the power generating systems we can get online to cope with that.
The CO2 fear snake oil polar bear counting snake oil selling salesmen are a danger to humanity.

So, if you plug in your BEV and set it to charge from midnight to 6 AM, it will bring down the grid?

Why can\'t you be rational about this???
Try reading the ieee.org links above,

I did, and I had responses to them, which you seem to be ignoring.

BTW, why is the Netherlands a third world country when it comes to providing electricity?
What is holding them back this time?
We are way ahead adding charging points,

\"Ahead\" of what???


> it does suck on infrastructure.

Only if you want people to charge at electricity peak use times. It would be very backwards thinking to promote that.

The other problem is all the solar panels being added that feed back into the grid
the system was never designed for that.

Which is not related to BEVs.

Most wiring is underground here, only HV lines are over ground.
Takes a while to dig it all up I suppose.

Why on earth are you stuck in the idea of digging up your perfectly good power lines? Yes, I can see why the electric grid in the Netherlands is like a third world country.

As to the dangers to all your infrastructure:
Microsoft finds vulnerabilities it says could be used to shut down power plants
https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/08/microsoft-finds-vulnerabilities-it-says-could-be-used-to-shut-down-power-plants/

You do tend to have problems with sticking to a topic of discussion.


> Better get a big tank with fuel in case disaster happens and a decent diesel to escape the area

What will you do then? There won\'t be gas or diesel stations to fuel your vehicles.

None of the electric systems will work in your car, all them 1 Ohm resistors fused ;-)...
when that high altitude nuke triggers.
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/electromagnetic-pulse-from-a-nuclear-bomb-probably-wont-fry-your-quartz-watch
so your digital watch may survive!
Well it would likely be noon anyways on the doomsday clock.

Yeah, you are right. But I put an aluminum foil hat on my BEVs, so I\'ll be ok.

Thanks for the conversation. It\'s always interesting to visit the nut house.

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 21:34:49 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<eac1d668-1267-453a-b36b-cbd803e39472n@googlegroups.com>:

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 12:13:36 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrot=
e:
On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky=

gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
c05fa772-78a1-4e59...@googlegroups.com>:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 10:48:08 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje w=
rot=
e:
On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 19:15:49 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fly=
guy=

soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
6e185254-8feb-448a...@googlegroups.com>:
The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L=
2 c=
hargers as I already pointed out in a previous post.
Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance =
tha=
t part of the grid.
Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735
+1

Here in the Netherlands the grid is already so much overloaded that in=
some places new companies that need lots of power
cannot even get a net connection.
We have plans for 2 new nuclear power plants, that will take time.
Rebuilding electrical infrastructure will take time too.
Keeping some vehicles powered by gasoline or whatever for emergency se=
rvices is, in my view, a must.
Else one hacker, one strong solar eruption, one high altitude nuke and=
you country is dead...
Redundancy is a good thing.
Climate WILL change, we need all the power generating systems we can g=
et online to cope with that.
The CO2 fear snake oil polar bear counting snake oil selling salesmen =
are a danger to humanity.

So, if you plug in your BEV and set it to charge from midnight to 6 AM, =
it will bring down the grid?

Why can\'t you be rational about this???
Try reading the ieee.org links above,

I did, and I had responses to them, which you seem to be ignoring.


BTW, why is the Netherlands a third world country when it comes to provi=
ding electricity?
What is holding them back this time?
We are way ahead adding charging points,

\"Ahead\" of what???


it does suck on infrastructure.

Only if you want people to charge at electricity peak use times. It would =
be very backwards thinking to promote that.


The other problem is all the solar panels being added that feed back into=
the grid
the system was never designed for that.

Which is not related to BEVs.


Most wiring is underground here, only HV lines are over ground.
Takes a while to dig it all up I suppose.

Why on earth are you stuck in the idea of digging up your perfectly good po=
wer lines? Yes, I can see why the electric grid in the Netherlands is like=
a third world country.


As to the dangers to all your infrastructure:
Microsoft finds vulnerabilities it says could be used to shut down power =
plants
https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/08/microsoft-finds-vulnerabilities-=
it-says-could-be-used-to-shut-down-power-plants/

You do tend to have problems with sticking to a topic of discussion.


Better get a big tank with fuel in case disaster happens and a decent die=
sel to escape the area

What will you do then? There won\'t be gas or diesel stations to fuel your =
vehicles.


None of the electric systems will work in your car, all them 1 Ohm resist=
ors fused ;-)...
when that high altitude nuke triggers.
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/electromagnetic-pulse-from-a-nuclear-bo=
mb-probably-wont-fry-your-quartz-watch
so your digital watch may survive!
Well it would likely be noon anyways on the doomsday clock.

Yeah, you are right. But I put an aluminum foil hat on my BEVs, so I\'ll be=
ok.

Thanks for the conversation. It\'s always interesting to visit the nut hous=
e.

Well you are realy going towards insults when you lose a discussion.
Twisting to make a reply...
All the time adding your Musk free miles adds.

Lemme do an experiment

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 9:48:49 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 10:13:34 PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 6:47:57 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/08/lawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints/?utm_email=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&lctg=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&active=no&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fwww.mercurynews.com%2f2023%2f08%2f08%2flawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints%2f&utm_campaign=bang-mult-nl-wednesday-morning-report-nl&utm_content=manual

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/
They haven\'t been faking anything. They\'ve just set their gear to show an optimistic estimate of how far you could get if you didn\'t driver there all that fast.

Hey Bozo, \"optimism\" is just another word for \"FAKED\", otherwise WHY did they switch back to a realistic estimate at half full?

Sewage Sweeper doesn\'t know what words mean, even if he does know what he\'d like them to mean. \"Faked\" implies deliberately using false information. \"Optmistic\" just implies assuming that the drive will chose a driving style that optimises range. By the time the battery is half-empty, the car has a better idea of the driving style that the driver has adopted for the particular route being driven

That\'s just the free market serving you in a way that makes the product look better than it is. Do you want a government mandated \"truth in range estimate\" regulation? It\'s what you are asking for.

Sure, why not have \"optimistic\" estimates of the strength of wood and steel - that would sure cut construction costs!

You can\'t influence the strength of the wood and steel in your house by varying your living style. You might be an exception - if you get your neighbours cross enough they can burn your house down.

> The conversation changes, however, when Tesla actively CANCELS service appointments with customers concerning range issues. This IS FRAUD!

It\'s more a realistic appreciation that customers can be unrealistic about rang estimates.

Would anybody want to talk to you about the subject?

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 9:53:53 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 4:02:08 PM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 3:51:19 PM UTC-7, chrisq wrote:
On 8/12/23 05:13, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 6:47:57 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/08/lawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints/?utm_email=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&lctg=75F424DF74BD75C39415D4E91D&active=no&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fwww.mercurynews..com%2f2023%2f08%2f08%2flawsuit-tesla-faked-driving-range-for-cars-created-special-unit-to-squelch-complaints%2f&utm_campaign=bang-mult-nl-wednesday-morning-report-nl&utm_content=manual

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

They haven\'t been faking anything. They\'ve just set their gear to show an optimistic estimate of how far you could get if you didn\'t driver there all that fast.

That\'s just the free market serving you in a way that makes the product look better than it is. Do you want a government mandated \"truth in range estimate\" regulation? It\'s what you are asking for.

Should at least give expected range under various climate conditions.
Be honest about the fact that range suffers in winter conditions,
exacerbated further by the need for internal heating.
We are know the actual mileage is a great deal less than marketed mileage. Battery capacity in KWhr is a better indicator. Just multiple it by around 3.

I suggest you take a poll and ask the general public what a KWHr is, even spell it out: kilowatt hour, and see how many people can answer (correctly). I expect it to be in the neighborhood of 1 in 10 to, more likely, 1 in 100. People, other other hand, understand \"miles.\"

What you want them to understand is \"gallons\", not \"miles\". In Australia they understand litres and kilometres.

Put people into electric cars and they get to understand klloWatt.hours very rapidly. You might be an exception.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 12:15:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 5:23:21 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:40:46 PM UTC-4, chrisq wrote:
On 8/13/23 20:54, John Walliker wrote:
On Sunday, 13 August 2023 at 21:45:47 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 1:07:30 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 19:07:07 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy <soar2...@yahoo..com> wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:48:30?PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 4:04:42?PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 13:47:52 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I get that you don\'t know much about the topic, because you clearly, have never looked at it from a realistic perspective. Once you stop promoting all the hype, and look at the issues realistically, you will see BEVs are immensely practical and a significant advancement over ICE vehicles.

That is, simply, not true. The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L2 chargers as I already pointed out in a previous post. Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance that part of the grid. Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735

All that they say is that the US power grid need work to bring it up to the state where it can cope with a lot of EVs.

That\'s going to cost money, but so will buying a lot of EV\'s, The fact that US national power grid wasn\'t designed with this in mind isn\'t any kind of statement that it can\'t be transformed to do what it is going to be asked to do.

https://www.itc-holdings.com/a-modern-power-grid/power-grid-history

That history goes back to 1882. The US power grid was never \"designed\"- it just grew and adapted. and it will grow and adapt to deal with electric vehicles and renewable energy, even if Sewage Sweeper can\'t imagine how.

Only a half-wit like Sewage Sweeper would read the links that he has a posted as meaning anything of the sort.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 1:35:31 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 8:04:30 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 10:15:54 PM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 5:23:21 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:40:46 PM UTC-4, chrisq wrote:
On 8/13/23 20:54, John Walliker wrote:
On Sunday, 13 August 2023 at 21:45:47 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 1:07:30 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 19:07:07 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:48:30?PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 4:04:42?PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 13:47:52 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy <soar2....@yahoo.com> wrote:

I get that you don\'t know much about the topic, because you clearly, have never looked at it from a realistic perspective. Once you stop promoting all the hype, and look at the issues realistically, you will see BEVs are immensely practical and a significant advancement over ICE vehicles.

That is, simply, not true. The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L2 chargers as I already pointed out in a previous post. Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance that part of the grid. Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735

Against my better judgement I will discuss this with you. But as soon as you start getting offensive and not discussing the facts, I will no longer respond.

From the first link, “There are places even today [in the city] where we can’t even take one more heat pump without having to rebuild the portion of the [electrical distribution] system. Or we can’t even have one EV charger go in.” and immediately after that, \"Peak loading is the primary concern.\"

These two statements do not necessarily go together. The first statement is from Tomm Marshall, assistant director of utilities. He talks as if charging BEVs is exactly the same as adding another heat pump. Well, that may be true in terms of the way they treat such devices in the code. But, there\'s no reason for that.

He didn\'t say they went together, but they might. A friend of mine lives in Palo Alto and they wanted to put in another heat pump. This required an electrical upgrade that took over a YEAR to get approved. The same would go for an L2 charger.

So what. It means that they are in the process of upgrading the capacity of their local distribution system. Clearly, they should have started on that earlier.

BEVs have a great deal of flexibility in *when* they are charged. A very large majority of BEVs come home each day, only needing a few kWh of charge being added. The average daily drive in the US is around 40 miles, which is 10 kWh in most BEVs. That can be done from a 120V, 15A outlet overnight, presenting virtually an unnoticed additional load. The only upgrade to anything is the use of the charging timers already available in most BEVs and the federal mandate they be included in all new BEVs. Problem solved!

This is the irony of the situation. That over-night low cost power is being generated by COAL FIRED plants because they are the cheapest.

They aren\'t. Solar and wind both generate power more cheaply. Solar doesn\'t generate power overnight, but you can store it in batteries during the day, and it\'s cheaper to supply power from those batteries than it is to burn coal.

As there is a shift from coal to solar that cheap nighttime power will vanish and be shifted to the daytime. This means charging during the day at work.

The second statement is dealt with by the same means. No charging at peak use times, only at off peak times. Problem solved.

You are just moving peak times to nighttime. And this does not address the imbalancing of the grid by millions of L2 chargers. There just is no free lunch.

The grid is going to have to be changed to cope with new load and new power sources. It has been changing ever since it was first set up back in 1882.
It isn\'t a trivial task, but not in the least over-whelming.

This article also reports that the distribution transformers would need to be upgraded. This is an issue I\'ve wondered about. Where I am, there can be high demand on cold nights. That\'s strictly an issue for the local distribution in residential neighborhoods. But, using the numbers above, an extra 10 kWh from each home would barely be noticed against the backdrop of 3 to 5 kW heatpumps running all night, especially when this is still well below the daytime use.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/electric-vehicles

In contrast, shifting to daytime charging would minimize the impact of EVs on the grid. “Right now, we have a lot of power available in the evening,” says study senior author Ram Rajagopal, an electrical engineer at Stanford University. “However, when we look at 2035, the grid is predominantly solar.”

By changing the emphasis of charging toward the daytime, “we don’t really have to add any resources to the grid,” Rajagopal says. “We’re not saying that everyone should move to daytime charging. We think the emphasis should be a more balanced approach, more tilted toward daytime charging.”

I fully expect the local utilities to pull excuses to upgrade the local distribution grid. This is their turf. These companies are regulated, and their profits are set, in part, by the amount of capital invested. So, they love to bump that up, especially when they can get someone else to pay for it, like the government or the local customers.

You can expect whatever you want, but the utilities are the experts at what it will take to deliver the goods. Calif. ignored their advice and has suffered rolling blackouts as a consequence. I will trust an electrical engineer a 1000 times more than a politician.

But you will understand what he says in the way that suits your argument, and can be relied to ignore what he is actually saying.

Don\'t be as gullible as the utilities want you to be. BEV charging will be done mostly at night with very little impact on the grid, local or regional. It won\'t require any additional generation or transmission. BEV charging can be done largely by more fully using the facilities we already have.

I am just presenting the facts. Platitudes will not erase them.

Sewage Sweeper presents \"the facts\" as he understands them. His understanding is imperfect, and serves what he wants to feel himself to be able say.

What he wants to say is mostly utter nonsense.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 21:34:49 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 12:13:36?AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
c05fa772-78a1-4e59...@googlegroups.com>:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 10:48:08?PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrot=
e:
On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 19:15:49 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy=

soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
6e185254-8feb-448a...@googlegroups.com>:
The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L2 c=
hargers as I already pointed out in a previous post.
Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance tha=
t part of the grid.
Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735
+1

Here in the Netherlands the grid is already so much overloaded that in some places new companies that need lots of power
cannot even get a net connection.
We have plans for 2 new nuclear power plants, that will take time.
Rebuilding electrical infrastructure will take time too.
Keeping some vehicles powered by gasoline or whatever for emergency services is, in my view, a must.
Else one hacker, one strong solar eruption, one high altitude nuke and you country is dead...
Redundancy is a good thing.
Climate WILL change, we need all the power generating systems we can get online to cope with that.
The CO2 fear snake oil polar bear counting snake oil selling salesmen are a danger to humanity.

So, if you plug in your BEV and set it to charge from midnight to 6 AM, it will bring down the grid?

Why can\'t you be rational about this???
Try reading the ieee.org links above,

I did, and I had responses to them, which you seem to be ignoring.


BTW, why is the Netherlands a third world country when it comes to providing electricity?
What is holding them back this time?
We are way ahead adding charging points,

\"Ahead\" of what???


it does suck on infrastructure.

Only if you want people to charge at electricity peak use times. It would be very backwards thinking to promote that.


The other problem is all the solar panels being added that feed back into the grid
the system was never designed for that.

Which is not related to BEVs.


Most wiring is underground here, only HV lines are over ground.
Takes a while to dig it all up I suppose.

Why on earth are you stuck in the idea of digging up your perfectly good power lines? Yes, I can see why the electric grid in the Netherlands is like a third world country.


As to the dangers to all your infrastructure:
Microsoft finds vulnerabilities it says could be used to shut down power plants
https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/08/microsoft-finds-vulnerabilities-it-says-could-be-used-to-shut-down-power-plants/

You do tend to have problems with sticking to a topic of discussion.


Better get a big tank with fuel in case disaster happens and a decent diesel to escape the area

What will you do then? There won\'t be gas or diesel stations to fuel your vehicles.


None of the electric systems will work in your car, all them 1 Ohm resistors fused ;-)...
when that high altitude nuke triggers.
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/electromagnetic-pulse-from-a-nuclear-bomb-probably-wont-fry-your-quartz-watch
so your digital watch may survive!
Well it would likely be noon anyways on the doomsday clock.

Yeah, you are right. But I put an aluminum foil hat on my BEVs, so I\'ll be ok.

Thanks for the conversation. It\'s always interesting to visit the nut house.

You seem to be constantly tub-thumping for the EV industry and have
been for quite a while now. Do you have an undeclared interest here?
Do you own Tesla stock or something? Nothing to be gained in berating
and insulting others for your own poor investment decisions. You
backed a loser, pal.

 

[jeroen]

On 2023-08-14 06:13, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
c05fa772-78a1-4e59-8e3e-84caef890bd9n@googlegroups.com>:

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 10:48:08 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrot=
e:
On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Aug 2023 19:15:49 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy=

soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
6e185254-8feb-448a...@googlegroups.com>:
The nation\'s power grid was not designed to accommodate millions of L2 c=
hargers as I already pointed out in a previous post.
Peppering a neighborhood with a platoon of L2 chargers can imbalance tha=
t part of the grid.
Here are the IEEE articles yet again:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463735
+1

Here in the Netherlands the grid is already so much overloaded that in some places new companies that need lots of power
cannot even get a net connection.
We have plans for 2 new nuclear power plants, that will take time.
Rebuilding electrical infrastructure will take time too.
Keeping some vehicles powered by gasoline or whatever for emergency services is, in my view, a must.
Else one hacker, one strong solar eruption, one high altitude nuke and you country is dead...
Redundancy is a good thing.
Climate WILL change, we need all the power generating systems we can get online to cope with that.
The CO2 fear snake oil polar bear counting snake oil selling salesmen are a danger to humanity.

So, if you plug in your BEV and set it to charge from midnight to 6 AM, it will bring down the grid?

Why can\'t you be rational about this???

Try reading the ieee.org links above,


BTW, why is the Netherlands a third world country when it comes to providing electricity?
What is holding them back this time?

We are way ahead adding charging points, it does suck on infrastructure.
The other problem is all the solar panels being added that feed back into the grid
the system was never designed for that.
Most wiring is underground here, only HV lines are over ground.
Takes a while to dig it all up I suppose.

As to the dangers to all your infrastructure:
Microsoft finds vulnerabilities it says could be used to shut down power plants
https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/08/microsoft-finds-vulnerabilities-it-says-could-be-used-to-shut-down-power-plants/
[...]

What nonsense is this??? *Micro$oft* finds vulnerabilities in other vendor\'s
software? Let them clean out their own stable first!

Besides, the so-called vulnerabilities can only be exploited once the hacker
has successfully authenticated. Small wonder!

Jeroen Belleman