Telephone scum?

[KLR]

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 21:31:48 +1000, "Rudolf Ladyzhenskii"
<rudolfl@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

Oh, yes right. And they will expect me to pay bills? I am certainly not
going to.

Rudolf

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:2i7u4sFk5d7bU1@uni-berlin.de...

"Rudolf Ladyzhenskii"

I did not sign -- all I did was asking for paperwork..


** They do not need a signature to "churn" you.


Oh, yes, they do.


** They can, they do - and will suffer not for doing so.


They need some way of prooving I agreed and I did not give
them any agreement, verbal or written.


** They can churn you by phone alone.


They use "voice verification" where you are asked qwuestions and you
should clearly answer YES.


** Huh ?? There is no such thing. Plenty of folk have found their
phone accounts churned to companies they have never even heard from.




............ Phil



I would have to agree with Phil on this - and also advise Rudolf to be

extremely careful and not to mess around unless he wants to be without
a phone for possibly days, copping substantial late and reconnection
fees and the massive potential losses that could result from not
having a work related phone in operation.

As one of my colleagues found the hard way in a very similar situation

to what is being described here - refusal to pay a (false and
unjustified in his case) bill did result in the phone being
disconnected within a very short time after the reminder bill - and
with no advance warning - then taking many DAYS after payment before
being reconnected (and a $50+ reconnection fee PER LINE).

The Telecommunications industry ombudsman will be more than happy to

sympathise with you - but admitted at the time to basically being
unable to do a thing to help you.

Telstra won't do a thing either and they and the company in question

(who claimed to be a telstra reseller) happily passed the blame back
and forth to each other, and led the conversation around and around in
circles without resolution when the matter was being discussed.

I would ring Telstra or whoever your former provider was - and make
absolutely sure that the phone and all sections of the service (line
rental, STD calls and Local calls) are still with that provider.

Another trick (i was told of this - but dont know the actual story)

is for the rogue phone company to file a bad credit report on you if
you dispute and don't pay so you will find it difficult to be accepted
elsewhere and therefore be stuck with them.

 

[KLR]

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:30:21 +1000, "Rudolf Ladyzhenskii"
<rudolfl@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

Hi, all

I got an interesting phone call today. A lady with strong acsent informed me
that my phone number was chosen to be connected through a company called
"Call Australia" (at least this is what I understood). It is not part of
Telstra and they offer great rates for STD, international and mobiles. And
they said that this offer is only available for registered businesses, so
she proceeded to get my name and ABN (they had company name and address on
their system).
She wanted me to join on spot and I said that I am not going to until I see
something in writing, so shhe promised to send me a fax.

The next thing I know, a male picks up the phone (with strong acsent again)
and tries to put me through automatic verification prrocess (where machine
asks you questions, you answer YES and it is being recorded).

My called ID phone showed that call was from overseas. When asked, this
person told me that they are in Station Stret, West Melbourne and they had
technical difficulties, so call is probably routed through USA.

I could be wrong with how the modern phone system works - but I feel

that that excuse is a total load of bullshit.

over the last 5 years or so that I have had caller ID - without

exception - every incoming international call I have ever had shows as
"unavailable".

Unless I know the actual person/company already - I NEVER regard calls

without a caller ID as being legit and will not do business with them,
and tell them so. I will not put my trust or business in someone who
hides their identity like this and tell them so.

Anyway, I told him again that I am not signing up for anything, until I have
terms and conditions in writing. He said that I can always cancel the
service -- in writing withing first 10 days or by phone call later. I
repeated my request about paperwork and he finally agreed to fax something
to me and call me later on.

There is nothing on the fax machine as I am writing this message and whole
things smells funny. Does anyone know anything about this sort of things?
Could that be a genuine offer or it is a known scum?

I have found that your instincts often prove correct. I would call

your existing provider - explain what has happened - and get them to
check that you are still connected to them. IF you arent - then get
them to reconnect you back to them immediately. IF all is ok - try
confirming again in a week or 2 to make sure that it hasnt changed
meanwhile.

I will let you know if I receive anything from them,

Thanks,
Rudolf

From bitter experience - I really would have to advise that you leave

your service with Telstra. I don't particularly like them - but at
least there arent problems with them and the phone always works.

If you want cheap STD calls - then dial the prefix for your preferred
company.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:30:21 +1000, "Rudolf Ladyzhenskii"
<rudolfl@optusnet.com.au> put finger to keyboard and composed:

I got an interesting phone call today. A lady with strong acsent informed me
that my phone number was chosen to be connected through a company called
"Call Australia" (at least this is what I understood). It is not part of
Telstra and they offer great rates for STD, international and mobiles.

Is this the company?
http://www.callaustralia.com.au/

It is "wholly owned by RSL COM Australia".


- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Andy]

"Richard Freeman" <deletethisrichard@atps.net> wrote in message news:<2i7vreFk9b1eU1@uni-berlin.de>...

"Rudolf Ladyzhenskii" <rudolfl@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:40be714d$0$1586$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Hi, all

I got an interesting phone call today. A lady with strong acsent informed
me
that my phone number was chosen to be connected through a company called
"Call Australia" (at least this is what I understood). It is not part of
Telstra and they offer great rates for STD, international and mobiles. And
they said that this offer is only available for registered businesses, so
she proceeded to get my name and ABN (they had company name and address on
their system).
She wanted me to join on spot and I said that I am not going to until I
see
something in writing, so shhe promised to send me a fax.

The next thing I know, a male picks up the phone (with strong acsent
again)
and tries to put me through automatic verification prrocess (where machine
asks you questions, you answer YES and it is being recorded).

My called ID phone showed that call was from overseas. When asked, this
person told me that they are in Station Stret, West Melbourne and they had
technical difficulties, so call is probably routed through USA.

Anyway, I told him again that I am not signing up for anything, until I
have
terms and conditions in writing. He said that I can always cancel the
service -- in writing withing first 10 days or by phone call later. I
repeated my request about paperwork and he finally agreed to fax something
to me and call me later on.

There is nothing on the fax machine as I am writing this message and whole
things smells funny. Does anyone know anything about this sort of things?
Could that be a genuine offer or it is a known scum?

I will let you know if I receive anything from them,

I have adopted the habit of simply hanging up on Telephone Spammers there is
usually no point in even saying 'no thanks' as they then just keep trying to
sell .. whatever .. to you and I figure if they are rude enough to ring at
dinner/getting kids in bed time then I can be rude (well less rude than I
usually feel like being) and simply hang up.
The ones I find most insulting are where you are rung up by a machine which
then asks you to hold on while it finds an operator to talk to you ......
F'ing Losers..

I have developed a simple way to deal with these callers:

- Answer the phone as you would normally do
- They start their sales pitch
- Wait a few seconds and say "Hello...."
- They start their sales pitch again.
- Wait a few more seconds and say "Hello..." again.
- They start the sales pitch again
- Repeat the above a few times and the caller starts to get frustrated
- Say "Oh well, nobody is there..." and hang up.

Works every time!

Andy

 

[Rod Speed]

Rudolf Ladyzhenskii <rudolfl@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:40bea99c$0$8984$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

I did not sign -- all I did was asking for paperwork..

They do not need a signature to "churn" you.

Oh, yes, they do.

Oh no they dont. That was the reason the male
was trying to railroad you into authorising by
voice, and recording that authorisation.

Even telstra doesnt bother with a signature now.

They need some way of prooving I agreed

Correct.

and I did not give them any agreement, verbal or
written. They use "voice verification" where you are
asked questions and you should clearly answer YES.

That is clearly not a signature. That is an authorisation.

I did not go through that and I asked for paperwork before I will agree.

They may however try to claim that you did authorise
it verbally, and dont realise that you can demand that
they provide proof that you did authorise the churn
when you find that you have been churned to them.

Dial 12711 and see what it says your long distance default carrier is.

And if it isnt someone new, check it for a week or so.

If it is, fuck them over using the TIO.

 

[Rod Speed]

Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in
message news:2i8io1Fkbk37U1@uni-berlin.de...

Franc Zabkar <fzabkar@optussnet.com.au> wrote
Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote
Rudolf Ladyzhenskii

They use "voice verification" where you are asked
qwuestions and you should clearly answer YES.

Huh ?? There is no such thing.

Wrong. When I switched from Optus to Dingoblue (for my telephone
account), I underwent a lengthy voice verification process.

A voice recorded over the phone, especially a digital
mobile, is no legal basis for identification of a person.

Wrong with a phone churn.

So there must be some other reason they do this.

Nope, its just a convenient way to do a churn and
eliminates the possibility of the churnee changing their
mind when there isnt some salesape monstering them
into churn with a form to sign that comes in the post.

 

[Rod Speed]

Wing Fong Wong <wing@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> wrote
in message news:c9m4ih$q2q$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au...

John Tserkezis <jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote:

Regardless of type of the link, the originator and receiver are never aware
of the nature of the link. ESPECIALLY phone call workers. Not to put them
down, but it doesn't exactly need heavy duty brain power to do that job, they
generally don't know how a phone works let alone how the network is routed.

Just wondering(and perhaps slightly offtopic but) is the routing
infomation and framing infomation propogated down to the end user,

Varys with how the end user's telco does it. Some present the
caller id of the forwarder before the end user, some present the
caller id of the originating caller and some vary what the end user
sees depending on what gets passed thru the system as a whole.

Its a surprisingly complex area, even with just
a diversion from one of your phone services to
another, say from your home phone to your mobile.

The latest signalling system actually allows up to about
7 IDs or something and the terminating telco can decide
which of those is presented to the end user.

And there are two major signalling system even just in this country.

perhaps what I mean is does the phone itself
have to process any infomation during a call?

Its not the end phone, its basically the end exchange that has
specified which of the ids is presented to the end user's phone.

Or is it that the data is processed at the exchanges and the signal
coming down the phoneline is purely the signal sent from the other end?

Nope, its much more complex than that, particularly with diverted calls.

 

[Rod Speed]

<KLR> wrote in message news:3c5ub09n2q2un88iqasr82mvvnnsiihuq3@4ax.com...

Rudolf Ladyzhenskii <rudolfl@optusnet.com.au> wrote

I got an interesting phone call today. A lady with strong acsent informed me
that my phone number was chosen to be connected through a company called
"Call Australia" (at least this is what I understood). It is not part of
Telstra and they offer great rates for STD, international and mobiles. And
they said that this offer is only available for registered businesses, so
she proceeded to get my name and ABN (they had company name and address on
their system).
She wanted me to join on spot and I said that I am not going to until I see
something in writing, so shhe promised to send me a fax.

The next thing I know, a male picks up the phone (with strong acsent again)
and tries to put me through automatic verification prrocess (where machine
asks you questions, you answer YES and it is being recorded).

My called ID phone showed that call was from overseas. When asked, this
person told me that they are in Station Stret, West Melbourne and they had
technical difficulties, so call is probably routed through USA.

I could be wrong with how the modern phone system works
- but I feel that that excuse is a total load of bullshit.

Likely, but not absolutely guaranteed to be.

over the last 5 years or so that I have had caller ID
- without exception - every incoming international
call I have ever had shows as "unavailable".

Unless I know the actual person/company already - I NEVER
regard calls without a caller ID as being legit and will not do
business with them, and tell them so. I will not put my trust or
business in someone who hides their identity like this and tell them so.

Trouble is that that approach rules out the majors like Telstra too.

You've gotta get your phone service from someone.

And the monkey who calls you gets no say on
how that operation does their caller id anyway.

Anyway, I told him again that I am not signing up for anything, until I have
terms and conditions in writing. He said that I can always cancel the
service -- in writing withing first 10 days or by phone call later. I
repeated my request about paperwork and he finally agreed to fax something
to me and call me later on.

There is nothing on the fax machine as I am writing this message and whole
things smells funny. Does anyone know anything about this sort of things?
Could that be a genuine offer or it is a known scum?

I have found that your instincts often prove correct. I would call
your existing provider - explain what has happened - and get them to
check that you are still connected to them. IF you arent - then get
them to reconnect you back to them immediately. IF all is ok - try
confirming again in a week or 2 to make sure that it hasnt changed
meanwhile.

I will let you know if I receive anything from them,

From bitter experience - I really would have to advise that you
leave your service with Telstra. I don't particularly like them - but at
least there arent problems with them and the phone always works.

Yeah, you can end up with some damned weird effects
with a major feed outage. Telstra appears to pull the
plug on their competitor's leased lines used to carry
their long distance traffic from your exchange and you
can find that you cant even report a problem to your telco.

And telstra tells you to fuck off if you try to report it to telstra.

Corse its arguable if its worth bothering to report major
outages, you can be sure that the shit has hit the fan
and that they will be fixing it as quickly as they can.

If you want cheap STD calls - then dial
the prefix for your preferred company.

Trouble is that never gets you the cheapest rates.

I currently keep my line rent and local calls with Telstra and
do change my default long distance and mobile calls carrier.
Mainly for the capped rates which can be handy.

 

[Wing Fong Wong]

Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:

Wing Fong Wong <wing@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> wrote
in message news:c9m4ih$q2q$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
John Tserkezis <jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote:

Regardless of type of the link, the originator and receiver are never aware
of the nature of the link. ESPECIALLY phone call workers. Not to put them
down, but it doesn't exactly need heavy duty brain power to do that job, they
generally don't know how a phone works let alone how the network is routed.

Just wondering(and perhaps slightly offtopic but) is the routing
infomation and framing infomation propogated down to the end user,

Varys with how the end user's telco does it. Some present the
caller id of the forwarder before the end user, some present the
caller id of the originating caller and some vary what the end user
sees depending on what gets passed thru the system as a whole.

Its a surprisingly complex area, even with just
a diversion from one of your phone services to
another, say from your home phone to your mobile.

The latest signalling system actually allows up to about
7 IDs or something and the terminating telco can decide
which of those is presented to the end user.

And there are two major signalling system even just in this country.

perhaps what I mean is does the phone itself
have to process any infomation during a call?

Its not the end phone, its basically the end exchange that has
specified which of the ids is presented to the end user's phone.

Or is it that the data is processed at the exchanges and the signal
coming down the phoneline is purely the signal sent from the other end?

Nope, its much more complex than that, particularly with diverted calls.


I'm not surprised. I was just wondering about it as a matter of interest sinc

I'm doing(finishing?) a unit on digital communications and networking at the
moment. As it was the unit was meant to be an introduction to digital comms
but we still went in to substantial detail about inter-networking of high
capacity channels. I could not believe the amount of header infomation
transfered between nodes of a network. Aside from routing infomation,
for example syncronous networks require clock info embedded into the data,
with redundant data embedded periodically to sycronise clocks. We didn't
get so far as to know how much of this is implemented. Most of the course
was heavily based in mathematics, main focus is on the reliability of such
networks. One thing I did find lacking was the fact that I still don't have
an example in telephony of how data gets from one end to another, just a
lot a hand waving and vague concepts were stated.

But I guess that is just something that will be left for postgrads.

I'd would to love to know what really happens outside of the cotton wooled
world we know as uni.
--


Wing Wong.
Webpage: http://wing.ucc.asn.au

FAQs about me:
Is this related to homework?
Definately not
Are you and undergrad?
Yes
Are you looking for work and do you want to work for us?
Yes, but only if it pays.
Are you insane?
No, not at the moment.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:09:34 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> put finger to keyboard and composed:

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@optussnet.com.au> m...


** Huh ?? There is no such thing.

Wrong. When I switched from Optus to Dingoblue (for my telephone
account), I underwent a lengthy voice verification process.


** A voice recorded over the phone, especially a digital mobile, is no
legal basis for identification of a person.

So there must be some other reason they do this.

Nope. IIRC, the voice verification process was just a verbal version
of the paper contract. It's also more expedient than doing it by mail.


- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Franc Zabkar

Phil Allison:

** A voice recorded over the phone, especially a digital mobile, is
no
legal basis for identification of a person.

So there must be some other reason they do this.

Nope.

** I think you missed my point - it is not technically possible to
verify the recorded voice as belonging to a particular person. So
**identity** is established ( to a reasonable certainty ) some other way -
then the voice is a record of whoever that person is agreeing to the deal
over the phone.




.............. Phil

 

[Rudolf Ladyzhenskii]

Good one!
I'll try it next time.

I usualu inform them about my hourly charge and if they want to waste my
time I ask for a credit card number. Works too.

Rudolf

"Andy" <agw@woodtech.net.au> wrote in message
news:ad702681.0406030538.454f63d0@posting.google.com...

"Richard Freeman" <deletethisrichard@atps.net> wrote in message
news:<2i7vreFk9b1eU1@uni-berlin.de>...
"Rudolf Ladyzhenskii" <rudolfl@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:40be714d$0$1586$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Hi, all

I got an interesting phone call today. A lady with strong acsent
informed
me
that my phone number was chosen to be connected through a company
called
"Call Australia" (at least this is what I understood). It is not part
of
Telstra and they offer great rates for STD, international and mobiles.
And
they said that this offer is only available for registered businesses,
so
she proceeded to get my name and ABN (they had company name and
address on
their system).
She wanted me to join on spot and I said that I am not going to until
I
see
something in writing, so shhe promised to send me a fax.

The next thing I know, a male picks up the phone (with strong acsent
again)
and tries to put me through automatic verification prrocess (where
machine
asks you questions, you answer YES and it is being recorded).

My called ID phone showed that call was from overseas. When asked,
this
person told me that they are in Station Stret, West Melbourne and they
had
technical difficulties, so call is probably routed through USA.

Anyway, I told him again that I am not signing up for anything, until
I
have
terms and conditions in writing. He said that I can always cancel the
service -- in writing withing first 10 days or by phone call later. I
repeated my request about paperwork and he finally agreed to fax
something
to me and call me later on.

There is nothing on the fax machine as I am writing this message and
whole
things smells funny. Does anyone know anything about this sort of
things?
Could that be a genuine offer or it is a known scum?

I will let you know if I receive anything from them,

I have adopted the habit of simply hanging up on Telephone Spammers
there is
usually no point in even saying 'no thanks' as they then just keep
trying to
sell .. whatever .. to you and I figure if they are rude enough to ring
at
dinner/getting kids in bed time then I can be rude (well less rude than
I
usually feel like being) and simply hang up.
The ones I find most insulting are where you are rung up by a machine
which
then asks you to hold on while it finds an operator to talk to you
.......
F'ing Losers..


I have developed a simple way to deal with these callers:

- Answer the phone as you would normally do
- They start their sales pitch
- Wait a few seconds and say "Hello...."
- They start their sales pitch again.
- Wait a few more seconds and say "Hello..." again.
- They start the sales pitch again
- Repeat the above a few times and the caller starts to get frustrated
- Say "Oh well, nobody is there..." and hang up.

Works every time!

Andy

 

[KLR]

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 07:36:42 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:

KLR> wrote in message news:3c5ub09n2q2un88iqasr82mvvnnsiihuq3@4ax.com...
Rudolf Ladyzhenskii <rudolfl@optusnet.com.au> wrote

I got an interesting phone call today. A lady with strong acsent informed me
that my phone number was chosen to be connected through a company called
"Call Australia" (at least this is what I understood). It is not part of
Telstra and they offer great rates for STD, international and mobiles. And
they said that this offer is only available for registered businesses, so
she proceeded to get my name and ABN (they had company name and address on
their system).
She wanted me to join on spot and I said that I am not going to until I see
something in writing, so shhe promised to send me a fax.

The next thing I know, a male picks up the phone (with strong acsent again)
and tries to put me through automatic verification prrocess (where machine
asks you questions, you answer YES and it is being recorded).

My called ID phone showed that call was from overseas. When asked, this
person told me that they are in Station Stret, West Melbourne and they had
technical difficulties, so call is probably routed through USA.

I could be wrong with how the modern phone system works
- but I feel that that excuse is a total load of bullshit.

Likely, but not absolutely guaranteed to be.

over the last 5 years or so that I have had caller ID
- without exception - every incoming international
call I have ever had shows as "unavailable".

Unless I know the actual person/company already - I NEVER
regard calls without a caller ID as being legit and will not do
business with them, and tell them so. I will not put my trust or
business in someone who hides their identity like this and tell them so.

Trouble is that that approach rules out the majors like Telstra too.

true - but I wont provide info for them if its something important

I just call them back. About 50% of the time - no one there has any
record of me being contacted or of such a deal or inquiry - so its
quite possible that these are scam callers trying to get hold of
personal info for a non-legit purpose.

When Im at work - I have DTMS on the computer and if something is suss

- can immediately do a look up of the number. if its "private" you
cant do a thing,

it isnt worth the risk with the scams and identity frauds that you

hear of that go on these days.

You've gotta get your phone service from someone.

And the monkey who calls you gets no say on
how that operation does their caller id anyway.

Anyway, I told him again that I am not signing up for anything, until I have
terms and conditions in writing. He said that I can always cancel the
service -- in writing withing first 10 days or by phone call later. I
repeated my request about paperwork and he finally agreed to fax something
to me and call me later on.

There is nothing on the fax machine as I am writing this message and whole
things smells funny. Does anyone know anything about this sort of things?
Could that be a genuine offer or it is a known scum?

I have found that your instincts often prove correct. I would call
your existing provider - explain what has happened - and get them to
check that you are still connected to them. IF you arent - then get
them to reconnect you back to them immediately. IF all is ok - try
confirming again in a week or 2 to make sure that it hasnt changed
meanwhile.

I will let you know if I receive anything from them,

From bitter experience - I really would have to advise that you
leave your service with Telstra. I don't particularly like them - but at
least there arent problems with them and the phone always works.

Yeah, you can end up with some damned weird effects
with a major feed outage. Telstra appears to pull the
plug on their competitor's leased lines used to carry
their long distance traffic from your exchange and you
can find that you cant even report a problem to your telco.

And telstra tells you to fuck off if you try to report it to telstra.

they do indeed

Corse its arguable if its worth bothering to report major
outages, you can be sure that the shit has hit the fan
and that they will be fixing it as quickly as they can.

If you want cheap STD calls - then dial
the prefix for your preferred company.

Trouble is that never gets you the cheapest rates.



I currently keep my line rent and local calls with Telstra and
do change my default long distance and mobile calls carrier.
Mainly for the capped rates which can be handy.

 

[Rod Speed]

Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in
message news:2iauegFksghlU1@uni-berlin.de...

Franc Zabkar wrote
Phil Allison wrote

A voice recorded over the phone, especially a digital
mobile, is no legal basis for identification of a person.

So there must be some other reason they do this.

Nope.

I think you missed my point

You never had a point, except the one on the top of your head.

- it is not technically possible to verify the recorded
voice as belonging to a particular person.

Not necessary, legally, stupid.

So **identity** is established ( to a
reasonable certainty ) some other way

Not even possible with a churn to a new customer
like this particular one would have been.

then the voice is a record of whoever that
person is agreeing to the deal over the phone.

Yep, even when there is just the voice alone,
and the phone number the sales monkey called.

That could just as easily be some burglar etc who
answered the phone and chose to shaft the owner/
occupier of that premises for a bit of light relief.

Legally the operation doing the churn just has to
have that voice recording and the TIO may choose
to release the owner/occupier from the contract
if there is some evidence that the individual who
legally has the power to authorise the churn aint
the one whose voice is on the tape etc.

Thats just the risk the operation doing the churns takes
and is well worth taking because the risk of the authoriser
having time to think before signing without the sales ape
jabbering in their ear is much worse if a paper signature
is required, even if say by fax etc.

Pretty basic stuff, really.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Wing Fong Wong" <wing@tarDONTtarus.uSPAMwa.eMEdu.au> wrote in message news:c9oklh$u3p$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au...

Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:

Wing Fong Wong <wing@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> wrote
in message news:c9m4ih$q2q$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
John Tserkezis <jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote:

Regardless of type of the link, the originator and receiver are never aware
of the nature of the link. ESPECIALLY phone call workers. Not to put them
down, but it doesn't exactly need heavy duty brain power to do that job, they
generally don't know how a phone works let alone how the network is routed.

Just wondering(and perhaps slightly offtopic but) is the routing
infomation and framing infomation propogated down to the end user,

Varys with how the end user's telco does it. Some present the
caller id of the forwarder before the end user, some present the
caller id of the originating caller and some vary what the end user
sees depending on what gets passed thru the system as a whole.

Its a surprisingly complex area, even with just
a diversion from one of your phone services to
another, say from your home phone to your mobile.

The latest signalling system actually allows up to about
7 IDs or something and the terminating telco can decide
which of those is presented to the end user.

And there are two major signalling system even just in this country.

perhaps what I mean is does the phone itself
have to process any infomation during a call?

Its not the end phone, its basically the end exchange that has
specified which of the ids is presented to the end user's phone.

Or is it that the data is processed at the exchanges and the signal
coming down the phoneline is purely the signal sent from the other end?

Nope, its much more complex than that, particularly with diverted calls.

I'm not surprised.

Yeah, nothing else is even possible with the
complexity of forwarding and mulitiple telcos.

I was just wondering about it as a matter of interest since
I'm doing(finishing?) a unit on digital communications and
networking at the moment. As it was the unit was meant
to be an introduction to digital comms but we still went in
to substantial detail about inter-networking of high capacity
channels. I could not believe the amount of header
infomation transfered between nodes of a network.

Yeah, and most of it needs to be there for some situations.

Aside from routing infomation, for example syncronous
networks require clock info embedded into the data, with
redundant data embedded periodically to sycronise clocks.

And lots of other stuff like the compression system
used, the companding law used etc etc etc.

We didn't get so far as to know how much of this
is implemented. Most of the course was heavily
based in mathematics, main focus is on the reliability
of such networks. One thing I did find lacking was
the fact that I still don't have an example in telephony
of how data gets from one end to another, just a
lot a hand waving and vague concepts were stated.

Yeah, thats mostly because it gets surprisingly
complex and most would just drown in the complexity.

But I guess that is just something that will be left for postgrads.

It isnt usually taught at all at those levels. The education
system is supposed to turn out people who can get that
stuff from the essential documentation for themselves,
because nothing else will ever work with something as
fast moving as telecoms and computing.

I'd would to love to know what really happens
outside of the cotton wooled world we know as uni.

The alcatel site does have some stuff thats better
than just hand waving and vague concepts, but it
doesnt cover the complexity of signalling systems.

That stuff is mostly only in the formal standards.
And few of those are available for free on the web.
And few are even vaguely intelligible even if they were.

 

[Rod Speed]

<KLR> wrote in message news:jvv0c0he3s8d433igkkisoj2il7nv3jpnj@4ax.com...

Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
KLR> wrote
Rudolf Ladyzhenskii <rudolfl@optusnet.com.au> wrote

I got an interesting phone call today. A lady with strong acsent informed me
that my phone number was chosen to be connected through a company called
"Call Australia" (at least this is what I understood). It is not part of
Telstra and they offer great rates for STD, international and mobiles. And
they said that this offer is only available for registered businesses, so
she proceeded to get my name and ABN (they had company name and address on
their system).

She wanted me to join on spot and I said that I am not going to
until I see something in writing, so shhe promised to send me a fax.

The next thing I know, a male picks up the phone (with strong acsent again)
and tries to put me through automatic verification prrocess (where machine
asks you questions, you answer YES and it is being recorded).

My called ID phone showed that call was from overseas. When asked,
this person told me that they are in Station Stret, West Melbourne and
they had technical difficulties, so call is probably routed through USA.

I could be wrong with how the modern phone system works
- but I feel that that excuse is a total load of bullshit.

Likely, but not absolutely guaranteed to be.

over the last 5 years or so that I have had caller ID
- without exception - every incoming international
call I have ever had shows as "unavailable".

Unless I know the actual person/company already - I NEVER
regard calls without a caller ID as being legit and will not do
business with them, and tell them so. I will not put my trust or
business in someone who hides their identity like this and tell them so.

Trouble is that that approach rules out the majors like Telstra too.

true - but I wont provide info for them if its
something important I just call them back.

What is the point in paying for the call ?

About 50% of the time - no one there has any record
of me being contacted or of such a deal or inquiry

That's just because the implementers of their systems
dont bother to allow for that sort of callback properly.

Its hard enough even with operations like Telstra,
when you have initiated both calls yourself, to be
able to find anyone with any record of your first call.

- so its quite possible that these are scam callers trying
to get hold of personal info for a non-legit purpose.

Mindless paranoia. If a sales monkey from Telstra or Optarse
etc calls me cold like that, and they can actually offer me
something that I wasnt aware of that would be better for me,
I usually browse their web site while the salesmonkey is
still jabbering in my ear, if only to see if anyone else has
anything better on offer before I agree to signup for what
the sales monkey has offered me. If it isnt convenient to
do that check of what others are offering in the same area
while the sales monkey is on the line, I just tell them that
I will compare what they are offering with what their
competitors are offering in that area and will call them back
if what they are offering turns out to be the best available.

Usually they arent aware of what their competitors are
offering and I can usually tell them why I am using a better
deal from one of their competitors and the better monkeys
will agree that the deal I am using is better than he can
offer, particularly if the cold call is from Telstra and Optarse.

With other stuff like offers of credit cards from
one of the banks that I have an account with,
I just tell them that I dont need credit, and they
are usually quite polite about accepting that.

When Im at work - I have DTMS on the computer and
if something is suss - can immediately do a look up of
the number. if its "private" you cant do a thing,

Sure, but as I said, it is normally private with all the majors
and they have sometimes been able to offer something that
was worth having, mostly when I havent got around to chasing
up what is currently best value with capped phone calls etc.

it isnt worth the risk with the scams and identity
frauds that you hear of that go on these days.

You're over reacting. With any of the majors, all you have
to do is get the name of the product that they are spruiking
and call back to sign up if you are that paranoid.

Corse one problem is that even when you do have the name,
some of the biggest are fucking hopeless, even when you
see some spruik for something in a TV or paper ad.

You've gotta get your phone service from someone.

And the monkey who calls you gets no say on
how that operation does their caller id anyway.

Anyway, I told him again that I am not signing up for anything, until I have
terms and conditions in writing. He said that I can always cancel the
service -- in writing withing first 10 days or by phone call later. I
repeated my request about paperwork and he finally agreed to fax something
to me and call me later on.

There is nothing on the fax machine as I am writing this message and whole
things smells funny. Does anyone know anything about this sort of things?
Could that be a genuine offer or it is a known scum?

I have found that your instincts often prove correct. I would call
your existing provider - explain what has happened - and get them to
check that you are still connected to them. IF you arent - then get
them to reconnect you back to them immediately. IF all is ok - try
confirming again in a week or 2 to make sure that it hasnt changed
meanwhile.

I will let you know if I receive anything from them,

From bitter experience - I really would have to advise that you
leave your service with Telstra. I don't particularly like them - but at
least there arent problems with them and the phone always works.

Yeah, you can end up with some damned weird effects
with a major feed outage. Telstra appears to pull the
plug on their competitor's leased lines used to carry
their long distance traffic from your exchange and you
can find that you cant even report a problem to your telco.

And telstra tells you to fuck off if you try to report it to telstra.

they do indeed

I did manage to monster Telstra on one ocassion
when I could call their 132200 fine, but no other
13 number and the reseller had one of those for
a support number. I did manage to get the monkey
on 132200 call the number for me and transfer me.

On another ocassion when the resellers 1800 number
was no longer available, presumably because telstra
had pulled the plug on their bandwidth from my exchange,
it was possible to call their headoffice 03 number and
have them call me back,

Simpler to leave the line rent and local calls with Telstra
tho and just have the long distance and calls to mobile
with someone else that provides rather better value.

Corse its arguable if its worth bothering to report major
outages, you can be sure that the shit has hit the fan
and that they will be fixing it as quickly as they can.

If you want cheap STD calls - then dial
the prefix for your preferred company.

Trouble is that never gets you the cheapest rates.



I currently keep my line rent and local calls with Telstra and
do change my default long distance and mobile calls carrier.
Mainly for the capped rates which can be handy.

 

[Peter Parker]

"John Tserkezis" <jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:40be870d$0$1583$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

No telephone conversations are routed overseas when the originating and
destination country is the same one.
It used to be the case that some telephone links were done via
satellite, but
those links have long since been made redundant after they started using
fibre.
(an easy way to tell is the time delay between conversation replies that
happens with satellites).

I use a Darling prepaid phone card for interstate calls and believe that
their calls are routed overseas because:

1. After dialling their 1300 number, you need to dial 0011 61 then the area
code & number (as if you were calling from o/s)

2. There is about an 0.3 sec delay between conversation replies which makes
conversation a little stilted.

Peter

 

[KLR]

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 08:48:07 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:

KLR> wrote in message news:jvv0c0he3s8d433igkkisoj2il7nv3jpnj@4ax.com...
Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
KLR> wrote
Rudolf Ladyzhenskii <rudolfl@optusnet.com.au> wrote

I got an interesting phone call today. A lady with strong acsent informed me
that my phone number was chosen to be connected through a company called
"Call Australia" (at least this is what I understood). It is not part of
Telstra and they offer great rates for STD, international and mobiles. And
they said that this offer is only available for registered businesses, so
she proceeded to get my name and ABN (they had company name and address on
their system).

She wanted me to join on spot and I said that I am not going to
until I see something in writing, so shhe promised to send me a fax.

The next thing I know, a male picks up the phone (with strong acsent again)
and tries to put me through automatic verification prrocess (where machine
asks you questions, you answer YES and it is being recorded).

My called ID phone showed that call was from overseas. When asked,
this person told me that they are in Station Stret, West Melbourne and
they had technical difficulties, so call is probably routed through USA.

I could be wrong with how the modern phone system works
- but I feel that that excuse is a total load of bullshit.

Likely, but not absolutely guaranteed to be.

over the last 5 years or so that I have had caller ID
- without exception - every incoming international
call I have ever had shows as "unavailable".

Unless I know the actual person/company already - I NEVER
regard calls without a caller ID as being legit and will not do
business with them, and tell them so. I will not put my trust or
business in someone who hides their identity like this and tell them so.

Trouble is that that approach rules out the majors like Telstra too.

strange we should be discussing this

today I got a call from telstra (confirming if my full service was
with telstra - which it is) from a bloke with very much an indian
accent - and a caller ID (brisbane) was shown !!