Survey: FPGA PCB layout

[Dave]

Does anybody out there have a good methodology for determining your
optimal FPGA pinouts, for making PCB layouts nice, pretty, and clean?
The brute force method is fairly maddening. I'd be curious to hear if
anybody has any 'tricks of the trade' here.

Also, just out of curiosity, how many of you do your own PCB layout,
versus farming it out? It would certainly save us a lot of money to
buy the tools and do it ourselves, but it seems like laying out a
board out well requires quite a bit of experience, especially a 6-8
layer board with high pin count FPGA's.

We're just setting up a hardware shop here, and although I've been
doing FPGA and board schematics design for a while, it's always been
at a larger company with resources to farm the layout out, and we
never did anything high-speed to really worry about the board layout
too much. Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Dave

 

[qrk]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:43:09 -0700 (PDT), Dave <dhschetz@gmail.com>
wrote:

Does anybody out there have a good methodology for determining your
optimal FPGA pinouts, for making PCB layouts nice, pretty, and clean?
The brute force method is fairly maddening. I'd be curious to hear if
anybody has any 'tricks of the trade' here.

Also, just out of curiosity, how many of you do your own PCB layout,
versus farming it out? It would certainly save us a lot of money to
buy the tools and do it ourselves, but it seems like laying out a
board out well requires quite a bit of experience, especially a 6-8
layer board with high pin count FPGA's.

We're just setting up a hardware shop here, and although I've been
doing FPGA and board schematics design for a while, it's always been
at a larger company with resources to farm the layout out, and we
never did anything high-speed to really worry about the board layout
too much. Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Dave

Sure wish there was a slick way of doing FPGA pinouts. I usually use
graph paper and figure out the FPGA pinout to other parts to minimize
routing snarls.

I do pcb layouts on my own and other folks designs. Our boards have
high-speed routing, switching power supplies, and high-gain analog
stuff; sometimes all on the same board. Unless the service bureau has
someone who understands how to lay out such circuitry and place
sensitive analog stuff near digital junk, it is more trouble to farm
out than do it yourself if you want the board to work on the first
cut.

Doing your own layout will take a lot of learning to master the PCB
layout program and what your board vendor can handle. It will take 5
to 10 complicated boards to become mildly proficient at layout. I
don't know about saving cost. Your time may be better spent doing
other activities rather than learning about layout and doing the
layouts. The upside to doing your own layout - you control the whole
design from start to finish. If you have a challenging layout, you'll
have a much higher probability of having a working board on the first
try which has hidden savings (getting to market earlier <- less
troubleshooting + less respins).

---
Mark

 

[Joerg]

qrk wrote:

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:43:09 -0700 (PDT), Dave <dhschetz@gmail.com
wrote:

Does anybody out there have a good methodology for determining your
optimal FPGA pinouts, for making PCB layouts nice, pretty, and clean?
The brute force method is fairly maddening. I'd be curious to hear if
anybody has any 'tricks of the trade' here.

Also, just out of curiosity, how many of you do your own PCB layout,
versus farming it out? It would certainly save us a lot of money to
buy the tools and do it ourselves, but it seems like laying out a
board out well requires quite a bit of experience, especially a 6-8
layer board with high pin count FPGA's.

We're just setting up a hardware shop here, and although I've been
doing FPGA and board schematics design for a while, it's always been
at a larger company with resources to farm the layout out, and we
never did anything high-speed to really worry about the board layout
too much. Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Dave

Sure wish there was a slick way of doing FPGA pinouts. I usually use
graph paper and figure out the FPGA pinout to other parts to minimize
routing snarls.

I do pcb layouts on my own and other folks designs. Our boards have
high-speed routing, switching power supplies, and high-gain analog
stuff; sometimes all on the same board. Unless the service bureau has
someone who understands how to lay out such circuitry and place
sensitive analog stuff near digital junk, it is more trouble to farm
out than do it yourself if you want the board to work on the first
cut.

Or find a good layouter and develop a long-term business relationship.
My layouter knows just from looking at a schematic which areas are
critical. He's a lot older than I am and that is probably one of the
reasons why his stuff works without much assistance from me. Nothing can
replace a few decades of experience.

Doing your own layout will take a lot of learning to master the PCB
layout program and what your board vendor can handle. It will take 5
to 10 complicated boards to become mildly proficient at layout. I
don't know about saving cost. Your time may be better spent doing
other activities rather than learning about layout and doing the
layouts. ...

Yep, that's why I usually do not do my own layouts. Occassionally I
route a small portion of a circuit and send that to my layouter. No DRC
or anything, just to show him how I'd like it done.

... The upside to doing your own layout - you control the whole
design from start to finish. If you have a challenging layout, you'll
have a much higher probability of having a working board on the first
try which has hidden savings (getting to market earlier <- less
troubleshooting + less respins).

---
Mark

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[John Adair]

Dave

We are slightly unusual in that we started as FPGA design house and
now probably better known for our boards even though we do an awful
lot of internal FPGA design still. A lot of board layout is just
common sense. Having a plan of how it all fits together - not just
placement but routing runs between chips usually pays great dividends.

Having someone who understands both the FPGA and the pcb layout is
usually a great advantage as it allows tradeoffs to be made easily and
generally ends up with with a better board. Swaping I/Os as you layout
will give a much better results.

That all said we are still learning on our pcb design skills even
after producing development boards for nearly 5 years and I can still
say generally that every new board we do is technically better than
the previous one we did.

Your first board will probably take a long time especially if it as in
any way complex. Our first development board (Broaddown2 for the
interested) that we released took about 800hrs of man effort. We would
do that same board now in probably less than 1/3 of that time now.

So in summary you have the difficult decision whether to invest time
in learning the trade, making mistakes along the way, and possibly
getting better boards versus the direct cost of using someone
experienced and reducing the risks of a good enough to ship first
layout. Very few people achieve boards that are good enough to ship as
practical production boards as first revisions and if you do that you
are doing well. Wire mods etc in production cost lots. I'm know of
some designs done by customers themselves that have gone to 7 versions
due to mistakes in layout. That's not cheap and really hits
timescales. I'm proud to say my team have delivered over 50% of our
development boards to production, to ship at 1st issue, but that is
definately unusual in boards of that level of complexity.

Board can be an enjoyable task but it's not for the impatient.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd.

On Apr 17, 5:43 pm, Dave <dhsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

Does anybody out there have a good methodology for determining your
optimal FPGA pinouts, for making PCB layouts nice, pretty, and clean?
The brute force method is fairly maddening. I'd be curious to hear if
anybody has any 'tricks of the trade' here.

Also, just out of curiosity, how many of you do your own PCB layout,
versus farming it out? It would certainly save us a lot of money to
buy the tools and do it ourselves, but it seems like laying out a
board out well requires quite a bit of experience, especially a 6-8
layer board with high pin count FPGA's.

We're just setting up a hardware shop here, and although I've been
doing FPGA and board schematics design for a while, it's always been
at a larger company with resources to farm the layout out, and we
never did anything high-speed to really worry about the board layout
too much. Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Dave

 

[Jeff Cunningham]

Dave wrote:

I tend to agree with the 'farm-it-out' crowd. Unfortunately, my
current employer doesn't want to work with my previous layout people,
so I've been trying to search for a new partner. I've found plenty of
board fab and assembly places, but not so much on the layout. It made

Some of the PCB software vendors have lists on their web site of
independent consultants and layout houses that use their software. I
went on the Mentor site and found zillions of layout people.

-Jeff

 

[Joerg]

Joel Koltner wrote:

"Dave" <dhschetz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dfc27fc0-c07f-456c-80cb-b31e867dd253@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
The opinions
look pretty split from the replies here, maybe it comes down to how
many times you do a layout each year, and how much you enjoy that sort
of work. I definitely think it's something you have to do fairly often
to keep your chops up.

I think what you're seeing is that fact that, by sheer volume of products,
guys doing relatively low-speed digital stuff completely dominate those doing
very low-level analog, RF, microwave, or truly high-speed digital. In the
former case, it just doesn't really matter that much how you layout the board.
Sure, there are definitely better ways and worse ways, but even up to clock
rates pushing 100MHz, for digital stuff I think you can give a guy about an
hour of education and he'll be able to make boards work just fine.

Not anymore. Part of my daily bread is earned salvaging designs where
someone thought "Oh, it's just slow stuff". But it ain't grampa's old
SN7400 anymore, today's logic chips are fast. Some like the tiny logic
chips swing their outputs within very few nanoseconds. Then some
unexpected weirdnesses show up. Everyone thinks it's software but in
reality crosstalk has manifested itself. Other times the moment of truth
cometh at the EMC lab when a thick forrest shows up on the spectrum
analyzer.

Another point to keep in mind is that there's a significant difference between
being able to design a board well when you're talking relatively small volume
production for high-end commercial or military customers where you can afford
to just toss in some extra layers and pay for blind or buried vias or tigether
tolerances if you're at all unsure of how well your layout skills really are
vs. designing a complex board for highly cost-competitive mass-markets. The
later requires a lot of skills that are anything but what is commonly taught!
(E.g., typically at tech seminars you'll hear people preaching, "throw in a
ground plane!" -- an action that saves many an otherwise broken design, but
one which might not be possible if your competition has already figured out
how to live without one.)

And don't split that plane. But yes, often one has to make do with
two-layer phenolic. That is often true art.

BTW does that little switcher work?

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Dave]

On Apr 17, 5:13 pm, "Steve" <sjbur...@comcast.net> wrote:

"Joerg" <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message

news:U5MNj.6956$GE1.6193@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...



qrk wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:43:09 -0700 (PDT), Dave <dhsch...@gmail.com
wrote:

Does anybody out there have a good methodology for determining your
optimal FPGA pinouts, for making PCB layouts nice, pretty, and clean?
The brute force method is fairly maddening. I'd be curious to hear if
anybody has any 'tricks of the trade' here.

Also, just out of curiosity, how many of you do your own PCB layout,
versus farming it out? It would certainly save us a lot of money to
buy the tools and do it ourselves, but it seems like laying out a
board out well requires quite a bit of experience, especially a 6-8
layer board with high pin count FPGA's.

We're just setting up a hardware shop here, and although I've been
doing FPGA and board schematics design for a while, it's always been
at a larger company with resources to farm the layout out, and we
never did anything high-speed to really worry about the board layout
too much. Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Dave

Sure wish there was a slick way of doing FPGA pinouts. I usually use
graph paper and figure out the FPGA pinout to other parts to minimize
routing snarls.

I do pcb layouts on my own and other folks designs. Our boards have
high-speed routing, switching power supplies, and high-gain analog
stuff; sometimes all on the same board. Unless the service bureau has
someone who understands how to lay out such circuitry and place
sensitive analog stuff near digital junk, it is more trouble to farm
out than do it yourself if you want the board to work on the first
cut.

Or find a good layouter and develop a long-term business relationship. My
layouter knows just from looking at a schematic which areas are critical.
He's a lot older than I am and that is probably one of the reasons why his
stuff works without much assistance from me. Nothing can replace a few
decades of experience.

Doing your own layout will take a lot of learning to master the PCB
layout program and what your board vendor can handle. It will take 5
to 10 complicated boards to become mildly proficient at layout. I
don't know about saving cost. Your time may be better spent doing
other activities rather than learning about layout and doing the
layouts. ...

Yep, that's why I usually do not do my own layouts. Occassionally I route
a small portion of a circuit and send that to my layouter. No DRC or
anything, just to show him how I'd like it done.

... The upside to doing your own layout - you control the whole
design from start to finish. If you have a challenging layout, you'll
have a much higher probability of having a working board on the first
try which has hidden savings (getting to market earlier <- less
troubleshooting + less respins).

---
Mark

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

I agree with Joerg. Good high speed or mixed signal PCB layout is a career
choice, and we electrical engineers already chose our career. A good layout
requires someone who understands not just the software package, but the
details of how the manufacturing operation is going to proceed, what the
limits of the processes are, what the assembly operations require of the
board, and is anal about things like footprint libraries and solder mask
clearances and a thousand other details that I'm only partially aware of.
The more complex your design, the more critical these things become.

I have two good local outfits for farming out boards. For complex stuff,
they know I'll come to their place and sit next to the designer for a good
bit of the initial placement. While we are doing placement, we are also
discussing critical nets, routing paths, layer usage, etc. That gives us
direct face to face communication and avoids spending lots of time trying to
write/draw everything in gory detail (which gets ignored or misunderstood a
lot of the time). That investment pays big dividends in schedule and board
performance.

Don't be fooled by the relatively low cost of the software. That's not where
the big costs are.

I once laid off my entire PCB layout department and sent all the work
outside, because although my employees all knew how to use the software,
none of them could tell me what their completion date would be, or how many
hours it would take, and they certainly weren't interested in meeting
schedules. The outside sources would commit to a cost and a delivery date.
And we already knew they could meet our performance objectives. Fixed price
contracts are great motivators. Missing an engineering test window, or
slipping a production schedule because of a layout delay can be enormously
expensive.

Of course, if I had let my engineers do their own layouts, the motivation
would have been present, but the technical proficiency would not. How
proficient can anyone become if they only do layout a few times a year?
Also, on many projects engineers use the layout period for other important
things like documentation, test procedures, writing test code, etc. Doing
your own layout serializes these tasks and will stretch your schedule.

So my advice is to keep doing what you have been doing. Its far more likely
that its the cheapest approach, even though you occasionally have to write a
big check.

Steve

I tend to agree with the 'farm-it-out' crowd. Unfortunately, my
current employer doesn't want to work with my previous layout people,
so I've been trying to search for a new partner. I've found plenty of
board fab and assembly places, but not so much on the layout. It made
me think that the rest of the world did their own layout. The opinions
look pretty split from the replies here, maybe it comes down to how
many times you do a layout each year, and how much you enjoy that sort
of work. I definitely think it's something you have to do fairly often
to keep your chops up.

Andy, I'd also like to hear more about your pin-swap FPGA design flow
- what tools do that? Also curious about any timing issues that have
been caught after the pin-swap.

Thank you all very much for the info. If any of you find yourself in
the Baltimore area, I owe you a crabcake sandwich and a beer.

Dave

 

[Joerg]

Joel Koltner wrote:

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:ZjRNj.9697$2g1.9469@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
Not anymore. Part of my daily bread is earned salvaging designs where
someone thought "Oh, it's just slow stuff". But it ain't grampa's old SN7400
anymore, today's logic chips are fast.

OK, ok, good point. Doesn't someone now have a logic family that's purposely
been slowed down due to this "problem?"

There used to be but it's gone. They also had really high threshold
voltages and stuff.

And don't split that plane. But yes, often one has to make do with two-layer
phenolic. That is often true art.

From Thomas Lee (Stanford) in "Planar Microwave Engineering":

In extremely low-cost consumer devices (e.g., toys, pocket radios, etc.), an
even less expensive board material is not infrequently encountered. Phenolic
is often a caramel brown, typically has an "organical chemical" odor, and is
remarkably lossy. Although phenolic is occasionally used for RF toys up to
100MHz, it is totally insuitable for serious applications. It is mentioned
here simply to answer the question: "What is that cheap, malodorous board made
of?"



I know, I know, he's living in an ivory tower a bit, but he is one smart
cookie.

Errr, well, those sure sound like ivory tower statements. For some
reason all the phenolic I ever used has never smelled. Unless something
blew up on there, of course, but then FR4 will also let off a nasty
stench. The new stuff looks amazingly similar to FR4, not dark brown.
Remarkably lossy? Nah. I have proof to the contrary right here in the
garage (if it's still there), a VHF/UHF TV splitter and 60ohm to 240ohm
transformer where the UHF part is almost completely done in microstrip.
Yes, microstrip on phenolic. There may be a fraction of a dB here and
there but on short stretches that hardly matters. Usually those things
are for outdoors so it's lacquer coated anyway. Phenolic is somewhat
hygroscopic so you have to watch out for moisture.

Totally insuitable for serious applications? Oh man. Let's see, what
have we here? A 418MHz transmitter, several matching networks, a UHF
receiver ... all on phenolic.

Sometimes I wish that professors had more nose-to-the-grindstone
industry work under the belt. I mean real design work where cost is a
big factor. Otherwise they are going to tell students they should use
Rogers for just about everything ...

BTW does that little switcher work?

I've had that board back for about a week, although I haven't actually tested
out the switcher yet since the DSP guy isn't interested in working with the
new (digital) board until the new RF board comes back (and gets tested) as
well, which is still a couple weeks out. (There's this "Big Tester Board"
that's needed to test the RF board and said BTB has spent something over a
week bouncing around engineering getting tweaked/fixed/etc... we'll be paying
a premium to actually get it fabbed in time to start testing RF boards at this
point, unfortunately :-( .) I can and probably should just put a dummy load
on the switcher, turn it on, and see if there's any obvious problems before
the DSP guy starts looking at his clock jitter. Tomorrow sounds like a good
day for that...

That would be good. Gives you a head start just in case there is a
surprise ;-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:43:09 -0700 (PDT), Dave <dhschetz@gmail.com>
wrote:

Does anybody out there have a good methodology for determining your
optimal FPGA pinouts, for making PCB layouts nice, pretty, and clean?
The brute force method is fairly maddening. I'd be curious to hear if
anybody has any 'tricks of the trade' here.

What's the brute force method? We preassign most fpga pins for clean,
no-crossover routing to other chips. We discuss the general issues,
especially placement, with our pcb layout guy and he actually decides
which pins go where. Then he back-annotates the schematic and gives us
a file we can use to create the fpga pin constraints file. Sometimes
bank issues complicate the process, but it works pretty well.

Also, just out of curiosity, how many of you do your own PCB layout,
versus farming it out? It would certainly save us a lot of money to
buy the tools and do it ourselves, but it seems like laying out a
board out well requires quite a bit of experience, especially a 6-8
layer board with high pin count FPGA's.

We'd never farm it out. We do critical mixed-signal stuff, and need to
be near our layout guy constantly. He puts up a version on our server
daily at least, and we keep an eye on progress. And we have a lot of
mini-meetings to change the rules as needed. Besides, we have evolved
some styles (and libraries!) that we couldn't very well transfer to a
service bureau. PCB layout is too important to farm out.

We're just setting up a hardware shop here, and although I've been
doing FPGA and board schematics design for a while, it's always been
at a larger company with resources to farm the layout out, and we
never did anything high-speed to really worry about the board layout
too much. Thanks in advance for your opinions.

For really critical stuff, sometimes I'll take over and route that
part of the board myself. It's just too hard to communicate exactly
what I want.

John

 

[Andy Botterill]

Joerg wrote:

Joel Koltner wrote:


Totally insuitable for serious applications? Oh man. Let's see, what
have we here? A 418MHz transmitter, several matching networks, a UHF
receiver ... all on phenolic.

Multi ghz RF+matching stuff, analog and some digital will work on an FR4
derivative.

Sometimes I wish that professors had more nose-to-the-grindstone
industry work under the belt. I mean real design work where cost is a
big factor. Otherwise they are going to tell students they should use
Rogers for just about everything ...
Don't forget rogers is not perfect , intolerance to flexing and

intolerant of poor soldering techniques.
>

 

[David L. Jones]

On Apr 18, 8:15 am, Dave <dhsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 17, 5:13 pm, "Steve" <sjbur...@comcast.net> wrote:



"Joerg" <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message

news:U5MNj.6956$GE1.6193@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...

qrk wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:43:09 -0700 (PDT), Dave <dhsch...@gmail.com
wrote:

Does anybody out there have a good methodology for determining your
optimal FPGA pinouts, for making PCB layouts nice, pretty, and clean?
The brute force method is fairly maddening. I'd be curious to hear if
anybody has any 'tricks of the trade' here.

Also, just out of curiosity, how many of you do your own PCB layout,
versus farming it out? It would certainly save us a lot of money to
buy the tools and do it ourselves, but it seems like laying out a
board out well requires quite a bit of experience, especially a 6-8
layer board with high pin count FPGA's.

We're just setting up a hardware shop here, and although I've been
doing FPGA and board schematics design for a while, it's always been
at a larger company with resources to farm the layout out, and we
never did anything high-speed to really worry about the board layout
too much. Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Dave

Sure wish there was a slick way of doing FPGA pinouts. I usually use
graph paper and figure out the FPGA pinout to other parts to minimize
routing snarls.

I do pcb layouts on my own and other folks designs. Our boards have
high-speed routing, switching power supplies, and high-gain analog
stuff; sometimes all on the same board. Unless the service bureau has
someone who understands how to lay out such circuitry and place
sensitive analog stuff near digital junk, it is more trouble to farm
out than do it yourself if you want the board to work on the first
cut.

Or find a good layouter and develop a long-term business relationship. My
layouter knows just from looking at a schematic which areas are critical.
He's a lot older than I am and that is probably one of the reasons why his
stuff works without much assistance from me. Nothing can replace a few
decades of experience.

Doing your own layout will take a lot of learning to master the PCB
layout program and what your board vendor can handle. It will take 5
to 10 complicated boards to become mildly proficient at layout. I
don't know about saving cost. Your time may be better spent doing
other activities rather than learning about layout and doing the
layouts. ...

Yep, that's why I usually do not do my own layouts. Occassionally I route
a small portion of a circuit and send that to my layouter. No DRC or
anything, just to show him how I'd like it done.

... The upside to doing your own layout - you control the whole
design from start to finish. If you have a challenging layout, you'll
have a much higher probability of having a working board on the first
try which has hidden savings (getting to market earlier <- less
troubleshooting + less respins).

---
Mark

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

I agree with Joerg. Good high speed or mixed signal PCB layout is a career
choice, and we electrical engineers already chose our career. A good layout
requires someone who understands not just the software package, but the
details of how the manufacturing operation is going to proceed, what the
limits of the processes are, what the assembly operations require of the
board, and is anal about things like footprint libraries and solder mask
clearances and a thousand other details that I'm only partially aware of.
The more complex your design, the more critical these things become.

I have two good local outfits for farming out boards. For complex stuff,
they know I'll come to their place and sit next to the designer for a good
bit of the initial placement. While we are doing placement, we are also
discussing critical nets, routing paths, layer usage, etc. That gives us
direct face to face communication and avoids spending lots of time trying to
write/draw everything in gory detail (which gets ignored or misunderstood a
lot of the time). That investment pays big dividends in schedule and board
performance.

Don't be fooled by the relatively low cost of the software. That's not where
the big costs are.

I once laid off my entire PCB layout department and sent all the work
outside, because although my employees all knew how to use the software,
none of them could tell me what their completion date would be, or how many
hours it would take, and they certainly weren't interested in meeting
schedules. The outside sources would commit to a cost and a delivery date.
And we already knew they could meet our performance objectives. Fixed price
contracts are great motivators. Missing an engineering test window, or
slipping a production schedule because of a layout delay can be enormously
expensive.

Of course, if I had let my engineers do their own layouts, the motivation
would have been present, but the technical proficiency would not. How
proficient can anyone become if they only do layout a few times a year?
Also, on many projects engineers use the layout period for other important
things like documentation, test procedures, writing test code, etc. Doing
your own layout serializes these tasks and will stretch your schedule.

So my advice is to keep doing what you have been doing. Its far more likely
that its the cheapest approach, even though you occasionally have to write a
big check.

Steve

I tend to agree with the 'farm-it-out' crowd. Unfortunately, my
current employer doesn't want to work with my previous layout people,
so I've been trying to search for a new partner. I've found plenty of
board fab and assembly places, but not so much on the layout. It made
me think that the rest of the world did their own layout. The opinions
look pretty split from the replies here, maybe it comes down to how
many times you do a layout each year, and how much you enjoy that sort
of work. I definitely think it's something you have to do fairly often
to keep your chops up.

Andy, I'd also like to hear more about your pin-swap FPGA design flow
- what tools do that? Also curious about any timing issues that have
been caught after the pin-swap.

In Altium Designer I use the incredibly useful "subnet jumper" feature
for BGA's.
The procedure goes something like this:
1) Fan out all the required FPGA pins first (automatically or
manually) to just outside the chip boundry. (leave several diagonal
entry paths for core and other power flood fills to get in)
2) Fully route all non-pin-swappable pins and other critical lines.
3) Ensure any other parts placements are near any required FPGA pins
or block features you think you might need.
4) Route every track just short of the fanout tracks
5) Hit the "add subnet jumper" feature and it finishes the tracks and
does all the pin swaps for you and updates the schematic.

Probably needs a picture or two to explain it best though...

The great part about subnet jumpers is if there are timing or other
problems you can just remove the subnet jumpers and add/edit tracks
and pins as needed and then replace the subnet jumpers. Only takes a
minute or two.

Dave.

 

[Joerg]

John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:43:09 -0700 (PDT), Dave <dhschetz@gmail.com
wrote:

Does anybody out there have a good methodology for determining your
optimal FPGA pinouts, for making PCB layouts nice, pretty, and clean?
The brute force method is fairly maddening. I'd be curious to hear if
anybody has any 'tricks of the trade' here.

What's the brute force method? We preassign most fpga pins for clean,
no-crossover routing to other chips. We discuss the general issues,
especially placement, with our pcb layout guy and he actually decides
which pins go where. Then he back-annotates the schematic and gives us
a file we can use to create the fpga pin constraints file. Sometimes
bank issues complicate the process, but it works pretty well.

Also, just out of curiosity, how many of you do your own PCB layout,
versus farming it out? It would certainly save us a lot of money to
buy the tools and do it ourselves, but it seems like laying out a
board out well requires quite a bit of experience, especially a 6-8
layer board with high pin count FPGA's.

We'd never farm it out. We do critical mixed-signal stuff, and need to
be near our layout guy constantly. He puts up a version on our server
daily at least, and we keep an eye on progress. And we have a lot of
mini-meetings to change the rules as needed. Besides, we have evolved
some styles (and libraries!) that we couldn't very well transfer to a
service bureau. PCB layout is too important to farm out.

I always farm out the layout. At the most I do a mock layout of, say, a
hotrod RF amp area and send it to the layouter. During layout Gerbers go
back and forth all the time, sometimes in 15min intervals. Once my
layouter had to be in Vermont during the job, no problem. Crunch time,
he worked into the night, I had a laptop in the living room and whenever
it beeped I'd go into the office, check the Gerbers and reply.

Also really nice was a company overseas. I only had to check some
critical areas during layout (which was done over there). They used a
subversion system so a scattered team could cooperate without
accidentally stepping on each others files. It was almost as if their
server was here in the basement.

We're just setting up a hardware shop here, and although I've been
doing FPGA and board schematics design for a while, it's always been
at a larger company with resources to farm the layout out, and we
never did anything high-speed to really worry about the board layout
too much. Thanks in advance for your opinions.


For really critical stuff, sometimes I'll take over and route that
part of the board myself. It's just too hard to communicate exactly
what I want.

Yes, for really hot stuff it's good to sit next to each other. In the
past I'd driver over there and me, the layouter and his cat would do the
tough parts of the layout together. Unfortunately his cat has passed
away by now.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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[Joerg]

Joel Koltner wrote:

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:0SSNj.2092$7Z2.69@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
Errr, well, those sure sound like ivory tower statements. For some reason
all the phenolic I ever used has never smelled.

Maybe you're missing those receptors in your nose? I've found that
phenolic has a much stronger smell than FR-4... not necessarily all that
"malodorous" vs. any other common board materials, but definitely a lot more
noticeable.

Possibly

Just went over to the lab and took a sniff. The really old dark versions
might have a wee scent but the newer more light boards don't. The
shepherd looked at me quite puzzled when I sniffed the boards. So she
took a sniff as well but walked away upon dicovering that it ain't
edible. If there were a stench she'd have sneezed.

Sometimes I wish that professors had more nose-to-the-grindstone industry
work under the belt. I mean real design work where cost is a big factor.
Otherwise they are going to tell students they should use Rogers for just
about everything ...

Yep, that is a problem. Have you been to something like IEEE's MTT-S
recently? It really is a different world, and unfortunately the same part of
our culture that now says you need a BSEE to be an oscilloscope salesman is, I
think, what has made it much more difficult for working engineers to enter
academia. Becoming a EE professor is now seen as a career in and of itself,
rather to the preclusion of of being a "practicing" engineer where you have
significant cost constraints.

IEEE also needs step onto the real world of engineering, and soon. Else
member retention will become a problem.

I'd be interested in teaching once I retire but the bureaucratic hurdles
are so high that it might have to be in a more private setting, without
academic institutions, colleges or schools involved. I am not going to
spend thousands on a teaching credential just to appease some
bureaucrat. And the students must be motivated, otherwise I won't do it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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[Chuck Harris]

Joerg wrote:

I'd be interested in teaching once I retire but the bureaucratic hurdles
are so high that it might have to be in a more private setting, without
academic institutions, colleges or schools involved. I am not going to
spend thousands on a teaching credential just to appease some
bureaucrat. And the students must be motivated, otherwise I won't do it.

Teaching doesn't require much in the way of credentials for university level.
Getting on the tenure track is an entirely different matter.

If you want to teach, head off to see the dean of your local university/community
college, and ask what they need. Not much money, but it still can be a very
satisfying experience.

-Chuck

 

[qrk]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:52:38 -0700, "Joel Koltner"
<zapwireDASHgroups@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:ZjRNj.9697$2g1.9469@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
Not anymore. Part of my daily bread is earned salvaging designs where
someone thought "Oh, it's just slow stuff". But it ain't grampa's old SN7400
anymore, today's logic chips are fast.

OK, ok, good point. Doesn't someone now have a logic family that's purposely
been slowed down due to this "problem?"

[snippage]

You can control edge rates (drive current) on FPGAs, at least the
Xilinx families we use. Amazing how simple you can make a DDR2 memory
interface to a FPGA with a little thought. We get by with no
terminations with beautiful looking signals. That saves a lot of power
and board area.

---
Mark

 

[Joerg]

Chuck Harris wrote:

Joerg wrote:


I'd be interested in teaching once I retire but the bureaucratic
hurdles are so high that it might have to be in a more private
setting, without academic institutions, colleges or schools involved.
I am not going to spend thousands on a teaching credential just to
appease some bureaucrat. And the students must be motivated, otherwise
I won't do it.

Teaching doesn't require much in the way of credentials for university
level.
Getting on the tenure track is an entirely different matter.

There shouldn't be any tenure in the first place. There is a reason why
the tenure concept does not exist in industry. Just my humble opinion.

If you want to teach, head off to see the dean of your local
university/community
college, and ask what they need. Not much money, but it still can be a
very
satisfying experience.

Some day I will, when I throttle back design work and money (hopefully)
isn't a big issue. It doesn't have to be any ritzy school as long as the
audience is motivated and the school isn't a huge driving distance away.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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[Joerg]

Joel Koltner wrote:

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Zv5Oj.4677$iK6.2580@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
There shouldn't be any tenure in the first place. There is a reason why the
tenure concept does not exist in industry. Just my humble opinion.

Doesn't tenure just mean that you have to screw up particularly badly to get
fired? And that even after you officially quit teaching/researching you're
generally still allowed to come and play in the lab and perhaps have an
office? Or is there more to it than that?

Plus probably a nice retirement benefit.

I was asked to write a letter of recommendation for a professor I had to turn
him from an assistant professor into a full-fledged (and perhaps tenure
track?) professor. He's a good teacher so I was happy to do it, but I found
it a little odd that the professor in charge of this whole process said, "If
you don't feel you can write a letter that presents [this guy] in a positive
light, it's OK -- let me know and we'll find someone else." Hmmm....!

That is strange. Normally they should have known this guy inside out
before even offering tenure if that's what his new position entails.

Some day I will, when I throttle back design work and money (hopefully)
isn't a big issue. It doesn't have to be any ritzy school as long as the
audience is motivated and the school isn't a huge driving distance away.

These days "distance learning" is becoming quite popular. You could probably
host your own classes on more advanced/specialized topics (where they might
not be enough people interested to get an actual physical class together in a
smaller town), set it up so that everyone gets audio & video and remote
students can send back audio (for questions/discussion), charge tuition to
cover the conference server feels, your costs and compensation, etc. and be
quite successful.

True, but I am a believer in face to face sessions when it comes to
explaining EE matters. You can't beat the hands-on training in front of
a big scope or analyzer. "Sir, I can't get that dang thang to trigger!"

Doug Smith (http://www.emcesd.com/) appears to have done pretty well with his
approach of giving away a *significant* amount of useful information for free
and then having a subscription service for those who want even more.

Yes, his site is indeed excellent. I am surprised IEEE lets him publish
his papers. When I wrote papers for IEEE transactions there was a pretty
clear statement that you pretty much surrender copyright to them.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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[Joerg]

Joel Koltner wrote:

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:KD6Oj.9778$2g1.2542@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
That is strange. Normally they should have known this guy inside out before
even offering tenure if that's what his new position entails.

I believe they did know him inside and out, were happy with his performance,
and that's why it happened: They had already decided they were going to offer
him the promotion, but some standard procedure required getting a student
evaluation as well... so they had to find someone who was willing to write up
a positive one. I just think it's strange that they bother getting a student
evaluation when their minds are already made up... since it then puts them in
the rather awkward position of having to say, "Please write us a good
evaluation, or if you don't feel you can, that's OK, we'll find someone
else..." Weird.

Perhaps they'd do better to ask a handful of students to write up objective
evaluations without the pressure of "...but, um, it has to be positive?" --
and then culling any that were negative? I suppose they're stuck in a
way... being tied to the government (they're a land-grant university) means
they have to follow lots of procedures that regular businesses don't.

Regarding the nice retirement packages... my understanding was that state
workers ended up with rather cushy retirement packages in exchange for having
to accept noticeably below-average salaries (relative to private industry)
during their working years. In Oreogn we have the PERS (Public Employee
Retirement System) which used to work this way, but the "cushy" benefits were
signifcantly reduced via the ballot box when some interested parties pointed
out how much better PERS was than what those folks in private industry get.
Hence you now have a system where public employee pay still isn't competitive
with private industry and now the retirement isn't either! This was a common
topic of complaint by the professors (that you'd get to know well enough) when
I was in grad school; a significant number left for private industry during
that time, and I certainly coudn't blame them.

That being said, I don't know enough to evaluate whether or not public jobs
are still attractive when you look at the total package -- some people would
argue they are and that PERS benefit reductions were just "corrections" to a
system that had become too "generous" in its compensation.

All I know from here (CA) is that their benefits are mind-boggling. Paid
sick leave, fat disability payments where lots of people tried and
succeeded to be declared "disabled", cradle-to-grave medical with hardly
any co-pay. The latter alone will saddle our communities with previously
unheard of debt. Oh, and then lots of jobs have the retirement benefit
tied to the last work year. So, folks have themselves transferred into
high-cost areas such as the Bay Area for 13 months or so, then move
back. That ratchets their monthly checks up substantially, until their
dying day. That ain't right.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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[Joerg]

Joel Koltner wrote:

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:tq7Oj.1556$FF6.588@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
All I know from here (CA) is that their benefits are mind-boggling...

Well, it's entirely reasonable to have retirement benefits for public
employees be comparable to what private companies offer... I just hope that
public employee salaries will then become comparable as well (which implies a
pay raise), since otherwise I don't see how the gov't. expects they'll get
comparable quality out of their workers.

Private companies generally offer zilch in retirement benefits. Those
days are long gone.

One problem with the government seems to be that they don't expect their
employees to be agile over time. See this article:
http://www.gcn.com/print/24_30/37174-1.html -- Someone the government ends up
with a bunch of 70 year old programmers and therefore has to hire IBM to build
them the modernized e-filing systems? Surely there must be some new hires in
the past, say, 40 years who could have been working on this and hence, on
average, would only be middle-aged today!?

A 70 year old programmer can be better than a 40 year old. At least
that's my impression when I see all the "modern" bloatware ;-)

Oh, and then lots of jobs have the retirement benefit tied to the last work
year.

I expect that was implemented to help people who were *forced* to move?

It seems like it needs reworking to differentiate between cases where the
government wants to move you vs. you just voluntarily wanting to do so.

Or you just have to have the right connections to make that happen ...

Anyhow, why should retirement checks be based on the last year of
service? IMHO that's wrong. For everyone else it sure doesn't work that way.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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[Joerg]

Nico Coesel wrote:

Dave <dhschetz@gmail.com> wrote:

Does anybody out there have a good methodology for determining your
optimal FPGA pinouts, for making PCB layouts nice, pretty, and clean?
The brute force method is fairly maddening. I'd be curious to hear if
anybody has any 'tricks of the trade' here.

I start thinking about how the PCB should be routed the minute I start
to draw a schematic. I always draw components with their actual
pin-outs. This helps to group pins together and it helps to
troubleshoot the circuit when the prototype is on your bench (no need
to lookup the pinouts because they are in your diagram).

For quad opamps like the LM324 as well? That can make a schematic harder
to read and will also cause a nightmare if the layouter wants to swap
amp A with amp C and stuff like that.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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