Spice COMS Invertor?

Emoneg · Nov 18, 2004

"N. Thornton" <bigcat@meeow.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a7076635.0411180346.792f4324@posting.google.com...

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:<r1vnp09srqfgjm78p4k300qk4ftrta55ei@4ax.com>...
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:08:14 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Maybe the Philips versions (Berkeley Spice) would work and save your
weekend. However, I haven't looked at these myself yet. There are 74HC
but no CD4000 models:

http://www.standardproducts.philips.com/support/spice/#

Those look AOK, except they're LEVEL=3, so a bit lacking for high
speed simulations.

I guess I'll have to get out my 'HCU04 design and patch all the
oddball "Shrink" and other parameter passing, make it
Spice-flavor-independent and post it.

_Maybe_ this weekend.

But then everyone who uses it and comes through Phoenix later should
treat you for a Widmer's on tap at the local pub

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Such a deal ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Hi again. What I'm actually looking for is 4000 series invertors. I
understood at least some of what you folks said - I really am a spice
cadet when it comes to spice. I used to do paper design and lash up
rather than simulate, and now I want to learn spice and sim a few
ideas, since I intend to get back into tronics again next year. I'm
sure once I've got the hang of it it'll be quicker and more
informative than lashups, not to mention easier. I've got LTspice at
the mo.

Why 4000? Vdd upto 15v, cheap and easily available, and more than fast
enough. 74HC and HCT doesnt do the voltage.

I know LTSPice comes with invertors, but the documentation describes
them as not even a bit suitable, having no modeling of linear gain,
only switching, 0 or 1v out, no output impedance, no ability to alter
supply V, and no nonlinearity. So all in all no use for analogue as
far as I can tell. As far as rewriting its behaviour, I wouldnt have a
clue.

Thanks for trying to clue me up NT

Google

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=4069UB+spice+model

Link

http://www.abcelectronique.com/simulation_spice/HIFI_LIB.LIB

In Link

*********
..SUBCKT 4069UB 6 1 4
*Connections e s Vcc
M2 1 6 0 0 CD4069BN
M3 1 6 4 4 CD4069BP
..MODEL CD4069BN NMOS (LEVEL=1 VTO=2.1 KP=2.9M GAMMA=3.97U
+ PHI=.75 LAMBDA=1.87M RD=20.2 RS=184.1 IS=31.2F PB=.8 MJ=.46
+ CBD=47.6P CBS=57.2P CGSO=70.2N CGDO=58.5N CGBO=96.3N)
..MODEL CD4069BP PMOS (LEVEL=1 VTO=-2.9 KP=2M GAMMA=3.97U
+ PHI=.75 LAMBDA=1.87M RD=28.2 RS=145.2 IS=31.2F PB=.8 MJ=.46
+ CBD=47.6P CBS=57.2P CGSO=70.2N CGDO=58.5N CGBO=96.3N)
..ENDS 4069UB
*$
*
*************

In LTSPICE

Version 4
SHEET 1 1240 680
WIRE 144 160 96 160
WIRE 96 160 96 288
WIRE 96 432 144 432
WIRE 192 352 192 288
WIRE 192 144 192 112
WIRE 192 448 192 480
WIRE 96 288 48 288
WIRE 96 288 96 432
WIRE 192 288 240 288
WIRE 192 288 192 240
FLAG 192 112 VDD
IOPIN 192 112 In
FLAG 192 480 VDD
IOPIN 192 480 In
FLAG 48 288 IN
IOPIN 48 288 In
FLAG 240 288 OUT
IOPIN 240 288 Out
SYMBOL nmos 144 352 R0
WINDOW 0 57 39 Left 0
WINDOW 3 58 60 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName M2
SYMATTR Value CD4069BN
SYMBOL pmos 144 240 M180
WINDOW 0 60 59 Left 0
WINDOW 3 59 34 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName M1
SYMATTR Value CD4069BP
TEXT 336 232 Left 0 !.MODEL CD4069BN NMOS (LEVEL=1 VTO=2.1 KP=2.9M
GAMMA=3.97U\n+ PHI=.75 LAMBDA=1.87M RD=20.2 RS=184.1 IS=31.2F PB=.8
MJ=.46\n+ CBD=47.6P CBS=57.2P CGSO=70.2N CGDO=58.5N CGBO=96.3N)\n.MODEL
CD4069BP PMOS (LEVEL=1 VTO=-2.9 KP=2M GAMMA=3.97U\n+ PHI=.75 LAMBDA=1.87M
RD=28.2 RS=145.2 IS=31.2F PB=.8 MJ=.46\n+ CBD=47.6P CBS=57.2P CGSO=70.2N
CGDO=58.5N CGBO=96.3N)

OK, it's a bit of a hack but someone else might tidy it up.

DNA

Keith Williams · Nov 18, 2004

In article <832qp0t4h8f4o0132pat2emvgi7971a95r@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:31:02 -0500, Keith Williams <krw@att.bizzzz
wrote:

In article <sjvpp0plb2q2jde0qk5t16gbtegqfkk9ir@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...
[snip]

Keith, Maybe I'm confusing you with another lurker, but aren't you
with IBM Burlington?

Sure, but have never dealt with ASICs (or foundry for that matter).

I just checked my 4S+ and 6HP libraries... they're parameterized just
like my illustration... no MC variables.

I've never seen ASIC models (and those are *antiques* ;-), only those
for the internal processes (which are somewhat different). Now you
have my interest. I'll have to take a look at the models we use these
days. The ones I used had distribution functions for the various
parameters, including tracking. Perhaps that's gotten too expensive?
Perhaps I've been out of that end of the biz too long (quite likely).

My! Time sure flies when you're having fun... 4S+ is dated 1995 and
6HP is dated 2001.

A decade? That is indeed old stuff (4S was in vogue when I moved up
here in '93). 10S2 (90nm and 10 levels of metal) is where it's at in
2004. ;-)

I was in Burlington one time just a week before Christmas. The hotel
I was in featured food by the New England Culinary Institute (if I
recall the name correctly)... yummy!

Yes, Inn at Essex and NECI (which is at the Inn). I live in Essex
about a mile on the other side of the hotel (relative to the IBM site).
Other than taxes and being a true-blue state (first to flip), it's a
nice place to live, four months of the year.

--
Keith

Svenn Are Bjerkem · Nov 21, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

Rarely can you just switch foundries, since no two fabs use exactly
the same process... except maybe AMS and X-Fab, which are really
one-and-the-same company.

Are they? I thought they were two different companies.
--
Svenn

Jim Thompson · Nov 21, 2004

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:44:35 +0100, Svenn Are Bjerkem
<svenn.are@bjerkem.de> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

Rarely can you just switch foundries, since no two fabs use exactly
the same process... except maybe AMS and X-Fab, which are really
one-and-the-same company.

Are they? I thought they were two different companies.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Svenn Are Bjerkem · Nov 21, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:44:35 +0100, Svenn Are Bjerkem
svenn.are@bjerkem.de> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

Rarely can you just switch foundries, since no two fabs use exactly
the same process... except maybe AMS and X-Fab, which are really
one-and-the-same company.

Are they? I thought they were two different companies.

X-Fab is the "commercial-grade" spin-off... exact same processes.

But for how long will the processes be the same? I have read a bit about
the history of X-FAB as I have had contact with them, and AMS sold out
in 1999 to the state before it was sold to a belgian holding company
Elex. X-Fab was originally a DDR company, then called Thesys and then,
by Elex, called X-FAB and then came the IPO. This is the *company*
history. The *technology* history is something different ... Do they
still cooperate on technology?

--
Svenn

Jim Thompson · Nov 21, 2004

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:31:51 +0100, Svenn Are Bjerkem
<svenn.are@bjerkem.de> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:44:35 +0100, Svenn Are Bjerkem
svenn.are@bjerkem.de> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

Rarely can you just switch foundries, since no two fabs use exactly
the same process... except maybe AMS and X-Fab, which are really
one-and-the-same company.

Are they? I thought they were two different companies.

X-Fab is the "commercial-grade" spin-off... exact same processes.

But for how long will the processes be the same? I have read a bit about
the history of X-FAB as I have had contact with them, and AMS sold out
in 1999 to the state before it was sold to a belgian holding company
Elex. X-Fab was originally a DDR company, then called Thesys and then,
by Elex, called X-FAB and then came the IPO. This is the *company*
history. The *technology* history is something different ... Do they
still cooperate on technology?

As far as I know the processes are still the same, but it's been over
a year since I ran a lot thru AMS.

Right now I'm dealing with X-Fab, Texas, so that will probably mean I
won't be dealing directly with AMS again.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jim Thompson · Nov 18, 2004

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:08:14 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hi Jim,

That's the shits... the model has "protected" (encrypted) device
models, meaning it will only run on HSpice :-(

Maybe the Philips versions (Berkeley Spice) would work and save your
weekend. However, I haven't looked at these myself yet. There are 74HC
but no CD4000 models:

http://www.standardproducts.philips.com/support/spice/#

Those look AOK, except they're LEVEL=3, so a bit lacking for high
speed simulations.

I guess I'll have to get out my 'HCU04 design and patch all the
oddball "Shrink" and other parameter passing, make it
Spice-flavor-independent and post it.

_Maybe_ this weekend.

But then everyone who uses it and comes through Phoenix later should
treat you for a Widmer's on tap at the local pub

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jim Thompson · Nov 19, 2004

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:17:25 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hi Jim,

I'm an extremist and assume no better than 3% device/resistor
matching, and design to live with it.

That is quite conservative. Is that because you want the design to
survive a foundry switch to some fab at the end of a dirt road, with
flies buzzing around the clean room and all?

Rarely can you just switch foundries, since no two fabs use exactly
the same process... except maybe AMS and X-Fab, which are really
one-and-the-same company.

No joke, I once did see a
lone fly buzz across a clean room. Nobody knew how it ever was able to
get there.

Probably just followed a person thru an air-lock.

Just curious: Do you do your own layouts? Or just the critical sections
of them?

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jim Thompson · Nov 19, 2004

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:24:46 GMT, "Kevin Aylward"
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

But what one also needs to do at key points is to actually manually
mismatch the W or L in say, a diff pair and put in voltage offsets.
Typical WC runs makes it all max or min, which dose nothing for the
checking the effect of basic offsets.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jim Thompson · Nov 18, 2004

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 04:53:37 -0500, Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net>
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:28:32 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
snip

That's the shits... the model has "protected" (encrypted) device
models, meaning it will only run on HSpice :-(

I guess I'll have to get out my 'HCU04 design and patch all the
oddball "Shrink" and other parameter passing, make it
Spice-flavor-independent and post it.

You know what would really be the balls? A short example of how you
hack your .cir files, pass params, and all that stuff you do to run
worst case. Maybe that first design challenge you issued, if you get
a chance.

Refresh my memory. What was the "first design challenge (I) issued"?

As for worst case, I don't do Monte Carlo, because, in an IC,
components of a given type don't wander relative to each other.

Almost always I am provided (by the foundry) with device libraries
that cover the worst case process corners.

Thus, to do process corner simulations, I just concatenate a bunch of
..CIR files, each with the library/temperature/voltage combination I
want... sometimes as many as 30-40 combinations. PSpice will show all
the outputs on a single screen.... making for nice presentations to
the customer.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

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