Somebody asked for a link to the big power tubes I worked wi

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 08:39:34 -0400, Meat Plow <meat@petitmorte.net>
wrote:

I don't think there's a cancer link quite yet. However, breathing
ozone causes some rather nasty pulmonary irritation:
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html
There are also hints that it has secondary cardiovascular effects:
http://ajplung.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/297/2/L209
and DNA damage:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15923135

My DNA is already damaged.

I've noticed. Insanity is hereditary. You get it from your kids.

There seems to be some disagreement as to whether ozone is an oxidizer
or antioxidant as well its medical effects:
<http://www.majidali.com/ozoneis.htm>
To the best of my limited knowledge, ozone generators are used in
hospitals as sterilizers to kill bacteria, not as some manner of
therapy.

Personally, I don't think ozone is a problem except for some oddities
I've observed:
1. Anything made of rubber in the area of the ozone generator tends
to crumble. Flexible rubber compounds seem to be the most affected
(power cords, rubber bands, phone cords, etc). If they don't crumble,
they tend to stiffen.
2. The cylindrical generators with the piece of copper wool on top
have a substantial electron charge. Electronics in the area sometimes
blow up trying to dump all the electrons. I have a customer that
insists on using one near his laptop, which has self destructed
several times over the years. Same with his mouse, keyboard, and
speakers. I can wave an NE-2 neon lamp around his work area and
sometimes get it to light up (when the humidity is low).
3. I've seen a slight increase in corrosion in areas around negative
ion generators and electrostatic precipitators.
S + H2O + O3 -> H2SO4
I'm not sure, but I've had to use contact cleaner on the
aforementioned customers video and audio hardware and have had some
minor connector issues. It might be my imagination.

Anyway, ozone reacts with organic compounds to produce free radicals,
which are generally considered a bad thing. If you find your
political position tending towards the radical, you might reduce your
ozone concentration.

Meanwhile, go easy on the Jacobs Ladder mad scientist special effects.
The spark generates plenty of UV, which breaks down O2 which then
recombines to form ozone.

I've sometimes wondered if the popularity of negative ion generators
is a plot by the diode and capacitor manufactories to dramatic
increase sales. Lots of diodes and cazapitors inside:
<http://users.otenet.gr/~athsam/air_ionizer.htm>

Also, don't go near the water:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_generator>
"A common British folk myth dating back to the Victorian era holds
that the smell of the sea is caused by ozone, and that this smell has
"bracing" health benefits. Neither of these is true. The
characteristic "smell of the sea" is not caused by ozone but by the
presence of dimethyl sulfide generated by phytoplankton, and dimethyl
sulfide, like ozone, is toxic in high concentrations."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Clint Sharp]

In message <30u319.o1e.19.5@news.alt.net>, Meat Plow
<meat@petitmorte.net> writes

Or like I do, drink coffee in the morning,
Not sure the stuff I drink qualifies as coffee, it has caffeine but....
have a cigarette,
Don't do that anymore, was waking up feeling rotten too often.
go for a
ride on my Harley without a helmet and get sunburned.
If only, I'd get pulled over in 5 minutes if I attempted to ride a bike

with no helmet.

I do put a 60spf
sun block on my nose though, easy to get squamous cell carcinoma
there.

--
Clint Sharp

 

[Meat Plow]

On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 09:46:25 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@cruzio.com>wrote:

On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 08:39:34 -0400, Meat Plow <meat@petitmorte.net
wrote:

I don't think there's a cancer link quite yet. However, breathing
ozone causes some rather nasty pulmonary irritation:
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html
There are also hints that it has secondary cardiovascular effects:
http://ajplung.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/297/2/L209
and DNA damage:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15923135

My DNA is already damaged.

I've noticed. Insanity is hereditary. You get it from your kids.

Well yeah exactly in my instance my 'kid.'

There seems to be some disagreement as to whether ozone is an oxidizer
or antioxidant as well its medical effects:
http://www.majidali.com/ozoneis.htm
To the best of my limited knowledge, ozone generators are used in
hospitals as sterilizers to kill bacteria, not as some manner of
therapy.

Personally, I don't think ozone is a problem except for some oddities
I've observed:
1. Anything made of rubber in the area of the ozone generator tends
to crumble. Flexible rubber compounds seem to be the most affected
(power cords, rubber bands, phone cords, etc). If they don't crumble,
they tend to stiffen.
2. The cylindrical generators with the piece of copper wool on top
have a substantial electron charge. Electronics in the area sometimes
blow up trying to dump all the electrons. I have a customer that
insists on using one near his laptop, which has self destructed
several times over the years. Same with his mouse, keyboard, and
speakers. I can wave an NE-2 neon lamp around his work area and
sometimes get it to light up (when the humidity is low).
3. I've seen a slight increase in corrosion in areas around negative
ion generators and electrostatic precipitators.
S + H2O + O3 -> H2SO4
I'm not sure, but I've had to use contact cleaner on the
aforementioned customers video and audio hardware and have had some
minor connector issues. It might be my imagination.

Anyway, ozone reacts with organic compounds to produce free radicals,
which are generally considered a bad thing. If you find your
political position tending towards the radical, you might reduce your
ozone concentration.

Meanwhile, go easy on the Jacobs Ladder mad scientist special effects.
The spark generates plenty of UV, which breaks down O2 which then
recombines to form ozone.

I've sometimes wondered if the popularity of negative ion generators
is a plot by the diode and capacitor manufactories to dramatic
increase sales. Lots of diodes and cazapitors inside:
http://users.otenet.gr/~athsam/air_ionizer.htm

Also, don't go near the water:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_generator
"A common British folk myth dating back to the Victorian era holds
that the smell of the sea is caused by ozone, and that this smell has
"bracing" health benefits. Neither of these is true. The
characteristic "smell of the sea" is not caused by ozone but by the
presence of dimethyl sulfide generated by phytoplankton, and dimethyl
sulfide, like ozone, is toxic in high concentrations."

Good post and I agree. One thing tho and it isn't much proof is that
one of my brother in laws spent his entire working life inside a
furnace room with huge arc furnaces. Certainly the ozone levels
were off the chart but he is in his mid 50's and is the picture of
health. In my case I'm not going to worry about it. If the cigs don't
kill me something else will and at this point I really don't give a
shit.

 

[Meat Plow]

On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 21:10:59 +0100, Clint Sharp
<clint@clintsmc.demon.co.uk>wrote:

In message <30u319.o1e.19.5@news.alt.net>, Meat Plow
meat@petitmorte.net> writes
Or like I do, drink coffee in the morning,
Not sure the stuff I drink qualifies as coffee, it has caffeine but....

Starbucks house blend here in my Cuisinart Grind and Brew. Or a 2 mile
drive or ride or bicycle to the closest Starbucks. We're fortunate to
have a bike trail through the park that starts half a mile from home
and ends up at one of the local Starbucks

have a cigarette,
Don't do that anymore, was waking up feeling rotten too often.

I don't smoke much plus I ride my Trek Navigator 400 about 50 miles a
week. Back before the knee problem I was riding another Trek about 140
miles a week. During the course of one summer recess from my kids
school I logged over 1500 miles in 11 weeks.

go for a
ride on my Harley without a helmet and get sunburned.
If only, I'd get pulled over in 5 minutes if I attempted to ride a bike
with no helmet.
I do put a 60spf
sun block on my nose though, easy to get squamous cell carcinoma
there.

In Ohio there is no helmet law. And really that's the way it should be
everywhere. If you want to spill your brains out on the road that
should be your choice. Next thing you know the govt will be writing
laws to wear head protection all the time so if you fall you don't
hurt your head. But while all this is going down our kids still don't
wear seatbelts on public transportation or on school busses.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:12:13 -0400, Meat Plow <meat@petitmorte.net>
wrote:

Good post and I agree.

Something must be wrong. Nobody thanks me or ever agrees with me.

One thing tho and it isn't much proof is that
one of my brother in laws spent his entire working life inside a
furnace room with huge arc furnaces. Certainly the ozone levels
were off the chart but he is in his mid 50's and is the picture of
health. In my case I'm not going to worry about it. If the cigs don't
kill me something else will and at this point I really don't give a
shit.

Well, that's one way to get a good suntan. However electric arc
furnaces don't generate as much ozone as you might suspect:
<http://www.diagnosisp.com/dp/journals/view_pdf.php?journal_id=1&archive=0&issue_id=3&article_id=65>
(I've only skimmed the article). It concludes:
- Human toxicity potential of electric arc furnace is
only 22% from that of cupola furnace;
- Electric arc furnace has no global warming potential;
My guess(tm) is that's because it's the UV that breaks the molecular
oxygen bonds. The UV is either submerged, or the atmosphere in the
electric arc furnace is lacking in sufficient oxygen to create an
ozone problem.

Also, I was the picture of health until I turned 52. Then, bad
genetics, youthful folly, battle damage, and bad luck all struck at
one time. The problem with healthy people is that they don't go
looking for problems. The typical medical checkup doesn't work.
Usually the doctor asks "Is anything wrong"? If the answer is
nothing, he just schedules another appointment for next year. No
tests are run, no diagnostics, no preventive medicine, no fishing
expedition, and certainly nothing that an insurance company would
disallow are performed. It's like electronics with the bulging
electrolytic capacitors. The device works just fine, until all the
caps short out. You could predict the failure by just opening the
case and looking for bulging capacitors, but who tears apart working
electronics looking for problems? (Hint: I do, sometimes).

The current high-fashion medical theory is that heredity and genetics
have a huge effect on ones susceptibility to a wide range of maladies
and diseases. One of the proposed applications of gene sequencing and
genetic testing is to determine whether someone is prone to everything
from hang nail to heart disease. One could be denied a job or
promotion on such a basis. The list of genetically testable potential
problems grows ever day. One result is that a group of normal
workers, exposed to various hazardous chemicals, such as ozone, might
have a wide range of possible long term reactions. The short term
reactions are probably uniform, but the long term exposure effects
probably varies substantially. Your brother in law might be one of
the lucky ones. (Choose your parents wisely). Natural selection also
works in the workplace. Those still working are the survivors. The
rest are dead, sick, or promoted to safer management positions.

In other words, don't assume that just because long term ozone
exposure hasn't affected your brother in law, that you're safe. If
your genetics is lacking, your could be at risk. It may be many years
before gene testing has progressed to the point where susceptibility
to chemical exposure can be predicted. Even so, I'm not sure any of
us really want to know if we're going to catch some disgusting disease
in the distant future.

As for cigarettes, my father's former partner incinerated several
packs per day of unfiltered cancer sticks all his life. He died at
age 78 from a fall. No heart, lung, or other problems. On the other
hand, my mother smoked all her life, tried to quit many times, and
died at age 52 from a heart attack. Which anecdote would you consider
appropriate? (Hint: I don't smoke).

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Meat Plow]

On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:10:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@cruzio.com>wrote:

On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:12:13 -0400, Meat Plow <meat@petitmorte.net
wrote:

Good post and I agree.

Something must be wrong. Nobody thanks me or ever agrees with me.

One thing tho and it isn't much proof is that
one of my brother in laws spent his entire working life inside a
furnace room with huge arc furnaces. Certainly the ozone levels
were off the chart but he is in his mid 50's and is the picture of
health. In my case I'm not going to worry about it. If the cigs don't
kill me something else will and at this point I really don't give a
shit.

Well, that's one way to get a good suntan. However electric arc
furnaces don't generate as much ozone as you might suspect:
http://www.diagnosisp.com/dp/journals/view_pdf.php?journal_id=1&archive=0&issue_id=3&article_id=65
(I've only skimmed the article). It concludes:
- Human toxicity potential of electric arc furnace is
only 22% from that of cupola furnace;
- Electric arc furnace has no global warming potential;
My guess(tm) is that's because it's the UV that breaks the molecular
oxygen bonds. The UV is either submerged, or the atmosphere in the
electric arc furnace is lacking in sufficient oxygen to create an
ozone problem.

Also, I was the picture of health until I turned 52. Then, bad
genetics, youthful folly, battle damage, and bad luck all struck at
one time. The problem with healthy people is that they don't go
looking for problems. The typical medical checkup doesn't work.
Usually the doctor asks "Is anything wrong"? If the answer is
nothing, he just schedules another appointment for next year. No
tests are run, no diagnostics, no preventive medicine, no fishing
expedition, and certainly nothing that an insurance company would
disallow are performed. It's like electronics with the bulging
electrolytic capacitors. The device works just fine, until all the
caps short out. You could predict the failure by just opening the
case and looking for bulging capacitors, but who tears apart working
electronics looking for problems? (Hint: I do, sometimes).

The current high-fashion medical theory is that heredity and genetics
have a huge effect on ones susceptibility to a wide range of maladies
and diseases. One of the proposed applications of gene sequencing and
genetic testing is to determine whether someone is prone to everything
from hang nail to heart disease. One could be denied a job or
promotion on such a basis. The list of genetically testable potential
problems grows ever day. One result is that a group of normal
workers, exposed to various hazardous chemicals, such as ozone, might
have a wide range of possible long term reactions. The short term
reactions are probably uniform, but the long term exposure effects
probably varies substantially. Your brother in law might be one of
the lucky ones. (Choose your parents wisely). Natural selection also
works in the workplace. Those still working are the survivors. The
rest are dead, sick, or promoted to safer management positions.

In other words, don't assume that just because long term ozone
exposure hasn't affected your brother in law, that you're safe. If
your genetics is lacking, your could be at risk. It may be many years
before gene testing has progressed to the point where susceptibility
to chemical exposure can be predicted. Even so, I'm not sure any of
us really want to know if we're going to catch some disgusting disease
in the distant future.

As for cigarettes, my father's former partner incinerated several
packs per day of unfiltered cancer sticks all his life. He died at
age 78 from a fall. No heart, lung, or other problems. On the other
hand, my mother smoked all her life, tried to quit many times, and
died at age 52 from a heart attack. Which anecdote would you consider
appropriate? (Hint: I don't smoke).

My dad smoked on and off (more on than off) all his life. He would
quit when one of his friends died of cancer then start again. He
finally died in 2004 of stomach cancer but ten years earlier had
beaten colon cancer. I don't attribute those lymphomas to smoking but
rather to his love of nitrate/nitrite soaked ham/baked ham etc... I
try to stear away from that evil stuff when possible.

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Meat Plow" <meat@petitmorte.net> wrote in message
news:313vk3.655.19.17@news.alt.net...

On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:10:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
jeffl@cruzio.com>wrote:

On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:12:13 -0400, Meat Plow <meat@petitmorte.net
wrote:

Good post and I agree.

Something must be wrong. Nobody thanks me or ever agrees with me.

One thing tho and it isn't much proof is that
one of my brother in laws spent his entire working life inside a
furnace room with huge arc furnaces. Certainly the ozone levels
were off the chart but he is in his mid 50's and is the picture of
health. In my case I'm not going to worry about it. If the cigs don't
kill me something else will and at this point I really don't give a
shit.

Well, that's one way to get a good suntan. However electric arc
furnaces don't generate as much ozone as you might suspect:
http://www.diagnosisp.com/dp/journals/view_pdf.php?journal_id=1&archive=0&issue_id=3&article_id=65
(I've only skimmed the article). It concludes:
- Human toxicity potential of electric arc furnace is
only 22% from that of cupola furnace;
- Electric arc furnace has no global warming potential;
My guess(tm) is that's because it's the UV that breaks the molecular
oxygen bonds. The UV is either submerged, or the atmosphere in the
electric arc furnace is lacking in sufficient oxygen to create an
ozone problem.

Also, I was the picture of health until I turned 52. Then, bad
genetics, youthful folly, battle damage, and bad luck all struck at
one time. The problem with healthy people is that they don't go
looking for problems. The typical medical checkup doesn't work.
Usually the doctor asks "Is anything wrong"? If the answer is
nothing, he just schedules another appointment for next year. No
tests are run, no diagnostics, no preventive medicine, no fishing
expedition, and certainly nothing that an insurance company would
disallow are performed. It's like electronics with the bulging
electrolytic capacitors. The device works just fine, until all the
caps short out. You could predict the failure by just opening the
case and looking for bulging capacitors, but who tears apart working
electronics looking for problems? (Hint: I do, sometimes).

The current high-fashion medical theory is that heredity and genetics
have a huge effect on ones susceptibility to a wide range of maladies
and diseases. One of the proposed applications of gene sequencing and
genetic testing is to determine whether someone is prone to everything
from hang nail to heart disease. One could be denied a job or
promotion on such a basis. The list of genetically testable potential
problems grows ever day. One result is that a group of normal
workers, exposed to various hazardous chemicals, such as ozone, might
have a wide range of possible long term reactions. The short term
reactions are probably uniform, but the long term exposure effects
probably varies substantially. Your brother in law might be one of
the lucky ones. (Choose your parents wisely). Natural selection also
works in the workplace. Those still working are the survivors. The
rest are dead, sick, or promoted to safer management positions.

In other words, don't assume that just because long term ozone
exposure hasn't affected your brother in law, that you're safe. If
your genetics is lacking, your could be at risk. It may be many years
before gene testing has progressed to the point where susceptibility
to chemical exposure can be predicted. Even so, I'm not sure any of
us really want to know if we're going to catch some disgusting disease
in the distant future.

As for cigarettes, my father's former partner incinerated several
packs per day of unfiltered cancer sticks all his life. He died at
age 78 from a fall. No heart, lung, or other problems. On the other
hand, my mother smoked all her life, tried to quit many times, and
died at age 52 from a heart attack. Which anecdote would you consider
appropriate? (Hint: I don't smoke).

My dad smoked on and off (more on than off) all his life. He would
quit when one of his friends died of cancer then start again. He
finally died in 2004 of stomach cancer but ten years earlier had
beaten colon cancer. I don't attribute those lymphomas to smoking but
rather to his love of nitrate/nitrite soaked ham/baked ham etc... I
try to stear away from that evil stuff when possible.

You just can't tell really, can you ? My dad also beat colon cancer, and
went on to die 13 years later of stomach cancer, and he never smoked a
single cigarette all his life. I can't think of any particular foods that he
was especially fond of either, which are known to have any carcinogenic
connections. In fact I would have said that overall, he ate fairly
healthily. I think in a lot of cases, you are just genetically predisposed
to these diseases.

Arfa

 

[Meat Plow]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 00:45:15 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
<arfa.daily@ntlworld.com>wrote:

"Meat Plow" <meat@petitmorte.net> wrote in message
news:313vk3.655.19.17@news.alt.net...
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:10:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
jeffl@cruzio.com>wrote:

On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:12:13 -0400, Meat Plow <meat@petitmorte.net
wrote:

Good post and I agree.

Something must be wrong. Nobody thanks me or ever agrees with me.

One thing tho and it isn't much proof is that
one of my brother in laws spent his entire working life inside a
furnace room with huge arc furnaces. Certainly the ozone levels
were off the chart but he is in his mid 50's and is the picture of
health. In my case I'm not going to worry about it. If the cigs don't
kill me something else will and at this point I really don't give a
shit.

Well, that's one way to get a good suntan. However electric arc
furnaces don't generate as much ozone as you might suspect:
http://www.diagnosisp.com/dp/journals/view_pdf.php?journal_id=1&archive=0&issue_id=3&article_id=65
(I've only skimmed the article). It concludes:
- Human toxicity potential of electric arc furnace is
only 22% from that of cupola furnace;
- Electric arc furnace has no global warming potential;
My guess(tm) is that's because it's the UV that breaks the molecular
oxygen bonds. The UV is either submerged, or the atmosphere in the
electric arc furnace is lacking in sufficient oxygen to create an
ozone problem.

Also, I was the picture of health until I turned 52. Then, bad
genetics, youthful folly, battle damage, and bad luck all struck at
one time. The problem with healthy people is that they don't go
looking for problems. The typical medical checkup doesn't work.
Usually the doctor asks "Is anything wrong"? If the answer is
nothing, he just schedules another appointment for next year. No
tests are run, no diagnostics, no preventive medicine, no fishing
expedition, and certainly nothing that an insurance company would
disallow are performed. It's like electronics with the bulging
electrolytic capacitors. The device works just fine, until all the
caps short out. You could predict the failure by just opening the
case and looking for bulging capacitors, but who tears apart working
electronics looking for problems? (Hint: I do, sometimes).

The current high-fashion medical theory is that heredity and genetics
have a huge effect on ones susceptibility to a wide range of maladies
and diseases. One of the proposed applications of gene sequencing and
genetic testing is to determine whether someone is prone to everything
from hang nail to heart disease. One could be denied a job or
promotion on such a basis. The list of genetically testable potential
problems grows ever day. One result is that a group of normal
workers, exposed to various hazardous chemicals, such as ozone, might
have a wide range of possible long term reactions. The short term
reactions are probably uniform, but the long term exposure effects
probably varies substantially. Your brother in law might be one of
the lucky ones. (Choose your parents wisely). Natural selection also
works in the workplace. Those still working are the survivors. The
rest are dead, sick, or promoted to safer management positions.

In other words, don't assume that just because long term ozone
exposure hasn't affected your brother in law, that you're safe. If
your genetics is lacking, your could be at risk. It may be many years
before gene testing has progressed to the point where susceptibility
to chemical exposure can be predicted. Even so, I'm not sure any of
us really want to know if we're going to catch some disgusting disease
in the distant future.

As for cigarettes, my father's former partner incinerated several
packs per day of unfiltered cancer sticks all his life. He died at
age 78 from a fall. No heart, lung, or other problems. On the other
hand, my mother smoked all her life, tried to quit many times, and
died at age 52 from a heart attack. Which anecdote would you consider
appropriate? (Hint: I don't smoke).

My dad smoked on and off (more on than off) all his life. He would
quit when one of his friends died of cancer then start again. He
finally died in 2004 of stomach cancer but ten years earlier had
beaten colon cancer. I don't attribute those lymphomas to smoking but
rather to his love of nitrate/nitrite soaked ham/baked ham etc... I
try to stear away from that evil stuff when possible.

You just can't tell really, can you ? My dad also beat colon cancer, and
went on to die 13 years later of stomach cancer, and he never smoked a
single cigarette all his life. I can't think of any particular foods that he
was especially fond of either, which are known to have any carcinogenic
connections. In fact I would have said that overall, he ate fairly
healthily. I think in a lot of cases, you are just genetically predisposed
to these diseases.

Arfa

Wow very similar cases! You're right about the genetics. Especially
with lymphomas of the gut. Had the camera tube shoved up my backside
when I turned 50, nothing of interest seen. Probably should repeat it
every 5 years. No history of prostrate in the family so I'm probably
ok there. No real history of early deaths due to cancers but who knows
what's in store?