Solder to Aluminum?

[Robert Peffers]

"Mike Monett" <no@spam.today> wrote in message
news:42B1F3DF.7D29@spam.today...

Robert Peffers wrote:

[...]

Here is something most folk don't know. During WWII the RAF mechanics
used
to solder plates over the bullet holes in Spitfire engines. They used a
really hot iron and heavy engine oil. As an experiment I had a go at
soldering aluminium and their method worked but was a bit hit or miss.
You
have to solder through a film of engine oil and keep the iron vigorously
moving while tinning the surfaces. Yeah! I know it is not what you wanted
but it was just a bit of history.

You'd think a bullet hole would mean a ruined engine and a crashed plane.

Where and how can you put a hole in an engine without destroying it?

Mike Monett
I didn't say the plane they got the engine from was still flying and,

furthermore, I did not say the damage was sufficient to destroy the engine.
Think oil leaks, coolant leaks, et.al. Both kind of leaks would,
"eventually", destroy an engine if it was allowed to run for any length of
time. Remember that these aircraft were fighting in the skies just above
their home bases for much of the time. They would come in as soon as trouble
was indicated and there was much cannibalisation of bits from damaged and
crashed aircraft. There was a war on after all. Remember also that such
aircraft could glide down in the event of an engine failure.
--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk

 

[Mike Monett]

Robert Peffers wrote:

"Mike Monett" <no@spam.today> wrote in message
news:42B1F3DF.7D29@spam.today..
Robert Peffers wrote:

[...]

Here is something most folk don't know. During WWII the RAF mechanics
used
to solder plates over the bullet holes in Spitfire engines. They used a
really hot iron and heavy engine oil. As an experiment I had a go at
soldering aluminium and their method worked but was a bit hit or miss.
You
have to solder through a film of engine oil and keep the iron vigorously
moving while tinning the surfaces. Yeah! I know it is not what you wanted
but it was just a bit of history.

You'd think a bullet hole would mean a ruined engine and a crashed plane.

Where and how can you put a hole in an engine without destroying it?

Mike Monett

I didn't say the plane they got the engine from was still flying and,
furthermore, I did not say the damage was sufficient to destroy the engine.
Think oil leaks, coolant leaks, et.al. Both kind of leaks would,
"eventually", destroy an engine if it was allowed to run for any length of
time. Remember that these aircraft were fighting in the skies just above
their home bases for much of the time. They would come in as soon as trouble
was indicated and there was much cannibalisation of bits from damaged and
crashed aircraft. There was a war on after all. Remember also that such
aircraft could glide down in the event of an engine failure.

You said "solder plates over the bullet holes in Spitfire engines". A bullet hole
means the engine is destroyed. Soldering a patch over the hole isn't going to
help.

Mike Monett

 

[Robert Peffers]

"Mike Monett" <no@spam.today> wrote in message
news:42B2077D.AE4@spam.today...

Robert Peffers wrote:

"Mike Monett" <no@spam.today> wrote in message
news:42B1F3DF.7D29@spam.today..
Robert Peffers wrote:
snip
You said "solder plates over the bullet holes in Spitfire engines". A
bullet hole
means the engine is destroyed. Soldering a patch over the hole isn't going
to
help.

Mike Monett
So you seem to think a crack, or bit chipped out, of an ali block caused by

a bullet's impact that lets either oil or coolant to escape is NOT a hole?
Strange considering that fluid can get out?
--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk

 

[keith]

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:49:19 -0400, Mike Monett wrote:

Robert Peffers wrote:

[...]

Here is something most folk don't know. During WWII the RAF mechanics used
to solder plates over the bullet holes in Spitfire engines. They used a
really hot iron and heavy engine oil. As an experiment I had a go at
soldering aluminium and their method worked but was a bit hit or miss. You
have to solder through a film of engine oil and keep the iron vigorously
moving while tinning the surfaces. Yeah! I know it is not what you wanted
but it was just a bit of history.

You'd think a bullet hole would mean a ruined engine and a crashed plane.

Interesting thing happened in the So. Pacific in WWII. They were
reinforcing sections of the planes that came back all shot up. One day
the epifany-angel decended and suggested that perhaps they should be
reinforcing the places that weren't all shot up.

Where and how can you put a hole in an engine without destroying it?

If it came back, it was obvious.

--
Keith

 

[RST Engineering (jw)]

If the bullet hole came through above the cylinder line, all that you would
lose is splashed oil, and not a lot at that. The odds of the bullet hitting
above the cylinder line as opposed to below the line were better than 50-50,
so a LOT of bullet holes in Merlin engines were patched. The APPROVED
process was to heliarc weld it, but in the field, a lot of genius mechanics
figured out an alternative and much simpler process.

Jim



"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
newsan.2005.06.17.03.19.25.809875@att.bizzzz...

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:49:19 -0400, Mike Monett wrote:

Robert Peffers wrote:

[...]

Here is something most folk don't know. During WWII the RAF mechanics
used
to solder plates over the bullet holes in Spitfire engines
Where and how can you put a hole in an engine without destroying it?

If it came back, it was obvious.

--
Keith

 

[Robert Baer]

Al wrote:

In article <ktf1b1luoitgt5uq46ombgebqglvmquema@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:


On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:51:12 GMT, "Carl Ijames"
carl.ijames@nospm.verizon.net> wrote:


The technique I've read for soldering to aluminum with zinc alloys is to
melt a blob of solder onto the aluminum and then to keep scratching back
and forth at the bottom of the puddle with the soldering iron tip. This
scratches through the aluminum oxide layer and exposes fresh aluminum
which the solder bonds to, while the puddle of solder itself keeps
oxygen away.

I haven't done it in years, but I recall a block of some substance
with which you abraded the surface of the aluminum and then you could
solder to it in a normal fashion.

...Jim Thompson


Might be sal ammoniac also known as ammonium chloride. You used to be
able to buy them at Sears many moons ago.

Al
That should work rather well.

 

[Paul Burke]

Robert Peffers wrote:

... They would come in as soon as trouble
was indicated and there was much cannibalisation of bits from damaged and
crashed aircraft. There was a war on after all...

Short of aircraft, short of pilots, short of ammunition, attacked by a
vastly superior airforce that had had several more years to prepare than
they had. Their only advantage was that they were fighting on home
territory, so could fight longer than the Luftwaffe, who had burnt fuel
coming and had to get back. They recycled what they could, from whole
aircraft to the few remaining bits that were good. I wonder what would
have happened had transplant surgery been developed back then:

The Aviator's Song:

Oh, the bold aviator was dying
And as 'neath the wreckage he lay, he lay
To the sobbing mechanics about him
These last parting words he did say

"Take the cylinders out of my kidneys
The connecting rod out of my brain, my brain
From the small of my back get the crankshaft
And assemble the engine again"

Paul Burke

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Paul Burke wrote:

Robert Peffers wrote:

... They would come in as soon as trouble
was indicated and there was much cannibalisation of bits from damaged
and crashed aircraft. There was a war on after all...


Short of aircraft, short of pilots, short of ammunition, attacked by a
vastly superior airforce that had had several more years to prepare than
they had. Their only advantage was that they were fighting on home
territory, so could fight longer than the Luftwaffe, who had burnt fuel
coming and had to get back. They recycled what they could, from whole
aircraft to the few remaining bits that were good. I wonder what would
have happened had transplant surgery been developed back then:

The Aviator's Song:

Oh, the bold aviator was dying
And as 'neath the wreckage he lay, he lay
To the sobbing mechanics about him
These last parting words he did say

"Take the cylinders out of my kidneys
The connecting rod out of my brain, my brain
From the small of my back get the crankshaft
And assemble the engine again"

Paul Burke

1. The RAF never had fewer than 50 fighters available for immediate
replacements, and the number was usually over 100. Lots of good things
were done to increase supply--Lord Beaverbrook would certainly have gone
to jail in peacetime--but the planes were always there.

2. Home territory helped a lot, but Chain Home rdf (radar) got the
planes to where they needed to be. Goering thought they'd need three
times the aircraft they had, in order to intercept that effectively, and
Dowding for once agreed with him--apart from radar.

(Reference: "The Narrow Margin" by Derek Wood)

And anyway, that sort of stuff is done routinely by any good Nascar pit
crew. Though they don't talk as loudly about trying to make the other
guys crash. ;-)

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs

 

[Robert Baer]

dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:

Chris Carlen wrote:

There is an alloy from Indium Corp that is 91Sn 9Zn which
can solder Al with a flux. I'm waiting for them to get back to me.

I can't find a US distributor of that Alusol anywhere. Thanks
for the link, though.


http://www.solder-it.com/solderpaste.asp

"Aluminum Solder-It (ALP-21)

flows at 395F far below the melting point of aluminum. It is used to
solder many types and gauges of aluminum as well as to solder aluminum
to most other metals. It is especially useful for joining dissimilar
gauges of aluminum. Use Aluminum Solder-It for aluminum tubing,
aluminum antennas, aluminum radiators, air conditioning condensers,
refrigeration, aluminum boats, doors, windows, anodized aluminum and
aluminum foil. Great for constructing and repairing Remote Controlled
Aircraft Parts and cosmetic repair of Homebuilt Aircraft/Parts. "

James Arthur

You better find out if it contains cadmimum; the fumes are *very*

toxic!!!!

 

[BFoelsch]

"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2fQre.4418$hK3.576@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

przemek klosowski wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:38:24 +0000, David Lesher wrote:



Solder in an inert atmosphere/vacuum, maybe?]


You are on the right track: don't let the Al2O3 reform.
Instead of vacuum/inert gas, I had good luck with soldering under
a droplet of engine oil. I was soldering to a 1mm by 1 cm Al strip,
using
a small 30 W iron; I wetted the tip with a blob of solder, and touched
the
side of the oil droplet, while scrapping the area covered by oil with a
dental pick. Within 10-20 seconds, the solder wetted the scratched area
under the oil.
OIL! Did not think of that.
Forgive the pun, but that was a slick idea!

Use J. W. Harris Stay-Clean Aluminum Flux. Smells bad, works fine. Intended
for repairing aluminum refrigeration parts. They recommend using
silver-bearing solder (Stay-Brite) or Alusol, but it will work just fine
with tin-lead as well.

 

[Mike Monett]

BFoelsch wrote:

[...]

Use J. W. Harris Stay-Clean Aluminum Flux. Smells bad, works fine. Intended
for repairing aluminum refrigeration parts. They recommend using
silver-bearing solder (Stay-Brite) or Alusol, but it will work just fine
with tin-lead as well.

Thanks! Some useful info at their site:

http://www.jwharris.com/jwprod/solderalloys/

Mike Monett