Software for Schematic, PWB, and Spice?

I am a First Year Student going for a BSEE.
When I get into industry, they will want me to know how to do
Schematic Capture, PWB Layout, and SPICE simulation.

By all means, learn a bit about pcb layout, but those with BSEE's,
shouldn't, in my view, be concerned much about drawing pretty pictures.
Kevin Aylward
Click to expand...
The more you make your "documentation" look like this
http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Print.cfm?ArticleID=4703
the more highly you will be regarded. :cool:


"Construction"
http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Print.cfm?ArticleID=5186
 
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote:

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> says...

auto-router, which some might see as a positive advantage (I had a
very frustrating time with an Orcad auto-router a few years ago.)

Ah, the Orcad auto-router...

After the company I worked for bought it (on the strength of the
DOS version of Orcad schematic being so good) I tried and tried
to make it work. Finally I got down to a a test case of a
resistor and a capacitor in parallel - the simplest circuit
I could think of. The OrCad autorouter took over five minutes to
autoroute it and the result had 27 vias! I am sure that Orcad
has improved a lot since then, but I tend to mistrust a company
with management that allows something like that to ship.
Click to expand...
An autorouter isn't something that will work out of the box. Using an
autorouter is like a riding a bike or swimming. It takes time to learn
how to do it. A few months ago I spoke to an EE who has been using the
Specctra router for many years and the boards he made with it look
just fine.

--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
 
On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:08:14 +0000, First Year Student wrote:

I am a First Year Student going for a BSEE.

When I get into industry, they will want me to
know how to do Schematic Capture, PWB Layout,
and SPICE simulation. What software is the most
popular and/or most likely to land me a good job?
Price is no object for me; I have a large trust
fund and would rather spend this month's $25K
check on software than on the stuff I usually
waste it on.

Related question; if I ever become an independent,
what's the best (as opposed to most widely used)
software for Schematic Capture, PWB Layout, and
SPICE simulation? Again, price is no object.

-- First Year Student
Click to expand...

I've used mentor graphics's high-end tool-chain and the cadence "capture"
program for schematic capture. For a single individual, there is no way I
could recommend mentor's high end tools. They are such a pain in the ass,
and I think they are too expensive for a non-institutional buyer. (Even a
trust-fund kid ;-) I think they have some mid-level tools now, and those
might work OK for you, but I haven't tried them. Cadence's capture is
decent enough, and it is considered a "real" tool in industry.

I don't do routing, and for the most part, I suggest you not do too much
of it either. It's handy to be able to dash out a quick prototype and it
may help you on your projects at school, but in industry, the guys who
route the boards are usually less like BSEE types and more like
CAD-operator types. A skilled autorouter operator is an exception, but as
a first year student, with no industry experience, you aren't going to
understand how to work an autorouter.

So if you are determined to do this, I would say, get "capture" from
cadence, or get an entry or mid-level tool from mentor graphics. For
routing, just get the one that plays nicely with whichever schematic
capture tool you decide on.

For spice, HSPICE seems to be the industry standard, at least at the IC
design level. I think it's really expensive. I've never used it. LTSpice
(which is free) is probably more than good enough for you for now. You
could also get a simulator that is well-integrated with your schematic
capture tool.

You can also get ngspice, which is basically the old Berkeley spice, with
some updates. I'm pretty sure they've got it working on Windows, but you
can definitely compile it for linux.

Ultimately, time spent on your curriculum will probably benefit you more
than learning specific CAD tools. In some cases, your curriculum might
actually involve using CAD tools, of course.

Also, for the most part, beginners shouldn't use spice. It will just
postpone real understanding. If you already know some circuit theory, then
it might be OK.

One thing to keep in mind is that the high-end, expensive tools often are
designed to manage everything from schematic capture and layout to
inventory control and costing and so on. Some of them only run on Unix,
and there is an expectation that there will be a dedicated staff of people
just to maintain the tool. It simply doesn't make sense for you to invest
in learning this type of tool unless you work for a company that uses it,
and they will most likely expect to train you anyway.

Hey, I just thought of another idea: Get some free software type tools
(gSchem for schematic capture, pcb for layout, and ngspice for
simulation -- see http://geda.seul.org) and donate some of the $10,000 you
save to the various projects. I believe they all accept donations. There
is a grand tradition of rich benefactors supporting worthy causes. Maybe
you could be such a benefactor for open-source EDA projects. Just a
thought. ;-)

regards,
Mac
 
JeffM <jeffm_@email.com> says...

The more you make your "documentation" look like this
http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Print.cfm?ArticleID=4703
the more highly you will be regarded. :cool:

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Print.cfm?ArticleID=5186
Click to expand...
The author of those schematics is one of the most highly
regarded EEs ever, so maybe you are on to something...

I think it's the beard.


--
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire.
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like
Doc Brown can solve? My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/
 
"Guy Macon" <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote in message
news:ytqdnT2aFZhjO_rdRVn-jA@speakeasy.net...
JeffM <jeffm_@email.com> says...

The more you make your "documentation" look like this
http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Print.cfm?ArticleID=4703
the more highly you will be regarded. :cool:

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Print.cfm?ArticleID=5186

The author of those schematics is one of the most highly
regarded EEs ever, so maybe you are on to something...

I think it's the beard.


--
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire.
Click to expand...
I've been using that package for years without a hitch - never needed a
service pack or nuffin!

Ken
 
"Guy Macon" <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote in message
news:AtqdnXShj9hqi_rdRVn-hA@speakeasy.net...
First Year Student <anonymous@example.invalid> says...

what's the best (as opposed to most widely used)
software for Schematic Capture, PWB Layout, and
SPICE simulation? Again, price is no object.

Here is the algorithm for answering this question and
any other questions like it:

First, do a Google groups search on one such product.
Let's start with Pulsonix because it was just mentioned
here and because it's a word that is unlikely to get a
bunch of unrelated hits (unlike Tango and PADS...)
Start here: http://www.google.com/groups?as_q=Pulsonix

For each result click on "view entire thread" and then on
the first post in the thread. Read all posts until the
thread ends or the topic drifts.

While doing this, make notes of any other products mentioned.
Repeat the above steps for each one. (Accel, CADSTAR, Eagle,
OrCAD, P-CAD, PADS, Protel, Pulsonix, Tango and Ultiboard are
all names that you should run into somewhere along the line.)

Finally, post a summary of what you found during your search here.

(My summary; *nobody* seems to have anything bad to say about
Pulsonix. Eagle seems to be the favorite free package.)
Click to expand...
The Yahoo Pulsonix Users Group I formed gets very little use, presumably
because the product is very easy to use and has very few bugs.

Leon
 
Why did the great American people attach so much importance to president
Clinton's little white lies about harmless sex with his secretary during
working hours?
 
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> says...

I just downloaded the Pulsonix demo, and every item in every
pulldown menu consists of the same three random characters.
When I close it and restart it I get a different set of three
random characters.

System details: Compaq Proliant 5500R with quad Pentium Pro
processors (200Mhz, 1MB cache each) and 3GB of RAM. OS I
installed it on is Windows NT 4.0 SP6a with all of the latest
patches. (After I get it running in NT I plan on trying it
under WINE in Slackware Linux.)

Before installing Pulsonix, I installed ExpressPCB, DIA, Vutrax,
Eagle and SwCAD, and they all work fine.

Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Here is what it looks like: http://www.guymacon.com/pulsonix.bmp



--
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire.
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like
Doc Brown can solve? My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/
 
I read in sci.electronics.design that Guy Macon <http@?.guymacon.com>
wrote (in <e6SdnUMpGMUU3fXd4p2dnA@speakeasy.net>) about 'Pulsonix
problem', on Mon, 29 Mar 2004:
Here is what it looks like: http://www.guymacon.com/pulsonix.bmp
Click to expand...
BIG FILE!
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
 
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:28:03 -0800, the renowned Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com> wrote:

Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> says...

I just downloaded the Pulsonix demo, and every item in every
pulldown menu consists of the same three random characters.
When I close it and restart it I get a different set of three
random characters.

System details: Compaq Proliant 5500R with quad Pentium Pro
processors (200Mhz, 1MB cache each) and 3GB of RAM. OS I
installed it on is Windows NT 4.0 SP6a with all of the latest
patches. (After I get it running in NT I plan on trying it
under WINE in Slackware Linux.)

Before installing Pulsonix, I installed ExpressPCB, DIA, Vutrax,
Eagle and SwCAD, and they all work fine.

Any suggestions?

Here is what it looks like: http://www.guymacon.com/pulsonix.bmp
Click to expand...
Hmm.. you mentioned you had some Japanese language stuff on your
machine?

http://www.pulsonix.com/FAQ/0006_WindowsMessages.htm

BTW, if you save the BMP file as a GIF it will be more like 10K than
2M in size!

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
 
Terry,

http://www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/ECADList.html
does not render properly under my standards-compliant browser
(Gecko-based Mozilla 1.4).

The AUTOTRAX EDA header overwrites the atlc description.
When I change the font size to 75%, the overlap goes away.

I do notice that AUTOTRAX is the only title
which does not appear BELOW its respective divider line.
 
Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> says...

Hmm.. you mentioned you had some Japanese language stuff on your
machine?
Click to expand...
No. Some .pdf microcontroller datasheets on the web have Japanese
or Chinese characters, and the standard Adobe Acrobat Reader that
we all use takes a long time to print them.


--
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire.
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like
Doc Brown can solve? My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/
 
On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:39:14 -0800, Chris Carlen wrote:

<snip>

I use Eagle for board layout. It's not too expensive, and the newest
version sports a lot of sophisticated features for more serious designs.
It is very popular among designers needing a "midrange" package. It
also runs natively on Linux, which is a big plus since if you are going
to get a real education rather than just job training, you should become
familiar with the art and science of *computing* rather than "using a
computer". Thus, exposure to Linux would be an essential ingredient
toward that end. LtSpice also runs perfectly well under WINE in Linux.
Click to expand...
I use Eagle for both schematic and board, and it fullfills my humble needs.
For non-commericial use, there is a restricted version for free.
I think the quality of the component libraries that come with anything you
choose is very important, otherwise you'll spend quite some time making
'real-world' components.

Mat Nieuwenhoven
 
Fred Bloggs wrote:

First Year Student wrote:

I am a First Year Student going for a BSEE.

When I get into industry, they will want me to know how to do
Schematic Capture, PWB Layout, and SPICE simulation. What software is
the most
popular and/or most likely to land me a good job?


The ORCAD suite of products is the de facto industry standard by far,
and this would be the "best" for your purposes. Everything else snatches
at crumbs of the market from buyers who can't afford the big guns.

I will pop in here, and say that the Orcad Unison Ultra Suite will do
Click to expand...
what you want for a mere $5K... :cool:


--
Charlie
--
Edmondson Engineering
Unique Solutions to Unusual Problems
 
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:22:39 +0100 (CET), "Mat Nieuwenhoven"
<mnieuw@dontincludethis.zap.a2000.nl> wrote:


I use Eagle for both schematic and board, and it fullfills my humble needs.
For non-commericial use, there is a restricted version for free.
I think the quality of the component libraries that come with anything you
choose is very important, otherwise you'll spend quite some time making
'real-world' components.

Mat Nieuwenhoven
Click to expand...
Conversely, I think the quality of the supplied libraries is fairly
unimportant, but the library editors _must_ be easy to use.

I've used various versions of Protel for many years, and I _still_
find that I generally have to make new schematic or PCB parts for
almost every job I do. There are so many different ICs available that
you just can't expect any CAD maker to cover them all in their
libraries (and when I use Altera FPGAs, I would want to make my own
schematic symbols, even if Protel provided a "generic" symbol for the
part - my symbols will have the pins labelled to suit my application,
not just as "I/O123", or somesuch.)


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca
 
Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net> says...
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote:

System details: Compaq Proliant 5500R with quad Pentium Pro
processors (200Mhz, 1MB cache each) and 3GB of RAM. OS I
installed it on is Windows NT 4.0 SP6a with all of the latest
patches. (After I get it running in NT I plan on trying it
under WINE in Slackware Linux.)

I wouldn't buy a Compaq after what I learnt this weekend.
I'll post that OT in another thread.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't buy anything they make today, but old Compaq
computers are real workhorses that will outlast lesser PCs.

--
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire.
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like
Doc Brown can solve? My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/
 
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:57:37 -0800, Mac wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:08:14 +0000, First Year Student wrote:


I am a First Year Student going for a BSEE.

When I get into industry, they will want me to
know how to do Schematic Capture, PWB Layout,
and SPICE simulation. What software is the most
popular and/or most likely to land me a good job?
Price is no object for me; I have a large trust
fund and would rather spend this month's $25K
check on software than on the stuff I usually
waste it on.

Related question; if I ever become an independent,
what's the best (as opposed to most widely used)
software for Schematic Capture, PWB Layout, and
SPICE simulation? Again, price is no object.

-- First Year Student

I've used mentor graphics's high-end tool-chain and the cadence "capture"
program for schematic capture. For a single individual, there is no way I
could recommend mentor's high end tools. They are such a pain in the ass,
and I think they are too expensive for a non-institutional buyer. (Even a
trust-fund kid ;-) I think they have some mid-level tools now, and those
might work OK for you, but I haven't tried them. Cadence's capture is
decent enough, and it is considered a "real" tool in industry.

I don't do routing, and for the most part, I suggest you not do too much
of it either. It's handy to be able to dash out a quick prototype and it
may help you on your projects at school, but in industry, the guys who
route the boards are usually less like BSEE types and more like
CAD-operator types. A skilled autorouter operator is an exception, but as
a first year student, with no industry experience, you aren't going to
understand how to work an autorouter.

So if you are determined to do this, I would say, get "capture" from
cadence, or get an entry or mid-level tool from mentor graphics. For
routing, just get the one that plays nicely with whichever schematic
capture tool you decide on.

For spice, HSPICE seems to be the industry standard, at least at the IC
design level. I think it's really expensive. I've never used it. LTSpice
(which is free) is probably more than good enough for you for now. You
could also get a simulator that is well-integrated with your schematic
capture tool.

You can also get ngspice, which is basically the old Berkeley spice, with
some updates. I'm pretty sure they've got it working on Windows, but you
can definitely compile it for linux.

Ultimately, time spent on your curriculum will probably benefit you more
than learning specific CAD tools. In some cases, your curriculum might
actually involve using CAD tools, of course.
Click to expand...
It will. A lot of EE pages from the university sites have CAD
related stuff and you'll find pages on how to set up your account
for running simulations for assignments.
Also, for the most part, beginners shouldn't use spice. It will just
postpone real understanding. If you already know some circuit theory, then
it might be OK.
Click to expand...
Actually, it can be a good visual aid toward understanding. Beats
the hell out of plotting on paper, if nothing else.

And lets not forget that CAD is not restricted to capture, spice,
and layout. Many university course sites also have notes heavily
dependant on Mathcad, MATLAB (real popular, it seems), some
Mathematica, and LabView.

I'd suggest that First Year Student get with some upperclassmen and
find out WTF software he will be required to purchase for his
courses and get it ahead of time so he can become familiar with it.
When I was in school, we got the very first MACs. The software
wasn't worth spit except for Multiplan (gotta manage that trust fund
money) - the physics department later hacked it for use in lab
homework and other stuff. Problem was that just to take your FORTRAN
course, you had to learn to use the school's minicomputer system
which sported the PrimeII OS. The manual was about an inch thick and
unless someone took you by the hand and showed you what you needed
to know, yuo had to RTFM. Time basiclly wasted when all you need to
do is enter your code and compile.

So learning how to use the software, time permitting, would gove one
an edge when it's do or die time.

One thing to keep in mind is that the high-end, expensive tools often are
designed to manage everything from schematic capture and layout to
inventory control and costing and so on. Some of them only run on Unix,
and there is an expectation that there will be a dedicated staff of people
just to maintain the tool. It simply doesn't make sense for you to invest
in learning this type of tool unless you work for a company that uses it,
and they will most likely expect to train you anyway.
Click to expand...
Possibly while still in school if the school has a co-op program.
Hey, I just thought of another idea: Get some free software type tools
(gSchem for schematic capture, pcb for layout, and ngspice for
simulation -- see http://geda.seul.org) and donate some of the $10,000 you
save to the various projects. I believe they all accept donations. There
is a grand tradition of rich benefactors supporting worthy causes. Maybe
you could be such a benefactor for open-source EDA projects. Just a
thought. ;-)
Click to expand...
"I represent the Association for the Free Ejaculation of Windoze. We
are dedicated to eradicating doze doze. We need money..."
- Anonymous
--
Best Regards,
Mike
 
Terry Pinnell <terrypin@dial.pipex.com> wrote:

jeffm_@email.com (JeffM) wrote:

Terry,

http://www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/ECADList.html
does not render properly under my standards-compliant browser
(Gecko-based Mozilla 1.4).

The AUTOTRAX EDA header overwrites the atlc description.
When I change the font size to 75%, the overlap goes away.

I do notice that AUTOTRAX is the only title
which does not appear BELOW its respective divider line.

OK, Jeff, I'll take a look. Sun's shining today, so I'm about to set
off for a hike. Maybe sort it tonight.
Click to expand...
I reckon that's now fixed. Look OK to you?

--
Terry Pinnell
Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK
 
I read in sci.electronics.design that Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net>
wrote (in <1g43a72gimkyf.dlg@news.individual.net>) about 'Software for
Schematic, PWB, and Spice?', on Tue, 30 Mar 2004:
I'd suggest that First Year Student get with some upperclassmen and
find out WTF software he will be required to purchase for his
courses and get it ahead of time so he can become familiar with it.
Click to expand...
It'll be out of date by the time he's an upperclassman. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
 
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:14:39 -0800, Guy Macon wrote:

Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net> says...

Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote:

System details: Compaq Proliant 5500R with quad Pentium Pro
processors (200Mhz, 1MB cache each) and 3GB of RAM. OS I
installed it on is Windows NT 4.0 SP6a with all of the latest
patches. (After I get it running in NT I plan on trying it
under WINE in Slackware Linux.)

I wouldn't buy a Compaq after what I learnt this weekend.
I'll post that OT in another thread.

I wouldn't buy anything they make today, but old Compaq
computers are real workhorses that will outlast lesser PCs.
Click to expand...
Well, the speed tells me it's older than mine. I didn't know NT
could handle 4 MPUs, though. I thought it was limited to 2.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
 
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