Small proto boxes with LCD and buttons?

[Joerg]

Hello Steve,

scuba gadgets with custom graphic LCD's appear to be in the $100's
(first hit on Google)

http://www.joediveramerica.com/page/JDA/CTGY/comp

I saw that when I tried to find it back via Google. But these are high
priced and non-graphic LCD. The one I saw did not have download
capabilities but could display the depth profile of a dive on its LCD.
It was much cheaper but you could not use it for the statistical
analysis that many experienced divers are after.

For the RF stuff, probably they make less money on the $100 unit then
on the $500 unit, the 1/3 rule applies to everything you sell, not to
each specific product, its an average, you could have loss leaders
that sells for 1/2 cost/sell ratio to get customers in the door, and
then sell others with a 1/5 cost/sell ratio to keep you business.

That's dangerous for a company as young as that. Typically the cheap
stuff sells like hot cakes and they couldn't stomach a loss leader in
that market segment for long.

I have designed loss leaders myself but for corporations who made their
core revenue with other products that generated a solid profit per unit.
They only needed the loss leader accessories to augment the sales
numbers of their mainstream products.

... Probably that depth gauge could be made for $20 if everyone
standardized on a particular box/LCD display, but would the scuba guy
buy a $20 depth gauge that looks like a digital clock? I have no idea,
maybe the smallest/shape is very important and is worth the $250 bucks.
just my thoughts on the subject

Not the pros but newcomers would certainly buy it. It's the same as with

cars. Young people on a tight budget buy a little Honda and soup that
up. Then when they are in their 40's and their career was somewhat
successful they'll eye that new Corvette or Porsche.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On 26 Jul 2005 11:37:33 -0700, the renowned bungalow_steve@yahoo.com
wrote:

You can buy LCD digital clocks with a nice case and buttons for under
$10,

Under $1 from the factory.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Joerg]

Hello Spehro,

You can buy LCD digital clocks with a nice case and buttons for under
$10,

Under $1 from the factory.

Probably even less at times. I have found an LCD watch with graphics
display (it could make "faces") in a box of cereal. The whole box
including cereal was large and under $4. Heck, the watch even came
running with a fresh battery.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:48:29 GMT, the renowned Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Spehro,

You can buy LCD digital clocks with a nice case and buttons for under
$10,

Under $1 from the factory.

Probably even less at times. I have found an LCD watch with graphics
display (it could make "faces") in a box of cereal. The whole box
including cereal was large and under $4. Heck, the watch even came
running with a fresh battery.

My client in Hong Kong was amazed how expensive batteries are at
retail in the West. He knew they were 'expensive', but was still
astounded at how much a couple button cells go for. His main product
has a CMOS chip, battery, and some electromechanical stuff (maybe a
dozen or two parts) and sells for about fifty cents. The crappy
competitive versions sell for less than a quarter.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Frank Bemelman]

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> schreef in bericht
news:jEuFe.685$iM7.54@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...

Hello Frank,

You want the enclosure + lcd and buttons... for <$5... hmm, the
only thing I can think of are Tamagotchi clones. That will give
you the LCD, the zebrastrips, the buttons and the enclosure,
and batteries

I don't know what this is:
http://www.welcome-to-china.com/tama/index.htm

That web site doesn't work too well. Lots of broken links.

Yes, but perhaps there are some contact email addresses on
it - I didn't look much further. But I think you need a
bit more than a tamagotchi.

Perhaps there are some other toys that you could use for
this purpose.

Yes, absolutely. The ideal situation would be a cheap pocket game that
allows outsiders to program a "new game" and maybe connect a little
hardware. But the main thing would be that it needs to be cloning-proof,
IOW nobody should be able to simply copy it. With a uC you have that
capability by blowing the JTAG fuse and maintaining strong password
protection for the bootstrap loader.

For the LCD you could look at nokia LCD replacements, from China.
http://www.foreways.net/nokia_LCD.htm

For instance, the 3310 nokia display, 84x48 pixels, with a serial
driven controller on the glass, is perhaps good enough for your
gadget. I bet you can buy these for $2 or less, if you buy 5000.

But something with an enclosure too... I don't know. Perhaps you
could make an enclosure of lasercut plexiglass, made from a stack
of 3 or 4 pieces glued together. Sounds like a nightmare, to be
honest

Cloning-proof is not needed - you're making it so cheap that
nobody wants to clone it


--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

 

[Frank Bemelman]

"Frank Bemelman" <f.bemelmanq@xs4all.invalid.nl> schreef in bericht
news:42e6b43f$0$58516$e4fe514c@dreader12.news.xs4all.nl...

For the LCD you could look at nokia LCD replacements, from China.
http://www.foreways.net/nokia_LCD.htm

I forgot, they seem to have bare nokia enclosures too, some of them
might be suitable for a general gadget.

So pick up the phone and call them

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

 

[Joerg]

Hello Spehro,

My client in Hong Kong was amazed how expensive batteries are at
retail in the West. He knew they were 'expensive', but was still
astounded at how much a couple button cells go for. His main product
has a CMOS chip, battery, and some electromechanical stuff (maybe a
dozen or two parts) and sells for about fifty cents. The crappy
competitive versions sell for less than a quarter.

That is the reason why I am looking mostly at Asian suppliers. We had
the same experience with discrete circuits that I designed. The parts
cost we could achieve in China blew me away, along with any plans
whatsoever to migrate it to a uC. Not a chance. TI claims on their site
that MSP430 device pricing starts at 49c. Problem is, that device ain't
there. It really starts at just under a Dollar and that is too much for
most apps.

Same with domestic LCD suppliers. Simple 16*2 character versions around
$5-$10. No chance. The problem with Asian suppliers is similar to
Europeans in that they don't disclose their pricing easily. So it takes
forever to get that data.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Joerg]

Hello Frank,

Yes, but perhaps there are some contact email addresses on
it - I didn't look much further. But I think you need a
bit more than a tamagotchi.

From an LCD point of view, not really. 84*48 would be overkill (but
would work, of course).

For the LCD you could look at nokia LCD replacements, from China.
http://www.foreways.net/nokia_LCD.htm

Thanks.

For instance, the 3310 nokia display, 84x48 pixels, with a serial
driven controller on the glass, is perhaps good enough for your
gadget. I bet you can buy these for $2 or less, if you buy 5000.

$2 would be ok at several thousand, especially with a COG controller.

But something with an enclosure too... I don't know. Perhaps you
could make an enclosure of lasercut plexiglass, made from a stack
of 3 or 4 pieces glued together. Sounds like a nightmare, to be
honest

Or one could just use the cell phone housing as is and cover the dial
button area with something custom. That just leaves the battery holder
issue since cell phone batteries are too expensive.

Cloning-proof is not needed - you're making it so cheap that
nobody wants to clone it

Until somebody finds a way to make it even cheaper ;-)

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

The cost difference is true for everything, not just electronics, food
is more expensive in the US then anywhere else in the world, $4 for a
box of cereal that contains 2 cents worth of corn and sugar(thats how
they afford to put a watch in the box) , or a dollar for an apple here,
a dollar a bushel over there....

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On 26 Jul 2005 19:29:53 -0700, the renowned bungalow_steve@yahoo.com
wrote:

The cost difference is true for everything, not just electronics, food
is more expensive in the US then anywhere else in the world..

?? The US has bargain-basement costs compared to a lot of developed
places in the world. Cheap land, cheaper energy, business-friendly
labor and environmental standards, large market with few internal
barriers, etc.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

Yes, unfortunately those factors have nothing to do with retail prices,
the develped world pays the same price the US does for wheat and corn
due to artifical price supports. If the cost of food at the farm
dropped to zero, the effect on retail prices would be very little;
distribution systems, taxes, government price support, limited
production (paying farmers not to produce, the quota system), limited
import quotas are what determine the retail price. Local grown sugar
"cost" (real price cereal companies have to pay) here is four as high
as the rest of the world due to old legacy government price support
systems that are out of date (and imports are heavily restricted.)
Same with peanut butter and a variety of other foods.

 

[Joerg]

Hello Spehro,

The cost difference is true for everything, not just electronics, food
is more expensive in the US then anywhere else in the world..

?? The US has bargain-basement costs compared to a lot of developed
places in the world. Cheap land, cheaper energy, business-friendly
labor and environmental standards, large market with few internal
barriers, etc.

I beg to differ. The US is a wonderful country with great people but
having lived in other countries and traveled to many more I think it's
more like this:

Land and real estate is extremely expensive in the US, or about twice of
what it is in Germany. Exceptions are maybe central areas (Arkansas
etc.) where cost is comparable.

Cheap energy? I paid 4c/kWh in Germany. After moving to the US I was in
for a rude awakening: 12c/kWh. Ouch. Ok, gas is cheaper here.

Biz friendly labor? Ahem.... certainly not in California.

Standards are a bit more lax here than, say, in Europe. So there I'd
kind of agree.

Large market, too, but we do not have the free flowing trade among
borders like Europe does down into the private sector. There it is a
piece of cake to sell something in another country or buy something
there. Always was. I can buy meds in Canada except that I don't need
any. But I cannot buy a car there. Regulations pretty much prevent me
from doing that.

Few internal barriers? Ahem, the state tax and sales tax system is
rather archaic. A neighbor does accounting across states. It is
certainly not fun at all. Then there are laws and regulations that
nobody really needs such as licensing. Many states do not trust
universities, some bureaucrat decides whether you can call yourself an
engineer or not. Work in another state? Need a new licensee, from some
other bureaucrats. And oh, plus a fee, of course.

I think Steve has a point. When a lunch in the US costs $6 and the same
lunch costs 70c in India something is out of kilter. It will have to
correct itself and that process is likely going to be somewhat painful.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:33:29 GMT, the renowned Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Spehro,

The cost difference is true for everything, not just electronics, food
is more expensive in the US then anywhere else in the world..

?? The US has bargain-basement costs compared to a lot of developed
places in the world. Cheap land, cheaper energy, business-friendly
labor and environmental standards, large market with few internal
barriers, etc.

I beg to differ. The US is a wonderful country with great people but
having lived in other countries and traveled to many more I think it's
more like this:

Land and real estate is extremely expensive in the US, or about twice of
what it is in Germany. Exceptions are maybe central areas (Arkansas
etc.) where cost is comparable.

Compare on a square-foot basis, industrial land and homes. New York
isn't even in the top ten of most expensive cities worldwide. London
prices look about right if they were USD rather than pounds. Tokyo
isn't as crazy as it used to be in relative terms, but it's still
pretty expensive. A decent (but not palatial) residence for a young
investment banker I know was costing his company $200K/year.
To rent a small house in Hong Kong might run $10-20K USD/month. You'd
have to compare a 500sq ft gross (maybe 400 sq ft net) microscopic
apartment with a 3-bedroom luxury condo in the Los Angeles area to be
in the same range.

Goods of international quality in stores are almost always cheaper in
the US than elsewhere, often imported goods are even cheaper than
their country of origin. Meat is not much cheaper in China than in the
US, poor people just eat a lot less of it. And it's lower quality.

And income and corporate taxes are relatively low (perhaps not as low
as the PR would have you believe when they are all added up, but still
significantly lower than most industrialized countries).

Cheap energy? I paid 4c/kWh in Germany. After moving to the US I was in
for a rude awakening: 12c/kWh. Ouch. Ok, gas is cheaper here.

That's California for ya. No 30-100% tax on cars either. Insurance in
the US can be more expensive (especially liability) as is health care.

Biz friendly labor? Ahem.... certainly not in California.

Labor regulations- very easy to get rid of people, low minimum wage
compared to cost of living, fairly weak unions, lots of cheap labor
pouring over the southern border for low-skill set work. Consumer
protection laws are probably not all that different.

Standards are a bit more lax here than, say, in Europe. So there I'd
kind of agree.

Large market, too, but we do not have the free flowing trade among
borders like Europe does down into the private sector.

The US is about the size of Western Europe, so you have to compare
state barriers vs. country barriers.

There it is a
piece of cake to sell something in another country or buy something
there. Always was. I can buy meds in Canada except that I don't need
any. But I cannot buy a car there. Regulations pretty much prevent me
from doing that.

I think the state barriers are of more importance than the 10% extra
market north of the 49th parallel.

Few internal barriers? Ahem, the state tax and sales tax system is
rather archaic. A neighbor does accounting across states. It is
certainly not fun at all. Then there are laws and regulations that
nobody really needs such as licensing. Many states do not trust
universities, some bureaucrat decides whether you can call yourself an
engineer or not. Work in another state? Need a new licensee, from some
other bureaucrats. And oh, plus a fee, of course.

Compare state barriers to country barriers in Europe. Yes, there are
some licensing barriers, which is more than none, but they are
relatively few and affect relatively little commerce.

I think Steve has a point. When a lunch in the US costs $6 and the same
lunch costs 70c in India something is out of kilter. It will have to
correct itself and that process is likely going to be somewhat painful.

Labor is the big difference. India has an infinite supply of miserably
poor people to make lunch and young boys to deliver a cup of hot tea
to you from a shop for a few rupees. They are in less supply in the
US. This is not necessarily a bad thing in a developed country.

The change now is that whereas before China and India made paper fans
and parasols for drinks, now they are doing grunt work in coding and
making light industrial goods on a competitive basis. The cream of the
crop of poor people are very smart, because they come from a huge pool
with few options. This will take some adjustment, but I don't believe
it will necessarily be all that painful. More painful for those who
don't (or can't because of age and other factors) adapt. But for our
children, and their children*, I don't see things being necessarily
worse, any more than the move off of farms caused conditions to be
worse. They are different, and better. I expect our relative wealth to
decrease, but our absolute wealth to be maintained or increase.

*I believe in making the world safe for our children, but not our
children's children, because I don't think children should be having
sex.
-- Deep Thoughts, Jack Handy



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Joerg]

Hello Spehro,

Compare on a square-foot basis, industrial land and homes. New York
isn't even in the top ten of most expensive cities worldwide. London
prices look about right if they were USD rather than pounds. Tokyo
isn't as crazy as it used to be in relative terms, but it's still
pretty expensive. A decent (but not palatial) residence for a young
investment banker I know was costing his company $200K/year.
To rent a small house in Hong Kong might run $10-20K USD/month. You'd
have to compare a 500sq ft gross (maybe 400 sq ft net) microscopic
apartment with a 3-bedroom luxury condo in the Los Angeles area to be
in the same range.

Big cities isn't where young enterprises will start or settle. A couple
of years ago a neighbor was able to rent a decent apartment in the
Shanghai suburbs for $75 a month, utilities included.

The trend in the US is to move away from high cost cities and back to
rural settings. Not a bad thing. This way SW guys are better able to
compete with Indians.

Goods of international quality in stores are almost always cheaper in
the US than elsewhere, often imported goods are even cheaper than
their country of origin. Meat is not much cheaper in China than in the
US, poor people just eat a lot less of it. And it's lower quality.

I don't know. Whenever people come back from Asia their suitcases brim
with custom made clothing at less than half the cost of a cheap
off-the-rack version here. Then watches, electronic gadgets etc.

And income and corporate taxes are relatively low (perhaps not as low
as the PR would have you believe when they are all added up, but still
significantly lower than most industrialized countries).

Ahm, take property taxes. An engineer in NY state was very miffed one
day. They reassessed the neighborhood to milk them some more. Now they
pay about $10,000 a year for a rather modest home versus $6,500 before
he said. Ouch. Where on earth would he get that additional $3,500 from?
To add insult to injury he'll probably end up in the AMT snare because
of that and then has to cough up all that dough from his net income.

Cheap energy? I paid 4c/kWh in Germany. After moving to the US I was in
for a rude awakening: 12c/kWh. Ouch. Ok, gas is cheaper here.

That's California for ya. No 30-100% tax on cars either. Insurance in
the US can be more expensive (especially liability) as is health care.

Health care cost is quite prohibitive. We pay about $5k a year for a
modest package for two. When you get sick you will be socked with huge
copays. So you can't get sick. If you do get really sick you probably
will become a pariah via the medical database and never be able to
secure a new health care plan. Use it and lose it.

Liability insurance? Depending on your field of work the number of
underwriters that might take you is zilch. They consider you a higher
risk than an oil tanker with an inebriated crew. Been there.

Labor regulations- very easy to get rid of people, low minimum wage
compared to cost of living, fairly weak unions, lots of cheap labor
pouring over the southern border for low-skill set work. Consumer
protection laws are probably not all that different.

Not quite. Our workers comp rates are the highest and add a huge chunk
to payroll costs. I know businesses who either haven't been started or
haven't hired anyone because of that. A roofer told me he had to lay off
all his staff because of it. Lots of abuse has been reported yet unions
fiercely defend those "rights". I have lived in The Netherlands and
AFAIK it's still the same there: For a potential employer workers comp
costs do not exist. It used to be a tax'em - spend it country which is
why I left. That changed and now biz is booming pretty good there.

What high biz costs like this do: An engineer has a great idea. Then he
realizes that he'd really need at least some local well-educated staff
to do it. Instantly he dismisses the thought and moves on to the usual
grunt work where he doesn't need employees.

The US is about the size of Western Europe, so you have to compare
state barriers vs. country barriers.

I found country barriers to be not an issue there. When I ordered stuff
from the UK or other countries it wasn't a big deal. Businesses are VAT
neutral so even that was a breeze to handle in book keeping. My sales
tax reporting was a mere press of a button on the PC, print two copies
and send one off. 10 minutes tops, with coffee. Now I believe it's
electronic. Talking to a neighbor who has a store that can be an
entirely hair-pulling matter here.

There it is a
piece of cake to sell something in another country or buy something
there. Always was. I can buy meds in Canada except that I don't need
any. But I cannot buy a car there. Regulations pretty much prevent me

from doing that.

I think the state barriers are of more importance than the 10% extra
market north of the 49th parallel.

Same thing. Buying a car from another state can cause a bloody nose when

you try to register it and they say that it doesn't have certification
that it complies with this or that regulation. You may end up with a car
you aren't allowed to drive.

Compare state barriers to country barriers in Europe. Yes, there are
some licensing barriers, which is more than none, but they are
relatively few and affect relatively little commerce.

That was just one example. But in all fairness, other areas of the world
are also setting up regs that have zero (or rather a negative) benefit
for the public. ROHS is just one example.

Labor is the big difference. India has an infinite supply of miserably
poor people to make lunch and young boys to deliver a cup of hot tea
to you from a shop for a few rupees. They are in less supply in the
US. This is not necessarily a bad thing in a developed country.

True. And you can escape such costs here by making your own lunch.

The change now is that whereas before China and India made paper fans
and parasols for drinks, now they are doing grunt work in coding and
making light industrial goods on a competitive basis. The cream of the
crop of poor people are very smart, because they come from a huge pool
with few options. This will take some adjustment, but I don't believe
it will necessarily be all that painful. More painful for those who
don't (or can't because of age and other factors) adapt. But for our
children, and their children*, I don't see things being necessarily
worse, any more than the move off of farms caused conditions to be
worse. They are different, and better. I expect our relative wealth to
decrease, but our absolute wealth to be maintained or increase.

I don't see it negative either. But in order to make the new world work
many of our liberal politicians will have to come off their high seats
and realize that tax revenues will inevitably shrink and lots of pork
must be cut. In California they haven't learned that yet.

I believe we will see a continued move back to lower cost areas which is
probably a good thing. Children need to be taught to remain flexible and
not too attached to one region, or one country for that matter.

*I believe in making the world safe for our children, but not our
children's children, because I don't think children should be having
sex.
-- Deep Thoughts, Jack Handy

ROFL!

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Zak]

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

My client in Hong Kong was amazed how expensive batteries are at
retail in the West.

Actually there is a god flow of button batteries now. 6 types of 4 each
alkaline on a blister card for 1 euro retail, or 5 lithium buttons.

Much better than the 'how much can we charge you to get your expensive
widget working again' prices we had before.


Thomas

 

[Joerg]

Hello Zak,

Much better than the 'how much can we charge you to get your expensive
widget working again' prices we had before.

That can be avoided by checking the type of batteries before purchase of
the widget. If it ain't something normal like a V377 I ain't gonna buy
it. If the manual doesn't say and the store employee doesn't want to
open it I ain't gonna buy it either.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com