Small proto boxes with LCD and buttons?

[Joerg]

Hello Folks,

Many of us have been there: You or a client want to test market a new
small gizmo. It needs the usual, a small no-frills graphics LCD, some
buttons and a battery. All in a nice little plastic case but shelling
out >10k for molds just isn't in the cards at this stage.

Is any company offering such generic prototype boxes? Ideally they
should contain a small graphics LCD, 3-4 buttons, a battery holder and
cost under $5 in qties of, say, 1000. Size of a pager maybe, with room
for one or two square inches for the circuit board.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[martin griffith]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:27:11 GMT, in sci.electronics.design Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Folks,

Many of us have been there: You or a client want to test market a new
small gizmo. It needs the usual, a small no-frills graphics LCD, some
buttons and a battery. All in a nice little plastic case but shelling
out >10k for molds just isn't in the cards at this stage.

Is any company offering such generic prototype boxes? Ideally they
should contain a small graphics LCD, 3-4 buttons, a battery holder and
cost under $5 in qties of, say, 1000. Size of a pager maybe, with room
for one or two square inches for the circuit board.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

how about
http://www.pactecenclosures.com/


martin

 

[Joerg]

Hello Martin,

how about
http://www.pactecenclosures.com/

Thanks. We have used their stuff before. Nice. The problem is that there
won't be any LCD or buttons. Doing that in a contract setting adds a lot
of cost. Also, the minute you want something as mundane as a battery
holder in there the pricing shoots up to several Dollars. Like this one:
http://www.pactecenclosures.com/Plastic-Enclosures/RC-24-9VB_2AA.html

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[martin griffith]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:05:03 GMT, in sci.electronics.design Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Martin,

how about
http://www.pactecenclosures.com/

Thanks. We have used their stuff before. Nice. The problem is that there
won't be any LCD or buttons. Doing that in a contract setting adds a lot
of cost. Also, the minute you want something as mundane as a battery
holder in there the pricing shoots up to several Dollars. Like this one:
http://www.pactecenclosures.com/Plastic-Enclosures/RC-24-9VB_2AA.html

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
As you said, a diiffcult situation.

I did notice that pactec have a custom site somewhere on their page.

In the past the company I meddle with used Bopla, (a dreadful
website) for small runs, with membrane keyboards, with a transparent
section covering the LCD They weren't too expensive, but it was a few
years ago

Maybe we need an Olimex/pcbexpress for boxes


martin

 

your price target seems off by an order of magnitude, you be hard
pressed to buy a raw off-the-shelf non graphics LCD for less then $5,
let alone a graphics LCD + buttons + battery holder + case all pre
assembled for you.

 

[Joerg]

Hello Martin,

As you said, a diiffcult situation.

Yes. One method is to search for exisiting products that kind of match
the mechanical requirements and have the right kind of LCD on board,
then talk to their technical leadership to see if they would be
interested in an OEM deal. Problem is, often they aren't interested.

In the past the company I meddle with used Bopla, (a dreadful
website) for small runs, with membrane keyboards, with a transparent
section covering the LCD They weren't too expensive, but it was a few
years ago

They make good enclosures. The web site is indeed not too great, the
customary mistake of assuming that everybody and the world is familiar
with their trademark names such as Euromas and so on. Many European
companies seem to have difficulties creating an efficient web site.

Maybe we need an Olimex/pcbexpress for boxes

Absolutely. It would be a huge business opportunity. Ideally it should
be a company that can then also take care of the assembly side, ROHS and
all that.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Frank Bemelman]

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> schreef in bericht
newsh9Fe.337$kk6.332@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...

Hello Folks,

Many of us have been there: You or a client want to test market a new
small gizmo. It needs the usual, a small no-frills graphics LCD, some
buttons and a battery. All in a nice little plastic case but shelling
out >10k for molds just isn't in the cards at this stage.

Is any company offering such generic prototype boxes? Ideally they
should contain a small graphics LCD, 3-4 buttons, a battery holder and
cost under $5 in qties of, say, 1000. Size of a pager maybe, with room
for one or two square inches for the circuit board.

You want the enclosure + lcd and buttons... for <$5... hmm, the
only thing I can think of are Tamagotchi clones. That will give
you the LCD, the zebrastrips, the buttons and the enclosure,
and batteries

I don't know what this is:
http://www.welcome-to-china.com/tama/index.htm

Perhaps there are some other toys that you could use for
this purpose.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:05:03 GMT, the renowned Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Martin,

how about
http://www.pactecenclosures.com/

Thanks. We have used their stuff before. Nice. The problem is that there
won't be any LCD or buttons. Doing that in a contract setting adds a lot
of cost. Also, the minute you want something as mundane as a battery
holder in there the pricing shoots up to several Dollars. Like this one:
http://www.pactecenclosures.com/Plastic-Enclosures/RC-24-9VB_2AA.html

Cheap and low volume are not a good combination. The enclosure makers
will eat the profits, and you won't likely get a great fit (meaning
lots of work, and more likely quality issues).

I've noticed that European suppliers are pretty good in this area
(OKW, for example), probably because there are so many smallish
electronics companies in Europe.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[martin griffith]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:46:06 GMT, in sci.electronics.design Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Martin,

As you said, a diiffcult situation.

Yes. One method is to search for exisiting products that kind of match
the mechanical requirements and have the right kind of LCD on board,
then talk to their technical leadership to see if they would be
interested in an OEM deal. Problem is, often they aren't interested.

In the past the company I meddle with used Bopla, (a dreadful
website) for small runs, with membrane keyboards, with a transparent
section covering the LCD They weren't too expensive, but it was a few
years ago

They make good enclosures. The web site is indeed not too great, the
customary mistake of assuming that everybody and the world is familiar
with their trademark names such as Euromas and so on. Many European
companies seem to have difficulties creating an efficient web site.

Maybe we need an Olimex/pcbexpress for boxes

Absolutely. It would be a huge business opportunity. Ideally it should
be a company that can then also take care of the assembly side, ROHS and
all that.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

from my enclosure folder, its a bit old, from my IE4 days
http://www.beechcraft-ltd.com/ex20.htm
http://www.bernic.dk/
http://www.boss-enclosures.co.uk/injection_moulded.htm
http://www.hammondmfg.com/eddys.htm
http://www.uniboxenclosures.com/std_enc.htm
http://eshop.bucks.net/inexevatron/shop/cat.asp
http://www.extrusiontechnology.com/prods.html
http://www.intlextrusion.com/stockdies.htm
http://www.hammfg.com/Enclosure/index.htm
http://www2.okw.com/engl/prod.htm
http://www.pactecenclosures.com/
http://www.lincolnbinns.com/linc-ace.htm
http://www.non-ferrous.com/rectuber.htm
http://www.teko.it/Enclos/catalog/rf/pcb/frpcb.htm
http://www.wassco.com/staticcontrol.html
http://ttk-worldwide.com/
http://www.teko.it/Enclos/encfr.htm
http://www.simcobox.com/discovery.html
http://www.luxfer.com/



martin

 

[Joerg]

Hello Martin,

from my enclosure folder, its a bit old, from my IE4 days
http://www.beechcraft-ltd.com/ex20.htm
http://www.bernic.dk/
http://www.boss-enclosures.co.uk/injection_moulded.htm
http://www.hammondmfg.com/eddys.htm
http://www.uniboxenclosures.com/std_enc.htm
http://eshop.bucks.net/inexevatron/shop/cat.asp
http://www.extrusiontechnology.com/prods.html
http://www.intlextrusion.com/stockdies.htm
http://www.hammfg.com/Enclosure/index.htm
http://www2.okw.com/engl/prod.htm
http://www.pactecenclosures.com/
http://www.lincolnbinns.com/linc-ace.htm
http://www.non-ferrous.com/rectuber.htm
http://www.teko.it/Enclos/catalog/rf/pcb/frpcb.htm
http://www.wassco.com/staticcontrol.html
http://ttk-worldwide.com/
http://www.teko.it/Enclos/encfr.htm
http://www.simcobox.com/discovery.html
http://www.luxfer.com/

Thanks! Some of the names sound very familiar.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Joerg]

Hello Spehro,

Cheap and low volume are not a good combination. The enclosure makers
will eat the profits, and you won't likely get a great fit (meaning
lots of work, and more likely quality issues).

That's why I believe the only way may be to convince a company with a
very similar product but in another market to run this one "on the
side", like a shuttle.

I've noticed that European suppliers are pretty good in this area
(OKW, for example), probably because there are so many smallish
electronics companies in Europe.

OKW is more high end. For example their Datec Control-S is about $20.
Just the plastic shells without the optional battery holder. Ouch. It
would be cheaper to buy toy games at Walmart and have someone scrape the
innards out.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Joerg]

Hello Steve,

your price target seems off by an order of magnitude, you be hard
pressed to buy a raw off-the-shelf non graphics LCD for less then $5,
let alone a graphics LCD + buttons + battery holder + case all pre
assembled for you.

You can, but not necessarily in the US. How else could they sell these
starting at around $125?
http://www.aaronia.de/

It's not the cheapest kind of display but FSTN. Still, the LCD is by far
one of the least costly items in analyzers like these yet it does have a
graphics portion, plus lots of other character based sections.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Kryten]

Years ago I used BAF boxes (BAF = Bend And Fold).

Instead of mouldings, they take a sheet of thermoplastic and mill V grooves
where they want a fold or other grooves where they want edges to clip
together. They then heat the folds and bend them, then allow them to set.

This works fine for two classic '[' shaped halves, but they can do some very
clever boxes as well.

They were fine for the project I did.

I don't know the money details, but it was certainly cheaper than custom
mouldings!

 

$125 selling price doesn't imply a $5 case/display/switches, that
company was offering a variety of different instruments all with the
same case/display/switches, but with a large difference in price.

The display is probably custom, 1000 units of a custom display is not
pretty, I have no idea what volume these guys are doing, lets assume
1000's.

I suspect the case/display/switches/assembly are about $35, with the
electronics/sensors in the lower priced instruments less then $10,with
a 3x parts markup for selling price. So the lion share of the cost is
the case/display.

For the $500 instruments the lion share of the cost is the
electronics/sensors, reusing the case/display/switches.

The only way display/case/switches cost less then $5 is when you make
millions, like pagers, cell phones, electronic toys etc, here I am of
course assume China manufacturer not US/Germany.

 

[Joerg]

Hello Steve,

$125 selling price doesn't imply a $5 case/display/switches, that
company was offering a variety of different instruments all with the
same case/display/switches, but with a large difference in price.

This display will be more since it's much larger than what I am looking for.

The display is probably custom, 1000 units of a custom display is not
pretty, I have no idea what volume these guys are doing, lets assume
1000's.

It clearly has to be custom. I would think the volumes would be in the
1000's. The market for analyzers is pretty small.

I suspect the case/display/switches/assembly are about $35, with the
electronics/sensors in the lower priced instruments less then $10,with
a 3x parts markup for selling price. So the lion share of the cost is
the case/display.

If that was $35 the company would most likely not exist anymore. The old
rule is that a unit's cost (all the cost) should be about 1/3 or less of
the final sales price. Since the smallest unit retails for 100 Euros and
contains a lot of other stuff including RF the case/display/sw/assy
can't possibly be $35. And 100 Euros is the price if you buy only one.

For the $500 instruments the lion share of the cost is the
electronics/sensors, reusing the case/display/switches.

But how then do they make money with the 100 Euro version?

The only way display/case/switches cost less then $5 is when you make
millions, like pagers, cell phones, electronic toys etc, here I am of
course assume China manufacturer not US/Germany.

Mfg in China is pretty much a must, or maybe elsewhere if the Yuan
appreciates too much after they unleashed it from the Dollar. But there
must be a way to achieve low prices through the adoption of standard
parts. IOW live with what's already there for other higher volume
applications. I do not recall the details since I am not active in that
environment but I have seen small scuba diving gadgets with graphics LCD
(to display depth profiles) that didn't cost much at the store at all.
pretty small market, too.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Joerg]

Hello Kryten,

Years ago I used BAF boxes (BAF = Bend And Fold).

Instead of mouldings, they take a sheet of thermoplastic and mill V grooves
where they want a fold or other grooves where they want edges to clip
together. They then heat the folds and bend them, then allow them to set.

A client of mine achieved huge cost savings by doing that with large
metal enclosures. There was a room with a big machine in there. A steel
coil was hooked up outside and then you heard an incredible racket.
Afterwards all it needed was just one long weld and a few spots. This
shows that cost savings are possible even when everybody else says it is
not possible.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:17:56 GMT, the renowned Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Steve,

your price target seems off by an order of magnitude, you be hard
pressed to buy a raw off-the-shelf non graphics LCD for less then $5,
let alone a graphics LCD + buttons + battery holder + case all pre
assembled for you.

You can, but not necessarily in the US. How else could they sell these
starting at around $125?
http://www.aaronia.de/

They appear to have but one custom case, spread over units that sell
from EUR 100 to EUR 1000. Maybe they shelled out $25K or $50K for that
tooling. Big $%$$ deal, how many hours of engineering does that buy
these days? Their custom LCD glass won't add much to that, and the
rest is soft tooling.

Suggest you tell your client to think bigger.

I'm working on a handheld instrument with roughly similar housing
requirements, the minimum list price will probably have to be about
$400 US to allow for discounts and a distribution chain.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Joerg]

Hello Spehro,

They appear to have but one custom case, spread over units that sell
from EUR 100 to EUR 1000. Maybe they shelled out $25K or $50K for that
tooling. Big $%$$ deal, how many hours of engineering does that buy
these days? Their custom LCD glass won't add much to that, and the
rest is soft tooling.

Yes, that's probably how they did it.

Suggest you tell your client to think bigger.

Not so easy in this case. That would need some VC funding.

I'm working on a handheld instrument with roughly similar housing
requirements, the minimum list price will probably have to be about
$400 US to allow for discounts and a distribution chain.

That would be a problem in this case. The market wouldn't bear front

loading. This fact might or might not render the whole project impossible.

One method would be to get a company interested that already produces a
unit with a suitable LCD/housing/assy for a very different market.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Joerg]

Hello Frank,

You want the enclosure + lcd and buttons... for <$5... hmm, the
only thing I can think of are Tamagotchi clones. That will give
you the LCD, the zebrastrips, the buttons and the enclosure,
and batteries

I don't know what this is:
http://www.welcome-to-china.com/tama/index.htm

That web site doesn't work too well. Lots of broken links.

Perhaps there are some other toys that you could use for
this purpose.

Yes, absolutely. The ideal situation would be a cheap pocket game that
allows outsiders to program a "new game" and maybe connect a little
hardware. But the main thing would be that it needs to be cloning-proof,
IOW nobody should be able to simply copy it. With a uC you have that
capability by blowing the JTAG fuse and maintaining strong password
protection for the bootstrap loader.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

scuba gadgets with custom graphic LCD's appear to be in the $100's
(first hit on Google)

http://www.joediveramerica.com/page/JDA/CTGY/comp

For the RF stuff, probably they make less money on the $100 unit then
on the $500 unit, the 1/3 rule applies to everything you sell, not to
each specific product, its an average, you could have loss leaders
that sells for 1/2 cost/sell ratio to get customers in the door, and
then sell others with a 1/5 cost/sell ratio to keep you business.

You can buy LCD digital clocks with a nice case and buttons for under
$10, but they make billions of these. The problem is there is no
standard for a small graphics LCD box like you describe, every customer
wants something slightly different, a clock is slightly different then
the scuba stuff which is slightly different the RF stuff which is
slightly different then bike odometers etc etc, so its always custom
work. Probably that depth gauge could be made for $20 if everyone
standardized on a particular box/LCD display, but would the scuba guy
buy a $20 depth gauge that looks like a digital clock? I have no idea,
maybe the smallest/shape is very important and is worth the $250 bucks.
just my thoughts on the subject