simple transistor selection question

[Danny Sauer]

Ok, so I know a little about electronic devices. However, I don't
have the parts/spec books memorized like lots of people who do this
stuff all the time.

I'm making a device to make my tail lights flash in entertaining
patterns. It's overkill, but I'm using a PIC microcontroller (a
16f676) to handle the flashing patterns. I've got the device working
just fine with LEDs, but actual 1157 taillight bulbs pull way more
current, which I'm pretty sure will be too darned much for this little
micro to handle. My plan is to replace the LEDs with a transistor to
control each bulb individually. The bright side of an 1157 is usually
around 25-30 watts, so at 12 volts that gives me a worst case of about
2.5 amps. How about allowing for 3 amps at 14.4 volts - 43 watts.
What would be a good transistor to use for this? I can switch either
the positive or negative side, it doesn't really make any difference,
though switching the positive side would likely be a bit more
convenient (more wire to work with).

Can someone recommend a supplier and a part number or something where
I can get stuff in relatively small quantities? I only need about 8
per device, and I'm only building one or two devices for the time
being. If I could get something at the local Radio Shack (there are
no electronics suppliers nearby other than that place), that'd
probably be alright, too.

Thanks a lot!
--Danny

 

[Michael A. Covington]

Quite a few power transistors will work. The main things to note are:

(1) The transistor must be *really* well "turned on" in order to have a low
resistance.

(2) The transistor shouldn't dissipate anywhere near 43 watts. That is, the
transistor wattage has nothing to do with the wattage of your taillights.

(3) Have you considered using relays?

Getting back to transistors, this is not the cheapest solution, but I'd
consider N-channel switching MOSFETS that (a) saturate fully with a
logic-level input (e.g., IRL series, not IRF series), and (b) have an "on"
resistance that is quite low, like 0.2 ohms or less.

I don't have a data sheet in front of me and am about to have to go... If
others don't chime in, let me know.

 

[Dave Platt]

I'm making a device to make my tail lights flash in entertaining
patterns. It's overkill, but I'm using a PIC microcontroller (a
16f676) to handle the flashing patterns. I've got the device working
just fine with LEDs, but actual 1157 taillight bulbs pull way more
current, which I'm pretty sure will be too darned much for this little
micro to handle. My plan is to replace the LEDs with a transistor to
control each bulb individually. The bright side of an 1157 is usually
around 25-30 watts, so at 12 volts that gives me a worst case of about
2.5 amps. How about allowing for 3 amps at 14.4 volts - 43 watts.
What would be a good transistor to use for this? I can switch either
the positive or negative side, it doesn't really make any difference,
though switching the positive side would likely be a bit more
convenient (more wire to work with).

For a high-side switch, you'd want a PNP power transistor, or a PNP
Darlington. [Darlingtons are actually two transistors, connected
together, in a single case. You turn on the first, and the first
turns on the second. A Darlington pair has a much higher current gain
than a single power transistor, and is thus easier to drive.]

You want a part with at *least* a 50-volt limit for auto applications,
due to voltage spikes caused by a phenomenon called "load dump". The
TIP125 and TIP127 Darlingtons have 80-volt limits, and will handle a
maximum collector current of 5 amperes. The NTE262 is an acceptable
substitute for both of these parts.

You should be able to drive the base of one of these from a PIC's
LED-capable output pin, through a current-limiting resistor. Figuring
maybe 15 volts (to be generous) at the transistor, you'd want a
resistor of about 750 ohms between the PIC pin and the base. This
will draw 20 mA out of the base when you turn on the PIC's output
driver (set the pin value to 0 and set the tristate to "drive it,
please"), and should turn on the Darlington quite hard... enough that
its voltage drop will be very low, and it won't dissipate a
significant amount of power in the transformer. I'd guess you won't
even need a heatsink. To turn off the transistor and the light,
just disable the PIC's tristate driver for that pin.

Oh... make sure that you're using one of the PICs which doesn't
mind having its pin "pulled up" to a high voltage when it's
tristated off. Most of the newer ones will tolerate this, I
believe. If you're using one which will malfunction or fry
if the pin is pulled high, then you'll need to drive the
transistor indirectly. Use the PIC to drive the LED in an
optoisolator (ideally one with a 100% or greater current
transfer ratio), and connect the optoisolator's output
between ground and the current-limiting resistor.

www.mouser.com is one source, and I'm sure www.digikey.com also
carries them. Also check the various surplus-electronics outfits on
the Web - www.goldmine-elec.com has TIP127s. Any well-stocked
electronics outfit can probably sell you the NTE262 - the price will
be a good deal higher than for the TIP equivalent but if it's
available locally to you there won't be a shipping charge.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[Suraj Singh]

I think consideration of power dissipation in the transistor is definitely
required. Suppose you are using a silicon NPN power transistor with an on
state voltage of 0.7 Volts at 3A current will dissipate 3*0.7=2.1Watts of
power which is critical and will require a heat sink if ambient temperature
is not too cold ( like an outdoor temp in summer).

You can say that you will be switching your transistor on and off and it
will be off for 50% of the time. If your switching frequency is fast enough
( more that few seconds) you can divide the power by 2. Now if you are
dissipating 1watt in a TO-220 type package you should consider using a small
heat sink be safely operate the device at 40 degree Celsius. There will be
some loss of power in Transistor during switching transition which you can
neglect because switching frequency will be low enough.

A general purpose robust transistor available in RadioShack could be used in
your case is TIP3055 (TO-220) or 2N3055 (TO-3). It would be better to make a
Darlington with another low power general purpose transistor as the hfe of
3055 is a bit low.

MOSFETs are much better switch than transistor but they burn out more
easily.

Suraj

usenet@dannysauer.com (Danny Sauer) wrote in message news:<1b12c495.0408261200.5bed6bf9@posting.google.com>...

Ok, so I know a little about electronic devices. However, I don't
have the parts/spec books memorized like lots of people who do this
stuff all the time.

I'm making a device to make my tail lights flash in entertaining
patterns. It's overkill, but I'm using a PIC microcontroller (a
16f676) to handle the flashing patterns. I've got the device working
just fine with LEDs, but actual 1157 taillight bulbs pull way more
current, which I'm pretty sure will be too darned much for this little
micro to handle. My plan is to replace the LEDs with a transistor to
control each bulb individually. The bright side of an 1157 is usually
around 25-30 watts, so at 12 volts that gives me a worst case of about
2.5 amps. How about allowing for 3 amps at 14.4 volts - 43 watts.
What would be a good transistor to use for this? I can switch either
the positive or negative side, it doesn't really make any difference,
though switching the positive side would likely be a bit more
convenient (more wire to work with).

Can someone recommend a supplier and a part number or something where
I can get stuff in relatively small quantities? I only need about 8
per device, and I'm only building one or two devices for the time
being. If I could get something at the local Radio Shack (there are
no electronics suppliers nearby other than that place), that'd
probably be alright, too.

Thanks a lot!
--Danny

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Dave Platt" <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:10isqu8ti6sq7a7@corp.supernews.com...

I'm making a device to make my tail lights flash in entertaining
patterns. It's overkill, but I'm using a PIC microcontroller (a
16f676) to handle the flashing patterns. I've got the device working
just fine with LEDs, but actual 1157 taillight bulbs pull way more
current, which I'm pretty sure will be too darned much for this
little
micro to handle. My plan is to replace the LEDs with a transistor to
control each bulb individually. The bright side of an 1157 is
usually
around 25-30 watts, so at 12 volts that gives me a worst case of
about
2.5 amps. How about allowing for 3 amps at 14.4 volts - 43 watts.
What would be a good transistor to use for this? I can switch either
the positive or negative side, it doesn't really make any difference,
though switching the positive side would likely be a bit more
convenient (more wire to work with).

For a high-side switch, you'd want a PNP power transistor, or a PNP
Darlington. [Darlingtons are actually two transistors, connected
together, in a single case. You turn on the first, and the first
turns on the second. A Darlington pair has a much higher current gain
than a single power transistor, and is thus easier to drive.]

You want a part with at *least* a 50-volt limit for auto applications,
due to voltage spikes caused by a phenomenon called "load dump". The
TIP125 and TIP127 Darlingtons have 80-volt limits, and will handle a
maximum collector current of 5 amperes. The NTE262 is an acceptable
substitute for both of these parts.

Using a Darlington is wasteful because its saturation voltage is always
at least a volt. At 3 or 4 amps, that's 3 or 4 watts to dissipate and
you'll need a bigger heatsink.

Use two separate transistors, such as a MJ2955 PNP power transistor with
a current limiting resistor in series with the base, and use a 2N4401 to
drive it, with its emitter grounded. Here's an example.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page6.htm#eyes2.gif

You should be able to drive the base of one of these from a PIC's
LED-capable output pin, through a current-limiting resistor. Figuring
maybe 15 volts (to be generous) at the transistor, you'd want a
resistor of about 750 ohms between the PIC pin and the base. This
will draw 20 mA out of the base when you turn on the PIC's output
driver (set the pin value to 0 and set the tristate to "drive it,
please"), and should turn on the Darlington quite hard... enough that
its voltage drop will be very low, and it won't dissipate a
significant amount of power in the transformer. I'd guess you won't
even need a heatsink. To turn off the transistor and the light,
just disable the PIC's tristate driver for that pin.

Oh... make sure that you're using one of the PICs which doesn't
mind having its pin "pulled up" to a high voltage when it's
tristated off. Most of the newer ones will tolerate this, I
believe. If you're using one which will malfunction or fry
if the pin is pulled high, then you'll need to drive the
transistor indirectly. Use the PIC to drive the LED in an
optoisolator (ideally one with a 100% or greater current
transfer ratio), and connect the optoisolator's output
between ground and the current-limiting resistor.

www.mouser.com is one source, and I'm sure www.digikey.com also
carries them. Also check the various surplus-electronics outfits on
the Web - www.goldmine-elec.com has TIP127s. Any well-stocked
electronics outfit can probably sell you the NTE262 - the price will
be a good deal higher than for the TIP equivalent but if it's
available locally to you there won't be a shipping charge.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org
AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page:
http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[Danny Sauer]

"Michael A. Covington" <look@ai.uga.edu.for.address> wrote in message news:<412e5744$1@mustang.speedfactory.net>...

(2) The transistor shouldn't dissipate anywhere near 43 watts. That is, the
transistor wattage has nothing to do with the wattage of your taillights.

Doesn't it have to pass all of the current through, though? If use
something only rated to pass a couple of amps, won't it likely burn up
if the load wants to draw more current through?

(3) Have you considered using relays?

I'd like to be able to fade the lights out, and that'll either require
the ability to rapidly switch between on and off, or some kind of
variable resistance. I suppose I could control a potentiometer with a
stepper motor, or something awful like that, but that's not a
realistic option. Even if a relay was able to keep up with the
high-speed switching, the contacts wouldn't last long in that type of
use. So I'm pretty much left with a transistor for this situation.

Thanks much for the replys, all. I've got a few ideas to play with,
and at least an idea of what I'm looking for. It's much easier to
have the list limited down to a few hundred rather than having several
thousand possible options.

--Danny

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Danny Sauer" <usenet@dannysauer.com> wrote in message
news:1b12c495.0409080801.4bce6179@posting.google.com...

"Michael A. Covington" <look@ai.uga.edu.for.address> wrote in message
news:<412e5744$1@mustang.speedfactory.net>...
(2) The transistor shouldn't dissipate anywhere near 43 watts. That
is, the
transistor wattage has nothing to do with the wattage of your
taillights.

Doesn't it have to pass all of the current through, though? If use
something only rated to pass a couple of amps, won't it likely burn up
if the load wants to draw more current through?

(3) Have you considered using relays?

I'd like to be able to fade the lights out, and that'll either require
the ability to rapidly switch between on and off, or some kind of
variable resistance. I suppose I could control a potentiometer with a
stepper motor, or something awful like that, but that's not a
realistic option. Even if a relay was able to keep up with the
high-speed switching, the contacts wouldn't last long in that type of
use. So I'm pretty much left with a transistor for this situation.

Didn't you read my earlier followup?
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page6.htm#eyes2.gif

Thanks much for the replys, all. I've got a few ideas to play with,
and at least an idea of what I'm looking for. It's much easier to
have the list limited down to a few hundred rather than having several
thousand possible options.

--Danny

 

[Jeff Walther]

In article <1b12c495.0409080801.4bce6179@posting.google.com>,
usenet@dannysauer.com (Danny Sauer) wrote:

"Michael A. Covington" <look@ai.uga.edu.for.address> wrote in message
news:<412e5744$1@mustang.speedfactory.net>...

I'd like to be able to fade the lights out, and that'll either require
the ability to rapidly switch between on and off, or some kind of
variable resistance. I suppose I could control a potentiometer with a
stepper motor, or something awful like that, but that's not a
realistic option.

I haven't seen the earlier messages in this thread, so apologies if I'm
retreading old ground.

Have you considered using a digital potentiometer? Xicor makes a line of
digital pots that might work. I don't know what kind of apperage they
support, so you may have to run the output through some amplification, but
they are a more elegant way to convert a digital signal to a potentiometer
type output.

--
A friend will help you move. A real friend will help you move a body.

 

[Danny Sauer]

"Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote in message news:<10k34ef55okfcfc@corp.supernews.com>...

"Danny Sauer" <usenet@dannysauer.com> wrote in message
news:1b12c495.0409080801.4bce6179@posting.google.com...
Even if a relay was able to keep up with the
high-speed switching, the contacts wouldn't last long in that type of
use. So I'm pretty much left with a transistor for this situation.

Didn't you read my earlier followup?
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page6.htm#eyes2.gif

My ISP doesn't have a newsfeed, so I'm posting through Google. It
works, but sometimes (like this time) my replies are weeks late
because posts frequently don't show up for several days. So no, I
didn't read the earlier reply. That does implement pretty much
what I was figuring on, though... Thanks.