siegfreid and roy and electronics

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message
news:3F850035.55F0@armory.com...
John Fortier wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message
news:3F826388.1824@armory.com...
John Fortier wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message

This thread seems to have wandered quite a way from electronics,
but -
what
the hell!

We're not, probably, speaking about even thousands of years before
nature
bites us on the ass so hard our collective eyes pop out.
-----------------
I doubt that it's actually capable of that, we're the first
meta-species, one which is beyond evolution.


How's this for depressing? There is a type of Ebola virus found in
monkeys
which is infectious, that is, spread by coughs and sneezes, but
which
has a
mortality of only 10 to 15%,

There is a type of Ebola virus, found in another type of monkey,
which
has a
long incubation period and has a mortality of about 30%

Then there is human Ebola which has a mortality of 90%, but which is
not
infectious, but rather contagious, that is spread by contact or
direct
exchange of fluids.

Put those together in one virus and "boof! As by magic, they were
gone!"
-------------------------
Not that easy.


And what would the Earth do? Pretty well ignore the entire episode.

It may be later than we think.

John
---------------------
Humans have been 90% wiped out before, and came back stronger.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com
ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics
Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

It's not the 90% direct mortality rate that will finish us off, it's the
collapse of every system and technology in the world which will do it.
Does anyone imagine that anyone in New York City could survive such an
event, for example.

I cannot recall a historical episode where 90% of all humans were killed
off. Could you let me know to what event you are referring. Oh, and
could
you define meta-species as well, please.

Yes, there will be survivors, but cut any species down far enough and
you
have insufficient remaining numbers to ensure a breeding population.
The
survival of humans as a species would hang on a knife edge.

Steve, I think your post indicates a little too much hubris to make me
feel
secure. What we should be doing is not assuming that we're too clever
for
nature to bite back, but rather to assume that it will happen and try to
prepare for the eventuality.

It probably won't help. And it needn't be Ebola. That was just an
example.
A comet strike, like the one that wiped out the dinosaurs and so many
other
species would wipe us out just as effectively. We probably wouldn't
see it
coming, and by the time we knew what was happening, it would be far too
late.

This post is depressing even me, but to assume that because we can build
big
rockets and clever computers and have wiped out smallpox, we are forever
safe, just flies in the face of reason. The universe isn't friendly to
us,
we're all on this one little planet and anything which affects the whole
planet affects us all as well.
--------------------------
Sure, we have to do the right things, like not take poison, in its
many forms, but things can be forced in many ways without harm. Tell
me what magical reason we'd need big cats for if we killed all the
animals they would kill. I can't think of any good reason. There's
no "magic".


Ever heard of the Decan Trapps?

John
-------------------------
You mean the plain in India that is a flat hard desert? It was
screwed up by excessive intensive planting. It went desert.

They have been reviving it lately and even bringing the water level
back up again using Bill Mollison's Permaculture, which is ANOTHER
example of a kind of intelligent "force" that humans can employ!

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
The Deccann Traps are an area of volcanic flow lava, several miles thick
which cover about 30% of the Indian sub continent. There is an equivalent
area known as the Siberian Trapps. The Deccann trapps straddle the KT
boundary but their activity increased significantly after the impact.
Interestingly enough, at the time of the KT boundary formation, India, as a
separate continent, was almost exactly opposite the impact site in Yucatan.
(Plate tectonics). Shock waves would have spread out from the Yucatan impact
point and re-concentrated at a geologically unstable area on the other side
of the globe, causing massive volcanism.

The level of geological violence involved beggars the imagination. Imagine
hundreds of the worst volcanic eruptions we have seen over the past decades
all happening simultaneously, and you get some idea. This, in conjunction
with the effects of the Yucatan impact, turned our planet into hell
overnight.

The fact is that after the KY event and the Deccann eruption, the dinosaurs
were gone, as well as any other land animal that weighed more than a couple
of pounds. The dinosaurs were the most successful group of animals ever to
inhabit the earth, and they disappeared effectively overnight. An
equivalent extinction occurred in the oceans.

Compared to this kind of violence, our feeble attempts to modify the planet,
for good or bad are utterly insignificant. Raising the water table in one
area or stopping desertification of sub Saharan Africa are certainly worth
while endeavors, but they won't be much use inthe face of the results of a
comet impact. And if you think that comets don't hit planets, just look at
the Shoemaker-Levy impact on Jupiter.

There's nothing deliberately hostile to us in all this. But if we're in the
wrong place, planet Earth, at the wrong time ;comet impact, viral plague
outbreak, massive volcanism, global ice age, all of which have happened
before, we won't really stand much of a chance.

I'd still like a definition of "meta-species" and some information about
that event which killed off 90% of the human race, assuming that such an
event occurred.

This has got a long way from electronics, but it has been interesting. I
guess that is one reason these posts aren't particularly moderated.

John
 
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 13:14:57 GMT, "John Fortier"
<jfortier@rochester.rr.com> wrote:


This has got a long way from electronics, but it has been interesting. I
guess that is one reason these posts aren't particularly moderated.
---
This group is _totally_ unmoderated. :)

--
John Fields
 
"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:eek:3raovgeghp2t1luhbf6plfcovl6eecn8p@4ax.com...
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 13:14:57 GMT, "John Fortier"
jfortier@rochester.rr.com> wrote:


This has got a long way from electronics, but it has been interesting.
I
guess that is one reason these posts aren't particularly moderated.

---
This group is _totally_ unmoderated. :)

--
John Fields
Glad to hear it.
 
John Fortier wrote:
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message

This post is depressing even me, but to assume that because we can build
big
rockets and clever computers and have wiped out smallpox, we are forever
safe, just flies in the face of reason. The universe isn't friendly to
us,
we're all on this one little planet and anything which affects the whole
planet affects us all as well.
--------------------------
Sure, we have to do the right things, like not take poison, in its
many forms, but things can be forced in many ways without harm. Tell
me what magical reason we'd need big cats for if we killed all the
animals they would kill. I can't think of any good reason. There's
no "magic".


Ever heard of the Decan Trapps?

John
-------------------------
You mean the plain in India that is a flat hard desert? It was
screwed up by excessive intensive planting. It went desert.

They have been reviving it lately and even bringing the water level
back up again using Bill Mollison's Permaculture, which is ANOTHER
example of a kind of intelligent "force" that humans can employ!


The Deccann Traps are an area of volcanic flow lava, several miles thick
which cover about 30% of the Indian sub continent. There is an equivalent
area known as the Siberian Trapps. The Deccann trapps straddle the KT
boundary but their activity increased significantly after the impact.
Interestingly enough, at the time of the KT boundary formation, India, as a
separate continent, was almost exactly opposite the impact site in Yucatan.
(Plate tectonics). Shock waves would have spread out from the Yucatan impact
point and re-concentrated at a geologically unstable area on the other side
of the globe, causing massive volcanism.

The level of geological violence involved beggars the imagination. Imagine
hundreds of the worst volcanic eruptions we have seen over the past decades
all happening simultaneously, and you get some idea. This, in conjunction
with the effects of the Yucatan impact, turned our planet into hell
overnight.
-----------------
Sort of like a "contra-coup" brain-concussion.


The fact is that after the KY event and the Deccann eruption, the dinosaurs
were gone, as well as any other land animal that weighed more than a couple
of pounds. The dinosaurs were the most successful group of animals ever to
inhabit the earth, and they disappeared effectively overnight. An
equivalent extinction occurred in the oceans.

Compared to this kind of violence, our feeble attempts to modify the planet,
for good or bad are utterly insignificant. Raising the water table in one
area or stopping desertification of sub Saharan Africa are certainly worth
while endeavors, but they won't be much use inthe face of the results of a
comet impact. And if you think that comets don't hit planets, just look at
the Shoemaker-Levy impact on Jupiter.

There's nothing deliberately hostile to us in all this. But if we're in the
wrong place, planet Earth, at the wrong time ;comet impact, viral plague
outbreak, massive volcanism, global ice age, all of which have happened
before, we won't really stand much of a chance.
---------------------------------
So then that exigency is irrelevant anyway, and as soon as we're off
earth or have the space-craft to intercept all such, it is once again,
irrelevant. And that will be VERY soon in time as it is measured
historically, no more than a moment of time.


I'd still like a definition of "meta-species"
--------------------------------
We are beyond evolution and into meta-evolution, or memetic evolution.
We are conscious, which enables us to totally intentionally undermine
ANY process of normal genetic evolution that we decide to. Another
way of saying it is that we are no longer going to evolve, we are
going to modify our own genetics purposefully, or we may soon even
evolve out of this form of body and generate a new form of body, and
all within the next century or two.


and some information about
that event which killed off 90% of the human race, assuming that such an
event occurred.
------------------------------------
Our numbers were once so few that this may even have occurred several
times in early human prehistory, that we were down to an unspeakbly
low number as a new species, not necessarily at that time a distinct
species, but our offspring were so specifically different that they
outlived and outbred all previous forms even if we were breeding with
these others as a species at the time.

What happened was that the current mitochchondrial DNA that is passed
only in the mother's line indicate that we actually evolved directly
from one or only a very few closely related females of the same
maternal parentage at some point, so that either they spawned a
drastically different human, perhaps by as little as a change in only
one base-pair or codon, and one that suddenly had the requisite
complement to do what no previous erectus-like or transitional homo
could possibly do, to fully abstract as no previous form had.

This change was sufficiently profound, that for whatever reason, ONLY
that same maternal mitochrondrial DNA persists to this day in ALL the
humans now on this planet, and all other forms have gone!!! This is
what enabled us to prove the "out of Africa" hypothesis, and to even
trace when different people's left Africa, and show that todays blacks
are the most changed mitochondrial DNA since that time, and that the
last to exit Africa are the least changed.


This has got a long way from electronics, but it has been
interesting. I guess that is one reason these posts aren't > particularly moderated.

John
---------------------
Indeed. They aren't moderated at ALL! This is not a ".moderated"
hierarchy!

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
 

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