Shock Wave Damage?

[Jon]

I've always wanted to pick up stations in Pittsburgh
69 miles away, so I got an FM antenna and put it up.
However I needed a receiver with an external
antenna connection. I found an old Pioneer tuner at
a second hand shop, but when I got home I realized
it needed an amplifier. I took an old portable radio
apart and connected the Pioneer output into the
portable radio on a couple of connections around the
volume knob, and it seemed to amplify pretty good,
so now everything is up and running.

My system uses old electronics. There aren't any
microchips in anything. However, there are large
transistors, resistors and so on. My question is,
are the older components more resistant to an
electromagnetic shock wave from a nuclear blast,
than microchips? Does a shock wave permanently
damage chips, or just temporarily incapacitate them?
Does a shock wave damage the old large
transistors?

 

[CWatters]

"Jon" <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
newsLPdc.3040$zj3.1130@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...

My system uses old electronics. There aren't any
microchips in anything. However, there are large
transistors, resistors and so on. My question is,
are the older components more resistant to an
electromagnetic shock wave from a nuclear blast,
than microchips?

Well my guess is that in the event of a nuclear blast the loss of a radio
will be the least of your worries however....

My limited understanding is that an EMP generates fields large enough to
cause arcing in chain-link fence and similar metalic structures. At those
levels descrete transistors won't be significantly more robust than
microchips - everything will fry, possibly even the wire in the speaker,
battery etc.

I did hear of a story that the Russian used valves in the radios of their
fighter aircraft as an anti EMP measure - but I believe this to be untrue -
I believe they used them because they didn't have suitable transistors at
the time.

 

[Jerry G.]

All semiconductors will be damaged from any EMP (Electro Magnetic Pulse), if
it is strong enough. I would think that if you were in an area that had an
EMP strong enough to damage any type of electronic apparatus, you would not
have to worry about it for eternity!

Testing found that the tube type circuits are more robust for EMP exposure,
but if the EMP is strong enough, they will also be damaged. If it is intense
enough even the wiring, and a some metal parts will also melt, or burn up.

I am curious... What brought this type of question up???

--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg
===========


"Jon" <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
newsLPdc.3040$zj3.1130@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
I've always wanted to pick up stations in Pittsburgh
69 miles away, so I got an FM antenna and put it up.
However I needed a receiver with an external
antenna connection. I found an old Pioneer tuner at
a second hand shop, but when I got home I realized
it needed an amplifier. I took an old portable radio
apart and connected the Pioneer output into the
portable radio on a couple of connections around the
volume knob, and it seemed to amplify pretty good,
so now everything is up and running.

My system uses old electronics. There aren't any
microchips in anything. However, there are large
transistors, resistors and so on. My question is,
are the older components more resistant to an
electromagnetic shock wave from a nuclear blast,
than microchips? Does a shock wave permanently
damage chips, or just temporarily incapacitate them?
Does a shock wave damage the old large
transistors?

 

[Myron Samila]

"CWatters" <colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be> wrote in message
news:10Rdc.66364$V07.4577410@phobos.telenet-ops.be...

"Jon" <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
newsLPdc.3040$zj3.1130@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...

My system uses old electronics. There aren't any
microchips in anything. However, there are large
transistors, resistors and so on. My question is,
are the older components more resistant to an
electromagnetic shock wave from a nuclear blast,
than microchips?

Well my guess is that in the event of a nuclear blast the loss of a radio
will be the least of your worries however....

I'd have to agree.... . But how did the EMP generator work in the movie Matrix to stop
the sentinels and not take out the ship or any other nearby ships ........ LOL... hehe I
guess if you were still connected in the "Matrix", you couldn't use the EMP.

--
Myron Samila
Toronto, ON Canada
Samila Racing
http://204.101.251.229/myronx19

 

[CWatters]

"Jerry G." <jerryg50@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c58pcm$pcj$1@news.eusc.inter.net...

All semiconductors will be damaged from any EMP (Electro Magnetic Pulse),
if
it is strong enough.

Not to mention people who have gold teeth or any other metal in their body?

 

[Dr. Anton T. Squeegee]

In article <oLPdc.3040$zj3.1130@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
jon8338@peoplepc.com says...

<snippety>

My system uses old electronics. There aren't any
microchips in anything. However, there are large
transistors, resistors and so on. My question is,
are the older components more resistant to an
electromagnetic shock wave from a nuclear blast,
than microchips? Does a shock wave permanently

<snippety-two>

If a nuclear blast goes off (God forbid) close enough to damage
electronics, you're going to have a lot more to worry about than said
electronics...


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"

 

[WEBPA]

In article <oLPdc.3040$zj3.1130@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
jon8338@peoplepc.com says...

<snippety

My system uses old electronics. There aren't any
microchips in anything. However, there are large
transistors, resistors and so on. My question is,
are the older components more resistant to an
electromagnetic shock wave from a nuclear blast,
than microchips? Does a shock wave permanently

<snippety-two

If a nuclear blast goes off (God forbid) close enough to damage
electronics, you're going to have a lot more to worry about than said
electronics...

The distinction is not between "old" and "new" electronics, nor is it between
discrete transistors and integrated circuits and/or microprocessors. It is
between solid state and non-solid state electronics (vacuum tubes). The latter
is vastly more resistance to voltage surges caused by nuclear weapon-induced
Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) (there is no "shock wave" involved). Just as it is
vastly more resistant to EMP caused by (nearby) lightning strikes...EMP is EMP.

Solid state electronics tend to be susceptible to destruction by over-voltages
that a vacuum tube (valve) circuit would not even notice. Furthermore, the
small physical sizes made possible by solid state active electronic components
make them even more vulnerable to local arcing.

Nuclear weapon-induced EMP has been demonstrated to cause damaging voltage
surges at ranges to the thousands of miles: Well beyond all other nuclear
weapon effects.


webpa

 

[Mark Fergerson]

WEBPA wrote:

In article <oLPdc.3040$zj3.1130@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
jon8338@peoplepc.com says...

<snippety

My system uses old electronics. There aren't any
microchips in anything. However, there are large
transistors, resistors and so on. My question is,
are the older components more resistant to an
electromagnetic shock wave from a nuclear blast,
than microchips? Does a shock wave permanently

<snippety-two

If a nuclear blast goes off (God forbid) close enough to damage
electronics, you're going to have a lot more to worry about than said
electronics...

The distinction is not between "old" and "new" electronics, nor is it between
discrete transistors and integrated circuits and/or microprocessors. It is
between solid state and non-solid state electronics (vacuum tubes). The latter
is vastly more resistance to voltage surges caused by nuclear weapon-induced
Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) (there is no "shock wave" involved). Just as it is
vastly more resistant to EMP caused by (nearby) lightning strikes...EMP is EMP.

Finally, something resembling a real answer. May I add a
bit of clarification?

"EMP" can be interpreted as a short burst of Really
High-Powered radio-frequency (up into the low gigahertz at
least) travelling past the equipment in question, "Really
High" being high enough to induce lots of current at high
voltage in conductors like the wiring in any circuit,
including power lines. "Lots" and "high" being enough to
overcome the usual protection measures built into consumer
(and ordinary military) gear.

The dumbed-down (Congress-friendly) version:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1997_h/h970716u.htm

Compare lightning:

http://www.blackmagic.com/ses/bruceg/EMC/EMP-Light.html

Some other relevant stuff:

http://www.tfd.chalmers.se/~valeri/EMP.html

Solid state electronics tend to be susceptible to destruction by over-voltages
that a vacuum tube (valve) circuit would not even notice. Furthermore, the
small physical sizes made possible by solid state active electronic components
make them even more vulnerable to local arcing.

Well, actually, the tubes would notice the pulse because
they'd likely arc over internally just as the semiconductors
would due to the high voltages induced on their terminals
from the EMP. The semiconductors (from ancient Ge
transistors to modern high-density chips), however, will
experience catastrophic overheating from the EMP-induced
current and/or voltage puncture, while tubes are more likely
to be able to dissipate the heat and go on functioning just
fine afterward. Still, some of their associated circuitry
may be permanently adversely affected (like punctured caps
and melted inductors frinst).

Nuclear weapon-induced EMP has been demonstrated to cause damaging voltage
surges at ranges to the thousands of miles: Well beyond all other nuclear
weapon effects.

Some of that is due to powerline conduction; most of the
EMP falls below lethal-to-circuitry levels pretty quickly;
inverse-square, remember?

Mark L. Fergerson

 

[R. Steve Walz]

Mark Fergerson wrote:

WEBPA wrote:

The distinction is not between "old" and "new" electronics, nor is it between
discrete transistors and integrated circuits and/or microprocessors. It is
between solid state and non-solid state electronics (vacuum tubes). The latter
is vastly more resistance to voltage surges caused by nuclear weapon-induced
Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) (there is no "shock wave" involved). Just as it is
vastly more resistant to EMP caused by (nearby) lightning strikes...EMP is EMP.

Finally, something resembling a real answer. May I add a
bit of clarification?

"EMP" can be interpreted as a short burst of Really
High-Powered radio-frequency (up into the low gigahertz at
least) travelling past the equipment in question, "Really
High" being high enough to induce lots of current at high
voltage in conductors like the wiring in any circuit,
including power lines. "Lots" and "high" being enough to
overcome the usual protection measures built into consumer
(and ordinary military) gear.

The dumbed-down (Congress-friendly) version:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1997_h/h970716u.htm

Compare lightning:

http://www.blackmagic.com/ses/bruceg/EMC/EMP-Light.html

Some other relevant stuff:

http://www.tfd.chalmers.se/~valeri/EMP.html

Solid state electronics tend to be susceptible to destruction by over-voltages
that a vacuum tube (valve) circuit would not even notice. Furthermore, the
small physical sizes made possible by solid state active electronic components
make them even more vulnerable to local arcing.

Well, actually, the tubes would notice the pulse because
they'd likely arc over internally just as the semiconductors
would due to the high voltages induced on their terminals
from the EMP. The semiconductors (from ancient Ge
transistors to modern high-density chips), however, will
experience catastrophic overheating from the EMP-induced
current and/or voltage puncture, while tubes are more likely
to be able to dissipate the heat and go on functioning just
fine afterward. Still, some of their associated circuitry
may be permanently adversely affected (like punctured caps
and melted inductors frinst).

Nuclear weapon-induced EMP has been demonstrated to cause damaging voltage
surges at ranges to the thousands of miles: Well beyond all other nuclear
weapon effects.

Some of that is due to powerline conduction; most of the
EMP falls below lethal-to-circuitry levels pretty quickly;
inverse-square, remember?

Mark L. Fergerson
-------------------

Only vast antennae like the grid or phone system are really
vulnerable, the small electronic device is not in much danger
if not from blast, as only near the blast does the EMP get
anywhere near high enough for its scale of induction. Since
the advent of fiber telecomm, it is believed it would be
harder than ever before to disrupt telecomm with EMP, it
would be easier to ground-nuke what you want to stop.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[WEBPA]

Nuclear weapon-induced EMP has been demonstrated to cause damaging voltage
surges at ranges to the thousands of miles: Well beyond all other nuclear
weapon effects.

Some of that is due to powerline conduction; most of the
EMP falls below lethal-to-circuitry levels pretty quickly;
inverse-square, remember?

Mark L. Fergerson

The first US experience, a high altitude detonation in the South Pacific, seems
to have produced large-scale power grid failure in Hawaii. This is not a sure
thing, since we didn't expect it and did not instrument for it. The USSR and
France probably have more data than we do, since they did quite of number of
high-altitude bursts that seemed to be designed specifically for EMP data
collection (and maybe, EMP-enhancement).

Critical point is that the Hawaii incident involved a power grid several
thousand miles from the detonation. It was not conducted there, but radiated.
Inverse square law works of course, but the phenomena at the source has some
very large numbers to start with.
webpa

 

[Sporkman]

This was also my understanding -- that a single high altitude burst over
Ohio of a weapon of the largest size that the Soviets had been known to
build would take out most unprotected electronics in the eastern half of
the country, and a large portion of the western half. I don't know that
for sure, but only remember this from a discussion between weapons
engineers that I overheard in around 1986 or 1987 (I was working in
electronics countermeasures at the time, but as an ME, not an EE). It
was also my understanding (from that same discussion), that house wiring
a thousand miles away or more would induct many thousands of volts per
linear meter, causing many house fires and blowing most connected
devices which are not specially protected. Also automobile wiring would
burn out components over most of the area mentioned. Discreet passive
components not connected to circuitry would likely survive in most area,
but most CMOS would be toast.

Mark 'Sporky' Stapleton
Watermark Design, LLC
http://www.h2omarkdesign.com

WEBPA wrote:

The first US experience, a high altitude detonation in the South Pacific, seems
to have produced large-scale power grid failure in Hawaii. This is not a sure
thing, since we didn't expect it and did not instrument for it. The USSR and
France probably have more data than we do, since they did quite of number of
high-altitude bursts that seemed to be designed specifically for EMP data
collection (and maybe, EMP-enhancement).

Critical point is that the Hawaii incident involved a power grid several
thousand miles from the detonation. It was not conducted there, but radiated.
Inverse square law works of course, but the phenomena at the source has some
very large numbers to start with.
webpa

 

[Mark Fergerson]

WEBPA wrote:

Nuclear weapon-induced EMP has been demonstrated to cause damaging voltage
surges at ranges to the thousands of miles: Well beyond all other nuclear
weapon effects.

Some of that is due to powerline conduction; most of the
EMP falls below lethal-to-circuitry levels pretty quickly;
inverse-square, remember?

The first US experience, a high altitude detonation in the South Pacific, seems
to have produced large-scale power grid failure in Hawaii. This is not a sure
thing, since we didn't expect it and did not instrument for it. The USSR and
France probably have more data than we do, since they did quite of number of
high-altitude bursts that seemed to be designed specifically for EMP data
collection (and maybe, EMP-enhancement).

Yup. A power grid is effectively a large aperture antenna
whereas individual devices can't intercept much energy. IIRC
from the Hawaii incident once power was restored most TVs,
radios, etc. that had been connected to the grid worked fine
afterward.

Critical point is that the Hawaii incident involved a power grid several
thousand miles from the detonation. It was not conducted there, but radiated.
Inverse square law works of course, but the phenomena at the source has some
very large numbers to start with.

Again, how "focused" the energy is has much to do with
it. The "EMP bomb" site I linked to shows what amounts to a
radiator with lots of gain in one direction. If the source
is omni I'd still expect much less permanent damage.

Mark L. Fergerson