Sharing fixed problem with our telco lines

[bud--]

On 10/31/2014 1:16 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

bud-- wrote:

What is the signal voltage on cable?


I don't know about all CATV systems, but the one I did some design
work on was based on +10 dBmv at the street to all for up to four sets
per drop. +10 dBmv = 3.1623 mV.

Interesting.
I would think there would always be a lot more 60Hz noise than that.
High pass filter?

 

"> >"The Central office grounds the positive side of their battery
bank, "

Which means jack shit a couple of miles away.



Sigh. Why don't you sober up, and grow up? "

Me grow up ? I tell you that grounding something far away doesn't mean much, and you take that as a sign of immaturity or inebriation ?

Fuck you. Try responding. you got nothing here so you resort to dumb shit like a little kid. "Grow up and sober up". The fuck do you know about me ?

Who is calling whom names ?

Callingnames, and accusing of something you might think bad as if you are some sort of judge. I do not care if I am so fucking drunk I cannot walk, and that hasn't happened in decades, or so immature I still play with blocks. You got me beat in every fucking thing you ever called me.

YOU GROW UP.

 

[junebug1701]

On Friday, October 31, 2014 1:27:39 PM UTC-5, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

WTF is wrong with you ? I am certainly not the fool here. That joke about the dog barking is a JOKE.

Lemme splain it to you, telco wires are not grounded, they are a pair. IF, and this is a pretty good sized IF, one of them became grounded at all there would be a shitload of noise on the line, probably to the point of making it unusable.

IT IS FICTION. And thanx for trying unsuccessfully to bust my balls. It makes me look good.

Are you calling me a liar? I WAS THERE, I SAW IT. This was 1979, rural Louisiana, South Central Bell. The customer's service was a PARTY LINE, with 2 parties sharing the same pair. When party 1 received a call, the ringing voltage was sent down the tip side of the line. The ringer in the phone was wired from the tip side to ground. When party 2 received a call, the ringing voltage was sent down the ring side of the line. His phone was wired as party 2, with the ringer connected to the ring side and ground. When the dog owner got a call, the ringing voltage went from his side of the line to ground, which was connected to a water pipe the dog was chained to. The soil was very dry, so the ground was not very good, probably a high resistance. The dog provided a better ground. And no, this is not a joke.

 

> Are you calling me a liar? I WAS THERE, I SAW IT.

Wow.

I never intended to call you a liar at all, I meant to call you a joker. Really, I thought it was a joke or a not-quite-urban legend.

The story has certainly gotten around. What is even more surprising is that it was 1979 ! Was the thing installed in like the 1940s and never upgraded or anything ?

I guess I stand corrected. I never snopesed it or anything, just assumed it was a joke. Since I had read it on the internet I wasn't even skeptical, really, I simply believed it was a joke all these years.

I hope you don't mind if I snopes it just to make sure you're not pulling my leg... Not lying, but like sending the newbie in the shop to go get a...I forget what it was but it doesn't exist and the techs would always claim someone else has it... You know, a joke.

What's next, aliens tunnelling their way out of area 51 ?

 

I guess I owe you an admission of wrong.

Not any apology, because that is a story I read on the internet and the skepticism kept me from believing it. There is no shortage of bullshit on the net.

Calling osmeone a foll for not automaticall believeing something like that is not appropriate. I don't mean ettiquette, I mean logic. After all, look how many Darwin awards have been debunked.

 

I did have a look :

"URBAN MYTHS 126: PAVLOV'S DOG AND BONE

A FRIEND of a friend wrote to her telephone company to register a
vehement and most unusual complaint. The elderly widow was forever
being scolded by her relatives for not answering her phone. She
claimed they never rang. When the telephone did ring, it was
invariably preceded by three loud barks, in intervals, from her dog in
the yard. Yet when she got to the receiver there would be no one on
the line.


'How does my Spot know when the phone's going to ring,' fumed the
irate customer, 'when you don't even feed my calls through?' An
investigator duly arrived. He began testing the woman's hearing by
muttering insults under his breath. Each time, she shouted, 'I heard
that,' so the fault clearly didn't lie with her. The handset was
functioning normally as well. Eventually he hit on the problem. He
discovered that the dog in the yard had been fastened to a post that
also carried the telephone cable. The animal's chain had worn through
the cable and chafed at the core, which carried a small electrical
current to operate the system.

Each time someone rang up it caused a fur-raising, tingling
sensation in the dog's neck, causing it to jump up and bark.

On the third pulse, the cumulative stimulation reached the mutt's
bladder. The resultant puddle connecting with the wire was somehow
enough to complete a circuit, and the phone would then ring for hours
on end of its own volition.

The engineer made good the repair. 'There,' he said, patting the
dog. 'No charge.'"

What would you think ?

 

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=001085;p=1

Is the source BTW.

 

[josephkk]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 12:55:14 -0600, bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:

On 10/30/2014 11:46 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

junebug1701 wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

This reminds me of a strange service call I had when I worked as a Bell System repair technician. It was a rural area and the customer complained that none of her phones would ring, but that she knew somebody was calling whenever her dog howled. Sounded crazy to me, but it turns out that she was on a party line which requires a good earth ground on the third (yellow) wire for the ringers. Well, the unlucky dog was chained to a poorly grounded water pipe which also held the ground clamp and wire for the telephone protector. Whenever she got a call the poor dog got a 90VAC jolt! That's one of the reasons the telcos quit grounding to water pipes in favor of the electrical power neutral.

(US practice.)

You mean the service "ground", not the neutral.

Phone techs had better not be connecting anything inside the service panel.

A convenient point of connection is the wire to the earthing electrodes,
but it is not the only place the connection can be made.

Recent services have an "intersystem bonding termination" where phone
and coax entry ground connections must be made.


The reason that they switched was that the NEC required them to. Some
fools couldn't tell the difference between a water and a gas pipe.


The NEC did not require them to.

Water pipes (10 or more ft of metal in contact with the earth) must
still be used as one of the power system earthing electrodes.

That metal water pipe can still be used as the ground for phone entry
protectors (if there is no intersystem bonding termination). In the past
the connection could be anywhere. Now it must be within the first 5 ft
inside the building. That is the same place the connection must now be
made for the water pipe as an earthing electrode.

Gas pipes are grounded at locations like furnaces.

Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) is often used for gas piping
inside a building because it is flexible. There have been fires and
explosions, and I think all manufacturers now require the stuff to be
connected to the earthing system near the building entry. (There have
been fires where the stuff was grounded to manufacturer's specs. An
electrical inspector recommended electricians not make the ground
connection, then they will not be involved in the lawsuit. I would not
use CSST.)

 

[josephkk]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 12:55:14 -0600, bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:

On 10/30/2014 11:46 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

junebug1701 wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

This reminds me of a strange service call I had when I worked as a Bell System repair technician. It was a rural area and the customer complained that none of her phones would ring, but that she knew somebody was calling whenever her dog howled. Sounded crazy to me, but it turns out that she was on a party line which requires a good earth ground on the third (yellow) wire for the ringers. Well, the unlucky dog was chained to a poorly grounded water pipe which also held the ground clamp and wire for the telephone protector. Whenever she got a call the poor dog got a 90VAC jolt! That's one of the reasons the telcos quit grounding to water pipes in favor of the electrical power neutral.

(US practice.)

You mean the service "ground", not the neutral.

Phone techs had better not be connecting anything inside the service panel.

A convenient point of connection is the wire to the earthing electrodes,
but it is not the only place the connection can be made.

Recent services have an "intersystem bonding termination" where phone
and coax entry ground connections must be made.


The reason that they switched was that the NEC required them to. Some
fools couldn't tell the difference between a water and a gas pipe.


The NEC did not require them to.

Water pipes (10 or more ft of metal in contact with the earth) must
still be used as one of the power system earthing electrodes.

I don't know what version of NFPA 70 (NEC) you are talking about; but
recent editions of the NEC requires a grounding electrode (rod) with at
least 10 feet in direct earth contact; plus bonding to water pipe and gas
pipe when metallic. Also bonding to the structural steel if there is
significant steel above ground. Enforcing article 250 et seq. has been
part of my job for the past 8 years.

That metal water pipe can still be used as the ground for phone entry
protectors (if there is no intersystem bonding termination). In the past
the connection could be anywhere. Now it must be within the first 5 ft
inside the building. That is the same place the connection must now be
made for the water pipe as an earthing electrode.

Gas pipes are grounded at locations like furnaces.

Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) is often used for gas piping
inside a building because it is flexible. There have been fires and
explosions, and I think all manufacturers now require the stuff to be
connected to the earthing system near the building entry. (There have
been fires where the stuff was grounded to manufacturer's specs. An
electrical inspector recommended electricians not make the ground
connection, then they will not be involved in the lawsuit. I would not
use CSST.)

 

[bud--]

On 11/3/2014 10:19 PM, josephkk wrote:

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 12:55:14 -0600, bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:

On 10/30/2014 11:46 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

junebug1701 wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

This reminds me of a strange service call I had when I worked as a Bell System repair technician. It was a rural area and the customer complained that none of her phones would ring, but that she knew somebody was calling whenever her dog howled. Sounded crazy to me, but it turns out that she was on a party line which requires a good earth ground on the third (yellow) wire for the ringers. Well, the unlucky dog was chained to a poorly grounded water pipe which also held the ground clamp and wire for the telephone protector. Whenever she got a call the poor dog got a 90VAC jolt! That's one of the reasons the telcos quit grounding to water pipes in favor of the electrical power neutral.

(US practice.)

You mean the service "ground", not the neutral.

Phone techs had better not be connecting anything inside the service panel.

A convenient point of connection is the wire to the earthing electrodes,
but it is not the only place the connection can be made.

Recent services have an "intersystem bonding termination" where phone
and coax entry ground connections must be made.


The reason that they switched was that the NEC required them to. Some
fools couldn't tell the difference between a water and a gas pipe.


The NEC did not require them to.

Water pipes (10 or more ft of metal in contact with the earth) must
still be used as one of the power system earthing electrodes.

I don't know what version of NFPA 70 (NEC) you are talking about; but
recent editions of the NEC requires a grounding electrode (rod) with at
least 10 feet in direct earth contact; plus bonding to water pipe and gas
pipe when metallic. Also bonding to the structural steel if there is
significant steel above ground. Enforcing article 250 et seq. has been
part of my job for the past 8 years.

There may be requirements other than the NEC where you are working.

The NEC requirements are:

- Power earthing may have one or many electrodes that are connected
together as an earthing system (250.50).

- A metal water service pipe MUST be used as one of the earthing
electrodes. It has been so since time began. Exact requirements have
changed over time as more water services use plastic pipe. The
requirement for many years is that a metal water service pipe in contact
with the earth for 10 ft MUST be used as an earthing electrode. (250.50,
250.52)

- If the water service pipe is NOT metal-10ft, then the interior metal
water pipe must be "bonded" to the power ground system (250.104-A). The
connection as an earthing electrode (above) is more stringent than
"bonding".

- Since a metal water service may be replaced by plastic, a
"supplemental" electrode has been required for many years. Many kinds of
electrode can be used (250.53-D). Often it has been a ground rod because
they are easy to install.

- Gas piping must be "bonded" to the building ground system. The size of
the bonding wire is determined by the current rating of the circuit that
is likely to energize the pipe. In a house this is likely the feed
circuit for a furnace, or similar device. "The equipment grounding
conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be
permitted to serve as the bonding means." (250.104-B)

- Gas service pipe may not be used as an earthing electrode.

- Structural steel may be required to be used as an earthing electrode
(250.50, 250.52). Else it is required to be "bonded" (250.104-C).
Connection as an earthing electrode is more stringent than "bonding".

- For new construction, if there is a concrete foundation or footing, a
"concrete encased electrode" is required (250.50, 250.52) These are
commonly called a "Ufer" ground. They are a good electrode (far better
than a ground rod) and are used as the "supplementary" electrode for a
water service pipe where both are present.

- Ground rods are required to be used as an earthing electrode "where
present". They won't be present unless someone installs one. Installing
one is not required. (250.50)
Rods are 8 ft min, and the types used are 5/8" diameter. They must have
a resistance to earth of 25 ohms or less, or else 2 can be used and
there is no requirement (250.53-A-2).

Ground rods are among the worst earthing electrodes. If you connect a
120V circuit to a code compliant 25 ohm rod will it blow a 15A fuse?

If the only earthing electrode is a ground rod (which is compliant is
some places), and the rod has a near miraculous resistance to earth of
10 ohms, and there is a surge to earth of 3,000A, the potential of the
building "ground" is 30,000V above 'absolute' earth potential. In
general, 70% of the voltage drop away from the rod is in the first 3 ft.
Over 3 ft from the rod is at least 21,000V from the building "ground"
system. If you have a rooftop TV antenna that is earthed only to a
separate rod the coax will be over 21,000V from the power "ground". You
may also get that on a metal gas service pipe, which is why very
thin-walled CSST can be a problem.


What I wrote is consistent with NEC requirements.
Installing earthing systems has been part of my job for the past
....um... lots of years.

That metal water pipe can still be used as the ground for phone entry
protectors (if there is no intersystem bonding termination). In the past
the connection could be anywhere. Now it must be within the first 5 ft
inside the building. That is the same place the connection must now be
made for the water pipe as an earthing electrode.

Gas pipes are grounded at locations like furnaces.

Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) is often used for gas piping
inside a building because it is flexible. There have been fires and
explosions, and I think all manufacturers now require the stuff to be
connected to the earthing system near the building entry. (There have
been fires where the stuff was grounded to manufacturer's specs. An
electrical inspector recommended electricians not make the ground
connection, then they will not be involved in the lawsuit. I would not
use CSST.)