Ripple Current and ESR

[Ian Field]

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1ca3c25b-0cbb-40c7-bb8a-2ac4c1afab51@googlegroups.com...

Ian Field wrote:

----------------------------



The ripple current flows through the apparent series resistance and
produces
heat. heat accelerates the processes that cause ESR to increase.


** Fraid it does the opposite.

ESR is almost entirely due to the conductivity of the electrolyte and
THAT
improves as it get hotter. At max rated temp ( ie 85C or 105C ) the
ESR
falls by a factor of 4 or 5 compared to room temp.


ESR improves temporarily with temperature rise -


** Bullshit about the "temporarily" part.

It does so for the whole life of the electro cap.

You're seriously fucked in the head.

My first attempt at a DIY ESR meter couldn't do in circuit testing _ the
capacitors had to be unsoldered, that picked up some heat and gave a false
low reading - I had to watch and wait as the capacitor cooled and the ESR
rose to its true value.

You need your meds dude!!!

 

[Ian Field]

<jurb6006@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:580b2850-9106-424e-ae79-cccadb766442@googlegroups.com...

"> The ripple current flows through the apparent series resistance and
produces
heat. heat accelerates the processes that cause ESR to increase.


** Fraid it does the opposite."

That depends on the exact parameter you are attacking.

It is true that a lytic will have higher ESR at lower temperatures, but
when exposed over time to higher temperatures, especially cycles, their
average ESR will go up. While this is still dependant on temperature the
basic factor of it is worse, higher ESR.

He's off his trolley again - its best to leave him be when he gets like
this.

 

[Ian Field]

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:58bada6a-c203-4297-83e4-b7eff91a16df@googlegroups.com...

Ian Field wrote:

-------------------------


What for? Flattening off spikes and transients?

Only partly - MLCC capacitors are among the lowest ESR, but most non
electrolytic are not too bad. They present a lower impedance to fast
transients and take some of the heat off the electrolytic.


** Audiophool bollocks.

Yeah I forgot - you're one of the shonky dealers flogging them overpriced
crap.

 

[Ian Field]

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:967b1d73-52be-47e2-b203-c2ddb9691d7a@googlegroups.com...

Chris wrote:

--------------------

Ian Field wrote:


ESR is an apparent series resistance inside the capacitor. Ripple
current is the capacitor charging and discharging from the rectifier
pulses of current and the load current in between the rectifier
current.

The ripple current flows through the apparent series resistance and
produces heat. heat accelerates the processes that cause ESR to
increase.

Thanks, Ian. I think I've got it now. Great explanation.



** Ian is a bullshitting fool and his explanations are full of errors.

And you're unhinged - take your pick......................

 

[Phil Allison]

Ian Field wrote:

-----------------------

ESR improves temporarily with temperature rise -


** Bullshit about the "temporarily" part.

It does so for the whole life of the electro cap.

You're seriously fucked in the head.

** You are one seriously fact averse psychopath.

My first attempt at a DIY ESR meter couldn't do in circuit testing _ the
capacitors had to be unsoldered, that picked up some heat and gave a false
low reading - I had to watch and wait as the capacitor cooled and the ESR
rose to its true value.

** Contradicts nothing that I posted.

You are one loony fucker.

 

[Phil Allison]

Ian Field wrote:

-----------------

What for? Flattening off spikes and transients?

Only partly - MLCC capacitors are among the lowest ESR, but most non
electrolytic are not too bad. They present a lower impedance to fast
transients and take some of the heat off the electrolytic.


** Audiophool bollocks.

Yeah I forgot - you're one of the shonky dealers flogging them overpriced
crap.

** What utter lunacy.

I do not and never have dealt in any products.

You are totally nuts.


..... Phil

 

[Chris]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 20:07:25 +0100, Ian Field wrote:

Only partly - MLCC capacitors are among the lowest ESR, but most non
electrolytic are not too bad. They present a lower impedance to fast
transients and take some of the heat off the electrolytic.

Its quite possible that very expensive low ESR electrolytics are being
offered to audiophools - but I wouldn't take their word for it without
reading the data sheet.

Your explanations are very clear I must say. Now, given that v. large
value electros with v. low ESR are expensive, would there be any saving
from buying lots of smaller values and placing them all in parallel
(space permitting) to equal the value of the one large one? And would
there be any performance hit to take from doing things this way?
Thanks again.

 

[Phil Allison]

Chris the Troll wrote:

----------------------

Ian Nutcase Field wrote:

Only partly - MLCC capacitors are among the lowest ESR, but most non
electrolytic are not too bad. They present a lower impedance to fast
transients and take some of the heat off the electrolytic.

Its quite possible that very expensive low ESR electrolytics are being
offered to audiophools - but I wouldn't take their word for it without
reading the data sheet.


Your explanations are very clear I must say.

** Bout as clear as mud - you trolling retard.

Now, given that v. large
value electros with v. low ESR are expensive, would there be any saving
from buying lots of smaller values and placing them all in parallel
(space permitting) to equal the value of the one large one? And would
there be any performance hit to take from doing things this way?

** Doing this has been a common practice for decades when low levels of output noise are required for a SMPS. The total capacitance value is not as important to this task as the final ESR of the combined parts.

Of course, using a DC choke between two sets of electros works even better.


..... Phil




..... Phil

 

[Ian Field]

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:07915363-9e1b-4683-b7b4-38db39c7a8e9@googlegroups.com...

Ian Field wrote:

-----------------------


ESR improves temporarily with temperature rise -


** Bullshit about the "temporarily" part.

It does so for the whole life of the electro cap.

You're seriously fucked in the head.



** You are one seriously fact averse psychopath.



My first attempt at a DIY ESR meter couldn't do in circuit testing _ the
capacitors had to be unsoldered, that picked up some heat and gave a
false
low reading - I had to watch and wait as the capacitor cooled and the ESR
rose to its true value.


** Contradicts nothing that I posted.

You have magic electrolytics that are permanently repaired from high ESR by
heating - my real ones recover temporarily while heated and deteriorate
again when they cool.

SMPSUs in set top boxes etc can be quite entertaining - high ESR capacitors
may not be obvious unless you unplug it long enough for them to cool, then
it goes bang when you plug it back in.

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <R9P2B.60619$oU1.1686@fx14.am4>, gangprobing.alien1
@virginmedia.com says...

You have magic electrolytics that are permanently repaired from high ESR by
heating - my real ones recover temporarily while heated and deteriorate
again when they cool.

SMPSUs in set top boxes etc can be quite entertaining - high ESR capacitors
may not be obvious unless you unplug it long enough for them to cool, then
it goes bang when you plug it back in.

All this reminds me of a computer I had. It would sometimes start up
and sometimes not. Found that if I held a lightbulb near the board nad
heated it up, it would start up and keep on running. Finally it got so
it would not start at all.
That was one from the years the bad capacitors were used in many
motherboards.

 

[Ian Field]

"Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28146@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.33b59b97cd4d39ca989932@news.east.earthlink.net...

In article <R9P2B.60619$oU1.1686@fx14.am4>, gangprobing.alien1
@virginmedia.com says...



You have magic electrolytics that are permanently repaired from high ESR
by
heating - my real ones recover temporarily while heated and deteriorate
again when they cool.

SMPSUs in set top boxes etc can be quite entertaining - high ESR
capacitors
may not be obvious unless you unplug it long enough for them to cool,
then
it goes bang when you plug it back in.

All this reminds me of a computer I had. It would sometimes start up
and sometimes not. Found that if I held a lightbulb near the board nad
heated it up, it would start up and keep on running. Finally it got so
it would not start at all.
That was one from the years the bad capacitors were used in many
motherboards.

SMPSUs have various electrolytics doing various different jobs - at least
one electro stores the sampled feedback voltage for the voltage regulator.

If the regulator thinks the voltage is low; it turns the wick up - sometimes
in a spectacular way.

Output filter caps can allow ripple that interferes with normal voltage
sampling.

With things like set top boxes, some engineers fit a capacitor replacement
kit to slash the chances of a call back.

Every once in a while, a failing electro causes a pretty expensive mess.

 

[Ian Field]

"Chris" <cbx@noreply.com> wrote in message
newsierqm$c9a$1@dont-email.me...

On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 20:07:25 +0100, Ian Field wrote:

Only partly - MLCC capacitors are among the lowest ESR, but most non
electrolytic are not too bad. They present a lower impedance to fast
transients and take some of the heat off the electrolytic.

Its quite possible that very expensive low ESR electrolytics are being
offered to audiophools - but I wouldn't take their word for it without
reading the data sheet.

Your explanations are very clear I must say. Now, given that v. large
value electros with v. low ESR are expensive, would there be any saving
from buying lots of smaller values and placing them all in parallel

Some SMPSU manufacturers do exactly that - you often find a cluster of
electros all in parallel.

It probably isn't cheaper, but you get more surface area to dissipate heat
and a lot of people claim very low ESR is possible.

 

[Chris]

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 13:58:24 +0100, Ian Field wrote:

SMPSUs in set top boxes etc can be quite entertaining - high ESR
capacitors may not be obvious unless you unplug it long enough for them
to cool, then it goes bang when you plug it back in.

Is that why so many electrical/electronic items go *bang* when you
haven't used them for years? - dried-out electrolytics?

 

[Phil Allison]

Ian Field the Moron wrote:

-----------------------------

ESR improves temporarily with temperature rise -


** Bullshit about the "temporarily" part.

It does so for the whole life of the electro cap.

You're seriously fucked in the head.



** You are one seriously fact averse psychopath.



My first attempt at a DIY ESR meter couldn't do in circuit testing _ the
capacitors had to be unsoldered, that picked up some heat and gave a
false
low reading - I had to watch and wait as the capacitor cooled and the ESR
rose to its true value.


** Contradicts nothing that I posted.


You have magic electrolytics that are permanently repaired from high ESR by
heating - my real ones recover temporarily while heated and deteriorate
again when they cool.

** Course not.

You completely misread my post - fuckwit.

What you posted was plain wrong, the word "temporarily" should be deleted - cos the effect of a *temp rise* on ESR is not temporary.



...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

Chris wrote:

---------------

SMPSUs in set top boxes etc can be quite entertaining - high ESR
capacitors may not be obvious unless you unplug it long enough for them
to cool, then it goes bang when you plug it back in.

Is that why so many electrical/electronic items go *bang* when you
haven't used them for years? - dried-out electrolytics?

** No.

Google "depolarisation" - fool.



...... Phil

 

[jfeng@my-deja.com]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 2:42:16 PM UTC-7, Chris wrote:

Is that why so many electrical/electronic items go *bang* when you
haven't used them for years? - dried-out electrolytics?
I would suggest you Google "forming electrolytic capacitors".

 

[Ian Field]

"Chris" <cbx@noreply.com> wrote in message
newsihdco$a1f$1@dont-email.me...

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 13:58:24 +0100, Ian Field wrote:

SMPSUs in set top boxes etc can be quite entertaining - high ESR
capacitors may not be obvious unless you unplug it long enough for them
to cool, then it goes bang when you plug it back in.

Is that why so many electrical/electronic items go *bang* when you
haven't used them for years? - dried-out electrolytics?

Its a possibility on anything with SMPSU - there's usually a small
electrolytic that stores a sample of the output voltage for the regulation
circuit, it turns the wick up when it thinks the output is low and the
result is often entertaining. If the filter electrolytics fail to stop
ripple - that can also confuse the regulator.

Linear stuff tends to be more forgiving, the regulator can get confused by
ripple, but the symptoms usually prompt action before the results get
destructive.

Aluminium electrolytics have an oxide layer on one of the foils which is the
actual dielectric, which foil its on is what determines the polarity. The
electrolyte is caustic and very gradually etches away the oxide layer - the
capacitance increases, but the voltage it can stand falls.

The oxide layer is "formed" in the first place by a process of electrolysis,
you can re form long stored capacitor in the same way. If you just apply the
full rated voltage, the nearest weak spot will break down, usually producing
a lot of heat - capacitor explosions weren't exactly rare and old tube stuff
could be particularly hazardous.

Re forming needs low constant current that won't heat weak spots in the
oxide layer, you bring it up slowly to its full rated voltage and hold it
there for about a day.

Most will take re forming to a higher voltage - but you end up with lower
capacitance.

 

[Ian Field]

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:791d1a16-69c2-4c9f-8bb3-283e020dade3@googlegroups.com...

Ian Field the Moron wrote:

-----------------------------




ESR improves temporarily with temperature rise -


** Bullshit about the "temporarily" part.

It does so for the whole life of the electro cap.

You're seriously fucked in the head.



** You are one seriously fact averse psychopath.



My first attempt at a DIY ESR meter couldn't do in circuit testing _
the
capacitors had to be unsoldered, that picked up some heat and gave a
false
low reading - I had to watch and wait as the capacitor cooled and the
ESR
rose to its true value.


** Contradicts nothing that I posted.


You have magic electrolytics that are permanently repaired from high ESR
by
heating - my real ones recover temporarily while heated and deteriorate
again when they cool.


** Course not.

You completely misread my post - fuckwit.

So I misread; " It does so for the whole life of the electro cap" did I?

 

[Phil Allison]

The Ian Field Bullshitting Moron wrote:

----------------------------------------

ESR improves temporarily with temperature rise -


** Bullshit about the "temporarily" part.

It does so for the whole life of the electro cap.

You're seriously fucked in the head.



** You are one seriously fact averse psychopath.



My first attempt at a DIY ESR meter couldn't do in circuit testing _
the
capacitors had to be unsoldered, that picked up some heat and gave a
false
low reading - I had to watch and wait as the capacitor cooled and the
ESR
rose to its true value.


** Contradicts nothing that I posted.


You have magic electrolytics that are permanently repaired from high ESR > >> heating - my real ones recover temporarily while heated and deteriorate
again when they cool.


** Course not.



You completely misread my post - fuckwit.


So I misread; " It does so for the whole life of the electro cap" did I?

** One has to be completely retarded to so do and YOU did.

And YOU are still doing it.

Cos YOU cannot see your error.




...... Phil

 

[Ian Field]

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2b35c789-68ac-4af6-9aa4-9819f41dfbaf@googlegroups.com...

The Ian Field Bullshitting Moron wrote:

----------------------------------------



ESR improves temporarily with temperature rise -


** Bullshit about the "temporarily" part.

It does so for the whole life of the electro cap.

You're seriously fucked in the head.



** You are one seriously fact averse psychopath.



My first attempt at a DIY ESR meter couldn't do in circuit testing
_
the
capacitors had to be unsoldered, that picked up some heat and gave
a
false
low reading - I had to watch and wait as the capacitor cooled and
the
ESR
rose to its true value.


** Contradicts nothing that I posted.


You have magic electrolytics that are permanently repaired from high
ESR > >> heating - my real ones recover temporarily while heated and
deteriorate
again when they cool.


** Course not.



You completely misread my post - fuckwit.


So I misread; " It does so for the whole life of the electro cap" did I?



** One has to be completely retarded to so do and YOU did.

And YOU are still doing it.

Cos YOU cannot see your error.

Yeah sure - now take your tablets and have a lie down.