Rewiring an antique Torchiere lamp....

[Peter W.]

> Do NOT tin the leads. The tin will flow under pressure, making the

If one uses the correct solder (37/63), that does not happen. Further, those clamps should be TIGHT!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Arie de Muynck]

On 2021-06-17 12:39, Peter W. wrote:

Do NOT tin the leads. The tin will flow under pressure, making the

If one uses the correct solder (37/63), that does not happen. Further, those clamps should be TIGHT!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Some background info on my statement:

https://cdn.thomasnet.com/ccp/00142951/263810.pdf

https://reprap.org/wiki/Wire_termination_for_screw_terminals

https://www.eptac.com/ask/when-to-tin-and-not-tin-wires/
IPC-A-610 Rev E, page 4-10, Section 4.1.4.2, states under defect
conditions, 6th bullet down, “Stranded wire is tinned (not shown)” this
is a defective condition for any wire going under any threaded fastener.
IPC/WHMA-A-620, page 4-10, Section 4.4, same criteria as J-STD-001 as above.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_terminal
While wires may be crimped, they should not be heavily tinned with
solder prior to installation in a screw terminal, since the soft metal
will cold flow, resulting in a loose connection and possible fire
hazard. Screw connectors sometimes come loose if not done up tightly
enough at fitting time. Verifying adequate tightening torque requires
calibrated installation tools and proper training. In the UK, all screw
connectors on fixed mains installations are required to be accessible
for servicing, for this reason.

Also, the technique is rejected by European certification organizations
for mains connections. Which I fully support, after finding and
repairing lots of bad connections that were done this way.

A modern workaround is using spring clamping instead of screw clamping.
No problem with cold flow there. And yes, THEN the tinning of stranded
wire is even preferred by me...

Arie

 

[Peter W.]

> Some background info on my statement:

Thank you for that, and as a routine, I do not tin wires when connecting to circuit boards with screw-down connectors. But I think that you are missing the context here.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8133OQYBg9L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

This is a device similar to those in question here. Often they are in close quarters with tight clearances. The purpose of tinning fine-stranded wiring is to reduce the possibility of a stray strand getting where it should not. The proper method is to tin the wire to \'tame\' the strands, then treat it as if it is a solid wire by crimping it around the screw, then screwing it down - TIGHT. This is not for corrosion or even for longevity (but the latter is a fortunate by-result).

As I understand it, and if you are in Europe, Wire Nuts are not permitted, and these sorts of things are used routinely in household wiring:

https://cpc.farnell.com/hellermanntyton/cs15nt/terminal-block-polyethylene-16a/dp/CB15474?CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-GEN-SHOPPING-HELLERMANNTYTON-CB15474&gross_price=true&mckv=swQRURloc_dc%7Cpcrid%7C72935675177%7Ckword%7C%7Cmatch%7C%7Cplid%7C%7Cpid%7CCB15474%7C&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg5WglMbk1wIVzLztCh05NQvYEAQYASABEgLGEfD_BwE (Chock-Block connectors).

They are not NEC approved here as free connectors (a wire nut is a \'free\' connector as it is not screwed down), nor would I tin wires into such were they an option (and screwed down).

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Peter W.]

> Some background info on my statement:

Thank you for that, and as a routine, I do not tin wires when connecting to circuit boards with screw-down connectors. But I think that you are missing the context here.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8133OQYBg9L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

This is a device similar to those in question here. Often they are in close quarters with tight clearances. The purpose of tinning fine-stranded wiring is to reduce the possibility of a stray strand getting where it should not. The proper method is to tin the wire to \'tame\' the strands, then treat it as if it is a solid wire by crimping it around the screw, then screwing it down - TIGHT. This is not for corrosion or even for longevity (but the latter is a fortunate by-result).

As I understand it, and if you are in Europe, Wire Nuts are not permitted, and these sorts of things are used routinely in household wiring:

https://cpc.farnell.com/hellermanntyton/cs15nt/terminal-block-polyethylene-16a/dp/CB15474?CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-GEN-SHOPPING-HELLERMANNTYTON-CB15474&gross_price=true&mckv=swQRURloc_dc%7Cpcrid%7C72935675177%7Ckword%7C%7Cmatch%7C%7Cplid%7C%7Cpid%7CCB15474%7C&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg5WglMbk1wIVzLztCh05NQvYEAQYASABEgLGEfD_BwE (Chock-Block connectors).

They are not NEC approved here as free connectors (a wire nut is a \'free\' connector as it is not screwed down), nor would I tin wires into such were they an option (and screwed down).

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[David Farber]

On 6/17/2021 7:54 AM, Peter W. wrote:

Some background info on my statement:

Thank you for that, and as a routine, I do not tin wires when connecting to circuit boards with screw-down connectors. But I think that you are missing the context here.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8133OQYBg9L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

This is a device similar to those in question here. Often they are in close quarters with tight clearances. The purpose of tinning fine-stranded wiring is to reduce the possibility of a stray strand getting where it should not. The proper method is to tin the wire to \'tame\' the strands, then treat it as if it is a solid wire by crimping it around the screw, then screwing it down - TIGHT. This is not for corrosion or even for longevity (but the latter is a fortunate by-result).

As I understand it, and if you are in Europe, Wire Nuts are not permitted, and these sorts of things are used routinely in household wiring:

https://cpc.farnell.com/hellermanntyton/cs15nt/terminal-block-polyethylene-16a/dp/CB15474?CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-GEN-SHOPPING-HELLERMANNTYTON-CB15474&gross_price=true&mckv=swQRURloc_dc%7Cpcrid%7C72935675177%7Ckword%7C%7Cmatch%7C%7Cplid%7C%7Cpid%7CCB15474%7C&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg5WglMbk1wIVzLztCh05NQvYEAQYASABEgLGEfD_BwE (Chock-Block connectors).

They are not NEC approved here as free connectors (a wire nut is a \'free\' connector as it is not screwed down), nor would I tin wires into such were they an option (and screwed down).

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Peter and Arie,

Earlier Peter linked to this Amazon product:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G2GLKMP/

In the product\'s description it says:

\"High-quality *tinned* copper inner core, can maintained copper wire for
a long time does not oxidize .protecting them from corrosion and making
it easier to solder.\"

Does this tinned copper wire have any relevance to your discussion about
tinning wires?

Thanks for your reply.
--
David Farber
Los Osos, CA

 

[David Farber]

On 6/17/2021 7:54 AM, Peter W. wrote:

Some background info on my statement:

Thank you for that, and as a routine, I do not tin wires when connecting to circuit boards with screw-down connectors. But I think that you are missing the context here.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8133OQYBg9L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

This is a device similar to those in question here. Often they are in close quarters with tight clearances. The purpose of tinning fine-stranded wiring is to reduce the possibility of a stray strand getting where it should not. The proper method is to tin the wire to \'tame\' the strands, then treat it as if it is a solid wire by crimping it around the screw, then screwing it down - TIGHT. This is not for corrosion or even for longevity (but the latter is a fortunate by-result).

As I understand it, and if you are in Europe, Wire Nuts are not permitted, and these sorts of things are used routinely in household wiring:

https://cpc.farnell.com/hellermanntyton/cs15nt/terminal-block-polyethylene-16a/dp/CB15474?CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-GEN-SHOPPING-HELLERMANNTYTON-CB15474&gross_price=true&mckv=swQRURloc_dc%7Cpcrid%7C72935675177%7Ckword%7C%7Cmatch%7C%7Cplid%7C%7Cpid%7CCB15474%7C&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg5WglMbk1wIVzLztCh05NQvYEAQYASABEgLGEfD_BwE (Chock-Block connectors).

They are not NEC approved here as free connectors (a wire nut is a \'free\' connector as it is not screwed down), nor would I tin wires into such were they an option (and screwed down).

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Peter and Arie,

Earlier Peter linked to this Amazon product:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G2GLKMP/

In the product\'s description it says:

\"High-quality *tinned* copper inner core, can maintained copper wire for
a long time does not oxidize .protecting them from corrosion and making
it easier to solder.\"

Does this tinned copper wire have any relevance to your discussion about
tinning wires?

Thanks for your reply.
--
David Farber
Los Osos, CA

 

[Arie de Muijnck]

On 2021-06-17 16:54, Peter W. wrote:

Some background info on my statement:

Thank you for that, and as a routine, I do not tin wires when connecting to circuit boards with screw-down connectors. But I think that you are missing the context here.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8133OQYBg9L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

This is a device similar to those in question here. Often they are in close quarters with tight clearances. The purpose of tinning fine-stranded wiring is to reduce the possibility of a stray strand getting where it should not. The proper method is to tin the wire to \'tame\' the strands, then treat it as if it is a solid wire by crimping it around the screw, then screwing it down - TIGHT. This is not for corrosion or even for longevity (but the latter is a fortunate by-result).

I see your problem. No way to use stranded wire there without at least
tinning the tip. In my youth (I\'m 68 now) small eyelets were used for
such problems, wire twisted around it, then the eyelet pressed close. I
cannot even find an example picture any more...

I\'m in Europe (Netherlands). Your construction here still appears in
wall outlets and wall switches, but is only allowed for solid wire. In
equipment, like terminal blocks on switching power supplies, I always
use a crimp terminal on the wire.
All mains connected stranded wire must be terminated in a bus with a
screw, like in the terminal block you mention:

As I understand it, and if you are in Europe, Wire Nuts are not permitted, and these sorts of things are used routinely in household wiring:

https://cpc.farnell.com/hellermanntyton/cs15nt/terminal-block-polyethylene-16a/dp/CB15474?CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-GEN-SHOPPING-HELLERMANNTYTON-CB15474&gross_price=true&mckv=swQRURloc_dc%7Cpcrid%7C72935675177%7Ckword%7C%7Cmatch%7C%7Cplid%7C%7Cpid%7CCB15474%7C&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg5WglMbk1wIVzLztCh05NQvYEAQYASABEgLGEfD_BwE (Chock-Block connectors).

They are not NEC approved here as free connectors (a wire nut is a \'free\' connector as it is not screwed down), nor would I tin wires into such were they an option (and screwed down).

They are officially only allowed here between the solid wires sticking
from the pipe in the ceiling, and the stranded wires going into the
lamp. Not allowed for solid to solid mains wiring (or any other mains
connected use).
In Dutch, a chandelier is a \'kroonluchter\' hence the name here is
\'kroonsteentje\' (chandelier stone, since it used to be made from porcelain).

Thanks for the insights!

Arie

 

[Arie de Muijnck]

On 2021-06-17 16:54, Peter W. wrote:

Some background info on my statement:

Thank you for that, and as a routine, I do not tin wires when connecting to circuit boards with screw-down connectors. But I think that you are missing the context here.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8133OQYBg9L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

This is a device similar to those in question here. Often they are in close quarters with tight clearances. The purpose of tinning fine-stranded wiring is to reduce the possibility of a stray strand getting where it should not. The proper method is to tin the wire to \'tame\' the strands, then treat it as if it is a solid wire by crimping it around the screw, then screwing it down - TIGHT. This is not for corrosion or even for longevity (but the latter is a fortunate by-result).

I see your problem. No way to use stranded wire there without at least
tinning the tip. In my youth (I\'m 68 now) small eyelets were used for
such problems, wire twisted around it, then the eyelet pressed close. I
cannot even find an example picture any more...

I\'m in Europe (Netherlands). Your construction here still appears in
wall outlets and wall switches, but is only allowed for solid wire. In
equipment, like terminal blocks on switching power supplies, I always
use a crimp terminal on the wire.
All mains connected stranded wire must be terminated in a bus with a
screw, like in the terminal block you mention:

As I understand it, and if you are in Europe, Wire Nuts are not permitted, and these sorts of things are used routinely in household wiring:

https://cpc.farnell.com/hellermanntyton/cs15nt/terminal-block-polyethylene-16a/dp/CB15474?CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-GEN-SHOPPING-HELLERMANNTYTON-CB15474&gross_price=true&mckv=swQRURloc_dc%7Cpcrid%7C72935675177%7Ckword%7C%7Cmatch%7C%7Cplid%7C%7Cpid%7CCB15474%7C&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg5WglMbk1wIVzLztCh05NQvYEAQYASABEgLGEfD_BwE (Chock-Block connectors).

They are not NEC approved here as free connectors (a wire nut is a \'free\' connector as it is not screwed down), nor would I tin wires into such were they an option (and screwed down).

They are officially only allowed here between the solid wires sticking
from the pipe in the ceiling, and the stranded wires going into the
lamp. Not allowed for solid to solid mains wiring (or any other mains
connected use).
In Dutch, a chandelier is a \'kroonluchter\' hence the name here is
\'kroonsteentje\' (chandelier stone, since it used to be made from porcelain).

Thanks for the insights!

Arie

 

[Arie de Muijnck]

On 2021-06-17 17:32, Arie de Muijnck wrote:

I see your problem. No way to use stranded wire there without at least
tinning the tip. In my youth (I\'m 68 now) small eyelets were used for
such problems, wire twisted around it, then the eyelet pressed close. I
cannot even find an example picture any more...

Found something that looks like it, but not for electricity of course:
https://www.hornbach.nl/shop/Oogtang-incl-oogjes/8067143/artikel.html

The inner diameter used to be 3.2mm, fit for our usual M3 bolts.

Arie

 

[Arie de Muijnck]

On 2021-06-17 17:32, Arie de Muijnck wrote:

I see your problem. No way to use stranded wire there without at least
tinning the tip. In my youth (I\'m 68 now) small eyelets were used for
such problems, wire twisted around it, then the eyelet pressed close. I
cannot even find an example picture any more...

Found something that looks like it, but not for electricity of course:
https://www.hornbach.nl/shop/Oogtang-incl-oogjes/8067143/artikel.html

The inner diameter used to be 3.2mm, fit for our usual M3 bolts.

Arie

 

[Peter W.]

Does this tinned copper wire have any relevance to your discussion about
tinning wires?

David - the discussion with Arie is peripheral to the pointed wire material. That material is factory-plated with a very tin tin coating. He and I are generally in agreement for electronics work, but in this case, we are dealing with practicalities and materials that are not specific to his concerns. \"Tinning\" in your context means using a small amount of solder at the ends of the wire to prevent loose strands. Then, crimp the wire around the screw before tightening - hard. 37/63 solder (eutectic) has no plastic state, so you do not have to be concerned about crumbling solder if the wires move during the cooling period.

I have done a lot of these over time, including one 16-lamp (candelabra-base) crystal chandelier in our present house. That took nearly 12 hours of work to get just right - and including color-coding and removing many of the crystals for safe-keeping. I learned the ball-chain trick from a restorer back in the 1980s when he showed me how he did it. Did you know that one can still get the \'fake candle-wax\' socket covers? and in multiple styles? https://i.etsystatic.com/13547198/r/il/a525df/1815436283/il_1140xN.1815436283_78js.jpg One more thing on that particular chandelier ( I wish I had a picture, but I am at work). It is a sad story, but when we purchased our house in 2008, it had been empty for 2 years as the previous occupants lost it to foreclosure. They had sold off all the appliances, some of the vintage hardware and other strange things, but not the three fairly massive chandeliers. When we had our insurance inspection, the inspector put a rider on our policy calling them out as we had the \'full-in-kind\' restoration option. I won\'t state the imputed value, other than I thought it was absurd at the time. Not so much now.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[David Farber]

On 6/17/2021 9:16 AM, Peter W. wrote:

Does this tinned copper wire have any relevance to your discussion about
tinning wires?

David - the discussion with Arie is peripheral to the pointed wire material. That material is factory-plated with a very tin tin coating. He and I are generally in agreement for electronics work, but in this case, we are dealing with practicalities and materials that are not specific to his concerns. \"Tinning\" in your context means using a small amount of solder at the ends of the wire to prevent loose strands. Then, crimp the wire around the screw before tightening - hard. 37/63 solder (eutectic) has no plastic state, so you do not have to be concerned about crumbling solder if the wires move during the cooling period.

I have done a lot of these over time, including one 16-lamp (candelabra-base) crystal chandelier in our present house. That took nearly 12 hours of work to get just right - and including color-coding and removing many of the crystals for safe-keeping. I learned the ball-chain trick from a restorer back in the 1980s when he showed me how he did it. Did you know that one can still get the \'fake candle-wax\' socket covers? and in multiple styles? https://i.etsystatic.com/13547198/r/il/a525df/1815436283/il_1140xN.1815436283_78js.jpg One more thing on that particular chandelier ( I wish I had a picture, but I am at work). It is a sad story, but when we purchased our house in 2008, it had been empty for 2 years as the previous occupants lost it to foreclosure. They had sold off all the appliances, some of the vintage hardware and other strange things, but not the three fairly massive chandeliers. When we had our insurance inspection, the inspector put a rider on our policy calling them out as we had the \'full-in-kind\' restoration option. I won\'t state the imputed value, other than I thought it was absurd at the time. Not so much now.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

The solder I have is Ersin, multicore, 60/40 which is at least 15 years
old. Is not using solder better than using the wrong solder?

Afterthought: I just found this discussion:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/do-you-use-60-40-solder-or-63-37-solder-and-why.1982988/

At this rate, I\'ll never get this lamp fixed! LOL

Thanks for your reply.
--
David Farber
Los Osos, CA

 

[David Farber]

On 6/17/2021 9:16 AM, Peter W. wrote:

Does this tinned copper wire have any relevance to your discussion about
tinning wires?

David - the discussion with Arie is peripheral to the pointed wire material. That material is factory-plated with a very tin tin coating. He and I are generally in agreement for electronics work, but in this case, we are dealing with practicalities and materials that are not specific to his concerns. \"Tinning\" in your context means using a small amount of solder at the ends of the wire to prevent loose strands. Then, crimp the wire around the screw before tightening - hard. 37/63 solder (eutectic) has no plastic state, so you do not have to be concerned about crumbling solder if the wires move during the cooling period.

I have done a lot of these over time, including one 16-lamp (candelabra-base) crystal chandelier in our present house. That took nearly 12 hours of work to get just right - and including color-coding and removing many of the crystals for safe-keeping. I learned the ball-chain trick from a restorer back in the 1980s when he showed me how he did it. Did you know that one can still get the \'fake candle-wax\' socket covers? and in multiple styles? https://i.etsystatic.com/13547198/r/il/a525df/1815436283/il_1140xN.1815436283_78js.jpg One more thing on that particular chandelier ( I wish I had a picture, but I am at work). It is a sad story, but when we purchased our house in 2008, it had been empty for 2 years as the previous occupants lost it to foreclosure. They had sold off all the appliances, some of the vintage hardware and other strange things, but not the three fairly massive chandeliers. When we had our insurance inspection, the inspector put a rider on our policy calling them out as we had the \'full-in-kind\' restoration option. I won\'t state the imputed value, other than I thought it was absurd at the time. Not so much now.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

The solder I have is Ersin, multicore, 60/40 which is at least 15 years
old. Is not using solder better than using the wrong solder?

Afterthought: I just found this discussion:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/do-you-use-60-40-solder-or-63-37-solder-and-why.1982988/

At this rate, I\'ll never get this lamp fixed! LOL

Thanks for your reply.
--
David Farber
Los Osos, CA

 

[Peter W.]

The solder I have is Ersin, multicore, 60/40 which is at least 15 years
old. Is not using solder better than using the wrong solder?

Afterthought: I just found this discussion:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/do-you-use-60-40-solder-or-63-37-solder-and-why.1982988/

If you are careful, 60/40 is OK - point being that you are not using enough on the wire end to have to worry about it moving during the plastic stage.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Peter W.]

The solder I have is Ersin, multicore, 60/40 which is at least 15 years
old. Is not using solder better than using the wrong solder?

Afterthought: I just found this discussion:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/do-you-use-60-40-solder-or-63-37-solder-and-why.1982988/

If you are careful, 60/40 is OK - point being that you are not using enough on the wire end to have to worry about it moving during the plastic stage.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[David Farber]

On 6/18/2021 4:00 AM, Peter W. wrote:

The solder I have is Ersin, multicore, 60/40 which is at least 15 years
old. Is not using solder better than using the wrong solder?

Afterthought: I just found this discussion:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/do-you-use-60-40-solder-or-63-37-solder-and-why.1982988/

If you are careful, 60/40 is OK - point being that you are not using enough on the wire end to have to worry about it moving during the plastic stage.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Hi Peter,

Thanks so much for all the details you\'ve provided. I\'ve ordered the
parts and should have it all put back together by the end of next week.

--
David Farber
Los Osos, CA

 

[David Farber]

On 6/18/2021 9:09 AM, David Farber wrote:

On 6/18/2021 4:00 AM, Peter W. wrote:

The solder I have is Ersin, multicore, 60/40 which is at least 15 years
old. Is not using solder better than using the wrong solder?

Afterthought: I just found this discussion:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/do-you-use-60-40-solder-or-63-37-solder-and-why.1982988/


If you are careful, 60/40 is OK - point being that you are not using
enough on the wire end to have to worry about it moving during the
plastic stage.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Hi Peter,

Thanks so much for all the details you\'ve provided. I\'ve ordered the
parts and should have it all put back together by the end of next week.

--
David Farber
Los Osos, CA


Hi Peter,

The parts have arrived. I have a question about the base paper
insulators I ordered. I should have asked you before ordering.

This is what I ordered:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/123481629788 (the item\'s description says it\'s
1 5/8\" tall but I measured it as 1 17/32\" tall which is 3/32\" shorter).

Is this the item that I should have ordered?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/123577744732
It\'s supposedly 1/4\" taller plus it has a notched cutout which I think
will fit the metal tab that extends from the support structure.

Here are some pictures that show the results of my unsuccessful attempts
at fitting the insulators onto the sockets.
https://app.box.com/s/imvpm6485l8t61td6v2v6dgojcgoz8ub

Thanks for your reply.
--
David Farber
Los Osos, CA

 

[Peter W.]

The short answer is: What you ordered is for a fixture with a switch in it, either a turn or pushbutton. So, you are correct, you should have ordered the second type with the bayonete-style attachment.

Good luck with it - looks like you are getting there.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Peter W.]

The short answer is: What you ordered is for a fixture with a switch in it, either a turn or pushbutton. So, you are correct, you should have ordered the second type with the bayonete-style attachment.

Good luck with it - looks like you are getting there.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[David Farber]

On 6/23/2021 3:39 AM, Peter W. wrote:

The short answer is: What you ordered is for a fixture with a switch in it, either a turn or pushbutton. So, you are correct, you should have ordered the second type with the bayonete-style attachment.

Good luck with it - looks like you are getting there.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I had thought that when an insulator was branded as \"keyless,\" it meant
that it was designed for socket without a switch. I should have used
some common sense when I initially looked at the photograph. Now I
wonder, by what definition could this insulator be described as\"keyless?\"

Thanks for your reply.
--
David Farber
Los Osos, CA