Remember when... err... win

Remember when one had to type in "win" at the DOS prompt to run
Windows?

Some used computers then and remember.

Kids today got it way too easy.

They should have to start out on an XT and learn about it bit by bit
(thanks, Barbara) and pass data over a 2400 baud modem connection, and
THEN get to use the new stuff.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 5:28:40 PM UTC+11, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Remember when one had to type in "win" at the DOS prompt to run
Windows?

Some used computers then and remember.

Kids today got it way too easy.

They should have to start out on an XT and learn about it bit by bit
(thanks, Barbara) and pass data over a 2400 baud modem connection, and
THEN get to use the new stuff.

Why not do the job properly, and insist that they learn how to flake stone tools, rather using kitchen knives made out of bronze or steel.

And you should be unhappy about molly-coddling them by giving them enough food to eat all the year round. Our ancestors were toughened up by watching half their siblings die of starvation or disease before they'd grown up.

I don't imagine that it made them better people, but DLUNU will probably have a different opinion.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 2 Mar 2020 06:28:35 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Remember when one had to type in "win" at the DOS prompt to run
Windows?

Some used computers then and remember.

Kids today got it way too easy.

They should have to start out on an XT and learn about it bit by bit
(thanks, Barbara) and pass data over a 2400 baud modem connection, and
THEN get to use the new stuff.

Must one suffer before enlightenment?

In the 1980's, when PC's were first inflicted on the general public,
the manufacturers were desperately trying to make them usable by
everyone, preferably without learning to program, type, or deal with
arcane command line incantations. It took about 40 years and I think
they've come quite close to a machine that could be operated by any of
today's kids. Now, you want the next generation to suffer through all
the pains of computer evolution over the last 40 years before they're
allowed to use a modern computer? Why? So as to better appreciate
your contributions to PC development? Are you some manner of sadist?
It would be far better to let the next generation start where we left
off, and let them make their own contributions for their next
generation to use. Their computers will probably anticipate your
needs, program themselves, and not look anything like today's
machines, all of which can be accomplished without dragging everyone
through the junk yard of past bad ideas, the misery of the previous
generations of atrocious software, and the limitations of the now
ancient technologies.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 01 Mar 2020 23:58:04 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:


>Must one suffer before enlightenment?

I believe all the great philosophers were agreed that we must, Jeff,
yes. Especially that Greek fellow who lived in a barrel and eventually
got devoured by wild dogs in the pursuit of knowledge. :-D

 

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 2:58:15 AM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Mon, 2 Mar 2020 06:28:35 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Remember when one had to type in "win" at the DOS prompt to run
Windows?

Some used computers then and remember.

Kids today got it way too easy.

They should have to start out on an XT and learn about it bit by bit
(thanks, Barbara) and pass data over a 2400 baud modem connection, and
THEN get to use the new stuff.

Must one suffer before enlightenment?

Not me... just everyone else

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 1:28:40 AM UTC-5, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Remember when one had to type in "win" at the DOS prompt to run
Windows?

Some used computers then and remember.

Kids today got it way too easy.

They should have to start out on an XT and learn about it bit by bit
(thanks, Barbara) and pass data over a 2400 baud modem connection, and
THEN get to use the new stuff.

You mean you are going to make them walk into the kitchen and pick up a handset attached to the black box on the wall, then turn the crank a few times to get the operator's attention before you let them use their cell phone? You are going to make them learn how to feed, care for and harness a horse before you let them drive a car? You are going to teak them how to card wool or cotton before you let them buy clothes ready made?

Do you yell at the kids to get off your lawn?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:dcd54465-524a-455b-b6d8-45b6b5f1dd53@googlegroups.com:

You mean you are going to make them walk into the kitchen and pick
up a handset attached to the black box on the wall, then turn the
crank a few times to get the operator's attention before you let
them use their cell phone?

No. Those do not handle modems.

One does not teach logic operations by putting a Ryzen CPU on the
board.

Hell, they should start on a 555 timer and an old synthesizer
circuit. Both analog and digital all in one.

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in news:dcd54465-524a-
455b-b6d8-45b6b5f1dd53@googlegroups.com:

Do you yell at the kids to get off your lawn?

No, I start right in with the modified carnival bb gun machine gun
except I spray salt pellets at them. Better sting, less evidence.

 

bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote in
news:555e4612-ee0f-4a0c-bf6d-20846b188375@googlegroups.com:

....No, I start right in with the modified carnival bb gun
machine gun
except I spray salt pellets at them. Better sting, less
evidence.....


A man with a plan. Another reason why engineers are held in such
high esteem in society.

No part of the star can be visible (the carnival stand). It was
hard to do with BBs because they spray out of a non rifled barrel
like atomic particle collisions at the LHC. So all the aiming in the
world does not remove the choas aspect and winning the challenge is
pretty hard since you only get so many shots.

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:0fec76ce-4a41-42d8-ac43-e352101a8090@googlegroups.com:

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 6:38:07 AM UTC-5,
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:dcd54465-524a-455b-b6d8-45b6b5f1dd53@googlegroups.com:

You mean you are going to make them walk into the kitchen and
pick up a handset attached to the black box on the wall, then
turn the crank a few times to get the operator's attention
before you let them use their cell phone?

No. Those do not handle modems.

One does not teach logic operations by putting a Ryzen CPU on
the
board.

Hell, they should start on a 555 timer and an old synthesizer
circuit. Both analog and digital all in one.

I didn't know you could get a 555 timer to play YouTube. I'd like
to see your circuit. Please post.

WTF does making an audio synth have to do with playing a youtube
video?

And how does youtube teach logic operations? It does not. There
are youtube videos that would relieve the instructor of the
responsibility of actually teaching the course.

A piano prodigy get a full size piano because that is all they
make.
A computer prodigy usually starts on some father supplied gadget or
toy that he shows him how it works, and spawns the kid's interests.

So, YES, starting with basic hardware is far better than feeding
some jaded kid a full bore gaming computer and skipping the how it
works segment, and then the kid calls himself computer savvy when he
is about as far from it as it gets.

Look at SkyTard Trolling for a perfect example. And he thinks he
is so all knowing about computers because he watched a couple of
youtube videos.

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 6:38:07 AM UTC-5, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:dcd54465-524a-455b-b6d8-45b6b5f1dd53@googlegroups.com:

You mean you are going to make them walk into the kitchen and pick
up a handset attached to the black box on the wall, then turn the
crank a few times to get the operator's attention before you let
them use their cell phone?

No. Those do not handle modems.

One does not teach logic operations by putting a Ryzen CPU on the
board.

Hell, they should start on a 555 timer and an old synthesizer
circuit. Both analog and digital all in one.

I didn't know you could get a 555 timer to play YouTube. I'd like to see your circuit. Please post.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

....No, I start right in with the modified carnival bb gun machine gun
except I spray salt pellets at them. Better sting, less evidence.....


A man with a plan. Another reason why engineers are held in such high esteem in society.

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 7:20:36 AM UTC-5, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:0fec76ce-4a41-42d8-ac43-e352101a8090@googlegroups.com:

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 6:38:07 AM UTC-5,
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:dcd54465-524a-455b-b6d8-45b6b5f1dd53@googlegroups.com:

You mean you are going to make them walk into the kitchen and
pick up a handset attached to the black box on the wall, then
turn the crank a few times to get the operator's attention
before you let them use their cell phone?

No. Those do not handle modems.

One does not teach logic operations by putting a Ryzen CPU on
the
board.

Hell, they should start on a 555 timer and an old synthesizer
circuit. Both analog and digital all in one.

I didn't know you could get a 555 timer to play YouTube. I'd like
to see your circuit. Please post.


WTF does making an audio synth have to do with playing a youtube
video?

Exactly! You don't seem to understand what computers are for. They may be built by geeks, but it's all paid for by the masses who want to watch cat videos and care nothing about your ideas of what people should learn.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:4454be87-0ac2-41d6-a9f8-900d2787f393@googlegroups.com:

Exactly! You don't seem to understand what computers are for.
They may be built by geeks, but it's all paid for by the masses
who want to watch cat videos and care nothing about your ideas of
what people should learn.

Nope. I watch chipmunk videos. And Squirrel videos. And Hummingbird
and Blue Jay videos. And Lynx videos!

Old audio and video recording and playback format videos too.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBNTAmLRmUg>

 

[bitrex]

On 3/2/20 2:58 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Mon, 2 Mar 2020 06:28:35 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Remember when one had to type in "win" at the DOS prompt to run
Windows?

Some used computers then and remember.

Kids today got it way too easy.

They should have to start out on an XT and learn about it bit by bit
(thanks, Barbara) and pass data over a 2400 baud modem connection, and
THEN get to use the new stuff.

Must one suffer before enlightenment?

In the 1980's, when PC's were first inflicted on the general public,
the manufacturers were desperately trying to make them usable by
everyone, preferably without learning to program, type, or deal with
arcane command line incantations. It took about 40 years and I think
they've come quite close to a machine that could be operated by any of
today's kids. Now, you want the next generation to suffer through all
the pains of computer evolution over the last 40 years before they're
allowed to use a modern computer? Why? So as to better appreciate
your contributions to PC development? Are you some manner of sadist?
It would be far better to let the next generation start where we left
off, and let them make their own contributions for their next
generation to use. Their computers will probably anticipate your
needs, program themselves, and not look anything like today's
machines, all of which can be accomplished without dragging everyone
through the junk yard of past bad ideas, the misery of the previous
generations of atrocious software, and the limitations of the now
ancient technologies.

The early to mid 90s (which seems to be the era he was talking about)
was a dreadful time to be a CS/programming student. Windows and Mac had
become monolithic and one was expected to learn to write software for
those operating systems but the tools were obtuse and poorly-documented,
and the hardware that most educational institutions could afford was
clunky and underpowered for developing the kind of multi-media and
computer graphics apps that everyone wanted to get into. Well, at a
computer science department at an arts school, at least. The machines
were clunky and underpowered too for much of the software out there too
in general, the x86 architecture struggled with 3D up until Pentium, you
had to be a hacking genius to get good performance on stuff like that
out of a 486.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root>

With tools like modern varaints of C++, OpenGL and an API like
OpenFrameworks a novice can build applications in hours that would've
taken days or weeks of paging through bad documentation and struggling
with ANSI C and assembly back then.

incidentally I recall people were trying to do standard-def video
editing on a Mac Performa; you laid out your edits and hit "process" and
let the box grind overnight and prayed that it didn't hang somewhere
along the line your chances were about 50/50

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2020-03-02 17:15, bitrex wrote:

On 3/2/20 2:58 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 2 Mar 2020 06:28:35 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Remember when one had to type in "win" at the DOS prompt to run
Windows?

Some used computers then and remember.

Kids today got it way too easy.

They should have to start out on an XT and learn about it bit by bit
(thanks, Barbara) and pass data over a 2400 baud modem connection, and
THEN get to use the new stuff.

Must one suffer before enlightenment?

In the 1980's, when PC's were first inflicted on the general public,
the manufacturers were desperately trying to make them usable by
everyone, [...]


The early to mid 90s (which seems to be the era he was talking about)
was a dreadful time to be a CS/programming student. Windows and Mac had
become monolithic and one was expected to learn to write software for
those operating systems but the tools were obtuse and poorly-documented,
and the hardware that most educational institutions could afford was
clunky and underpowered for developing the kind of multi-media and
computer graphics apps that everyone wanted to get into. [...]

These days however, developers have top-of-the-line hardware and
develop bloated applications that can only run on top-of-the-line
hardware.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 2:22:29 PM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

These days however, developers have top-of-the-line hardware and
develop bloated applications that can only run on top-of-the-line
hardware.

By "top-of-the-line" he means something sold in the last 10 years. There actually hasn't been a large improvement in computing speed to other capabilities in the last 10 years. The main limitation of any PC is memory. People who buy a machine with limited amounts of RAM will find the machine slows down pretty much out of the gate and only gets worse with updates and various drivers and apps that are added but never removed. They blame it on developer "bloat" because they don't understand this simple fact.

The last few machines I bought were already some four or five years old but had adequate memory for the task they were intended for. Some only had 8 GB because they would not be used for anything other than lab machines running simple test programs. My personal machine was bought with 32 GB of RAM and is still fat and happy with all the browser tabs I keep open and any design tool I use. Not bad for $600. It's a bear though. Weighs a ton and my legs never get cold on winter nights. lol Summer can be a bit uncomfortable though.

Get a decent mid range computer and upgrade the RAM when it starts to drag. You will find your CPU can handle pretty much all the apps anyone writes for it unless you are trying to do major video editing or something really compute intensive.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 1:28:40 AM UTC-5, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Remember when one had to type in "win" at the DOS prompt to run
Windows?

Some used computers then and remember.

Kids today got it way too easy.

They should have to start out on an XT and learn about it bit by bit
(thanks, Barbara) and pass data over a 2400 baud modem connection, and
THEN get to use the new stuff.

No, I don't remember those days and doubt they existed. And even if it
did exist, just put "win" in the autoexec.bat file, problem solved.

Next!

 

Whoey Louie <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in
news:00d913e7-322d-4b86-9674-b8c7af19be46@googlegroups.com:

> No, I don't remember those days and doubt they existed.

You are a fucking retarded, fat, playground bully wannabe fuckhead,
and that is about it.

And even
if it did exist,

Fuck you, TrumpTard.

just put "win" in the autoexec.bat file, problem
solved.

Nobody said it was a problem, you stupid fuck.

And no, it was not recommended to do that. Some DOS things need
doing first. And no, not from out of the autoexec file.

> Next!

You are an abject idiot.

 

[bitrex]

On 3/2/20 4:02 PM, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 2:22:29 PM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

These days however, developers have top-of-the-line hardware and
develop bloated applications that can only run on top-of-the-line
hardware.

By "top-of-the-line" he means something sold in the last 10 years. There actually hasn't been a large improvement in computing speed to other capabilities in the last 10 years. The main limitation of any PC is memory. People who buy a machine with limited amounts of RAM will find the machine slows down pretty much out of the gate and only gets worse with updates and various drivers and apps that are added but never removed. They blame it on developer "bloat" because they don't understand this simple fact.

Performance-per-watt has increased substantially. My dual-core Intel i7
mobile laptop processor from 2018 has about equal performance drawing 15
watts as my 90 watt AMD Phenom II six-core desktop processor from 8-9
years ago does.

This current $90 AMD desktop processor will stomp all over both at 50
watts. though also part of that is also bigger cache, higher memory
bandwidth and FSB clocks:

<https://www.google.com/search?q=AMD+Ryzen+3+3200G+4-Core&oq=AMD+Ryzen+3+3200G+4-Core&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60.235j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>

The last few machines I bought were already some four or five years old but had adequate memory for the task they were intended for. Some only had 8 GB because they would not be used for anything other than lab machines running simple test programs. My personal machine was bought with 32 GB of RAM and is still fat and happy with all the browser tabs I keep open and any design tool I use. Not bad for $600. It's a bear though. Weighs a ton and my legs never get cold on winter nights. lol Summer can be a bit uncomfortable though.

Get a decent mid range computer and upgrade the RAM when it starts to drag. You will find your CPU can handle pretty much all the apps anyone writes for it unless you are trying to do major video editing or something really compute intensive.

As if there weren't slow load times and sluggish software that only
performed well on top-of-the-line hardware in the 80s and 90s. Example:
windows 3.1. Try running that on a 386SX 16 MHz with 2 megs of RAM, it's
usable but not pleasant I remember cuz I had one. And remember that
machine cost the better part of TWO THOUSAND dollars in 1992 when 3.1
was released.

It was indeed better on 4, not every even mid-tier 386 mobo supported 4
megs of RAM. a 486DX-class with 8 was ideal. 1 meg sticks of RAM cost
about $80 in 1992 dollars, in 1992. A business-class machine with a
486DX 33MHz, 8 megs of RAM and 500 meg hard drive with SVGA monitor cost
about $5-7k then.

In the extreme case in the 1980s my buddy and I sometimes waited 15
minutes to load a game into the Commodore 64 from a cassette.