Reference direction of electrical current in teaching/books

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:11:30 +1200, greg <greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz>
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

The "whole atom" includes all the electrons, and a positive ion is
missing some. A hydrogen ion *is* a naked proton.

And apparently the conductivity of ice is due to the
motion of protons rather than electrons:

http://skua.gps.caltech.edu/hermann/ice.htm

From that page:

"Proton conduction in ice and H-bonded materials is analogous to electron
conduction in semiconductors."

Very cool. The protons (H nuclei) actually jump between molecules to
carry charge.

Water and ice are amazing things. Both are essentially black in the
thermal IR, which can be handy.

I wonder if you could make a transistor out of ice...

Now that's an interesting idea. Ice is a pretty good insulator, but I
don't know if some doped ice allotrope can be a semiconductor. It
wouldn't be real hard to try some cases. You could make a diode or a
transistor by changing water or vapor impurities while freezing a
layer onto a surface.

John

 

[krw]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 06:30:28 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:16:16 -0700, John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:00:04 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:59:18 -0700, John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:51:00 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:31:14 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:06:30 +0100, Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:53:20 +0000, Rich Grise wrote:

One thing that does confuse me - which end of a battery is tha anode?
The end the positive charge comes out of?

Positive charges don't come out of a battery

Not unless you connect the terminals with a liquid or a semiconductor
or a photoconductor or an ionized gas.

---
Those aren't positive charges, they're just places where electrons
ain't. The putatative "holes".

A nucleus isn't a hole.

---
Who said it was?
---

It is full of real positive charges, known as "protons."

---
Nope, it's full of protons _and_ neutrons, you patronizing ass.

Hydrogen? Hydrogen is a major charge carrier in lots of situations.
Situations that keep you alive.

---
Doing the "Larkin shuffle" again, huh?

Above, you stated:

"It is full of real positive charges, known as "protons.""

Note that you used the plural, "charges", which shows that you weren't
thinking about elemental hydrogen, "1H", the nucleus of which comprises
a single proton, yet that's what you try to change the subject with.
---

"Protons" is also plural, so the sentence is consistent.

<snip>

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:19:17 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 06:30:28 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:16:16 -0700, John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:00:04 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:59:18 -0700, John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:51:00 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:31:14 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:06:30 +0100, Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:53:20 +0000, Rich Grise wrote:

One thing that does confuse me - which end of a battery is tha anode?
The end the positive charge comes out of?

Positive charges don't come out of a battery

Not unless you connect the terminals with a liquid or a semiconductor
or a photoconductor or an ionized gas.

---
Those aren't positive charges, they're just places where electrons
ain't. The putatative "holes".

A nucleus isn't a hole.

---
Who said it was?
---

It is full of real positive charges, known as "protons."

---
Nope, it's full of protons _and_ neutrons, you patronizing ass.

Hydrogen? Hydrogen is a major charge carrier in lots of situations.
Situations that keep you alive.

---
Doing the "Larkin shuffle" again, huh?

Above, you stated:

"It is full of real positive charges, known as "protons.""

Note that you used the plural, "charges", which shows that you weren't
thinking about elemental hydrogen, "1H", the nucleus of which comprises
a single proton, yet that's what you try to change the subject with.
---

"Protons" is also plural, so the sentence is consistent.

And this ain't alt.english.usage, either. JF attacks the English when
he has no basis for evaluating substance. He's just in a bad mood.

John

 

[John Fields]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:49:44 -0700, John Larkin
<jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:19:17 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 06:30:28 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:16:16 -0700, John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:00:04 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:59:18 -0700, John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:51:00 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:31:14 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:06:30 +0100, Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:53:20 +0000, Rich Grise wrote:

One thing that does confuse me - which end of a battery is tha anode?
The end the positive charge comes out of?

Positive charges don't come out of a battery

Not unless you connect the terminals with a liquid or a semiconductor
or a photoconductor or an ionized gas.

---
Those aren't positive charges, they're just places where electrons
ain't. The putatative "holes".

A nucleus isn't a hole.

---
Who said it was?
---

It is full of real positive charges, known as "protons."

---
Nope, it's full of protons _and_ neutrons, you patronizing ass.

Hydrogen? Hydrogen is a major charge carrier in lots of situations.
Situations that keep you alive.

---
Doing the "Larkin shuffle" again, huh?

Above, you stated:

"It is full of real positive charges, known as "protons.""

Note that you used the plural, "charges", which shows that you weren't
thinking about elemental hydrogen, "1H", the nucleus of which comprises
a single proton, yet that's what you try to change the subject with.
---

"Protons" is also plural, so the sentence is consistent.

---
Whatever you think that means.

Elemental hydrogen has but a single proton in its nucleus, so "protons"
is wrong.

And this ain't alt.english.usage, either. JF attacks the English when
he has no basis for evaluating substance. He's just in a bad mood.

John
JF

 

[krw]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:47:50 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:49:44 -0700, John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:19:17 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 06:30:28 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:16:16 -0700, John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:00:04 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:59:18 -0700, John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:51:00 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:31:14 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:06:30 +0100, Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:53:20 +0000, Rich Grise wrote:

One thing that does confuse me - which end of a battery is tha anode?
The end the positive charge comes out of?

Positive charges don't come out of a battery

Not unless you connect the terminals with a liquid or a semiconductor
or a photoconductor or an ionized gas.

---
Those aren't positive charges, they're just places where electrons
ain't. The putatative "holes".

A nucleus isn't a hole.

---
Who said it was?
---

It is full of real positive charges, known as "protons."

---
Nope, it's full of protons _and_ neutrons, you patronizing ass.

Hydrogen? Hydrogen is a major charge carrier in lots of situations.
Situations that keep you alive.

---
Doing the "Larkin shuffle" again, huh?

Above, you stated:

"It is full of real positive charges, known as "protons.""

Note that you used the plural, "charges", which shows that you weren't
thinking about elemental hydrogen, "1H", the nucleus of which comprises
a single proton, yet that's what you try to change the subject with.
---

"Protons" is also plural, so the sentence is consistent.

---
Whatever you think that means.

It means that there is nothing wrong with the statement that you
objected to.

Elemental hydrogen has but a single proton in its nucleus, so "protons"
is wrong.

There *is* more than one hydrogen atom in the universe.

And this ain't alt.english.usage, either. JF attacks the English when
he has no basis for evaluating substance. He's just in a bad mood.

John
JF

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:06:05 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

Elemental hydrogen has but a single proton in its nucleus, so "protons"
is wrong.

There *is* more than one hydrogen atom in the universe.

I actually own several of them.

John

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:06:05 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

Elemental hydrogen has but a single proton in its nucleus, so "protons"
is wrong.

There *is* more than one hydrogen atom in the universe.

I actually own several of them.

John

Water you talking about, John? ;-)


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[krw]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:11:02 -0700, John Larkin
<jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:06:05 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:


Elemental hydrogen has but a single proton in its nucleus, so "protons"
is wrong.

There *is* more than one hydrogen atom in the universe.

I actually own several of them.

Nah, you're just borrowing them. Have another beer...

 

[ehsjr]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:06:05 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:


Elemental hydrogen has but a single proton in its nucleus, so "protons"
is wrong.

There *is* more than one hydrogen atom in the universe.

I actually own several of them.

John



Water you talking about, John? ;-)

Ouch.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

ehsjr wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:06:05 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:


Elemental hydrogen has but a single proton in its nucleus, so "protons"
is wrong.

There *is* more than one hydrogen atom in the universe.

I actually own several of them.

John



Water you talking about, John? ;-)



Ouch.

Hydrogen doesn't give you much to work with, you know! ;-)


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 01:57:24 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

ehsjr wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:06:05 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:


Elemental hydrogen has but a single proton in its nucleus, so "protons"
is wrong.

There *is* more than one hydrogen atom in the universe.

I actually own several of them.

John



Water you talking about, John? ;-)



Ouch.


Hydrogen doesn't give you much to work with, you know! ;-)

That's elemental.

John

 

[Rich Grise]

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:26:42 +0000, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2009-06-30, Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net> wrote:

One thing that does confuse me - which end of a battery is tha anode?
The end the positive charge comes out of?

No, the end it flows into (thus it's the opposite terminal whilst recharging)

So, in, say, a zinc-carbon cell, the carbon is the cathode and the zinc
is the anode? ?:-/

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 00:08:31 +1200, Greg Ewing wrote:

John Fields wrote:

Those aren't positive charges, they're just places where electrons
ain't. The putatative "holes".

Although in semiconductors, apparently, due to some quantum
reason that I don't fully understand, the holes really do
behave as though they were positively charged particles.

The difference shows up in the Hall effect, where positive
charges moving one way are *not* equivalent to negative
charges moving the other way. The Hall voltage generated
by a p-type semiconductor is what you expect from moving
positive charges.

If anyone can provide an intuitive explanation of that,
I'd be most interested...

Since holes are actually nothing, they're not deflected by a magnetic
field? ;-)

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:11:30 +1200, greg wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

The "whole atom" includes all the electrons, and a positive ion is
missing some. A hydrogen ion *is* a naked proton.

And apparently the conductivity of ice is due to the
motion of protons rather than electrons:

http://skua.gps.caltech.edu/hermann/ice.htm

From that page:

"Proton conduction in ice and H-bonded materials is analogous to electron
conduction in semiconductors."

I wonder if you could make a transistor out of ice...

It wouldn't have a very good temperature range...

;-)
Rich

 

[greg]

Rich Grise wrote:

Since holes are actually nothing, they're not deflected by a magnetic
field? ;-)

Obviously it's the electrons which are actually moving,
hopping from hole to hole.

But somehow, in a p-type semiconductor, they end up
getting deflected in the *opposite* direction to what
you would expect from their charge and direction of
motion and the magnetic field direction.

That's the part for which I've yet to see an explanation
aimed at people who aren't steeped in quantum theory.

--
Greg

 

[Fred Abse]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:11:02 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:06:05 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:


Elemental hydrogen has but a single proton in its nucleus, so "protons"
is wrong.

There *is* more than one hydrogen atom in the universe.

I actually own several of them.

It's a moot point as to whether they own you ;-)

--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
(Stephen Leacock)