Re-winding solenoids.

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 10/16/2011 11:08 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote:

You didn't say this solenoid was part of a transfer switch. This
raises the stakes substantially. Transfer switches are used to switch
the mains supply to a generator when mains power is interrupted. They
serve two main purposes: to keep critical equipment functioning when
mains power is interrupted, and to deenergize the power line so that
workers can assume it is deenergized when they work on it.

Now, the transfer switch was tested to meet specifications with the
designed solenoid installed. Knowing nothing of the design or
construction of the component, you propose to roll your own and stick
it in.

Which would be fine, if no one's life depended on its working. And if
the vendor would stand behind your handicraft.

I don't think Asco could reasonably foresee that someone would use a
program that gives the number of turns for an air-core inductor to
design a part for a life-safety application.

Thank you for your information.

It changes nothing. The original solenoid develops about 12,000
ampere turns at 480 Volts. The replacement needs to develop 12,000
ampere turns at 240 volts.

If this were a customer, such as a extended care center where I
originally bought the used generator from and replaced their
original automatic transfer switch with a new compatible one I
would have (and did) take proper steps to insure everything worked
within the confines of a life-safety application.

This is a manual transfer switch with some control logic to determine
if all the power is present prior to switching. What in essence it
does is not allowing you to switch to a non-existent source.

I asked for an opinion that ampere turns was the right direction I
was headed in to change an operating solenoid from 480 to 240 volts.

I did not ask form someone such as yourself to presume that I totally
lack the ethics to endanger life with a crap modification.

Ya know, the way this transfer switch operates, I can just as easily
add the optional "manual handle" on the side of the box to switch from
normal to emergency power and throw away all the complicated stuff
inside.

As far as life safety is concerned, this is to handle a loss of power
at the shop I operate. Simple. "The power failed." Go outside, start
the generator and once it's running go back and flip the transfer
switch. When the utility power returns and stays on, flip the siwtch
aback and then go outside and turn the generator off.

This really isn't rocket science.

Jeff-1.0

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 10/16/2011 11:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Ok, that's not going to work. Most of the impedance is coming from
the DC resistance of the wire. Decreasing the gauge decreases this
resistance, but also decreases the number of turns that will fit on a
the spool to a maximum OD of 1.5". This isn't working. I give up for
tonite.

Well as long as your bitching at me for leaving something out....

The original coil is being fed through a bridge rectifier (mentioned
elsewhere in the thread). So the AC impedance is less of an issue.

Using the proline scripting, I came up with 80 mH using #28 AWG wire,
1988 turns and 1.54" outside diameter with 42.63 ohms.

I come up with 11192 ampere turns. I've got some wiggle room to
increase the bobbin size a bit. So rest well good sir, we are at
a point that is "close enough" to wind up a prototype and see if
works properly.

If it does, then it gets potted in Epoxy to match the original
physical dimensions and we call it a success.

Jeff-1.0

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 02:51:21 -0500, Jeffrey Angus <grendelair@aim.com>
wrote:

On 10/16/2011 11:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Ok, that's not going to work. Most of the impedance is coming from
the DC resistance of the wire. Decreasing the gauge decreases this
resistance, but also decreases the number of turns that will fit on a
the spool to a maximum OD of 1.5". This isn't working. I give up for
tonite.

Well as long as your bitching at me for leaving something out....

I always find something to complain about. It's part of my standard
usenet protocol. Nothing personal.

The original coil is being fed through a bridge rectifier (mentioned
elsewhere in the thread). So the AC impedance is less of an issue.

Bad news. 60Hz is still AC. The AC current, is determined by the AC
impedance also known as Z. Fortunately, most of it comes from the
resistance of the wires, making the coil specs easier to guess.

Using the proline scripting, I came up with 80 mH using #28 AWG wire,
1988 turns and 1.54" outside diameter with 42.63 ohms.

You cheated by going over the OD by 0.04". Assuming you can pack the
windings in as tight as the original, that shouldn't be a problem. I'm
not all that confident you can do it. Use a mandrel and a slow
turning lathe.

I come up with 11192 ampere turns. I've got some wiggle room to
increase the bobbin size a bit. So rest well good sir, we are at
a point that is "close enough" to wind up a prototype and see if
works properly.

It will probably work. I just hate to say that as I'm sure you'll
blame me when it explodes and sprays coil bobbin parts all over the
shop. It might help to immolate an old solenoid on the barbeque as a
burnt offering to the god of electric power for a favorable outcome.

If it does, then it gets potted in Epoxy to match the original
physical dimensions and we call it a success.

Right. Hide the evidence. Be sure to embalm the windings in yellow
Kapton (Polyimide) high temp tape before potting. I learned that the
hard way after trying to pot some radios. The epoxy shrinks as it
hardens, which likes to tear wires away from their attachment points.
The tape provides an easy air space for the epoxy to shrink.





--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 10/17/2011 10:37 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I always find something to complain about. It's part of my standard
usenet protocol. Nothing personal.

Well of course, I've known you long enough now to fully understand
the protocol. ;-)

You cheated by going over the OD by 0.04". Assuming you can pack the
windings in as tight as the original, that shouldn't be a problem. I'm
not all that confident you can do it. Use a mandrel and a slow
turning lathe.

The physical demisions after the epoxy potting are 1.55, instead of
my guess of 1.375), and 1.66 rather than my also guess of of 1.50.

It will probably work. I just hate to say that as I'm sure you'll
blame me when it explodes and sprays coil bobbin parts all over the
shop.

Isn't that also standard Usenet protocol?

Right. Hide the evidence. Be sure to embalm the windings in yellow
Kapton (Polyimide) high temp tape before potting.

I still have several rolls here at the shop from when I'd rewind
surplus wall warts for laughs.

Jeff-1.0
the other other one.

Having a vacuum pot and temperature chamber helps make stuff
"right" when you do it. I kind of prefer a polyurethane for
potting myself.

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:02:42 -0500, Jeffrey Angus <grendelair@aim.com>
wrote:

Isn't that also standard Usenet protocol?

Yes. The first step to analyzing a failure is to blame someone.

Having a vacuum pot and temperature chamber helps make stuff
"right" when you do it. I kind of prefer a polyurethane for
potting myself.

I like to use Bondo, because it doesn't shrink.

Way back in the days when I still received a regular paycheck, the
company had a "modular products" division that sold data converters
into such non-critical applications like missiles and air traffic
control systems. Instead of just dumping the electronics into a
potting shell and filling it with epoxy, they would first fill it
almost to the pour hole with sand and then top it off with epoxy. The
thermal conductivity of epoxy is slightly better than lousy. The sand
gives an even temperature distribution, protects against mechanical
shock, and is cheaper than epoxy. It also makes post-potting repair
somewhat possible. Filling the bobbin with sand before potting isn't
going to do anything useful for your solenoid, but I thought I would
mention it for future applications.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Dave M]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 02:51:21 -0500, Jeffrey Angus <grendelair@aim.com
wrote:

On 10/16/2011 11:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Ok, that's not going to work. Most of the impedance is coming from
the DC resistance of the wire. Decreasing the gauge decreases this
resistance, but also decreases the number of turns that will fit on
a the spool to a maximum OD of 1.5". This isn't working. I give
up for tonite.

Well as long as your bitching at me for leaving something out....

I always find something to complain about. It's part of my standard
usenet protocol. Nothing personal.

The original coil is being fed through a bridge rectifier (mentioned
elsewhere in the thread). So the AC impedance is less of an issue.

Bad news. 60Hz is still AC. The AC current, is determined by the AC
impedance also known as Z. Fortunately, most of it comes from the
resistance of the wires, making the coil specs easier to guess.

Using the proline scripting, I came up with 80 mH using #28 AWG wire,
1988 turns and 1.54" outside diameter with 42.63 ohms.

You cheated by going over the OD by 0.04". Assuming you can pack the
windings in as tight as the original, that shouldn't be a problem. I'm
not all that confident you can do it. Use a mandrel and a slow
turning lathe.

I come up with 11192 ampere turns. I've got some wiggle room to
increase the bobbin size a bit. So rest well good sir, we are at
a point that is "close enough" to wind up a prototype and see if
works properly.

It will probably work. I just hate to say that as I'm sure you'll
blame me when it explodes and sprays coil bobbin parts all over the
shop. It might help to immolate an old solenoid on the barbeque as a
burnt offering to the god of electric power for a favorable outcome.

If it does, then it gets potted in Epoxy to match the original
physical dimensions and we call it a success.

Right. Hide the evidence. Be sure to embalm the windings in yellow
Kapton (Polyimide) high temp tape before potting. I learned that the
hard way after trying to pot some radios. The epoxy shrinks as it
hardens, which likes to tear wires away from their attachment points.
The tape provides an easy air space for the epoxy to shrink.

You said in an earlier post that the current in the coil needs to be around
5 amps, and you propose to use 28 AWG wire to wind it.
AWG 28 wire has a rated ampacity for chassis wiring (inside a bundle,
similar to your solenoid coil), is only 1.4 amps. I doubt that your coil
would last very long with that amount of current.
More investigation is necessary. Might be less painful to spring for the
proper solenoid from the manufacturer.
--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net

 

[Dave M]

Dave M wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 02:51:21 -0500, Jeffrey Angus
grendelair@aim.com> wrote:

On 10/16/2011 11:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Ok, that's not going to work. Most of the impedance is coming from
the DC resistance of the wire. Decreasing the gauge decreases this
resistance, but also decreases the number of turns that will fit on
a the spool to a maximum OD of 1.5". This isn't working. I give
up for tonite.

Well as long as your bitching at me for leaving something out....

I always find something to complain about. It's part of my standard
usenet protocol. Nothing personal.

The original coil is being fed through a bridge rectifier (mentioned
elsewhere in the thread). So the AC impedance is less of an issue.

Bad news. 60Hz is still AC. The AC current, is determined by the AC
impedance also known as Z. Fortunately, most of it comes from the
resistance of the wires, making the coil specs easier to guess.

Using the proline scripting, I came up with 80 mH using #28 AWG
wire, 1988 turns and 1.54" outside diameter with 42.63 ohms.

You cheated by going over the OD by 0.04". Assuming you can pack the
windings in as tight as the original, that shouldn't be a problem.
I'm not all that confident you can do it. Use a mandrel and a slow
turning lathe.

I come up with 11192 ampere turns. I've got some wiggle room to
increase the bobbin size a bit. So rest well good sir, we are at
a point that is "close enough" to wind up a prototype and see if
works properly.

It will probably work. I just hate to say that as I'm sure you'll
blame me when it explodes and sprays coil bobbin parts all over the
shop. It might help to immolate an old solenoid on the barbeque as a
burnt offering to the god of electric power for a favorable outcome.

If it does, then it gets potted in Epoxy to match the original
physical dimensions and we call it a success.

Right. Hide the evidence. Be sure to embalm the windings in yellow
Kapton (Polyimide) high temp tape before potting. I learned that the
hard way after trying to pot some radios. The epoxy shrinks as it
hardens, which likes to tear wires away from their attachment points.
The tape provides an easy air space for the epoxy to shrink.

You said in an earlier post that the current in the coil needs to be
around 5 amps, and you propose to use 28 AWG wire to wind it.
AWG 28 wire has a rated ampacity for chassis wiring (inside a bundle,
similar to your solenoid coil), is only 1.4 amps. I doubt that your
coil would last very long with that amount of current.
More investigation is necessary. Might be less painful to spring for
the proper solenoid from the manufacturer.

OOps.. I got that wrong.. That figure was the capacity in free air... The
capacity of AWG28 wire in an enclosed space is 0.83 amps.

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 10/17/2011 2:21 PM, Dave M wrote:

You said in an earlier post that the current in the coil needs to be
around 5 amps, and you propose to use 28 AWG wire to wind it.
AWG 28 wire has a rated ampacity for chassis wiring (inside a bundle,
similar to your solenoid coil), is only 1.4 amps. I doubt that your
coil would last very long with that amount of current.
More investigation is necessary. Might be less painful to spring for
the proper solenoid from the manufacturer.

OOps.. I got that wrong.. That figure was the capacity in free air... The
capacity of AWG28 wire in an enclosed space is 0.83 amps.

I'm sure that it is. The original coil at 480 volts draws 5.2 amps
and is wounnd with #30 AWG.

Guess I need to repeat this. It is PULSED not STEADY operation.

Jeff-1.0

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

 

[Jamie]

Jeffrey Angus wrote:

On 10/16/2011 11:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Ok, that's not going to work. Most of the impedance is coming from
the DC resistance of the wire. Decreasing the gauge decreases this
resistance, but also decreases the number of turns that will fit on a
the spool to a maximum OD of 1.5". This isn't working. I give up for
tonite.


Well as long as your bitching at me for leaving something out....

The original coil is being fed through a bridge rectifier (mentioned
elsewhere in the thread). So the AC impedance is less of an issue.

Using the proline scripting, I came up with 80 mH using #28 AWG wire,
1988 turns and 1.54" outside diameter with 42.63 ohms.

I come up with 11192 ampere turns. I've got some wiggle room to
increase the bobbin size a bit. So rest well good sir, we are at
a point that is "close enough" to wind up a prototype and see if
works properly.

If it does, then it gets potted in Epoxy to match the original
physical dimensions and we call it a success.

Jeff-1.0

You know, at this point, you pretty much don't care I would assume how

ever, have you thought about constructing a voltage double rectifier
instead of that bridge rectifier to drive that coil?





+-------+-------++
| | |
+ | |
D1 - | |
^ | |
| | +
C1 + + C|
240 AC in | --- C| 480 Solenoid
|| | ---C2 C|
+---+-||+------+ + |
|| + | +
| | |
- | |
D2 ^ | |
240 AC in + | |
| + |
+-------------+-------++-------+
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)


I suppose if you had to motor caps around you could use those, the
large ones of course.

What ever.
Jamie

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:05:15 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

You know, at this point, you pretty much don't care I would assume how
ever, have you thought about constructing a voltage double rectifier
instead of that bridge rectifier to drive that coil?





+-------+-------++
| | |
+ | |
D1 - | |
^ | |
| | +
C1 + + C|
240 AC in | --- C| 480 Solenoid
|| | ---C2 C|
+---+-||+------+ + |
|| + | +
| | |
- | |
D2 ^ | |
240 AC in + | |
| + |
+-------------+-------++-------+
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)


I suppose if you had to motor caps around you could use those, the
large ones of course.

What ever.
Jamie

Good idea. The caps will need to be charged by the 240VAC line
voltage in a few cycles in order to get any kind of usable response
time for pulsed operation. That means the caps are going to be rather
big. A rough guess would be:

AC impedance of the coil is roughly:
480VAC / 5A = 96 ohms
To get C2 up to about 90% of full charge in 2 cycles, the capacitive
reactance of C1 would need to be about:
Xc = 96 * 0.1 = 9.6 ohms
At 60Hz, that's 276 uF. 330uf 600VDC caps should work. I'm not very
confident with my crude approximations. Therefore, I would feed the
model to LTSpice and see what it's really going to do.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 10/18/2011 11:47 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

At 60Hz, that's 276 uF. 330uf 600VDC caps should work. I'm not very
confident with my crude approximations. Therefore, I would feed the
model to LTSpice and see what it's really going to do.

You're charging to the peak values, not RMS, so it's going to be 680
volts at a minimum, and probably more like 750 for some margin of
safety.

Caps of that size and rating will end up costing as much as the coil
itself.

Jeff



--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 10/17/2011 6:05 PM, Jamie wrote:

You know, at this point, you pretty much don't care

You're right. I don't. Because my original question was
in regards to ampere turns and rewinding a solenoid for
a different operating voltage.

Because so far, with one notable exception, everyone has
insisted on coming up with some Rube Goldberg solution or
accusing me of trying to murder widows and orphans.

Jeff-1.0

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

 

[spamtrap1888]

On Oct 19, 5:09 am, Jeffrey Angus <grendel...@aim.com> wrote:

On 10/17/2011 6:05 PM, Jamie wrote:



You know, at this point, you pretty much don't care

You're right. I don't. Because my original question was
in regards to ampere turns and rewinding a solenoid for
a different operating voltage.

I wish that that had been your original question, which was a rambling
stream of consciousness. Your reference to a program for calculating
aircore inductors made me think you were using "solenoid" in the sense
of "helical coil."

Because so far, with one notable exception, everyone has
insisted on coming up with some Rube Goldberg solution or
accusing me of trying to murder widows and orphans.

Your desire to save $380 in the belief that ASCO was screwing its
customers with jacked-up prices seemed a bit unreasonable, the more so
when you revealed the true application for the solenoid actuator.

But your juryrig would merely produce widows and orphans, not kill
them. Only the lineman trying to restore power would be killed if your
Rube Goldberg solution failed to work.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

spamtrap1888 wrote:

Your desire to save $380 in the belief that ASCO was screwing its
customers with jacked-up prices seemed a bit unreasonable, the more so
when you revealed the true application for the solenoid actuator.

But your juryrig would merely produce widows and orphans, not kill
them. Only the lineman trying to restore power would be killed if your
Rube Goldberg solution failed to work.

Can't follow a thread, can you? It's for his workshop.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 10/19/2011 10:52 AM, spamtrap1888 wrote:

But your juryrig would merely produce widows and orphans, not kill
them. Only the lineman trying to restore power would be killed if your
Rube Goldberg solution failed to work.

Since you seem to be so good at divination....Pray tell me just
exactly how a three-pole double throw transfer switch can connect
the emergency power to the line rather than the load.

The ONLY thing this switch can do if the solenoid fails is to NOT
actuate the switch from one position the other.

But I'm sure you have a reasonable explanation on how that can
not be the case here.

Jeff-1.0


--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

 

[Jamie]

spamtrap1888 wrote:

On Oct 19, 5:09 am, Jeffrey Angus <grendel...@aim.com> wrote:

On 10/17/2011 6:05 PM, Jamie wrote:




You know, at this point, you pretty much don't care

You're right. I don't. Because my original question was
in regards to ampere turns and rewinding a solenoid for
a different operating voltage.


I wish that that had been your original question, which was a rambling
stream of consciousness. Your reference to a program for calculating
aircore inductors made me think you were using "solenoid" in the sense
of "helical coil."


Because so far, with one notable exception, everyone has
insisted on coming up with some Rube Goldberg solution or
accusing me of trying to murder widows and orphans.



Your desire to save $380 in the belief that ASCO was screwing its
customers with jacked-up prices seemed a bit unreasonable, the more so
when you revealed the true application for the solenoid actuator.

But your juryrig would merely produce widows and orphans, not kill
them. Only the lineman trying to restore power would be killed if your
Rube Goldberg solution failed to work.
I must say, you are an idiot!

How is the device itself any less dangerous than using an alternate to
operate it?

Jamie

 

[Jamie]

spamtrap1888 wrote:

On Oct 19, 3:14 pm, Jamie
jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:

spamtrap1888 wrote:

On Oct 19, 5:09 am, Jeffrey Angus <grendel...@aim.com> wrote:

On 10/17/2011 6:05 PM, Jamie wrote:

You know, at this point, you pretty much don't care

You're right. I don't. Because my original question was
in regards to ampere turns and rewinding a solenoid for
a different operating voltage.

I wish that that had been your original question, which was a rambling
stream of consciousness. Your reference to a program for calculating
aircore inductors made me think you were using "solenoid" in the sense
of "helical coil."

Because so far, with one notable exception, everyone has
insisted on coming up with some Rube Goldberg solution or
accusing me of trying to murder widows and orphans.

Your desire to save $380 in the belief that ASCO was screwing its
customers with jacked-up prices seemed a bit unreasonable, the more so
when you revealed the true application for the solenoid actuator.

But your juryrig would merely produce widows and orphans, not kill
them. Only the lineman trying to restore power would be killed if your
Rube Goldberg solution failed to work.

I must say, you are an idiot!

How is the device itself any less dangerous than using an alternate to
operate it?

Jamie


If the alternate does not operate sufficiently like the original.

If he could explain how the actuator works and what the important
parameters were, we could speculate as to all the possible failure
modes.
You can speculate all you want. You sound like an attorney looking for

work or closely related to one.

If you read the blog, you would see what he is using if for, and if
he really wants you to know, I am sure he'll refresh your memory.

Jamie

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 10/19/2011 8:39 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote:

I see that only the ASCO 4000 and 7000 series are closed-transition
switches, i.e. break before make, not the Series 940 -- which I had to
look up from the replacement part number you gave.

My bad, I suppose.

I suppose. The solenoid coil listed is for the series 940. It
is also used for several other series. Specifically, in my case,
the Series 386 manual transfer switch.

And in case you missed it earlier, here is the link for an eBay
auction showing picturs of the transfer switch contactor.

A similar model. 2-pole 120 VAC rather than 3-pole 480 VAC.
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/130520617745>

And if you go to the partsasco.com website and look up the replacement
part numbers for the model 300 or 386, it directs you to the coil
marked as being for the series 940.

This is the coil itself from ASCO.
<http://www.ascoparts.com/343500-063.html>

But again, you're making all sorts of asumption looking to find
fault. You've done nothing what so ever to answer the question
on rewinding a solenoid to operate at 240 volts rather than 480.

Jeff-1.0

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 10/19/2011 9:38 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote:

From his first post, the guy did not appear to understand
much of anything. I hoped he at least would not kill anyone.

Really? Explain how you came to that conclusion.

I started with known measured numbers. Worked backwards with
a calculator to get the unknown. From there I went forward
towards what I thought was correct.

Then asked if what I was doing sounded right. I.e. basing the
requirements on ampere turns.

I even went so far as to include the calculator I used to
determine the number turns based on the physical size, DC
resistance and measured inductance.

So, and unfortunately VERY typical of Usenet, I've had to put
up with unfounded personal attacks and a whole plethora of
"How you should do anything except what you want to."

Jeff-1.0

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

 

[spamtrap1888]

On Oct 19, 2:47 pm, Jeffrey Angus <grendel...@aim.com> wrote:

On 10/19/2011 10:52 AM, spamtrap1888 wrote:

But your juryrig would merely produce widows and orphans, not kill
them. Only the lineman trying to restore power would be killed if your
Rube Goldberg solution failed to work.

Since you seem to be so good at divination....Pray tell me just
exactly how a three-pole double throw transfer switch can connect
the emergency power to the line rather than the load.

The ONLY thing this switch can do if the solenoid fails is to NOT
actuate the switch from one position the other.

But I'm sure you have a reasonable explanation on how that can
not be the case here.

I see that only the ASCO 4000 and 7000 series are closed-transition
switches, i.e. break before make, not the Series 940 -- which I had to
look up from the replacement part number you gave.

My bad, I suppose.