Question about pic16f676

[R. Steve Walz]

Lord Garth wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message
news:3F95F5A6.394C@armory.com...
Lord Garth wrote:

BTW, does anybody have a copy of TDL BASIC which was for the Z-80
some 20 years ago? It is ROMable and only about 12k...

Thanks for the offer, can you attach it in a posting on A.B.S.E.?
-------------------
I have that stuff, I think. If you want it.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

I asked you about it last year and you didn't have the TDL version howerver,
all are accepted!!!!

Recall I sent you a BASIC that ran on a Mostek Z-80 system at that time...
BTW, my ISP is altered since then.
------------

Yup.

Its URL was posted on comp.os.cpm some times after that, and I grabbed
it precisely because you had mentioned it. I'll look later and see
if it is what you said.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[R. Steve Walz]

Anthony Fremont wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message
news:3F95F3F1.2490@armory.com...
Anthony Fremont wrote:

R. Steve Walz wrote:
Anthony Fremont wrote:

R. Steve Walz wrote:
Anthony Fremont wrote:

R. Steve Walz wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:

C'mon, folks! The first requirement was "No PIC's", and the
first 4 responses are "Use a PIC".
-------------
That's because the people who tout PICs are actually digitally
untrained and don't grasp simple digital design basics with
the
classic digital building-blocks, and they hide their ignorance
behind "PICs", when that's actually all they know how to use.

Really? That sounds allot like the Rube Goldbergs that refuse
to
use the proper device (in this case a micro) and instead set
about
building a ridiculous contraption that costs >20 times as much
as
the micro solution.
-------------------------------
He asked how to do it, he didn't say he had to. He certainly
didn't
want to produce something for sale, so what's your beef?

"they hide their ignorance behind "PICs" " I guess that's where
the
beef is.
--------------------------
Yes, I have found this to be sadly true.

Perhaps you haven't looked in all the right places, there are some
pretty sharp engineers that happen to use micros. If a PIC is the
right
tool, it's the right tool even if it does seem too easy and doesn't
use
allot of parts. ;-)
-------------------------
Yes, of course, and no, I'm not talking about engineers. There are
a bunch of hobbyists who have so far avoided learning more than just
about that one little trick, however.

Maybe, but using micros has made a world of difference for me. I can
now get things to work that were only pipedreams in the past.
--------------------------

Sure, but now imagine knowing BOTH controllers AND REAl electronics!

You'd think that the "digitally trained" would have the
ability to work with a micro, after all it's mostly a
collection of
logic gates.
----------------
Do you resent his newbie status THAT BADLY?? Why? This is
s.e.basics!! Or are you stupid enough to imagine that *I'm* some
newbie, and if so, you REALLY don't know ME!!

Newbie status, moi? Hardly Maybe new to this group I guess, but
certainly not new to the hobby.

Or are they really just hiding their own ignorance of
complex digital logic by slamming micros every time they are
mentioned?
------------------------------------
You're a young foolish one. You have NO idea who *I* am, do you?

No, but from that comment I'm guessing your some kind of god?
-------------------------------------
Physicist-engineer, 12 years on the Net, renown ftpsite/website.

12 years on the net, wow. You may have beat me by a year there.
I've
seen your web site, you should divide it up into what's yours and
what's
from others.
-----------------
It's a resource, and the few that have complained I have told to
send me their art with their "beloved's" attribution on it, and none
but one EVER did. When you want to squawk about art *I* can reproduce
in ten minutes and put MY name on it, and tell them that's what I'll
do if they want to harrass me, they all give up. Most of them have
copied these same schematics from derivative work elsewhere or from
databooks, and *I* KNOW it!

hmm....
-------------

Yup, I've seen them.

It would be easier to see your contribution to the world.
----------------
I charge for most of MY contribution to the world, and my website
is just a free hobbyists' resource.

We all have to eat. I charge for my work as well, but I don't mind
throwing a few bones.
---------------------------

My ftp/website is what I do for free, and I offer a few little drawings
that are original, if I can't find them elsewhere. I don't believe in
duplicating human effort for no reason.

As for me, >20 years professional (paid ;-) software development
including mainframe low-level OS stuff along with 15 years of
PC/network
guruing, and >25 years generally tinkering with electronics and
micros.
Only been a HAM for about 14 years though. I set up my first
production
Linux server in the spring of 1995.
---------------------
I figured you had SOME experience.

A wee bit. Every thing I learn only serves to make me more aware of how
much I don't know.

You may kiss my ass now.

I think I'll pass if you don't mind.
----------------------
Why did I know that!? ;-


I just hate to see newbies dissed for wanting to know how we got
here, and just being handed a "cure-all" and being told to shut
up.

Please show me where I did anything like that. It happens that
the
OP's project is a glove fit for a micro, but I guess you know
that
already. What with being a legend and all.
---------------------------------
Of course it is, but you answer people's questions here, this is
s.e.basics afterall. We teach electronics.

Wouldn't part of that be to mention the fact that a micro WAS a
viable
solution to his problem, and probably the best one at that?
-------------
Yes, but on an EL:ECTRONICS ng, that's a bit like publishing the same
PIC schematic for everything with a notation that the code varies!!

That's not far from the truth. It's unavoidable when the solution
consists of only one active device.
----------------------

Sure.

After
reading some of your other posts in this thread, I can see where
you're
coming from. However, you wouldn't recommend that he solve the
problem
with tubes just to gain a full appreciation of electronic theory.
---------------------------
I recommend at least one tube excercise to everyone in electronics.

I never built anything from scratch using tubes, but I've poked around
some older equipment and read some about them. They actually seem like
they'd have been fun to tinker with as they have some unusual
properties.
------------------

Indeed.

I've used lots of uP's and uC's, from Z80's and 8085's to 8051
cores, and even Z8's and 6502's once upon a time, BUT!: I've
also
often designed a permanent solution for a dedicated problem many
hundreds of times with discrete SSI and MSI logic, and I'd hate
to
think that people will stop knowing what the perfect
static/dynamic
solution to a problem is, without just emulating a solution with
a
processor that just happens to run fast enough so you can't tell
that it is fudging.

Someone should tell all those DSP doofs that, they're wasting
allot
of time aren't they?
-----------------
Don't be silly, but DSPs are out of the purvey of s.e.basics, let
us
all admit.

Perhaps they are for now, but will it always be that way?
-------------------------------
Basics, is basics. It's hard to tell people even what a DSP does
without the fundamentals behind them.


BTW, my first micro was an 1802, but that was a while
ago. I don't think there's any need to feel threatened by a PIC
chip. There will likely always be a place for gates, discretes,
and
even vacuum tubes. If you can't tell "it's fudging", then it
really
doesn't matter does it? ;-)
---------------------------
If it has encouraged people to fail to learn what they will need
to
design the next generation of processors, yes.

Now that's really stretching it. You seem to think that using
micros is
creating some kind of perpetual dumbing down in electronics.
------------------
No, not for engineers, but for hobbyists, yes.

I think
the real problem is that someone can obtain a degree having never
held a
soldering iron. Now that should worry you.
-----------------
Indeed it does, in my physics labs we had Brahmin youth from India,
who, as members of that caste had felt dirtied by contact with tools
and had never used them, physics was taught them on a chalk board in
India!! This was partly the caste system and partly a lack of
equipment
of course. You should see them in lab and how they destroy equipment
using the wrong tool for everything. Only Japanese girls are worse off
tool-wise!

Man oh man.

Why else would they ignore his first requirement!??

Why do you bother using logic chips? Wouldn't it be more
craftsman-like to build your logic from discretes?
--------------------
I have done that numerous times, just so we didn't have to do
voltage level-shifting constantly. But that's not the point,
even
that has its uses. The point is what his QUESTION was, and that
he
wanted primarily to KNOW HOW SUCH A THING IS DONE!!!

Right. In 1950 it would have been done with tubes, in the 70's
it
would have been done with a bunch of 74xx logic, now it's done
with
a micro 99% of the time. That's if
cost/simplicity/accuracy/reliability/advancement account for
anything. I'm not saying a PIC is right for every job, but it's
at
least as good as duct tape when it comes to attaching the real
world
to some electronics.
---------------------------
Whether a multiplexer/decoder/counter is made of tubes,
transistors,
SSI, or MSI, it is the principle of the
multiplexer/decoder/counter
from primary Boolean that must be taught, instead of merely how to
do
something similar in code with a clocked controller.

I don't disagree with that. I don't think it precludes using
something
more advanced to solve a problem, even if it doesn't align with your
planned curriculum. This is simply not a classroom, it's a public
forum
and everyone is on there own page.
-----------------------------------
Sure, but standards have to come in as standards can, and by those
willing and capable of defending them.

I tend to prefer my standards from places like ANSI, ISO, SAE, defacto
etc.... ;-) Are you sure you're not confusing standards with personal
opinions? ;-)
-------------------------

A comedian, eh?
I was using the NON-technical meaning of "standards". ;->

If you don't like micros, no
problem, but don't assume that you are correct in your opinions
and
attempt to force them upon the world.
--------------------------
You're assuming I don't like micros, and to anyone who knows me
you
look quite stupid.

Perhaps you should make yourself a bit more clear then when
referring to the "digitally untrained". I guess some of us can't
hear as well whilst hiding our ineptitude behind our PIC chips.
-------------------------------
Don't be facetious, if you know what you're doing you are trying
on
the wrong pair of shoes here.

I'm not "trying on" any "shoes", but if I shouldn't be here if I'm
not a
newbie, then why are you allowed? I like to try to help people too,
I
don't see why that should be a problem.
--------------------------
Okay, you speak your piece of poop, and I'll speak mine. I'm sure we
both have things to say, just note that I'm a gonna crab at you at
times, as I did THIS time, as a way of being illustrative of my point.

Oh, don't worry, my skin thickened up a long time ago. ;-) Be
forewarned, when poked I tend to poke back. ;-D

Nothing personal.

Of course not, it's usenet. ;-)

michael
-----------

Absolutely. Actually I DO think it's personal, and even serious,
but just that personal for me is NOT the same as being a problem.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public