Pumped Storage, Consumer Load Leveling & Base Load Power

On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 21:51:33 +0100, tuinkabouter
<dachthetniet@net.invalid> wrote:

On 12/17/2012 12:49 AM, krw@att.bizzz wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 16:08:30 -0500, default wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 10:48:24 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote:

Until last week I had no idea my 5
year old LCD monitor uses 150 watts, no better than a CRT. I'll start
turning it off when I check dinner.

That just doesn't sound believable. Power supply malfunction? error
reading? high power factor?

Get a "Kill-A-Watt" and measure the real deal. At 150W, a monitor
should be quite warm to the touch. My 5YO 42" plasma TV draws 500W,
and yes, it is quite warm. The new 42" plasma uses 150W, so it isn't
so much a space heater.

And the you turn up your electric heater?


Humans are adaptable, after all...

I could almost get my head around the idea of a stereo system with
some warm cheerful glowing 807's in the output stages - for winter
listening.

The new organic LED's will blow away plasma TV's if/when they get the
bugs out.

 

[Mahipal]

On Dec 16, 4:23 pm, default wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 10:13:33 -0500, k...@att.bizzz wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 09:04:53 -0500, default wrote:

On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 13:17:18 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
Bret_E_Cah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The consumer needs to do some of the work.

The consumer bears all of the cost no matter what.

Depends on the consumer. Paris Hilton said she wouldn't bother with
such a scheme while a poor consumer might be more actively involved in
using wind or solar power.

It's kind of like the post office always pricing stamps a couple
pennies off a multiple of nickels. The poor might find time to bother
with exact change.

What you want is
for consumers to modify their behavior.

What do you think Jefferson was advocating with the DoI?

To keep the same behaviour and continue with the *ancien regime*?

They already do with smart
power meters and load leveling pricing in many areas of the country.

They need to do the pricing in real time as the wind can drop in
minutes.

It also needs to be user friendly.

Carry the idea further. Taxing traffic during rush hours.

Various ways to accomplish that have already been proposed.

Food to
overweight people.

They've been taxing tobacco and rum for decades or centuries.
Government has a $200 billion / year health cost stake in reducing
obesity. Why not go after salty biofuel feed stock where all trace of
any DNA has been removed?

Water usage. Maybe a barbeque tax on smoggy
days...

Non educational tweaking.

Makes a lot more sense to control population growth IMO.

You think getting politicians to start adopting anti baby platforms
isn't modifying behaviour?

Bret Cahill

The idea of instantaneous pricing of power in real time has already
been proposed as a design goal of the ultimate smart grid...

They need to provide real time updates of the price.  This doesn't
mean the consumer would always be checking prices.  Certain loads
would be programmed to warn the homeowner and/or automatically shut
down when the price was too high.

True.  what I would like to see is a mandate that smart wireless power
meters be required to provide indoor displays - or at least make it a
reasonably priced option, or software so one's wifi or bluetooth
computer devices can tap into the data.

I had the Black and Decker version- but it relies on batteries and
eventually water entered the battery compartment and killed it.  But
while it was working it was great for seeing what activities used
power - and would calculate the running average cost with something
like two or three tiers of time of day usage levels for power priced
that way.  End of the month power bill was never a surprise.

Before that  I went out each morning and logged the numbers off the
meter, but real time is much better.

In the house we've just moved out of, I installed a nest thermostat,
mainly so I could run the temperature low, then up it when it gets
cold (insurance for the pipes).  Their app (web site) monitors energy
usage and you can see a daily history.  Obviously this isn't perfect
because it's only the heat pump being monitored (it's the only real
variable though) and it can't know the exchange rate between hours and
watthours, or even watthours and dollars.  I'm really not sure what it
shows, actually, since I've had "no usage" (the house has been idling
at 63-64F and I have it set to 57F).  It should be enough to take the
"surprise" off the power bill.  I am rarely surprised about the
electric bill, though (water is a different kettle-o-fish).

We were going through a years long drought and having a well for water
I got concerned about running it dry.  One small change I made was to
install a low water shower head and another to use a large stainless
steel pot to heat water for dishwashing - since I invariably end up
dumping the dishwater when it cools down and filling up the sink again
with hot water.  This way I just heat/re-heat the water in the pot and
wash dishes in it.

The intent was to save water, but the power bill fell by a good 20%.
I added a switch to the water heater and keep it off unless I intend
to shower that knocked a further 10% off.  My usage is ~200 KWH a
month these days.  I was down around $20 a month until they raised the
rates.  I've got a high efficiency mini-split heat pump for HVAC and a
small house...

Look Anonymous you... they can gauge your energy usage. Energy equals
Money. The rate they charge you is reverse computed -- seriously...
engineered, but you did not never ever not even now hear that from me
see -- from the profit margins they hope to exceed. Rates are
determined from per house, not from just per household. Per this Xmas
year. Who knows what 2013 brings or will even exist. Keep your fingers
crossed behind your anonymous wide ass back. Shhh... When your dollars
20 went below their ridiculously sensitive feedback measures, well it
was then their developed in outsourced to India SW triggered an alert
-- just in case, which they know they do, they need or will need a
deniable instantly marketable scapegoat for CNN to ZNN, circa NCIS,
media purposes -- for cause. It's always a CPU error ultimatum.

We're neither guilty nor evil -- only you are! Deal with it. Pay bill
here, online or otherwise.

Enjo... Cheers!
--
Mahipal, pronounced as "My Pal" or "Maple" and means...

http://mahipal7638.wordpress.com/meforce/

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

tuinkabouter wrote:

On 12/17/2012 12:49 AM, krw@att.bizzz wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 16:08:30 -0500, default wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 10:48:24 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote:

Until last week I had no idea my 5
year old LCD monitor uses 150 watts, no better than a CRT. I'll start
turning it off when I check dinner.

That just doesn't sound believable. Power supply malfunction? error
reading? high power factor?

Get a "Kill-A-Watt" and measure the real deal. At 150W, a monitor
should be quite warm to the touch. My 5YO 42" plasma TV draws 500W,
and yes, it is quite warm. The new 42" plasma uses 150W, so it isn't
so much a space heater.

And the you turn up your electric heater?

No, you turn down the A/C

 

On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:25:52 -0800 (PST), Mahipal
<mahipal7638@gmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 16, 4:23 pm, default wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 10:13:33 -0500, k...@att.bizzz wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 09:04:53 -0500, default wrote:

On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 13:17:18 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
Bret_E_Cah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The consumer needs to do some of the work.

The consumer bears all of the cost no matter what.

Depends on the consumer. Paris Hilton said she wouldn't bother with
such a scheme while a poor consumer might be more actively involved in
using wind or solar power.

It's kind of like the post office always pricing stamps a couple
pennies off a multiple of nickels. The poor might find time to bother
with exact change.

What you want is
for consumers to modify their behavior.

What do you think Jefferson was advocating with the DoI?

To keep the same behaviour and continue with the *ancien regime*?

They already do with smart
power meters and load leveling pricing in many areas of the country.

They need to do the pricing in real time as the wind can drop in
minutes.

It also needs to be user friendly.

Carry the idea further. Taxing traffic during rush hours.

Various ways to accomplish that have already been proposed.

Food to
overweight people.

They've been taxing tobacco and rum for decades or centuries.
Government has a $200 billion / year health cost stake in reducing
obesity. Why not go after salty biofuel feed stock where all trace of
any DNA has been removed?

Water usage. Maybe a barbeque tax on smoggy
days...

Non educational tweaking.

Makes a lot more sense to control population growth IMO.

You think getting politicians to start adopting anti baby platforms
isn't modifying behaviour?

Bret Cahill

The idea of instantaneous pricing of power in real time has already
been proposed as a design goal of the ultimate smart grid...

They need to provide real time updates of the price.  This doesn't
mean the consumer would always be checking prices.  Certain loads
would be programmed to warn the homeowner and/or automatically shut
down when the price was too high.

True.  what I would like to see is a mandate that smart wireless power
meters be required to provide indoor displays - or at least make it a
reasonably priced option, or software so one's wifi or bluetooth
computer devices can tap into the data.

I had the Black and Decker version- but it relies on batteries and
eventually water entered the battery compartment and killed it.  But
while it was working it was great for seeing what activities used
power - and would calculate the running average cost with something
like two or three tiers of time of day usage levels for power priced
that way.  End of the month power bill was never a surprise.

Before that  I went out each morning and logged the numbers off the
meter, but real time is much better.

In the house we've just moved out of, I installed a nest thermostat,
mainly so I could run the temperature low, then up it when it gets
cold (insurance for the pipes).  Their app (web site) monitors energy
usage and you can see a daily history.  Obviously this isn't perfect
because it's only the heat pump being monitored (it's the only real
variable though) and it can't know the exchange rate between hours and
watthours, or even watthours and dollars.  I'm really not sure what it
shows, actually, since I've had "no usage" (the house has been idling
at 63-64F and I have it set to 57F).  It should be enough to take the
"surprise" off the power bill.  I am rarely surprised about the
electric bill, though (water is a different kettle-o-fish).

We were going through a years long drought and having a well for water
I got concerned about running it dry.  One small change I made was to
install a low water shower head and another to use a large stainless
steel pot to heat water for dishwashing - since I invariably end up
dumping the dishwater when it cools down and filling up the sink again
with hot water.  This way I just heat/re-heat the water in the pot and
wash dishes in it.

The intent was to save water, but the power bill fell by a good 20%.
I added a switch to the water heater and keep it off unless I intend
to shower that knocked a further 10% off.  My usage is ~200 KWH a
month these days.  I was down around $20 a month until they raised the
rates.  I've got a high efficiency mini-split heat pump for HVAC and a
small house...

Look Anonymous you... they can gauge your energy usage. Energy equals
Money. The rate they charge you is reverse computed -- seriously...
engineered, but you did not never ever not even now hear that from me
see -- from the profit margins they hope to exceed. Rates are
determined from per house, not from just per household. Per this Xmas
year. Who knows what 2013 brings or will even exist. Keep your fingers
crossed behind your anonymous wide ass back. Shhh... When your dollars
20 went below their ridiculously sensitive feedback measures, well it
was then their developed in outsourced to India SW triggered an alert
-- just in case, which they know they do, they need or will need a
deniable instantly marketable scapegoat for CNN to ZNN, circa NCIS,
media purposes -- for cause. It's always a CPU error ultimatum.

We're neither guilty nor evil -- only you are! Deal with it. Pay bill
here, online or otherwise.

Enjo... Cheers!

BTW what are you drinking?