Pumped Storage, Consumer Load Leveling & Base Load Power

[Bret Cahill]

I googled it:

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/04/18/thought-solar-was-hard-to-permit-...

Our government at [not]work!

Use $0.50/watt solar PV to desalinate sea water and then harness the
enormous political effect of a water war to power the legislative
branch!
Governor Brown has already experimented with this approach.

Actually, baseload power is vastly overvalued -- another nail in the
coffin of nukes.

All the responsibility of load leveling shouldn't fall on the
utilities.
The consumer needs to do some of the work. Just update the
price/kW-hr on power company's web page every 30 minutes with
pricing forcasts for the next 4 hours. A 30 day clock or transmitter
on the meter integrates price over time. Let the consumer decide
if it's really worth getting gouged to heat or cool what rooms to what
temperatures. Maybe melt or freeze a tub of parafin for future
heating or cooling if the wind is blowing. Snapping up deals would
require 200 Amp + service.

The prices will need some explaining, i.e., it'll cost 15 cents more
electricity to roast a turkey if the sun doesn't come out.


Bret Cahill

 

[1treePetrifiedForestLane]

that is good.

temperatures.  Maybe melt or freeze a tub of parafin for future
heating or cooling if the wind is blowing.  Snapping up deals would
require 200 Amp + service.

The prices will need some explaining, i.e., it'll cost 15 cents more

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 10:21:45 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill <BretCahill@peoplepc.com>
wrote:

I googled it:

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/04/18/thought-solar-was-hard-to-permit-...

Our government at [not]work!

Use $0.50/watt solar PV to desalinate sea water and then harness the
enormous political effect of a water war to power the legislative
branch!
Governor Brown has already experimented with this approach.

Actually, baseload power is vastly overvalued -- another nail in the
coffin of nukes.

All the responsibility of load leveling shouldn't fall on the
utilities.
The consumer needs to do some of the work. Just update the
price/kW-hr on power company's web page every 30 minutes with
pricing forcasts for the next 4 hours. A 30 day clock or transmitter
on the meter integrates price over time. Let the consumer decide
if it's really worth getting gouged to heat or cool what rooms to what
temperatures. Maybe melt or freeze a tub of parafin for future
heating or cooling if the wind is blowing. Snapping up deals would
require 200 Amp + service.

The prices will need some explaining, i.e., it'll cost 15 cents more
electricity to roast a turkey if the sun doesn't come out.


Bret Cahill

Cheap fracked natural gas makes a lot of trendy energy ideas suddenly sound
silly.

Wanna buy some solar stock?

http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/SolarCity-shines-after-delayed-IPO-4115905.php

$103.4 million sales in 9 months, $77.9 million in losses.

Musk's real talent seems to be losing money.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

 

[Bret Cahill]

I googled it:

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/04/18/thought-solar-was-hard-to-permit-....

Our government at [not]work!

Use $0.50/watt solar PV to desalinate sea water and then harness the
enormous political effect of a water war to power the legislative
branch!
Governor Brown has already experimented with this approach.

Actually, baseload power is vastly overvalued -- another nail in the
coffin of nukes.

All the responsibility of load leveling shouldn't fall on the
utilities.
The consumer needs to do some of the work.  Just update the
price/kW-hr on power company's web page every 30 minutes with
pricing forcasts for the next 4 hours.  A 30 day clock or transmitter
on the meter integrates price over time.  Let the consumer decide
if it's really worth getting gouged to heat or cool what rooms to what
temperatures.  Maybe melt or freeze a tub of parafin for future
heating or cooling if the wind is blowing.  Snapping up deals would
require 200 Amp + service.

The prices will need some explaining, i.e., it'll cost 15 cents more
electricity to roast a turkey if the sun doesn't come out.

Bret Cahill

Cheap fracked natural gas makes a lot of trendy energy ideas suddenly sound
silly.

Gas turbines cost more than solar PV on a /watt capital basis. The PV
has less overhead as well -- no fuel costs -- but only works a few
hous/day. The GT can bring 60 MW online in minutes anytime.

There's no need to eliminate all fossil fuels. Natural gas backup is
the best.

Wanna buy some solar stock?

http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/SolarCity-shines-after-delayed...

$103.4 million sales in 9 months, $77.9 million in losses.

Musk's real talent seems to be losing money.

A lot of oil companies went under a century ago too.


Bret Cahill

 

On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 10:21:45 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The consumer needs to do some of the work.

The consumer bears all of the cost no matter what. What you want is
for consumers to modify their behavior. They already do with smart
power meters and load leveling pricing in many areas of the country.

Carry the idea further. Taxing traffic during rush hours. Food to
overweight people. Water usage. Maybe a barbeque tax on smoggy
days...

Makes a lot more sense to control population growth IMO.

 

[Bret Cahill]

The consumer needs to do some of the work.

The consumer bears all of the cost no matter what.

Depends on the consumer. Paris Hilton said she wouldn't bother with
such a scheme while a poor consumer might be more actively involved in
using wind or solar power.

It's kind of like the post office always pricing stamps a couple
pennies off a multiple of nickels. The poor might find time to bother
with exact change.

What you want is
for consumers to modify their behavior.

What do you think Jefferson was advocating with the DoI?

To keep the same behaviour and continue with the *ancien regime*?

They already do with smart
power meters and load leveling pricing in many areas of the country.

They need to do the pricing in real time as the wind can drop in
minutes.

It also needs to be user friendly.

Carry the idea further.  Taxing traffic during rush hours.

Various ways to accomplish that have already been proposed.

Food to
overweight people.

They've been taxing tobacco and rum for decades or centuries.
Government has a $200 billion / year health cost stake in reducing
obesity. Why not go after salty biofuel feed stock where all trace of
any DNA has been removed?

Water usage.  Maybe a barbeque tax on smoggy
days...

Non educational tweaking.

Makes a lot more sense to control population growth IMO.

You think getting politicians to start adopting anti baby platforms
isn't modifying behaviour?


Bret Cahill

 

[1treePetrifiedForestLane]

there are technically no "fossilized" fuels; I mean,
just say, No, thank you, Geoffery -- I have no idea whatsoever
what the category of the question is; thank you.

You think getting politicians to start adopting anti baby platforms
isn't modifying behaviour?

--Snell's law for interferometers; thank you

 

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 09:07:19 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The consumer needs to do some of the work.

The consumer bears all of the cost no matter what.

Depends on the consumer. Paris Hilton said she wouldn't bother with
such a scheme while a poor consumer might be more actively involved in
using wind or solar power.

It's kind of like the post office always pricing stamps a couple
pennies off a multiple of nickels. The poor might find time to bother
with exact change.

What you want is
for consumers to modify their behavior.

What do you think Jefferson was advocating with the DoI?

To keep the same behaviour and continue with the *ancien regime*?

They already do with smart
power meters and load leveling pricing in many areas of the country.

They need to do the pricing in real time as the wind can drop in
minutes.

It also needs to be user friendly.

Carry the idea further.  Taxing traffic during rush hours.

Various ways to accomplish that have already been proposed.

Food to
overweight people.

They've been taxing tobacco and rum for decades or centuries.
Government has a $200 billion / year health cost stake in reducing
obesity. Why not go after salty biofuel feed stock where all trace of
any DNA has been removed?

Water usage.  Maybe a barbeque tax on smoggy
days...

Non educational tweaking.

Makes a lot more sense to control population growth IMO.

You think getting politicians to start adopting anti baby platforms
isn't modifying behaviour?


Bret Cahill
The idea of instantaneous pricing of power in real time has already

been proposed as a design goal of the ultimate smart grid... The only
negative comments came from industries that already use power in non-
peak times, like re-refiners of high quality steel from scrap using
electric furnaces.

 

[Bret Cahill]

The consumer needs to do some of the work.

The consumer bears all of the cost no matter what.

Depends on the consumer.  Paris Hilton said she wouldn't bother with
such a scheme while a poor consumer might be more actively involved in
using wind or solar power.

It's kind of like the post office always pricing stamps a couple
pennies off a multiple of nickels.  The poor might find time to bother
with exact change.

What you want is
for consumers to modify their behavior.

What do you think Jefferson was advocating with the DoI?

To keep the same behaviour and continue with the *ancien regime*?

They already do with smart
power meters and load leveling pricing in many areas of the country.

They need to do the pricing in real time as the wind can drop in
minutes.

It also needs to be user friendly.

Carry the idea further. Taxing traffic during rush hours.

Various ways to accomplish that have already been proposed.

Food to
overweight people.

They've been taxing tobacco and rum for decades or centuries.
Government has a $200 billion / year health cost stake in reducing
obesity.  Why not go after salty biofuel feed stock where all trace of
any DNA has been removed?

Water usage. Maybe a barbeque tax on smoggy
days...

Non educational tweaking.

Makes a lot more sense to control population growth IMO.

You think getting politicians to start adopting anti baby platforms
isn't modifying behaviour?

Bret Cahill

The idea of instantaneous pricing of power in real time has already
been proposed as a design goal of the ultimate smart grid...

They need to provide real time updates of the price. This doesn't
mean the consumer would always be checking prices. Certain loads
would be programmed to warn the homeowner and/or automatically shut
down when the price was too high.

The only
negative comments came from industries that already use power in non-
peak times, like re-refiners of high quality steel from scrap using
electric furnaces.

That's why base load power is vastly over rated.


Bret Cahill

 

On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 13:17:18 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote:

The consumer needs to do some of the work.

The consumer bears all of the cost no matter what.

Depends on the consumer.  Paris Hilton said she wouldn't bother with
such a scheme while a poor consumer might be more actively involved in
using wind or solar power.

It's kind of like the post office always pricing stamps a couple
pennies off a multiple of nickels.  The poor might find time to bother
with exact change.

What you want is
for consumers to modify their behavior.

What do you think Jefferson was advocating with the DoI?

To keep the same behaviour and continue with the *ancien regime*?

They already do with smart
power meters and load leveling pricing in many areas of the country.

They need to do the pricing in real time as the wind can drop in
minutes.

It also needs to be user friendly.

Carry the idea further. Taxing traffic during rush hours.

Various ways to accomplish that have already been proposed.

Food to
overweight people.

They've been taxing tobacco and rum for decades or centuries.
Government has a $200 billion / year health cost stake in reducing
obesity.  Why not go after salty biofuel feed stock where all trace of
any DNA has been removed?

Water usage. Maybe a barbeque tax on smoggy
days...

Non educational tweaking.

Makes a lot more sense to control population growth IMO.

You think getting politicians to start adopting anti baby platforms
isn't modifying behaviour?

Bret Cahill

The idea of instantaneous pricing of power in real time has already
been proposed as a design goal of the ultimate smart grid...

They need to provide real time updates of the price. This doesn't
mean the consumer would always be checking prices. Certain loads
would be programmed to warn the homeowner and/or automatically shut
down when the price was too high.

True. what I would like to see is a mandate that smart wireless power
meters be required to provide indoor displays - or at least make it a
reasonably priced option, or software so one's wifi or bluetooth
computer devices can tap into the data.

I had the Black and Decker version- but it relies on batteries and
eventually water entered the battery compartment and killed it. But
while it was working it was great for seeing what activities used
power - and would calculate the running average cost with something
like two or three tiers of time of day usage levels for power priced
that way. End of the month power bill was never a surprise.

Before that I went out each morning and logged the numbers off the
meter, but real time is much better.

The only
negative comments came from industries that already use power in non-
peak times, like re-refiners of high quality steel from scrap using
electric furnaces.

That's why base load power is vastly over rated.


Bret Cahill

 

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 09:04:53 -0500, default wrote:

On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 13:17:18 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote:

The consumer needs to do some of the work.

The consumer bears all of the cost no matter what.

Depends on the consumer.  Paris Hilton said she wouldn't bother with
such a scheme while a poor consumer might be more actively involved in
using wind or solar power.

It's kind of like the post office always pricing stamps a couple
pennies off a multiple of nickels.  The poor might find time to bother
with exact change.

What you want is
for consumers to modify their behavior.

What do you think Jefferson was advocating with the DoI?

To keep the same behaviour and continue with the *ancien regime*?

They already do with smart
power meters and load leveling pricing in many areas of the country.

They need to do the pricing in real time as the wind can drop in
minutes.

It also needs to be user friendly.

Carry the idea further. Taxing traffic during rush hours.

Various ways to accomplish that have already been proposed.

Food to
overweight people.

They've been taxing tobacco and rum for decades or centuries.
Government has a $200 billion / year health cost stake in reducing
obesity.  Why not go after salty biofuel feed stock where all trace of
any DNA has been removed?

Water usage. Maybe a barbeque tax on smoggy
days...

Non educational tweaking.

Makes a lot more sense to control population growth IMO.

You think getting politicians to start adopting anti baby platforms
isn't modifying behaviour?

Bret Cahill

The idea of instantaneous pricing of power in real time has already
been proposed as a design goal of the ultimate smart grid...

They need to provide real time updates of the price. This doesn't
mean the consumer would always be checking prices. Certain loads
would be programmed to warn the homeowner and/or automatically shut
down when the price was too high.

True. what I would like to see is a mandate that smart wireless power
meters be required to provide indoor displays - or at least make it a
reasonably priced option, or software so one's wifi or bluetooth
computer devices can tap into the data.

I had the Black and Decker version- but it relies on batteries and
eventually water entered the battery compartment and killed it. But
while it was working it was great for seeing what activities used
power - and would calculate the running average cost with something
like two or three tiers of time of day usage levels for power priced
that way. End of the month power bill was never a surprise.

Before that I went out each morning and logged the numbers off the
meter, but real time is much better.

In the house we've just moved out of, I installed a nest thermostat,
mainly so I could run the temperature low, then up it when it gets
cold (insurance for the pipes). Their app (web site) monitors energy
usage and you can see a daily history. Obviously this isn't perfect
because it's only the heat pump being monitored (it's the only real
variable though) and it can't know the exchange rate between hours and
watthours, or even watthours and dollars. I'm really not sure what it
shows, actually, since I've had "no usage" (the house has been idling
at 63-64F and I have it set to 57F). It should be enough to take the
"surprise" off the power bill. I am rarely surprised about the
electric bill, though (water is a different kettle-o-fish).

 

[Bret Cahill]

The consumer needs to do some of the work.

The consumer bears all of the cost no matter what.

Depends on the consumer. Paris Hilton said she wouldn't bother with
such a scheme while a poor consumer might be more actively involved in
using wind or solar power.

It's kind of like the post office always pricing stamps a couple
pennies off a multiple of nickels. The poor might find time to bother
with exact change.

What you want is
for consumers to modify their behavior.

What do you think Jefferson was advocating with the DoI?

To keep the same behaviour and continue with the *ancien regime*?

They already do with smart
power meters and load leveling pricing in many areas of the country..

They need to do the pricing in real time as the wind can drop in
minutes.

It also needs to be user friendly.

Carry the idea further. Taxing traffic during rush hours.

Various ways to accomplish that have already been proposed.

Food to
overweight people.

They've been taxing tobacco and rum for decades or centuries.
Government has a $200 billion / year health cost stake in reducing
obesity. Why not go after salty biofuel feed stock where all trace of
any DNA has been removed?

Water usage. Maybe a barbeque tax on smoggy
days...

Non educational tweaking.

Makes a lot more sense to control population growth IMO.

You think getting politicians to start adopting anti baby platforms
isn't modifying behaviour?

Bret Cahill

The idea of instantaneous pricing of power in real time has already
been proposed as a design goal of the ultimate smart grid...

They need to provide real time updates of the price.  This doesn't
mean the consumer would always be checking prices.  Certain loads
would be programmed to warn the homeowner and/or automatically shut
down when the price was too high.

True. what I would like to see is a mandate that smart wireless power
meters be required to provide indoor displays - or at least make it a
reasonably priced option, or software so one's wifi or bluetooth
computer devices can tap into the data.

Everyone likes a deal. Blue Light Special load side leveling could
really educate the generally clueless consumer on costs and
priorities. What am I saying? Until last week I had no idea my 5
year old LCD monitor uses 150 watts, no better than a CRT. I'll start
turning it off when I check dinner.

300 - 400 amp service might become popular in newer homes as it's easy
to store HVAC, the biggest load, for 24 hours.

I had the Black and Decker version- but it relies on batteries and
eventually water entered the battery compartment and killed it.  But
while it was working it was great for seeing what activities used
power - and would calculate the running average cost with something
like two or three tiers of time of day usage levels for power priced
that way.  End of the month power bill was never a surprise.

Before that  I went out each morning and logged the numbers off the
meter, but real time is much better.

The cost of info is rapidly going to zero compared to the cost of
energy. Opportunities to save/make money will be opening up as
frequently as extreme weather events. This needs to be taught as a
permanent law of economics.

Vehicle drive trains, for example, will only become increasingly
sophisticated.


Bret Cahill

 

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 10:48:24 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote:

Until last week I had no idea my 5
year old LCD monitor uses 150 watts, no better than a CRT. I'll start
turning it off when I check dinner.

That just doesn't sound believable. Power supply malfunction? error
reading? high power factor?

Think about it. The major power hungry component in an LCD monitor
should be the fluorescent lamp back light. Who could stare at a 150
watt fluorescent lamp for very long?

Unless you have a plasma display, they may use a lot of power.

Unless you have a "Jumbotron?"

 

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 10:13:33 -0500, krw@att.bizzz wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 09:04:53 -0500, default wrote:

On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 13:17:18 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote:

The consumer needs to do some of the work.

The consumer bears all of the cost no matter what.

Depends on the consumer.  Paris Hilton said she wouldn't bother with
such a scheme while a poor consumer might be more actively involved in
using wind or solar power.

It's kind of like the post office always pricing stamps a couple
pennies off a multiple of nickels.  The poor might find time to bother
with exact change.

What you want is
for consumers to modify their behavior.

What do you think Jefferson was advocating with the DoI?

To keep the same behaviour and continue with the *ancien regime*?

They already do with smart
power meters and load leveling pricing in many areas of the country.

They need to do the pricing in real time as the wind can drop in
minutes.

It also needs to be user friendly.

Carry the idea further. Taxing traffic during rush hours.

Various ways to accomplish that have already been proposed.

Food to
overweight people.

They've been taxing tobacco and rum for decades or centuries.
Government has a $200 billion / year health cost stake in reducing
obesity.  Why not go after salty biofuel feed stock where all trace of
any DNA has been removed?

Water usage. Maybe a barbeque tax on smoggy
days...

Non educational tweaking.

Makes a lot more sense to control population growth IMO.

You think getting politicians to start adopting anti baby platforms
isn't modifying behaviour?

Bret Cahill

The idea of instantaneous pricing of power in real time has already
been proposed as a design goal of the ultimate smart grid...

They need to provide real time updates of the price. This doesn't
mean the consumer would always be checking prices. Certain loads
would be programmed to warn the homeowner and/or automatically shut
down when the price was too high.

True. what I would like to see is a mandate that smart wireless power
meters be required to provide indoor displays - or at least make it a
reasonably priced option, or software so one's wifi or bluetooth
computer devices can tap into the data.

I had the Black and Decker version- but it relies on batteries and
eventually water entered the battery compartment and killed it. But
while it was working it was great for seeing what activities used
power - and would calculate the running average cost with something
like two or three tiers of time of day usage levels for power priced
that way. End of the month power bill was never a surprise.

Before that I went out each morning and logged the numbers off the
meter, but real time is much better.

In the house we've just moved out of, I installed a nest thermostat,
mainly so I could run the temperature low, then up it when it gets
cold (insurance for the pipes). Their app (web site) monitors energy
usage and you can see a daily history. Obviously this isn't perfect
because it's only the heat pump being monitored (it's the only real
variable though) and it can't know the exchange rate between hours and
watthours, or even watthours and dollars. I'm really not sure what it
shows, actually, since I've had "no usage" (the house has been idling
at 63-64F and I have it set to 57F). It should be enough to take the
"surprise" off the power bill. I am rarely surprised about the
electric bill, though (water is a different kettle-o-fish).

We were going through a years long drought and having a well for water

I got concerned about running it dry. One small change I made was to
install a low water shower head and another to use a large stainless
steel pot to heat water for dishwashing - since I invariably end up
dumping the dishwater when it cools down and filling up the sink again
with hot water. This way I just heat/re-heat the water in the pot and
wash dishes in it.

The intent was to save water, but the power bill fell by a good 20%.
I added a switch to the water heater and keep it off unless I intend
to shower that knocked a further 10% off. My usage is ~200 KWH a
month these days. I was down around $20 a month until they raised the
rates. I've got a high efficiency mini-split heat pump for HVAC and a
small house...

 

[Basement Bandy]

On Dec 13, 1:21 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:

I googled it:
http://cleantechnica.com/2011/04/18/thought-solar-was-hard-to-permit-...
Our government at [not]work!

Use $0.50/watt solar PV to desalinate sea water and then harness the
enormous political effect of a water war to power the legislative
branch!
Governor Brown has already experimented with this approach.

Actually, baseload power is vastly overvalued -- another nail in the
coffin of nukes.

As is the international utility commissions telling outright lies and
journalists refusing to call them out on it. Japan's Ohi nuclear
reactor lies on a fault line as many of its others do. So does
America's Diablo Canyon and Indian Point. Turkey's first planned
nuclear power plant is now in question because it lies on a fault
line. Yucca Mountain in Nevada lies on a fault line. The nuclear
reactor being constructed near the Iranian city of Bushehr is near an
active fault.

(talk about coffin all you want)

 

[Bret Cahill]

The consumer needs to do some of the work.

The consumer bears all of the cost no matter what.

Depends on the consumer. Paris Hilton said she wouldn't bother with
such a scheme while a poor consumer might be more actively involved in
using wind or solar power.

It's kind of like the post office always pricing stamps a couple
pennies off a multiple of nickels. The poor might find time to bother
with exact change.

What you want is
for consumers to modify their behavior.

What do you think Jefferson was advocating with the DoI?

To keep the same behaviour and continue with the *ancien regime*?

They already do with smart
power meters and load leveling pricing in many areas of the country.

They need to do the pricing in real time as the wind can drop in
minutes.

It also needs to be user friendly.

Carry the idea further. Taxing traffic during rush hours.

Various ways to accomplish that have already been proposed.

Food to
overweight people.

They've been taxing tobacco and rum for decades or centuries.
Government has a $200 billion / year health cost stake in reducing
obesity. Why not go after salty biofuel feed stock where all trace of
any DNA has been removed?

Water usage. Maybe a barbeque tax on smoggy
days...

Non educational tweaking.

Makes a lot more sense to control population growth IMO.

You think getting politicians to start adopting anti baby platforms
isn't modifying behaviour?

Bret Cahill

The idea of instantaneous pricing of power in real time has already
been proposed as a design goal of the ultimate smart grid...

They need to provide real time updates of the price.  This doesn't
mean the consumer would always be checking prices.  Certain loads
would be programmed to warn the homeowner and/or automatically shut
down when the price was too high.

True.  what I would like to see is a mandate that smart wireless power
meters be required to provide indoor displays - or at least make it a
reasonably priced option, or software so one's wifi or bluetooth
computer devices can tap into the data.

I had the Black and Decker version- but it relies on batteries and
eventually water entered the battery compartment and killed it.  But
while it was working it was great for seeing what activities used
power - and would calculate the running average cost with something
like two or three tiers of time of day usage levels for power priced
that way.  End of the month power bill was never a surprise.

Before that  I went out each morning and logged the numbers off the
meter, but real time is much better.

In the house we've just moved out of, I installed a nest thermostat,
mainly so I could run the temperature low, then up it when it gets
cold (insurance for the pipes).  Their app (web site) monitors energy
usage and you can see a daily history.  Obviously this isn't perfect
because it's only the heat pump being monitored (it's the only real
variable though) and it can't know the exchange rate between hours and
watthours, or even watthours and dollars.  I'm really not sure what it
shows, actually, since I've had "no usage" (the house has been idling
at 63-64F and I have it set to 57F).  It should be enough to take the
"surprise" off the power bill.  I am rarely surprised about the
electric bill, though (water is a different kettle-o-fish).

We were going through a years long drought and having a well for water
I got concerned about running it dry.

Your problem might not be a dropping water table. Sometimes the
material around old wells clogs up restricting flow. If your water
table is over 28' down you can find a really cheap easy home brew deep
well pump for low producing wells [< 1 gallon/minute] on my web page.
I used one for 4 years. There was never any way to enforce a patent
short of going after every well driller who knows how to work with PVC
so I never bothered.

Some use timers on submersible pumps in low production wells and just
cycle on and off every few minutes. With a vacuum system you can
scarf water all the way down to the last inch of well casing.


Bret Cahill

 

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 16:23:12 -0500, default wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 10:13:33 -0500, krw@att.bizzz wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 09:04:53 -0500, default wrote:

On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 13:17:18 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote:

The consumer needs to do some of the work.

The consumer bears all of the cost no matter what.

Depends on the consumer.  Paris Hilton said she wouldn't bother with
such a scheme while a poor consumer might be more actively involved in
using wind or solar power.

It's kind of like the post office always pricing stamps a couple
pennies off a multiple of nickels.  The poor might find time to bother
with exact change.

What you want is
for consumers to modify their behavior.

What do you think Jefferson was advocating with the DoI?

To keep the same behaviour and continue with the *ancien regime*?

They already do with smart
power meters and load leveling pricing in many areas of the country.

They need to do the pricing in real time as the wind can drop in
minutes.

It also needs to be user friendly.

Carry the idea further. Taxing traffic during rush hours.

Various ways to accomplish that have already been proposed.

Food to
overweight people.

They've been taxing tobacco and rum for decades or centuries.
Government has a $200 billion / year health cost stake in reducing
obesity.  Why not go after salty biofuel feed stock where all trace of
any DNA has been removed?

Water usage. Maybe a barbeque tax on smoggy
days...

Non educational tweaking.

Makes a lot more sense to control population growth IMO.

You think getting politicians to start adopting anti baby platforms
isn't modifying behaviour?

Bret Cahill

The idea of instantaneous pricing of power in real time has already
been proposed as a design goal of the ultimate smart grid...

They need to provide real time updates of the price. This doesn't
mean the consumer would always be checking prices. Certain loads
would be programmed to warn the homeowner and/or automatically shut
down when the price was too high.

True. what I would like to see is a mandate that smart wireless power
meters be required to provide indoor displays - or at least make it a
reasonably priced option, or software so one's wifi or bluetooth
computer devices can tap into the data.

I had the Black and Decker version- but it relies on batteries and
eventually water entered the battery compartment and killed it. But
while it was working it was great for seeing what activities used
power - and would calculate the running average cost with something
like two or three tiers of time of day usage levels for power priced
that way. End of the month power bill was never a surprise.

Before that I went out each morning and logged the numbers off the
meter, but real time is much better.

In the house we've just moved out of, I installed a nest thermostat,
mainly so I could run the temperature low, then up it when it gets
cold (insurance for the pipes). Their app (web site) monitors energy
usage and you can see a daily history. Obviously this isn't perfect
because it's only the heat pump being monitored (it's the only real
variable though) and it can't know the exchange rate between hours and
watthours, or even watthours and dollars. I'm really not sure what it
shows, actually, since I've had "no usage" (the house has been idling
at 63-64F and I have it set to 57F). It should be enough to take the
"surprise" off the power bill. I am rarely surprised about the
electric bill, though (water is a different kettle-o-fish).

We were going through a years long drought and having a well for water
I got concerned about running it dry. One small change I made was to
install a low water shower head and another to use a large stainless
steel pot to heat water for dishwashing - since I invariably end up
dumping the dishwater when it cools down and filling up the sink again
with hot water. This way I just heat/re-heat the water in the pot and
wash dishes in it.

Might as well live in a cave. ;-)

The intent was to save water, but the power bill fell by a good 20%.
I added a switch to the water heater and keep it off unless I intend
to shower that knocked a further 10% off. My usage is ~200 KWH a
month these days. I was down around $20 a month until they raised the
rates. I've got a high efficiency mini-split heat pump for HVAC and a
small house...

I don't remember what our "normal" electric usage is but in January
and August the bill (for the "old" [*]) is around $200, so that's over
10x your normal usage. IIRC, our service fee is more than $20/mo.

[*] Haven't actually lived through either month in the new place. I
was here in August, alone five days a week and the bill was about 2/3s
what the other place was, despite the house being 1/3 larger (3600ft^2
vs. 2600ft^2).

 

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 16:08:30 -0500, default wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 10:48:24 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote:

Until last week I had no idea my 5
year old LCD monitor uses 150 watts, no better than a CRT. I'll start
turning it off when I check dinner.

That just doesn't sound believable. Power supply malfunction? error
reading? high power factor?

Get a "Kill-A-Watt" and measure the real deal. At 150W, a monitor
should be quite warm to the touch. My 5YO 42" plasma TV draws 500W,
and yes, it is quite warm. The new 42" plasma uses 150W, so it isn't
so much a space heater.

Think about it. The major power hungry component in an LCD monitor
should be the fluorescent lamp back light. Who could stare at a 150
watt fluorescent lamp for very long?

Unless you have a plasma display, they may use a lot of power.

Yep, though the newer ones aren't nearly as bad.

Unless you have a "Jumbotron?"

They're not LCD. ;-)

 

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 13:39:46 -0800 (PST), Basement Bandy
<walter_evening@post.com> wrote:

On Dec 13, 1:21 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
I googled it:
http://cleantechnica.com/2011/04/18/thought-solar-was-hard-to-permit-...
Our government at [not]work!

Use $0.50/watt solar PV to desalinate sea water and then harness the
enormous political effect of a water war to power the legislative
branch!
Governor Brown has already experimented with this approach.

Actually, baseload power is vastly overvalued -- another nail in the
coffin of nukes.

As is the international utility commissions telling outright lies and
journalists refusing to call them out on it. Japan's Ohi nuclear
reactor lies on a fault line as many of its others do. So does
America's Diablo Canyon and Indian Point. Turkey's first planned
nuclear power plant is now in question because it lies on a fault
line. Yucca Mountain in Nevada lies on a fault line. The nuclear
reactor being constructed near the Iranian city of Bushehr is near an
active fault.

Oh, good grief. By that "logic", there is no place safe. Bury your
head, Chicken Little.

(talk about coffin all you want)

Go right ahead.

 

[tuinkabouter]

On 12/17/2012 12:49 AM, krw@att.bizzz wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 16:08:30 -0500, default wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 10:48:24 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote:

Until last week I had no idea my 5
year old LCD monitor uses 150 watts, no better than a CRT. I'll start
turning it off when I check dinner.

That just doesn't sound believable. Power supply malfunction? error
reading? high power factor?

Get a "Kill-A-Watt" and measure the real deal. At 150W, a monitor
should be quite warm to the touch. My 5YO 42" plasma TV draws 500W,
and yes, it is quite warm. The new 42" plasma uses 150W, so it isn't
so much a space heater.

And the you turn up your electric heater?