Procurement

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 08:13:46 -0700 (PDT), haiticare2011@gmail.com wrote:

There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

USA manufacturing in general seems to be picking up some lately. Maybe the
outsourcing craziness has peaked.
-John Larkin


The way I heard it, The US drove Intel out of California and the U.S. As the head of Intel put it, it cost him a billion $ more to open a plant in California.
(Craig Barrett)

Lots of big semi companies, and Internet companies, are headquartered, or have
big development groups, in California. Intel, Apple, Google, Dolby, Cisco, LTC,
Maxim, on and on. But manufacturing is not generally competitive here; too much
regulation and taxes, high energy cost, high land and labor costs.

The "US manufacturing picking up" is a comment seen in the lame stream media.
It's a peculiar comment, and it is there primarily as a political election slogan. It is used for unemployment, housing, and inflation.

Fracking is keeping energy costs down (at least in rational states) and that's
helping a lot. Electricity in parts of the US costs a third of what it costs in
Germany.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

 

[rickman]

On 6/8/2014 3:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 20:29:41 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/7/2014 12:13 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 02:05:13 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/6/2014 4:32 PM, John Larkin wrote:

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

I find that a very funny comment. I think you would be hard pressed to
find a better fab than the major Taiwanese companies like TSMC. Xilinx
has to ride herd on them??? As if!

Xilinx would be crazy to not be heavily involved in the process, and to not do
serious performance and quality inspection. Even the best fabs have problems now
and then.

You have a bizarre perspective on this. Intel doesn't need to push
quality down the throat of the Asian manufacturers. Heck, they were the
ones that taught *us* about quality. Xilinx is very much in bed with
their fabs because they work together to bring out each new generation.

The absurdity is that Intel would have to "ride herd" on the fab
companies. You paint a picture of Asia as being the poor stepchild of
semiconductors when they are currently the center of the world.

Big companies from GE to Boeing to Starbucks have extensive oversight of their
contractors, often to absurd extents. We have customers who want to review all
our processes and financials, costs and profit margins, try to force us to take
their courses and use their systems, subject us to massive quality and process
audits, want us to SPC everything. Our semiconductor customers are by far the
most demanding and most intrusive. The CE! thing gets pushed down from Intel to
their suppliers to *their* suppliers, namely us; we're not suposed to move a
workbench without approval. I don't think that Xilinx just emails tapeout files
to TSMC and waits for chips.

Yes, companies do all sorts of things that aren't as useful as they
might think. If they are working with a small outfit of unknown
pedigree then it makes perfect sense to do everything but hold their
hand. I'm sure that if TSMC didn't have Xilinx to watch over them with
loving grace they would just foul it all up and never be able to get a
chip out the door.

You can be very silly when you can't think of anything reasonable to say.

There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

Sure, the US is still involved in semis.

Yeah, somewhat involved.

But you make it sound like the
world can't run itself without the US looking over their shoulders
making sure they are doing it correctly.

I said no such thing.

Go back and read what you wrote. You made it sound like the only reason
TSMC can ship a quality product is because they had Xilinx monitoring
their every move. I'll save you the effort, here it is...

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

Clearly this is implying that the Taiwanese fabs can't handle quality
without Xilinx. *They taught US about quality*!!!

USA manufacturing in general seems to be picking up some lately. Maybe the
outsourcing craziness has peaked.

Lol, again you have a bizarre perspective as if the movement in
semiconductors over the last 40 years has been "outsourcing" like
opening a phone support center in Bangalore. This has happened in
semiconductors for one reason, because it is the most profitable way to
run a business. In some business areas having production outside the US
is a tradeoff. For semiconductors it is just the way it is and will be
for the largest segment of the market.

Many semi companies are now fabless; they are really selling intellectual
property more than silicon. They go to the best, and most economical, fabs
anywhere in the world. Nothing remarkable about that.

Exactly. Because many large fabs have extremely high levels of quality.

You are too funny sometimes. I see why the rest of the crowd here
laughs at you about your debating techniques.

--

Rick

 

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 12:39:07 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 08:13:46 -0700 (PDT), haiticare2011@gmail.com wrote:

There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

USA manufacturing in general seems to be picking up some lately. Maybe the
outsourcing craziness has peaked.
-John Larkin


The way I heard it, The US drove Intel out of California and the U.S. As the head of Intel put it, it cost him a billion $ more to open a plant in California.
(Craig Barrett)

Lots of big semi companies, and Internet companies, are headquartered, or have
big development groups, in California. Intel, Apple, Google, Dolby, Cisco, LTC,
Maxim, on and on. But manufacturing is not generally competitive here; too much
regulation and taxes, high energy cost, high land and labor costs.



The "US manufacturing picking up" is a comment seen in the lame stream media.
It's a peculiar comment, and it is there primarily as a political election slogan. It is used for unemployment, housing, and inflation.

Fracking is keeping energy costs down (at least in rational states) and that's
helping a lot. Electricity in parts of the US costs a third of what it costs in
Germany.

Parts are more like an eighth to maybe a quarter of Germany. Outside
of Hawaii, the highest is about half of what the Germans pay.

 

On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 09:33:52 -0700 (PDT), haiticare2011@gmail.com
wrote:

On Sunday, June 8, 2014 11:43:52 AM UTC-4, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 07:59:38 -0700 (PDT), the renowned

haiticare2011@gmail.com wrote:





So my point is that Ali Baba functions as a B2B exchange for people who want to

work hard and succeed. The U.S. has nothing like that, only stuff to make

people passive and unemployed.



I do agree that the situation with stodgy manufacturer's

representatives and such like could use some shaking up, and perhaps

there is a business opportunity there for Alibaba or somone else.



Could you raise, say, $10m to get it off the ground?





Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany

--

"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"

speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com

Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Good question. Yes, I could. Got any good SW programmers?

If you've got the money, finding programmers is the easy part.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 16:33:56 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/8/2014 3:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 20:29:41 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/7/2014 12:13 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 02:05:13 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/6/2014 4:32 PM, John Larkin wrote:

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

I find that a very funny comment. I think you would be hard pressed to
find a better fab than the major Taiwanese companies like TSMC. Xilinx
has to ride herd on them??? As if!

Xilinx would be crazy to not be heavily involved in the process, and to not do
serious performance and quality inspection. Even the best fabs have problems now
and then.

You have a bizarre perspective on this. Intel doesn't need to push
quality down the throat of the Asian manufacturers. Heck, they were the
ones that taught *us* about quality. Xilinx is very much in bed with
their fabs because they work together to bring out each new generation.

The absurdity is that Intel would have to "ride herd" on the fab
companies. You paint a picture of Asia as being the poor stepchild of
semiconductors when they are currently the center of the world.

Big companies from GE to Boeing to Starbucks have extensive oversight of their
contractors, often to absurd extents. We have customers who want to review all
our processes and financials, costs and profit margins, try to force us to take
their courses and use their systems, subject us to massive quality and process
audits, want us to SPC everything. Our semiconductor customers are by far the
most demanding and most intrusive. The CE! thing gets pushed down from Intel to
their suppliers to *their* suppliers, namely us; we're not suposed to move a
workbench without approval. I don't think that Xilinx just emails tapeout files
to TSMC and waits for chips.

Yes, companies do all sorts of things that aren't as useful as they
might think. If they are working with a small outfit of unknown
pedigree then it makes perfect sense to do everything but hold their
hand. I'm sure that if TSMC didn't have Xilinx to watch over them with
loving grace they would just foul it all up and never be able to get a
chip out the door.

I'm sure that Xilinx is critically and constantly involved in the semiconductor
processes used to make their chips. They have to be, because they have
competition. They care about performance and yield as much as anyone. They have
to design their next-gen products around what will be possible two years from
now.

Cyclone 6 is way behind schedule. Spartan 2E was discontinued because of fab
issues. This stuff matters.

You can be very silly when you can't think of anything reasonable to say.


There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

Sure, the US is still involved in semis.

Yeah, somewhat involved.

But you make it sound like the
world can't run itself without the US looking over their shoulders
making sure they are doing it correctly.

I said no such thing.

Go back and read what you wrote. You made it sound like the only reason
TSMC can ship a quality product is because they had Xilinx monitoring
their every move. I'll save you the effort, here it is...

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

Clearly this is implying that the Taiwanese fabs can't handle quality
without Xilinx. *They taught US about quality*!!!

Taiwan taught us about quality? When?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 16:44:58 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 12:39:07 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 08:13:46 -0700 (PDT), haiticare2011@gmail.com wrote:

There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

USA manufacturing in general seems to be picking up some lately. Maybe the
outsourcing craziness has peaked.
-John Larkin


The way I heard it, The US drove Intel out of California and the U.S. As the head of Intel put it, it cost him a billion $ more to open a plant in California.
(Craig Barrett)

Lots of big semi companies, and Internet companies, are headquartered, or have
big development groups, in California. Intel, Apple, Google, Dolby, Cisco, LTC,
Maxim, on and on. But manufacturing is not generally competitive here; too much
regulation and taxes, high energy cost, high land and labor costs.



The "US manufacturing picking up" is a comment seen in the lame stream media.
It's a peculiar comment, and it is there primarily as a political election slogan. It is used for unemployment, housing, and inflation.

Fracking is keeping energy costs down (at least in rational states) and that's
helping a lot. Electricity in parts of the US costs a third of what it costs in
Germany.

Parts are more like an eighth to maybe a quarter of Germany. Outside
of Hawaii, the highest is about half of what the Germans pay.

The German green thing has backfired. They are now heavy into coal, and building
Volkswagens in Mexico and Mercedes Benzes in Alabama.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

 

[rickman]

On 6/8/2014 6:23 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 16:33:56 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/8/2014 3:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 20:29:41 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/7/2014 12:13 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 02:05:13 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/6/2014 4:32 PM, John Larkin wrote:

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

I find that a very funny comment. I think you would be hard pressed to
find a better fab than the major Taiwanese companies like TSMC. Xilinx
has to ride herd on them??? As if!

Xilinx would be crazy to not be heavily involved in the process, and to not do
serious performance and quality inspection. Even the best fabs have problems now
and then.

You have a bizarre perspective on this. Intel doesn't need to push
quality down the throat of the Asian manufacturers. Heck, they were the
ones that taught *us* about quality. Xilinx is very much in bed with
their fabs because they work together to bring out each new generation.

The absurdity is that Intel would have to "ride herd" on the fab
companies. You paint a picture of Asia as being the poor stepchild of
semiconductors when they are currently the center of the world.

Big companies from GE to Boeing to Starbucks have extensive oversight of their
contractors, often to absurd extents. We have customers who want to review all
our processes and financials, costs and profit margins, try to force us to take
their courses and use their systems, subject us to massive quality and process
audits, want us to SPC everything. Our semiconductor customers are by far the
most demanding and most intrusive. The CE! thing gets pushed down from Intel to
their suppliers to *their* suppliers, namely us; we're not suposed to move a
workbench without approval. I don't think that Xilinx just emails tapeout files
to TSMC and waits for chips.

Yes, companies do all sorts of things that aren't as useful as they
might think. If they are working with a small outfit of unknown
pedigree then it makes perfect sense to do everything but hold their
hand. I'm sure that if TSMC didn't have Xilinx to watch over them with
loving grace they would just foul it all up and never be able to get a
chip out the door.

I'm sure that Xilinx is critically and constantly involved in the semiconductor
processes used to make their chips. They have to be, because they have
competition. They care about performance and yield as much as anyone. They have
to design their next-gen products around what will be possible two years from
now.

Cyclone 6 is way behind schedule. Spartan 2E was discontinued because of fab
issues. This stuff matters.

Yes, clearly Xilinx never makes a misstep. lol

You can be very silly when you can't think of anything reasonable to say.


There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

Sure, the US is still involved in semis.

Yeah, somewhat involved.

But you make it sound like the
world can't run itself without the US looking over their shoulders
making sure they are doing it correctly.

I said no such thing.

Go back and read what you wrote. You made it sound like the only reason
TSMC can ship a quality product is because they had Xilinx monitoring
their every move. I'll save you the effort, here it is...

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

Clearly this is implying that the Taiwanese fabs can't handle quality
without Xilinx. *They taught US about quality*!!!

Taiwan taught us about quality? When?

The Asians were all about quality when we were pumping out crap cars.
That is where it showed up first. The rest of manufacturing followed
suit. We have poor management techniques for any sort of large scale
production and have learned from the Asian successes. The name Deming
comes to mind.

--

Rick

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 19:05:23 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/8/2014 6:23 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 16:33:56 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/8/2014 3:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 20:29:41 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/7/2014 12:13 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 02:05:13 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/6/2014 4:32 PM, John Larkin wrote:

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

I find that a very funny comment. I think you would be hard pressed to
find a better fab than the major Taiwanese companies like TSMC. Xilinx
has to ride herd on them??? As if!

Xilinx would be crazy to not be heavily involved in the process, and to not do
serious performance and quality inspection. Even the best fabs have problems now
and then.

You have a bizarre perspective on this. Intel doesn't need to push
quality down the throat of the Asian manufacturers. Heck, they were the
ones that taught *us* about quality. Xilinx is very much in bed with
their fabs because they work together to bring out each new generation.

The absurdity is that Intel would have to "ride herd" on the fab
companies. You paint a picture of Asia as being the poor stepchild of
semiconductors when they are currently the center of the world.

Big companies from GE to Boeing to Starbucks have extensive oversight of their
contractors, often to absurd extents. We have customers who want to review all
our processes and financials, costs and profit margins, try to force us to take
their courses and use their systems, subject us to massive quality and process
audits, want us to SPC everything. Our semiconductor customers are by far the
most demanding and most intrusive. The CE! thing gets pushed down from Intel to
their suppliers to *their* suppliers, namely us; we're not suposed to move a
workbench without approval. I don't think that Xilinx just emails tapeout files
to TSMC and waits for chips.

Yes, companies do all sorts of things that aren't as useful as they
might think. If they are working with a small outfit of unknown
pedigree then it makes perfect sense to do everything but hold their
hand. I'm sure that if TSMC didn't have Xilinx to watch over them with
loving grace they would just foul it all up and never be able to get a
chip out the door.

I'm sure that Xilinx is critically and constantly involved in the semiconductor
processes used to make their chips. They have to be, because they have
competition. They care about performance and yield as much as anyone. They have
to design their next-gen products around what will be possible two years from
now.

Cyclone 6 is way behind schedule. Spartan 2E was discontinued because of fab
issues. This stuff matters.

Yes, clearly Xilinx never makes a misstep. lol


You can be very silly when you can't think of anything reasonable to say.


There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

Sure, the US is still involved in semis.

Yeah, somewhat involved.

But you make it sound like the
world can't run itself without the US looking over their shoulders
making sure they are doing it correctly.

I said no such thing.

Go back and read what you wrote. You made it sound like the only reason
TSMC can ship a quality product is because they had Xilinx monitoring
their every move. I'll save you the effort, here it is...

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

Clearly this is implying that the Taiwanese fabs can't handle quality
without Xilinx. *They taught US about quality*!!!

Taiwan taught us about quality? When?

The Asians were all about quality when we were pumping out crap cars.

You said that the Taiwanese fabs taught us about quality. Just above.

Or maybe all Asians look alike to you.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 19:05:23 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/8/2014 6:23 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 16:33:56 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/8/2014 3:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 20:29:41 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/7/2014 12:13 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 02:05:13 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/6/2014 4:32 PM, John Larkin wrote:

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

I find that a very funny comment. I think you would be hard pressed to
find a better fab than the major Taiwanese companies like TSMC. Xilinx
has to ride herd on them??? As if!

Xilinx would be crazy to not be heavily involved in the process, and to not do
serious performance and quality inspection. Even the best fabs have problems now
and then.

You have a bizarre perspective on this. Intel doesn't need to push
quality down the throat of the Asian manufacturers. Heck, they were the
ones that taught *us* about quality. Xilinx is very much in bed with
their fabs because they work together to bring out each new generation.

The absurdity is that Intel would have to "ride herd" on the fab
companies. You paint a picture of Asia as being the poor stepchild of
semiconductors when they are currently the center of the world.

Big companies from GE to Boeing to Starbucks have extensive oversight of their
contractors, often to absurd extents. We have customers who want to review all
our processes and financials, costs and profit margins, try to force us to take
their courses and use their systems, subject us to massive quality and process
audits, want us to SPC everything. Our semiconductor customers are by far the
most demanding and most intrusive. The CE! thing gets pushed down from Intel to
their suppliers to *their* suppliers, namely us; we're not suposed to move a
workbench without approval. I don't think that Xilinx just emails tapeout files
to TSMC and waits for chips.

Yes, companies do all sorts of things that aren't as useful as they
might think. If they are working with a small outfit of unknown
pedigree then it makes perfect sense to do everything but hold their
hand. I'm sure that if TSMC didn't have Xilinx to watch over them with
loving grace they would just foul it all up and never be able to get a
chip out the door.

I'm sure that Xilinx is critically and constantly involved in the semiconductor
processes used to make their chips. They have to be, because they have
competition. They care about performance and yield as much as anyone. They have
to design their next-gen products around what will be possible two years from
now.

Cyclone 6 is way behind schedule. Spartan 2E was discontinued because of fab
issues. This stuff matters.

Yes, clearly Xilinx never makes a misstep. lol


You can be very silly when you can't think of anything reasonable to say.


There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

Sure, the US is still involved in semis.

Yeah, somewhat involved.

But you make it sound like the
world can't run itself without the US looking over their shoulders
making sure they are doing it correctly.

I said no such thing.

Go back and read what you wrote. You made it sound like the only reason
TSMC can ship a quality product is because they had Xilinx monitoring
their every move. I'll save you the effort, here it is...

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

Clearly this is implying that the Taiwanese fabs can't handle quality
without Xilinx. *They taught US about quality*!!!

Taiwan taught us about quality? When?

The Asians were all about quality when we were pumping out crap cars.
That is where it showed up first. The rest of manufacturing followed
suit. We have poor management techniques for any sort of large scale
production and have learned from the Asian successes. The name Deming
comes to mind.

Yes; the Japanese had a reputation for poor quality until Denning introduced
them to the quality procedures originally developed at Bell Telephone in the
USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

So it sounds like we taught them about quality.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

 

On Sunday, June 8, 2014 7:21:47 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 19:05:23 -0400, rickman <gnuwefwearm@gmail.com> wrote:



On 6/8/2014 6:23 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 16:33:56 -0400, rickman <gnuwwarm@gmail.com> wrote:



On 6/8/2014 3:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 20:29:41 -0400, rickman <gn22uarm@gmail.com> wrote:



On 6/7/2014 12:13 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 02:05:13 -0400, rickman <gnua3rm@gmail.com> wrote:



On 6/6/2014 4:32 PM, John Larkin wrote:



A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but

I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.



I find that a very funny comment. I think you would be hard pressed to

find a better fab than the major Taiwanese companies like TSMC. Xilinx

has to ride herd on them??? As if!



Xilinx would be crazy to not be heavily involved in the process, and to not do

serious performance and quality inspection. Even the best fabs have problems now

and then.



You have a bizarre perspective on this. Intel doesn't need to push

quality down the throat of the Asian manufacturers. Heck, they were the

ones that taught *us* about quality. Xilinx is very much in bed with

their fabs because they work together to bring out each new generation.



The absurdity is that Intel would have to "ride herd" on the fab

companies. You paint a picture of Asia as being the poor stepchild of

semiconductors when they are currently the center of the world.



Big companies from GE to Boeing to Starbucks have extensive oversight of their

contractors, often to absurd extents. We have customers who want to review all

our processes and financials, costs and profit margins, try to force us to take

their courses and use their systems, subject us to massive quality and process

audits, want us to SPC everything. Our semiconductor customers are by far the

most demanding and most intrusive. The CE! thing gets pushed down from Intel to

their suppliers to *their* suppliers, namely us; we're not suposed to move a

workbench without approval. I don't think that Xilinx just emails tapeout files

to TSMC and waits for chips.



Yes, companies do all sorts of things that aren't as useful as they

might think. If they are working with a small outfit of unknown

pedigree then it makes perfect sense to do everything but hold their

hand. I'm sure that if TSMC didn't have Xilinx to watch over them with

loving grace they would just foul it all up and never be able to get a

chip out the door.



I'm sure that Xilinx is critically and constantly involved in the semiconductor

processes used to make their chips. They have to be, because they have

competition. They care about performance and yield as much as anyone. They have

to design their next-gen products around what will be possible two years from

now.



Cyclone 6 is way behind schedule. Spartan 2E was discontinued because of fab

issues. This stuff matters.



Yes, clearly Xilinx never makes a misstep. lol





You can be very silly when you can't think of anything reasonable to say.





There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.

And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over

the world, which makes sense.



Sure, the US is still involved in semis.



Yeah, somewhat involved.



But you make it sound like the

world can't run itself without the US looking over their shoulders

making sure they are doing it correctly.



I said no such thing.



Go back and read what you wrote. You made it sound like the only reason

TSMC can ship a quality product is because they had Xilinx monitoring

their every move. I'll save you the effort, here it is...



A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but

I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.



Clearly this is implying that the Taiwanese fabs can't handle quality

without Xilinx. *They taught US about quality*!!!



Taiwan taught us about quality? When?



The Asians were all about quality when we were pumping out crap cars.

That is where it showed up first. The rest of manufacturing followed

suit. We have poor management techniques for any sort of large scale

production and have learned from the Asian successes. The name Deming

comes to mind.





Yes; the Japanese had a reputation for poor quality until Denning introduced

them to the quality procedures originally developed at Bell Telephone in the

USA.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming



So it sounds like we taught them about quality.





--



John Larkin Highland Technology Inc

www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com



Precision electronic instrumentation

They were willing to learn. For a picture of the Japanese spirit, compare
pictures of Nagasaki and Detroit.

We don't hear much about Fukushima these days. Last I heard they were cooling
it with sea water sprayed on, then that made the ground soggy, which made the
reactor sink into it, which opened cracks in the containment vessel. Last I
heard, they were trying to freeze the ground to stop the sinking.

どのような毛色

jb

 

[rickman]

On 6/8/2014 7:21 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 19:05:23 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

The Asians were all about quality when we were pumping out crap cars.
That is where it showed up first. The rest of manufacturing followed
suit. We have poor management techniques for any sort of large scale
production and have learned from the Asian successes. The name Deming
comes to mind.


Yes; the Japanese had a reputation for poor quality until Denning introduced
them to the quality procedures originally developed at Bell Telephone in the
USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

So it sounds like we taught them about quality.

Not "we", Deming. Deming attempted to teach his ideas here and was
ignored until he went to Japan. It was only after the Japanese started
eating our lunch that we even gave lip service to the issue. The
problem is well known. The US goods still have a reputation for being
over priced and not the highest quality. Even here in the US generally
we buy foreign if we want the best quality.

--

Rick

 

[Tom Miller]

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:ako9p9d5hu5dopje3s2uaeigm4ndqlqve1@4ax.com...

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 16:44:58 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 12:39:07 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 08:13:46 -0700 (PDT), haiticare2011@gmail.com wrote:

There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in
the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are
all over
the world, which makes sense.

USA manufacturing in general seems to be picking up some lately. Maybe
the
outsourcing craziness has peaked.
-John Larkin


The way I heard it, The US drove Intel out of California and the U.S. As
the head of Intel put it, it cost him a billion $ more to open a plant
in California.
(Craig Barrett)

Lots of big semi companies, and Internet companies, are headquartered, or
have
big development groups, in California. Intel, Apple, Google, Dolby,
Cisco, LTC,
Maxim, on and on. But manufacturing is not generally competitive here;
too much
regulation and taxes, high energy cost, high land and labor costs.



The "US manufacturing picking up" is a comment seen in the lame stream
media.
It's a peculiar comment, and it is there primarily as a political
election slogan. It is used for unemployment, housing, and inflation.

Fracking is keeping energy costs down (at least in rational states) and
that's
helping a lot. Electricity in parts of the US costs a third of what it
costs in
Germany.

Parts are more like an eighth to maybe a quarter of Germany. Outside
of Hawaii, the highest is about half of what the Germans pay.

The German green thing has backfired. They are now heavy into coal, and
building
Volkswagens in Mexico and Mercedes Benzes in Alabama.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc

And shutting down their nukes. Things in Germany will get tough shortly.

tm

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 20:34:43 -0400, "Tom Miller" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>
wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:ako9p9d5hu5dopje3s2uaeigm4ndqlqve1@4ax.com...
On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 16:44:58 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 12:39:07 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 08:13:46 -0700 (PDT), haiticare2011@gmail.com wrote:

There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in
the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are
all over
the world, which makes sense.

USA manufacturing in general seems to be picking up some lately. Maybe
the
outsourcing craziness has peaked.
-John Larkin


The way I heard it, The US drove Intel out of California and the U.S. As
the head of Intel put it, it cost him a billion $ more to open a plant
in California.
(Craig Barrett)

Lots of big semi companies, and Internet companies, are headquartered, or
have
big development groups, in California. Intel, Apple, Google, Dolby,
Cisco, LTC,
Maxim, on and on. But manufacturing is not generally competitive here;
too much
regulation and taxes, high energy cost, high land and labor costs.



The "US manufacturing picking up" is a comment seen in the lame stream
media.
It's a peculiar comment, and it is there primarily as a political
election slogan. It is used for unemployment, housing, and inflation.

Fracking is keeping energy costs down (at least in rational states) and
that's
helping a lot. Electricity in parts of the US costs a third of what it
costs in
Germany.

Parts are more like an eighth to maybe a quarter of Germany. Outside
of Hawaii, the highest is about half of what the Germans pay.

The German green thing has backfired. They are now heavy into coal, and
building
Volkswagens in Mexico and Mercedes Benzes in Alabama.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc

And shutting down their nukes. Things in Germany will get tough shortly.

tm

They had better be very, very polite to Vladimir Putin.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

 

On Sunday, June 8, 2014 4:33:56 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:

On 6/8/2014 3:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 20:29:41 -0400, rickman wrote:

You can be very silly when you can't think of anything reasonable to say.

From this vantage, it's because you interpolate things John neither
said nor meant.

That's a common problem communicating person-to-person, hard to beat.

There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

Sure, the US is still involved in semis.

Yeah, somewhat involved.

But you make it sound like the
world can't run itself without the US looking over their shoulders
making sure they are doing it correctly.

I said no such thing.

Go back and read what you wrote. You made it sound like the only reason
TSMC can ship a quality product is because they had Xilinx monitoring
their every move. I'll save you the effort, here it is...

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

Clearly this is implying that the Taiwanese fabs can't handle quality
without Xilinx. *They taught US about quality*!!!

Nope, that would be Charles Deming. The Japanese listened first, true.

USA manufacturing in general seems to be picking up some lately. Maybe the
outsourcing craziness has peaked.

Lol, again you have a bizarre perspective as if the movement in
semiconductors over the last 40 years

He's discussing "USA manufacturing" now, not semiconductors.

has been "outsourcing" like
opening a phone support center in Bangalore. This has happened in
semiconductors for one reason, because it is the most profitable way to
run a business. In some business areas having production outside the US
is a tradeoff. For semiconductors it is just the way it is and will be
for the largest segment of the market.

"It is just the way it is" isn't exactly a theory or an explanation.

Many semi companies are now fabless; they are really selling intellectual
property more than silicon. They go to the best, and most economical, fabs
anywhere in the world. Nothing remarkable about that.

Exactly. Because many large fabs have extremely high levels of quality.

You are too funny sometimes. I see why the rest of the crowd here
laughs at you about your debating techniques.

I think John's just assuming as obvious things that totally fly over
some. I get his point easily, generally without translation.

E.g., several examples here. Or, when discussing topologies, I don't
(usually) need component values--the intentions and connections are
usually more than enough.

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

On Sunday, June 8, 2014 7:21:47 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

Yes; the Japanese had a reputation for poor quality until Denning introduced
them to the quality procedures originally developed at Bell Telephone in the
USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

So it sounds like we taught them about quality.

We did. But thanks for the link--I thought his name was Chuck, not "Ed".

Cheers,
James

 

On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 11:30:21 AM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Sunday, June 8, 2014 7:21:47 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:



Yes; the Japanese had a reputation for poor quality until Denning introduced

them to the quality procedures originally developed at Bell Telephone in the

USA.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming



So it sounds like we taught them about quality.



We did. But thanks for the link--I thought his name was Chuck, not "Ed".



Cheers,

James

Well, heh heh. They were motivated to learn about manufacturing quality.
We didn't "teach" them about it.
To be teachable yourself is more important than the presence of the teacher.
I'm going to say that the teachable quality of the Japanese comes from their
Zen tradition, which has died out today. This tradition has a feature missing
from US society: Self-Reflection. The practice of looking at your self to see
what can be improved.
You could say that US society is the opposite.