Procurement

[Phil Hobbs]

Hi, all,

A bit of a strange question for all you actual product-making types.
What's the professional etiquette about discussing one supplier's
pricing with another supplier?

I find it hard to believe that anyone would think it unusual, but
somebody is trying to convince me otherwise.

How's it done in your shops?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

 

[Tim Wescott]

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 13:17:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Hi, all,

A bit of a strange question for all you actual product-making types.
What's the professional etiquette about discussing one supplier's
pricing with another supplier?

I find it hard to believe that anyone would think it unusual, but
somebody is trying to convince me otherwise.

How's it done in your shops?

I don't know what's considered usual, but being able to say "So-and-so
down the street can get this to me for half of what you're asking"
certainly works for me.

Of course, when I get that sort of bargaining chip tossed in front of me,
my response is usually along the lines of "Well, I'm happy for you. When
you find it doesn't work, I'll make you something that _does_ work for
this here quoted amount."

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 13:17:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<hobbs@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Hi, all,

A bit of a strange question for all you actual product-making types.
What's the professional etiquette about discussing one supplier's
pricing with another supplier?

I find it hard to believe that anyone would think it unusual, but
somebody is trying to convince me otherwise.

How's it done in your shops?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

Vendors are usually eager to know what other vendors are charging; I
certainly am. I can't see anything unethical about telling them,
especially for catalog items. They can always find out anyhow; I have
spies do it for me.

It might be tackey to work with someone on something custom, and then
shop the requirement around. But unless there's an NDA or equivalent,
it's not illegal.

What really annoys me - happened again yesterday - is when vendors
respond to an RFQ with "how much do you want to pay"?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 12:33:40 -0500, Tim Wescott
<tim@seemywebsite.really> wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 13:17:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Hi, all,

A bit of a strange question for all you actual product-making types.
What's the professional etiquette about discussing one supplier's
pricing with another supplier?

I find it hard to believe that anyone would think it unusual, but
somebody is trying to convince me otherwise.

How's it done in your shops?

I don't know what's considered usual, but being able to say "So-and-so
down the street can get this to me for half of what you're asking"
certainly works for me.

Of course, when I get that sort of bargaining chip tossed in front of me,
my response is usually along the lines of "Well, I'm happy for you. When
you find it doesn't work, I'll make you something that _does_ work for
this here quoted amount."

I've done that. A year later they came back to ask me to fix their
problem. I raised my price... inflation, you know >:-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Tim Wescott]

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 10:43:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 13:17:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs
hobbs@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Hi, all,

A bit of a strange question for all you actual product-making types.
What's the professional etiquette about discussing one supplier's
pricing with another supplier?

I find it hard to believe that anyone would think it unusual, but
somebody is trying to convince me otherwise.

How's it done in your shops?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

Vendors are usually eager to know what other vendors are charging; I
certainly am. I can't see anything unethical about telling them,
especially for catalog items. They can always find out anyhow; I have
spies do it for me.

It might be tackey to work with someone on something custom, and then
shop the requirement around. But unless there's an NDA or equivalent,
it's not illegal.

That's kind of a gray area -- in your case if you're doing something
that's based on a regular product, with modifications, then it'd be hard
to get your foot in the door without helping the customer to refine their
desires.

I'm in a different boat, which means that if a customer comes to me with
insufficient requirements and insists on a firm fixed price, I just tell
them that I won't bid until the requirements are detailed enough, and I
give them a price or an hourly rate to do _that_ work.

(I usually try to talk such customers out of a firm-fixed bid: if they
don't know what they want, then even with set requirements they'll change
their minds about the requirements as soon as they see the first working
example. When they do -- and I tell them this -- I'm going to say "yes,
we can change that -- let me bid the NEW price!")

What really annoys me - happened again yesterday - is when vendors
respond to an RFQ with "how much do you want to pay"?

Why should you be annoyed when a potential vendor announces up front that
they want to either soak you for as much as they can get, or purposely
underbid a project and deliver crap? I should think you'd like getting
the clear warning!

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 04:25:46 -0700 (PDT), the renowned
haiticare2011@gmail.com wrote:

I'm also looking at the contrast between Ali Baba and ebay. well, you should
really use the Thomas Catalog, which is the closest functional parallel. Is it
possible little Jack Ma created something which is totally missing from the US?
The usual narrative is that the US can't compete because labor is cheaper in
China. But is it possible the Chinese are winning because they have a better
system?

The Alibaba website itself is not comparable to eBay, it's primarily
B2B. I think a lot of people are confused by this. They own Tmall and
taobao, which are retail sites.

http://www.taobao.com/market/global/index_new.php



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 04:25:46 -0700 (PDT), the renowned
haiticare2011@gmail.com wrote:

I'm also looking at the contrast between Ali Baba and ebay. well, you should
really use the Thomas Catalog, which is the closest functional parallel. Is it
possible little Jack Ma created something which is totally missing from the US?
The usual narrative is that the US can't compete because labor is cheaper in
China. But is it possible the Chinese are winning because they have a better
system?

The Alibaba website itself is not comparable to eBay, it's primarily
B2B. I think a lot of people are confused by this. They own Tmall and
Taobao, which are wildly sucessful B2C retail sites.

http://www.taobao.com/market/global/index_new.php

http://www.tmall.com/

Lots of nice stuff like NSA-free Huawei phones for sale, along with a
ton of clothes and other (mostly) girl-stuff. Chinese ex-pats seem to
be always browsing the site.

I would not say that the Chinese are "winning", they're actually quite
far from even catching up on a per-capita basis. They're winning the
fight against their own poverty, with 600,000,000+ people lifted out
of poverty in the last 30 years- nothing like that has happend in
human history.

By that token, you could say that Europe "won" because they are now
the biggest and richest market in the world, but their per-capita GDP
lags somewhat, and really, in both cases, it's more of a return to the
natural scheme of things after a bad 100 years (Europe) and 200 years
(China). Even the Russian market has been growing at 20% per year
recently (but there are a lot fewer Russians).


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[joe hey]

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 09:12:06 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 04:25:46 -0700 (PDT), the renowned
haiticare2011@gmail.com wrote:


I'm also looking at the contrast between Ali Baba and ebay. well, you
should really use the Thomas Catalog, which is the closest functional
parallel. Is it possible little Jack Ma created something which is
totally missing from the US?
The usual narrative is that the US can't compete because labor is
cheaper in China. But is it possible the Chinese are winning because
they have a better system?

The Alibaba website itself is not comparable to eBay, it's primarily
B2B. I think a lot of people are confused by this. They own Tmall and
taobao, which are retail sites.

http://www.taobao.com/market/global/index_new.php



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Or have a look at https://www.aliexpress.com

joe

 

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 00:23:54 -0500, Tim Wescott
<tim@seemywebsite.really> wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 19:35:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 12:33:40 -0500, Tim Wescott
tim@seemywebsite.really> wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 13:17:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Hi, all,

A bit of a strange question for all you actual product-making types.
What's the professional etiquette about discussing one supplier's
pricing with another supplier?

I find it hard to believe that anyone would think it unusual, but
somebody is trying to convince me otherwise.

How's it done in your shops?

I don't know what's considered usual, but being able to say "So-and-so
down the street can get this to me for half of what you're asking"
certainly works for me.

Of course, when I get that sort of bargaining chip tossed in front of
me,
my response is usually along the lines of "Well, I'm happy for you.
When you find it doesn't work, I'll make you something that _does_ work
for this here quoted amount."

Then you would starve, if we were your customer. If you're out in left
field, there isn't much reason to consider your parts.

If some guy down the street is doing the job for half the price I can
come in at, he's doing it for way less than half the quality.

You're making shit up.

If quality doesn't matter to you, then you and I don't need to do
business together, no matter who's buying.

You're wrong, of course. Price and quality are only tangentially
related.

 

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 23:31:01 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 13:17:18 -0400, the renowned Phil Hobbs
hobbs@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Hi, all,

A bit of a strange question for all you actual product-making types.
What's the professional etiquette about discussing one supplier's
pricing with another supplier?

I find it hard to believe that anyone would think it unusual, but
somebody is trying to convince me otherwise.

How's it done in your shops?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

If you show supplier B's quote to supplier A, they'll assume you'll do
likewise when the tables are turned.

Absolutely.

If they think it's going to be a Dutch auction, they may not give you
as good a price starting off next time, and that wastes everyone's
time.

There may be times when it is appropriate, but I think those times
should be rare. I'd rather they give me their 'best' price up front
and if they lose the order this time, try harder next time (and reward
the supplier who isn't screwing around trying to get a bit more).

I agree 100%, however some suppliers are harder to train than others.
;-) Some just aren't set up to do a decent job on quotes - too much
bureaucracy. Some have a very steep piece price curve, with others
will quote a flat price or at least a much flatter curve. The latter
has experience that shows that a good price up-front will encourage
use, even in smaller production programs, and then expand to others.
One is fighting for something in between but keeps quoting from the
"sheet", which *really* distorts the curve.

This is for non-life-and-death situations and moderate quantities- GM
is going to have more cutthroat policies, and if the price of an item
is make-or-break for the viability of a project, you do what you have
to.

Yes, it depends on how hungry the supplier is (and of course how much
purchasing power you have).

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 02:05:13 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/6/2014 4:32 PM, John Larkin wrote:

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

I find that a very funny comment. I think you would be hard pressed to
find a better fab than the major Taiwanese companies like TSMC. Xilinx
has to ride herd on them??? As if!

Xilinx would be crazy to not be heavily involved in the process, and to not do
serious performance and quality inspection. Even the best fabs have problems now
and then.

It has been a long time since the US was the center of semiconductor
fabrication.

Intel develops its processes in their prime fabs in Oregon, and then does an
amazingly rigid CE! (Copy Exact!) dispersion to other fabs around the world,
including some in the USA.

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1257655

The CE! concept is that *everything* is an exact copy of the Oregon fab. Pipes,
outlets, doors, lighting, machine placement, processes, everything. If you are
plopped down in any fab, anywhere in the world, you're not supposed to be able
to tell the difference.

There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

USA manufacturing in general seems to be picking up some lately. Maybe the
outsourcing craziness has peaked.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 09:41:37 -0400, the renowned Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

http://www.tmall.com/

Lots of nice stuff...

http://miao.tmall.com/?spm=3.7095809.2000z005.1.6OUzEJ#act_chelizi

Some nice big cherries (che li zi) from the American Pacific Northwest
(mei guo xi bei)* at Y65 (the equivalent of USD $10.40) for a kg.

* literally 'America West North'

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Martin Riddle]

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 09:13:35 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 02:05:13 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/6/2014 4:32 PM, John Larkin wrote:

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

I find that a very funny comment. I think you would be hard pressed to
find a better fab than the major Taiwanese companies like TSMC. Xilinx
has to ride herd on them??? As if!

Xilinx would be crazy to not be heavily involved in the process, and to not do
serious performance and quality inspection. Even the best fabs have problems now
and then.


It has been a long time since the US was the center of semiconductor
fabrication.

Intel develops its processes in their prime fabs in Oregon, and then does an
amazingly rigid CE! (Copy Exact!) dispersion to other fabs around the world,
including some in the USA.

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1257655

The CE! concept is that *everything* is an exact copy of the Oregon fab. Pipes,
outlets, doors, lighting, machine placement, processes, everything. If you are
plopped down in any fab, anywhere in the world, you're not supposed to be able
to tell the difference.

Yep down to the paint on the walls and carpets on the floors.
Apparently there was a problem at one time that was infulenced by the
surounding materials and what they were leaching out.

Cheers

 

[rickman]

On 6/7/2014 12:13 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 02:05:13 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/6/2014 4:32 PM, John Larkin wrote:

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

I find that a very funny comment. I think you would be hard pressed to
find a better fab than the major Taiwanese companies like TSMC. Xilinx
has to ride herd on them??? As if!

Xilinx would be crazy to not be heavily involved in the process, and to not do
serious performance and quality inspection. Even the best fabs have problems now
and then.

You have a bizarre perspective on this. Intel doesn't need to push
quality down the throat of the Asian manufacturers. Heck, they were the
ones that taught *us* about quality. Xilinx is very much in bed with
their fabs because they work together to bring out each new generation.

The absurdity is that Intel would have to "ride herd" on the fab
companies. You paint a picture of Asia as being the poor stepchild of
semiconductors when they are currently the center of the world.

There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

Sure, the US is still involved in semis. But you make it sound like the
world can't run itself without the US looking over their shoulders
making sure they are doing it correctly.

USA manufacturing in general seems to be picking up some lately. Maybe the
outsourcing craziness has peaked.

Lol, again you have a bizarre perspective as if the movement in
semiconductors over the last 40 years has been "outsourcing" like
opening a phone support center in Bangalore. This has happened in
semiconductors for one reason, because it is the most profitable way to
run a business. In some business areas having production outside the US
is a tradeoff. For semiconductors it is just the way it is and will be
for the largest segment of the market.

--

Rick

 

On Saturday, June 7, 2014 10:20:26 AM UTC-4, joe hey wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 09:12:06 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:



On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 04:25:46 -0700 (PDT), the renowned

haiticasdfgre2011@gmail.com wrote:





I'm also looking at the contrast between Ali Baba and ebay. well, you

should really use the Thomas Catalog, which is the closest functional

parallel. Is it possible little Jack Ma created something which is

totally missing from the US?

The usual narrative is that the US can't compete because labor is

cheaper in China. But is it possible the Chinese are winning because

they have a better system?



The Alibaba website itself is not comparable to eBay, it's primarily

B2B. I think a lot of people are confused by this. They own Tmall and

taobao, which are retail sites.



http://www.taobao.com/market/global/index_new.php







Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany



Or have a look at https://www.aliexpress.com



joe

My comment about Ali Baba VS US equivalent is that there ISN'T any US system
that does what Ali Baba does. Nada. 0. pants down. grass skirts against suits.
nothing. get it?

And saying Jack Ma is winning is based on the IPO and valuation of a B2B high
tech enterprise. And above all, comparison to US companies. What US companies
are big valuations in the investment market? -

Apple - a totally frou-frou enterprise, catering to selfies and the clueless
Google- business model of spying for marketing surveillance. Corrupt
anti-empowerment model.
Microsoft + Intel - Biz as usual 1985. About as clever as a donut maker.

So my point is that Ali Baba functions as a B2B exchange for people who want to
work hard and succeed. The U.S. has nothing like that, only stuff to make
people passive and unemployed.

 

There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

USA manufacturing in general seems to be picking up some lately. Maybe the
outsourcing craziness has peaked.
-John Larkin


The way I heard it, The US drove Intel out of California and the U.S. As the head of Intel put it, it cost him a billion $ more to open a plant in California.
(Craig Barrett)

The "US manufacturing picking up" is a comment seen in the lame stream media.
It's a peculiar comment, and it is there primarily as a political election slogan. It is used for unemployment, housing, and inflation.

The unfortunate truth is that all those situations are crappy, but a politician can always say things are "picking up." Like, "I was in a car accident and now in wheel chair, by dog got run over, I was diagnosed with Hepatitis C, I lost all my money in gambling, I have Lou Gehrig's disease. But I got a refund check for $100 on my taxes."

Things are "picking up." Look on the positive side.

I feel better already.

 

On Sunday, June 8, 2014 11:43:52 AM UTC-4, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 07:59:38 -0700 (PDT), the renowned

haiticare2011@gmail.com wrote:





So my point is that Ali Baba functions as a B2B exchange for people who want to

work hard and succeed. The U.S. has nothing like that, only stuff to make

people passive and unemployed.



I do agree that the situation with stodgy manufacturer's

representatives and such like could use some shaking up, and perhaps

there is a business opportunity there for Alibaba or somone else.



Could you raise, say, $10m to get it off the ground?





Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany

--

"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"

speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com

Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Good question. Yes, I could. Got any good SW programmers?

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 07:59:38 -0700 (PDT), the renowned
haiticare2011@gmail.com wrote:

So my point is that Ali Baba functions as a B2B exchange for people who want to
work hard and succeed. The U.S. has nothing like that, only stuff to make
people passive and unemployed.

I do agree that the situation with stodgy manufacturer's
representatives and such like could use some shaking up, and perhaps
there is a business opportunity there for Alibaba or somone else.

Could you raise, say, $10m to get it off the ground?


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 20:29:41 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/7/2014 12:13 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 02:05:13 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/6/2014 4:32 PM, John Larkin wrote:

A lot of semiconductors are actually fabbed in Taiwan or wherever, but
I trust that Xilinx or whoever is riding herd on quality.

I find that a very funny comment. I think you would be hard pressed to
find a better fab than the major Taiwanese companies like TSMC. Xilinx
has to ride herd on them??? As if!

Xilinx would be crazy to not be heavily involved in the process, and to not do
serious performance and quality inspection. Even the best fabs have problems now
and then.

You have a bizarre perspective on this. Intel doesn't need to push
quality down the throat of the Asian manufacturers. Heck, they were the
ones that taught *us* about quality. Xilinx is very much in bed with
their fabs because they work together to bring out each new generation.

The absurdity is that Intel would have to "ride herd" on the fab
companies. You paint a picture of Asia as being the poor stepchild of
semiconductors when they are currently the center of the world.

Big companies from GE to Boeing to Starbucks have extensive oversight of their
contractors, often to absurd extents. We have customers who want to review all
our processes and financials, costs and profit margins, try to force us to take
their courses and use their systems, subject us to massive quality and process
audits, want us to SPC everything. Our semiconductor customers are by far the
most demanding and most intrusive. The CE! thing gets pushed down from Intel to
their suppliers to *their* suppliers, namely us; we're not suposed to move a
workbench without approval. I don't think that Xilinx just emails tapeout files
to TSMC and waits for chips.

(The range of oversight varies wildly, sort of at random. Some companies are
crazy about it, others never mention it.)

There's lots of semiconductor design, and process development, done in the USA.
And a lot of process equipment is fabricated here. The actual fabs are all over
the world, which makes sense.

Sure, the US is still involved in semis.

Yeah, somewhat involved.

But you make it sound like the

world can't run itself without the US looking over their shoulders
making sure they are doing it correctly.

I said no such thing.

USA manufacturing in general seems to be picking up some lately. Maybe the
outsourcing craziness has peaked.

Lol, again you have a bizarre perspective as if the movement in
semiconductors over the last 40 years has been "outsourcing" like
opening a phone support center in Bangalore. This has happened in
semiconductors for one reason, because it is the most profitable way to
run a business. In some business areas having production outside the US
is a tradeoff. For semiconductors it is just the way it is and will be
for the largest segment of the market.

Many semi companies are now fabless; they are really selling intellectual
property more than silicon. They go to the best, and most economical, fabs
anywhere in the world. Nothing remarkable about that.

IC design and architecture is still dominated by US companies. The various
Japanese initiatives (TRON and such) didn't work. ARM is the outstanding non-US
design house. DRAM and flash are well represented in asia. GaN is dominated by
US companies, many university spinouts. The US invented transistors and ICs, and
it's a *big* country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_sales_leaders_by_year#Ranking_for_year_2013


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation