Printing on mylar/acetate...

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 1:48:32 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:

On 1/5/2023 9:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:
I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.

AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)

However from what I recall, in general, those transparency sheets aren\'t
themselves all that durable -- to the point where your stylus may be
able to scratch them. So, for a long-term use sheet, laminating it would
probably be your best option.
Yeah, I originally thought of using mylar as it\'s a considerably
more robust medium. But, my mylar is all semi-opaque. So, the idea
of printing on the reverse side doesn\'t seem like it would work
well (the image would appear cloudy).

There are service bureaus here that can make washable durable adhesive labels on
mylar, for a price. Polycarbonate is another available option. Probably
something more complicated than a laser printer...

 

[Don Y]

On 1/6/2023 2:07 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/6/2023 2:17 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/5/2023 10:10 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
We have also produced waymarks for \"The Coal Canal Way\" footpath. We
bought a batch of professional waymarks printed on polycarbonate but
found that in many locations we needed to wrap them around tubular metal
posts and the polycarbonate could only be set in a curve by a tedious
heat process. The acetate sheets could be wrapped around the post and
fixed with double-sided sticky tape as long as the area was thoroughly
cleaned with isopropanol first.

But, in each of these cases, how long was the signage expected to last?
I wouldn\'t think acetate would fare well, over the long term (sun, heat,
rain, etc.)

Some of our first QR Code \'targets\' are still readable after 5 years.
That part of the project was abandoned when we discovered that mobile
\'phone coverage in the valley where the canal ran varied from lousy to
non-existant. Most of our A4 signs have succumbed to vandalism, rather
than weather, after 5 years.

The double-sided sticky roundels have been up about a year and the only
ones missing are those torn down by objectionable locals in the first
week. The others look fine and haven\'t shown any signs of fading yet.

Plastics left out-of-doors, here, turn brittle in short order.
Folks quickly learn not to leave anything *in* plastic containers
as the containers just crack (spilling their contents). E.g.,
the fire-starting-liquid for the barbecue is in an old wine bottle,
here. The original plastic containers cracking (spilling flammable
fluid) in less time than it took to consume their contents!

I don\'t know how acetate would fare...

[where are you? or, where are the signs??]

I think the commercial laminators use an *adhesive* film that they
just apply to the surface(s). This seems to be much thinner...
almost like (oversized) cellophane tape.

The adhesive is hot-melt glue and it is activated with a device like a
miniature domestic mangle, which squeezes out the air pockets with

Heh heh hee... there\'s a word I\'ve not heard in many decades!
\"Wringer\" perhaps being more common, here.

silicone rubber rollers as it heats the glue. You can buy small home
laminators which use ready-made lamination pockets; the commercial
laminators use the laminating material in bulk from a roll, which works
out cheaper if you have a lot to do.

My laminator is thermal. The \"roll film\", I think, is adhesive-based (?)

If I was making signs, I\'d print on cardstock and laminate (double-sided).
This gives you a sturdy -- yet flexible -- long-lasting item.

I routinely make \"luggage tags\" with \"notes\" for various pieces
of kit that I own -- then \"clip\" them to the item. E.g., I
have one that lists the beep codes for my workstations (no,
I won\'t want to look it up if I\'m faced with that issue!),
another explains the cryptic, semi-alphabetic two symbol error
codes for the washer, dryer, (why does \"dS\" mean \"door not closed\"?
and \"nF\"mean \"water not turned on\"?), etc.

My expectation is that the item will be discarded long before the note
shows signs of wear!

 

[Don Y]

On 1/6/2023 2:07 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/6/2023 2:17 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/5/2023 10:10 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
We have also produced waymarks for \"The Coal Canal Way\" footpath. We
bought a batch of professional waymarks printed on polycarbonate but
found that in many locations we needed to wrap them around tubular metal
posts and the polycarbonate could only be set in a curve by a tedious
heat process. The acetate sheets could be wrapped around the post and
fixed with double-sided sticky tape as long as the area was thoroughly
cleaned with isopropanol first.

But, in each of these cases, how long was the signage expected to last?
I wouldn\'t think acetate would fare well, over the long term (sun, heat,
rain, etc.)

Some of our first QR Code \'targets\' are still readable after 5 years.
That part of the project was abandoned when we discovered that mobile
\'phone coverage in the valley where the canal ran varied from lousy to
non-existant. Most of our A4 signs have succumbed to vandalism, rather
than weather, after 5 years.

The double-sided sticky roundels have been up about a year and the only
ones missing are those torn down by objectionable locals in the first
week. The others look fine and haven\'t shown any signs of fading yet.

Plastics left out-of-doors, here, turn brittle in short order.
Folks quickly learn not to leave anything *in* plastic containers
as the containers just crack (spilling their contents). E.g.,
the fire-starting-liquid for the barbecue is in an old wine bottle,
here. The original plastic containers cracking (spilling flammable
fluid) in less time than it took to consume their contents!

I don\'t know how acetate would fare...

[where are you? or, where are the signs??]

I think the commercial laminators use an *adhesive* film that they
just apply to the surface(s). This seems to be much thinner...
almost like (oversized) cellophane tape.

The adhesive is hot-melt glue and it is activated with a device like a
miniature domestic mangle, which squeezes out the air pockets with

Heh heh hee... there\'s a word I\'ve not heard in many decades!
\"Wringer\" perhaps being more common, here.

silicone rubber rollers as it heats the glue. You can buy small home
laminators which use ready-made lamination pockets; the commercial
laminators use the laminating material in bulk from a roll, which works
out cheaper if you have a lot to do.

My laminator is thermal. The \"roll film\", I think, is adhesive-based (?)

If I was making signs, I\'d print on cardstock and laminate (double-sided).
This gives you a sturdy -- yet flexible -- long-lasting item.

I routinely make \"luggage tags\" with \"notes\" for various pieces
of kit that I own -- then \"clip\" them to the item. E.g., I
have one that lists the beep codes for my workstations (no,
I won\'t want to look it up if I\'m faced with that issue!),
another explains the cryptic, semi-alphabetic two symbol error
codes for the washer, dryer, (why does \"dS\" mean \"door not closed\"?
and \"nF\"mean \"water not turned on\"?), etc.

My expectation is that the item will be discarded long before the note
shows signs of wear!

 

[Don Y]

On 1/6/2023 2:07 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/6/2023 2:17 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/5/2023 10:10 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
We have also produced waymarks for \"The Coal Canal Way\" footpath. We
bought a batch of professional waymarks printed on polycarbonate but
found that in many locations we needed to wrap them around tubular metal
posts and the polycarbonate could only be set in a curve by a tedious
heat process. The acetate sheets could be wrapped around the post and
fixed with double-sided sticky tape as long as the area was thoroughly
cleaned with isopropanol first.

But, in each of these cases, how long was the signage expected to last?
I wouldn\'t think acetate would fare well, over the long term (sun, heat,
rain, etc.)

Some of our first QR Code \'targets\' are still readable after 5 years.
That part of the project was abandoned when we discovered that mobile
\'phone coverage in the valley where the canal ran varied from lousy to
non-existant. Most of our A4 signs have succumbed to vandalism, rather
than weather, after 5 years.

The double-sided sticky roundels have been up about a year and the only
ones missing are those torn down by objectionable locals in the first
week. The others look fine and haven\'t shown any signs of fading yet.

Plastics left out-of-doors, here, turn brittle in short order.
Folks quickly learn not to leave anything *in* plastic containers
as the containers just crack (spilling their contents). E.g.,
the fire-starting-liquid for the barbecue is in an old wine bottle,
here. The original plastic containers cracking (spilling flammable
fluid) in less time than it took to consume their contents!

I don\'t know how acetate would fare...

[where are you? or, where are the signs??]

I think the commercial laminators use an *adhesive* film that they
just apply to the surface(s). This seems to be much thinner...
almost like (oversized) cellophane tape.

The adhesive is hot-melt glue and it is activated with a device like a
miniature domestic mangle, which squeezes out the air pockets with

Heh heh hee... there\'s a word I\'ve not heard in many decades!
\"Wringer\" perhaps being more common, here.

silicone rubber rollers as it heats the glue. You can buy small home
laminators which use ready-made lamination pockets; the commercial
laminators use the laminating material in bulk from a roll, which works
out cheaper if you have a lot to do.

My laminator is thermal. The \"roll film\", I think, is adhesive-based (?)

If I was making signs, I\'d print on cardstock and laminate (double-sided).
This gives you a sturdy -- yet flexible -- long-lasting item.

I routinely make \"luggage tags\" with \"notes\" for various pieces
of kit that I own -- then \"clip\" them to the item. E.g., I
have one that lists the beep codes for my workstations (no,
I won\'t want to look it up if I\'m faced with that issue!),
another explains the cryptic, semi-alphabetic two symbol error
codes for the washer, dryer, (why does \"dS\" mean \"door not closed\"?
and \"nF\"mean \"water not turned on\"?), etc.

My expectation is that the item will be discarded long before the note
shows signs of wear!

 

[Don Y]

On 1/7/2023 9:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/7/2023 4:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
My original reason for making a continuous laminator was to manufacture
glossy, gunge-poof, cardboard CD covers for a special children\'s talking
book issue. The project never came to fruition (market research showed
that nobody could be bothered to listen to them).

I don\'t understand why you would need \"continuous\", then.
Or, do you mean continuous operation (like just keep feeding
in material and score it, later)?

Yes, it was supposed to be a continuous process. As only one side
needed to be glossy the idea was to have a continuous slow-moving band
of laminating material, sticky side up, and place the cards on it
face-downwards so they would be drawn through the rollers and laminated.

OK. Then, afterwards, separate the units -- instead of laminating them
AS individual units. (which is how I\'d handle it with my laminator)

The main failing was the tendency for the band to veer to one side
because the rollers bowed slightly in the middle under pressure. It was
rather like the way of keeping a flat belt centred on pulleys, the
pulley faces need to be slightly \'barrelled\' - but in this case the
rollers were effectively \'waisted\', giving the opposite effect, so the
band could not be kept on centre.

Hmmm... I wonder how mine would fare if tasked with processing
something \"long\"? Over the course of 17-20 inches, I don\'t
see much skew/slippage -- the bigger problem is having the package
get sucked into the rollers before I\'ve lined it up properly
(\"reverse\" is tedious)

A lot of background research went into the acetate QR code project,
hence the test pieces still on my garden wall. Nobody spotted the
mobile \'phone reception problem until the project was well advanced.

Kinda seems like someone skipped a step in the process, eh? :

Very few people has smart \'phones in those days, so we had to beg those
who did have them to test our system.

But, you could have verified signal with regular flip phones (?)

We were more concerned to get the
software right at that point in the project and couldn\'t ask our
press-ganged testers to spend hours wandering along muddy footpaths
(even if we had realised there might be a problem).

My goal, today, is to get to service bureau to see what they can
do for me

They will be the people with the widest experience of different
materials.

Sadly, I slept the day away. :< Every so often, the body insists
on catching up on the sleep deficit -- inadequately. :-/ But,
there\'s always \"tomorrow\"... (The Pork Dish day!)

 

[Don Y]

On 1/7/2023 9:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/7/2023 4:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
My original reason for making a continuous laminator was to manufacture
glossy, gunge-poof, cardboard CD covers for a special children\'s talking
book issue. The project never came to fruition (market research showed
that nobody could be bothered to listen to them).

I don\'t understand why you would need \"continuous\", then.
Or, do you mean continuous operation (like just keep feeding
in material and score it, later)?

Yes, it was supposed to be a continuous process. As only one side
needed to be glossy the idea was to have a continuous slow-moving band
of laminating material, sticky side up, and place the cards on it
face-downwards so they would be drawn through the rollers and laminated.

OK. Then, afterwards, separate the units -- instead of laminating them
AS individual units. (which is how I\'d handle it with my laminator)

The main failing was the tendency for the band to veer to one side
because the rollers bowed slightly in the middle under pressure. It was
rather like the way of keeping a flat belt centred on pulleys, the
pulley faces need to be slightly \'barrelled\' - but in this case the
rollers were effectively \'waisted\', giving the opposite effect, so the
band could not be kept on centre.

Hmmm... I wonder how mine would fare if tasked with processing
something \"long\"? Over the course of 17-20 inches, I don\'t
see much skew/slippage -- the bigger problem is having the package
get sucked into the rollers before I\'ve lined it up properly
(\"reverse\" is tedious)

A lot of background research went into the acetate QR code project,
hence the test pieces still on my garden wall. Nobody spotted the
mobile \'phone reception problem until the project was well advanced.

Kinda seems like someone skipped a step in the process, eh? :

Very few people has smart \'phones in those days, so we had to beg those
who did have them to test our system.

But, you could have verified signal with regular flip phones (?)

We were more concerned to get the
software right at that point in the project and couldn\'t ask our
press-ganged testers to spend hours wandering along muddy footpaths
(even if we had realised there might be a problem).

My goal, today, is to get to service bureau to see what they can
do for me

They will be the people with the widest experience of different
materials.

Sadly, I slept the day away. :< Every so often, the body insists
on catching up on the sleep deficit -- inadequately. :-/ But,
there\'s always \"tomorrow\"... (The Pork Dish day!)

 

[Don Y]

On 1/7/2023 9:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/7/2023 4:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
My original reason for making a continuous laminator was to manufacture
glossy, gunge-poof, cardboard CD covers for a special children\'s talking
book issue. The project never came to fruition (market research showed
that nobody could be bothered to listen to them).

I don\'t understand why you would need \"continuous\", then.
Or, do you mean continuous operation (like just keep feeding
in material and score it, later)?

Yes, it was supposed to be a continuous process. As only one side
needed to be glossy the idea was to have a continuous slow-moving band
of laminating material, sticky side up, and place the cards on it
face-downwards so they would be drawn through the rollers and laminated.

OK. Then, afterwards, separate the units -- instead of laminating them
AS individual units. (which is how I\'d handle it with my laminator)

The main failing was the tendency for the band to veer to one side
because the rollers bowed slightly in the middle under pressure. It was
rather like the way of keeping a flat belt centred on pulleys, the
pulley faces need to be slightly \'barrelled\' - but in this case the
rollers were effectively \'waisted\', giving the opposite effect, so the
band could not be kept on centre.

Hmmm... I wonder how mine would fare if tasked with processing
something \"long\"? Over the course of 17-20 inches, I don\'t
see much skew/slippage -- the bigger problem is having the package
get sucked into the rollers before I\'ve lined it up properly
(\"reverse\" is tedious)

A lot of background research went into the acetate QR code project,
hence the test pieces still on my garden wall. Nobody spotted the
mobile \'phone reception problem until the project was well advanced.

Kinda seems like someone skipped a step in the process, eh? :

Very few people has smart \'phones in those days, so we had to beg those
who did have them to test our system.

But, you could have verified signal with regular flip phones (?)

We were more concerned to get the
software right at that point in the project and couldn\'t ask our
press-ganged testers to spend hours wandering along muddy footpaths
(even if we had realised there might be a problem).

My goal, today, is to get to service bureau to see what they can
do for me

They will be the people with the widest experience of different
materials.

Sadly, I slept the day away. :< Every so often, the body insists
on catching up on the sleep deficit -- inadequately. :-/ But,
there\'s always \"tomorrow\"... (The Pork Dish day!)

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

This would complicate the process. But, I\'m guessing
that printing on the back might, by itself, be enough to
give some degree of durability (?)

I have used back-printed overhead projector acetates as equipment front
panels and outdoor notices for many years and they have proved
surprisingly durable. They have not been subjected to abrasion, but
have been exposed to direct sunlight, vandals and even chewed by cows
(they didn\'t resist that very well).

My printer is a laser type, so only heatproof acetates can be used.
When they have been printed, I spray the printed side with white
cellulose car paint to show up the image and make the colours come up
good and strong. The paint coats must be very light with plenty of time
to dry between coats, otherwise the toner will dissolve and run.

Before going to the trouble of printing anything, why don\'t you just
take a plain sheet of acetate and scrub it heavily for some while - any
scratches will soon start to show when you hold it up to the light.
From that you can deduce how long it will last, but as the sheets are so
cheap you can print lots of spares.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

This would complicate the process. But, I\'m guessing
that printing on the back might, by itself, be enough to
give some degree of durability (?)

I have used back-printed overhead projector acetates as equipment front
panels and outdoor notices for many years and they have proved
surprisingly durable. They have not been subjected to abrasion, but
have been exposed to direct sunlight, vandals and even chewed by cows
(they didn\'t resist that very well).

My printer is a laser type, so only heatproof acetates can be used.
When they have been printed, I spray the printed side with white
cellulose car paint to show up the image and make the colours come up
good and strong. The paint coats must be very light with plenty of time
to dry between coats, otherwise the toner will dissolve and run.

Before going to the trouble of printing anything, why don\'t you just
take a plain sheet of acetate and scrub it heavily for some while - any
scratches will soon start to show when you hold it up to the light.
From that you can deduce how long it will last, but as the sheets are so
cheap you can print lots of spares.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

This would complicate the process. But, I\'m guessing
that printing on the back might, by itself, be enough to
give some degree of durability (?)

I have used back-printed overhead projector acetates as equipment front
panels and outdoor notices for many years and they have proved
surprisingly durable. They have not been subjected to abrasion, but
have been exposed to direct sunlight, vandals and even chewed by cows
(they didn\'t resist that very well).

My printer is a laser type, so only heatproof acetates can be used.
When they have been printed, I spray the printed side with white
cellulose car paint to show up the image and make the colours come up
good and strong. The paint coats must be very light with plenty of time
to dry between coats, otherwise the toner will dissolve and run.

Before going to the trouble of printing anything, why don\'t you just
take a plain sheet of acetate and scrub it heavily for some while - any
scratches will soon start to show when you hold it up to the light.
From that you can deduce how long it will last, but as the sheets are so
cheap you can print lots of spares.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/5/2023 10:10 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
I have used back-printed overhead projector acetates as equipment front
panels and outdoor notices for many years and they have proved

\"outdoor notices\"?

Signage for a canal restoration project. Every sign needed to be
different and each one carried an unique QR code, so we couldn\'t afford
the setting-up costs of having them professionally printed.

We have also produced waymarks for \"The Coal Canal Way\" footpath. We
bought a batch of professional waymarks printed on polycarbonate but
found that in many locations we needed to wrap them around tubular metal
posts and the polycarbonate could only be set in a curve by a tedious
heat process. The acetate sheets could be wrapped around the post and
fixed with double-sided sticky tape as long as the area was thoroughly
cleaned with isopropanol first.

[...]

If I use a puck, then it\'s underside is typically felt lined
so likely less wear on the template surface. OTOH, there\'s a lot
more (puck) surface doing the wearing! :

The pressure will be distributed over a larger surface area, so the wear
might not be any worse. Beware a soft material like felt picking up
hard debris and scratching badly. A steel shaft in a brass bearing is
the classic example of that: the shaft wears more than the the brass
because of the abrasive debris that gets embedded in the brass.

[...]

The \"plastic\" (?) that AutoCAD uses is really pretty thick -- I can
hold the template by one edge and it won\'t deflect under it\'s own
weight (by contrast, acetate is a limp noodle)

We often fixed our \'outdoor\' notices onto a backing of fluted
polycarbonate boards of the type used by estate agents. We used
silicone mastic as the adhesive to avoid dissolving the printing. The
result probably wouldn\'t be smooth enough for your application.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/5/2023 10:10 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
I have used back-printed overhead projector acetates as equipment front
panels and outdoor notices for many years and they have proved

\"outdoor notices\"?

Signage for a canal restoration project. Every sign needed to be
different and each one carried an unique QR code, so we couldn\'t afford
the setting-up costs of having them professionally printed.

We have also produced waymarks for \"The Coal Canal Way\" footpath. We
bought a batch of professional waymarks printed on polycarbonate but
found that in many locations we needed to wrap them around tubular metal
posts and the polycarbonate could only be set in a curve by a tedious
heat process. The acetate sheets could be wrapped around the post and
fixed with double-sided sticky tape as long as the area was thoroughly
cleaned with isopropanol first.

[...]

If I use a puck, then it\'s underside is typically felt lined
so likely less wear on the template surface. OTOH, there\'s a lot
more (puck) surface doing the wearing! :

The pressure will be distributed over a larger surface area, so the wear
might not be any worse. Beware a soft material like felt picking up
hard debris and scratching badly. A steel shaft in a brass bearing is
the classic example of that: the shaft wears more than the the brass
because of the abrasive debris that gets embedded in the brass.

[...]

The \"plastic\" (?) that AutoCAD uses is really pretty thick -- I can
hold the template by one edge and it won\'t deflect under it\'s own
weight (by contrast, acetate is a limp noodle)

We often fixed our \'outdoor\' notices onto a backing of fluted
polycarbonate boards of the type used by estate agents. We used
silicone mastic as the adhesive to avoid dissolving the printing. The
result probably wouldn\'t be smooth enough for your application.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/5/2023 10:10 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
I have used back-printed overhead projector acetates as equipment front
panels and outdoor notices for many years and they have proved

\"outdoor notices\"?

Signage for a canal restoration project. Every sign needed to be
different and each one carried an unique QR code, so we couldn\'t afford
the setting-up costs of having them professionally printed.

We have also produced waymarks for \"The Coal Canal Way\" footpath. We
bought a batch of professional waymarks printed on polycarbonate but
found that in many locations we needed to wrap them around tubular metal
posts and the polycarbonate could only be set in a curve by a tedious
heat process. The acetate sheets could be wrapped around the post and
fixed with double-sided sticky tape as long as the area was thoroughly
cleaned with isopropanol first.

[...]

If I use a puck, then it\'s underside is typically felt lined
so likely less wear on the template surface. OTOH, there\'s a lot
more (puck) surface doing the wearing! :

The pressure will be distributed over a larger surface area, so the wear
might not be any worse. Beware a soft material like felt picking up
hard debris and scratching badly. A steel shaft in a brass bearing is
the classic example of that: the shaft wears more than the the brass
because of the abrasive debris that gets embedded in the brass.

[...]

The \"plastic\" (?) that AutoCAD uses is really pretty thick -- I can
hold the template by one edge and it won\'t deflect under it\'s own
weight (by contrast, acetate is a limp noodle)

We often fixed our \'outdoor\' notices onto a backing of fluted
polycarbonate boards of the type used by estate agents. We used
silicone mastic as the adhesive to avoid dissolving the printing. The
result probably wouldn\'t be smooth enough for your application.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Don Y]

On 1/7/2023 4:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/6/2023 2:07 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
Some of our first QR Code \'targets\' are still readable after 5 years.

Plastics left out-of-doors, here, turn brittle in short order.
Folks quickly learn not to leave anything *in* plastic containers
as the containers just crack (spilling their contents). E.g.,
the fire-starting-liquid for the barbecue is in an old wine bottle,
here. The original plastic containers cracking (spilling flammable
fluid) in less time than it took to consume their contents!

I don\'t know how acetate would fare...

[where are you? or, where are the signs??]

I\'m in Bath (UK) and one of my trial signs is on a wall in my back
garden facing East-of-South, where it would get the maximum sunshine if
we ever had any. It has survived about 5 years but is beginning to show
signs of deterioration now. Most of the on-site ones succumbed to
vandalism before they had a chance to become brittle.

Ah. I\'m in SW USA. Hot and sunny, all year \'round (actually, it\'s dropped to
about 20C, lately; 27C a week back...).

The others are sacttered along the Somersetshire Coal Canal, attached to
various surfaces and facing in various directions. Only cast-iron
finger posts and milestone plates seem to survive for decades in that
environment (until the scrap price of iron is high enough).

[...]
The adhesive is hot-melt glue and it is activated with a device like a
miniature domestic mangle, which squeezes out the air pockets...

Heh heh hee... there\'s a word I\'ve not heard in many decades!
\"Wringer\" perhaps being more common, here.

Both words conjure up visions of muscular washerwomen, shrouded in
steam, vigorously attacking robust unidentifiable items of clothing.

Sure beats bancing them on a rock!

...You can buy small home
laminators which use ready-made lamination pockets; the commercial
laminators use the laminating material in bulk from a roll, which works
out cheaper if you have a lot to do.

[...]
My expectation is that the item will be discarded long before the note
shows signs of wear!

My original reason for making a continuous laminator was to manufacture
glossy, gunge-poof, cardboard CD covers for a special children\'s talking
book issue. The project never came to fruition (market research showed
that nobody could be bothered to listen to them).

I don\'t understand why you would need \"continuous\", then.
Or, do you mean continuous operation (like just keep feeding
in material and score it, later)?

A lot of background research went into the acetate QR code project,
hence the test pieces still on my garden wall. Nobody spotted the
mobile \'phone reception problem until the project was well advanced.

Kinda seems like someone skipped a step in the process, eh? :>

However, it meant that the technology was tried and tested when we
started to find the need for explanatory and footpath diversion notices
to keep people informed as we began major canal reair work. With the
addition of fluted polypropylene backing board and some wooden posts, we
quickly adapted it to our needs.

My goal, today, is to get to service bureau to see what they can
do for me -- armed with samples of what I already have (and am
aiming for).

Also need to track down a source of \"lexan\" so may see if they
have some really thin sheets that I can use, as well.

 

[Don Y]

On 1/7/2023 4:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/6/2023 2:07 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
Some of our first QR Code \'targets\' are still readable after 5 years.

Plastics left out-of-doors, here, turn brittle in short order.
Folks quickly learn not to leave anything *in* plastic containers
as the containers just crack (spilling their contents). E.g.,
the fire-starting-liquid for the barbecue is in an old wine bottle,
here. The original plastic containers cracking (spilling flammable
fluid) in less time than it took to consume their contents!

I don\'t know how acetate would fare...

[where are you? or, where are the signs??]

I\'m in Bath (UK) and one of my trial signs is on a wall in my back
garden facing East-of-South, where it would get the maximum sunshine if
we ever had any. It has survived about 5 years but is beginning to show
signs of deterioration now. Most of the on-site ones succumbed to
vandalism before they had a chance to become brittle.

Ah. I\'m in SW USA. Hot and sunny, all year \'round (actually, it\'s dropped to
about 20C, lately; 27C a week back...).

The others are sacttered along the Somersetshire Coal Canal, attached to
various surfaces and facing in various directions. Only cast-iron
finger posts and milestone plates seem to survive for decades in that
environment (until the scrap price of iron is high enough).

[...]
The adhesive is hot-melt glue and it is activated with a device like a
miniature domestic mangle, which squeezes out the air pockets...

Heh heh hee... there\'s a word I\'ve not heard in many decades!
\"Wringer\" perhaps being more common, here.

Both words conjure up visions of muscular washerwomen, shrouded in
steam, vigorously attacking robust unidentifiable items of clothing.

Sure beats bancing them on a rock!

...You can buy small home
laminators which use ready-made lamination pockets; the commercial
laminators use the laminating material in bulk from a roll, which works
out cheaper if you have a lot to do.

[...]
My expectation is that the item will be discarded long before the note
shows signs of wear!

My original reason for making a continuous laminator was to manufacture
glossy, gunge-poof, cardboard CD covers for a special children\'s talking
book issue. The project never came to fruition (market research showed
that nobody could be bothered to listen to them).

I don\'t understand why you would need \"continuous\", then.
Or, do you mean continuous operation (like just keep feeding
in material and score it, later)?

A lot of background research went into the acetate QR code project,
hence the test pieces still on my garden wall. Nobody spotted the
mobile \'phone reception problem until the project was well advanced.

Kinda seems like someone skipped a step in the process, eh? :>

However, it meant that the technology was tried and tested when we
started to find the need for explanatory and footpath diversion notices
to keep people informed as we began major canal reair work. With the
addition of fluted polypropylene backing board and some wooden posts, we
quickly adapted it to our needs.

My goal, today, is to get to service bureau to see what they can
do for me -- armed with samples of what I already have (and am
aiming for).

Also need to track down a source of \"lexan\" so may see if they
have some really thin sheets that I can use, as well.

 

[Don Y]

On 1/7/2023 4:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/6/2023 2:07 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
Some of our first QR Code \'targets\' are still readable after 5 years.

Plastics left out-of-doors, here, turn brittle in short order.
Folks quickly learn not to leave anything *in* plastic containers
as the containers just crack (spilling their contents). E.g.,
the fire-starting-liquid for the barbecue is in an old wine bottle,
here. The original plastic containers cracking (spilling flammable
fluid) in less time than it took to consume their contents!

I don\'t know how acetate would fare...

[where are you? or, where are the signs??]

I\'m in Bath (UK) and one of my trial signs is on a wall in my back
garden facing East-of-South, where it would get the maximum sunshine if
we ever had any. It has survived about 5 years but is beginning to show
signs of deterioration now. Most of the on-site ones succumbed to
vandalism before they had a chance to become brittle.

Ah. I\'m in SW USA. Hot and sunny, all year \'round (actually, it\'s dropped to
about 20C, lately; 27C a week back...).

The others are sacttered along the Somersetshire Coal Canal, attached to
various surfaces and facing in various directions. Only cast-iron
finger posts and milestone plates seem to survive for decades in that
environment (until the scrap price of iron is high enough).

[...]
The adhesive is hot-melt glue and it is activated with a device like a
miniature domestic mangle, which squeezes out the air pockets...

Heh heh hee... there\'s a word I\'ve not heard in many decades!
\"Wringer\" perhaps being more common, here.

Both words conjure up visions of muscular washerwomen, shrouded in
steam, vigorously attacking robust unidentifiable items of clothing.

Sure beats bancing them on a rock!

...You can buy small home
laminators which use ready-made lamination pockets; the commercial
laminators use the laminating material in bulk from a roll, which works
out cheaper if you have a lot to do.

[...]
My expectation is that the item will be discarded long before the note
shows signs of wear!

My original reason for making a continuous laminator was to manufacture
glossy, gunge-poof, cardboard CD covers for a special children\'s talking
book issue. The project never came to fruition (market research showed
that nobody could be bothered to listen to them).

I don\'t understand why you would need \"continuous\", then.
Or, do you mean continuous operation (like just keep feeding
in material and score it, later)?

A lot of background research went into the acetate QR code project,
hence the test pieces still on my garden wall. Nobody spotted the
mobile \'phone reception problem until the project was well advanced.

Kinda seems like someone skipped a step in the process, eh? :>

However, it meant that the technology was tried and tested when we
started to find the need for explanatory and footpath diversion notices
to keep people informed as we began major canal reair work. With the
addition of fluted polypropylene backing board and some wooden posts, we
quickly adapted it to our needs.

My goal, today, is to get to service bureau to see what they can
do for me -- armed with samples of what I already have (and am
aiming for).

Also need to track down a source of \"lexan\" so may see if they
have some really thin sheets that I can use, as well.

 

[Don Y]

On 1/6/2023 2:04 PM, whit3rd wrote:

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 7:43:16 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
On 1/5/2023 4:35 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 1:48:32 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
On 1/5/2023 9:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:
I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.

AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)

There are service bureaus here that can make washable durable adhesive labels on
mylar, for a price. Polycarbonate is another available option. Probably
something more complicated than a laser printer...

Don\'t want labels as they\'d present an uneven surface (if applied to the top)
and \"look tacky\" if pieced together on the underside.

Oh, they have a printing process that can generate non-adhesive
printed-on-back film.

That would make sense if durability was an issue -- assuming the front
surface to be more \"at risk\" for printing than the rear.

The \'laser printer\' solutions, though, are usually
acetate or mylar with a film on one side that takes some particular kind
of pigment well; not intended for durability, unless you sandwich with a bottom film
of some sort. I suspect the label-build process is good for what you want.

I\'m talking about a full-size single print, not a pasteup of dozens of small labels.

I\'m going to bring my \"samples\" to them, tomorrow, and see what they can offer
(in terms of printing quality as well as \"thickness/stiffness\" of material).
I don\'t want to get started on the graphics until I know I can render them
into a useful form...

 

[Don Y]

On 1/6/2023 2:04 PM, whit3rd wrote:

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 7:43:16 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
On 1/5/2023 4:35 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 1:48:32 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
On 1/5/2023 9:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:
I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.

AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)

There are service bureaus here that can make washable durable adhesive labels on
mylar, for a price. Polycarbonate is another available option. Probably
something more complicated than a laser printer...

Don\'t want labels as they\'d present an uneven surface (if applied to the top)
and \"look tacky\" if pieced together on the underside.

Oh, they have a printing process that can generate non-adhesive
printed-on-back film.

That would make sense if durability was an issue -- assuming the front
surface to be more \"at risk\" for printing than the rear.

The \'laser printer\' solutions, though, are usually
acetate or mylar with a film on one side that takes some particular kind
of pigment well; not intended for durability, unless you sandwich with a bottom film
of some sort. I suspect the label-build process is good for what you want.

I\'m talking about a full-size single print, not a pasteup of dozens of small labels.

I\'m going to bring my \"samples\" to them, tomorrow, and see what they can offer
(in terms of printing quality as well as \"thickness/stiffness\" of material).
I don\'t want to get started on the graphics until I know I can render them
into a useful form...

 

[Don Y]

On 1/6/2023 2:04 PM, whit3rd wrote:

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 7:43:16 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
On 1/5/2023 4:35 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 1:48:32 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
On 1/5/2023 9:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:
I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.

AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)

There are service bureaus here that can make washable durable adhesive labels on
mylar, for a price. Polycarbonate is another available option. Probably
something more complicated than a laser printer...

Don\'t want labels as they\'d present an uneven surface (if applied to the top)
and \"look tacky\" if pieced together on the underside.

Oh, they have a printing process that can generate non-adhesive
printed-on-back film.

That would make sense if durability was an issue -- assuming the front
surface to be more \"at risk\" for printing than the rear.

The \'laser printer\' solutions, though, are usually
acetate or mylar with a film on one side that takes some particular kind
of pigment well; not intended for durability, unless you sandwich with a bottom film
of some sort. I suspect the label-build process is good for what you want.

I\'m talking about a full-size single print, not a pasteup of dozens of small labels.

I\'m going to bring my \"samples\" to them, tomorrow, and see what they can offer
(in terms of printing quality as well as \"thickness/stiffness\" of material).
I don\'t want to get started on the graphics until I know I can render them
into a useful form...

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/7/2023 4:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
My original reason for making a continuous laminator was to manufacture
glossy, gunge-poof, cardboard CD covers for a special children\'s talking
book issue. The project never came to fruition (market research showed
that nobody could be bothered to listen to them).

I don\'t understand why you would need \"continuous\", then.
Or, do you mean continuous operation (like just keep feeding
in material and score it, later)?

Yes, it was supposed to be a continuous process. As only one side
needed to be glossy the idea was to have a continuous slow-moving band
of laminating material, sticky side up, and place the cards on it
face-downwards so they would be drawn through the rollers and laminated.

The main failing was the tendency for the band to veer to one side
because the rollers bowed slightly in the middle under pressure. It was
rather like the way of keeping a flat belt centred on pulleys, the
pulley faces need to be slightly \'barrelled\' - but in this case the
rollers were effectively \'waisted\', giving the opposite effect, so the
band could not be kept on centre.

A lot of background research went into the acetate QR code project,
hence the test pieces still on my garden wall. Nobody spotted the
mobile \'phone reception problem until the project was well advanced.

Kinda seems like someone skipped a step in the process, eh? :

Very few people has smart \'phones in those days, so we had to beg those
who did have them to test our system. We were more concerned to get the
software right at that point in the project and couldn\'t ask our
press-ganged testers to spend hours wandering along muddy footpaths
(even if we had realised there might be a problem).

[...]

My goal, today, is to get to service bureau to see what they can
do for me

They will be the people with the widest experience of different
materials.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk