Power factor and domestic electricity billing in the UK?

[Ian Field]

"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:c5r5v.119995$nm4.52762@fx27.iad...

On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 21/04/14 05:03, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:17:45 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 18/04/14 22:45, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:48:36 +0100, Daniel
dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:



Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak
of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is *Switched
On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the supply's output
(Current/Voltage) is falling below the required (Current/Voltage), the
Switching element/transistor is switched on for more of the input cycle,
not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour tellies.

 

[Daniel]

On 20/05/14 07:06, Ian Field wrote:

"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:c5r5v.119995$nm4.52762@fx27.iad...
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

<Snip>

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour
tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck regulators",
I say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American T.V. sit-com
from about the eighties!!)

Daniel

 

[Daniel]

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:

"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:vi84v.62218$%x6.40968@fx16.iad...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:
Can someone confirm that power factor is NOT taken into consideration
for domestic supplies? I have a feeling it isn't, but I can't find
any
information on the internet. If it matters, it's a modern (<5 years
old) electronic meter I have. The power factor in my house is an
average of 0.7 so depending if it's charged for or not, my bill
could be
completely different.

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

> AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

In the 80s there were hundreds of thousands of TVs with half wave
thyristor buck regulators - the generating companies weren't happy.

Daniel

 

[Uncle Peter]

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote:

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:vi84v.62218$%x6.40968@fx16.iad...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't cancel out clipping.


--
There are 2 kinds of people in this world. Those that want to get ahead, and those that just want to get head.

 

[Ian Field]

"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:saGev.2055562$pa5.723594@fx23.iad...

On 20/05/14 07:06, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:c5r5v.119995$nm4.52762@fx27.iad...
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

Snip

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour
tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck regulators", I
say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American T.V. sit-com from
about the eighties!!)

I'm beginning to get the impression that trying to explain it to you would
be tedious and futile.

 

[Ian Field]

"Uncle Peter" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
newsp.xf5xhtkzswtmtb@red.lan...

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:vi84v.62218$%x6.40968@fx16.iad...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed"
there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to
handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory)
would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at
the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty PFC
capacitor in there to filter spikes.

 

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,

They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge) and
run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only matters for
the overall load. The type of load does matter.

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction, Note
that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on the grid
and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it does cost
them /something/.

On Tue, 20 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't cancel
out clipping.

But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may create a
nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not what power
factor refers to.

Ron

 

[Ian Field]

<colonel_hack@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1405200925160.13722@bunrab...

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,
They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge) and
run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only matters for
the overall load. The type of load does matter.

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.
Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction, Note
that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on the grid
and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it does cost
them /something/.

On Tue, 20 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.
But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may create a
nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not what power
factor refers to.

Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have become
trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF issue.

In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the rectifier
tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as power factor
correction.

 

[Daniel]

On 21/05/14 02:17, Ian Field wrote:

"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:saGev.2055562$pa5.723594@fx23.iad...
On 20/05/14 07:06, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:c5r5v.119995$nm4.52762@fx27.iad...
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

Snip

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour
tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck
regulators", I say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American
T.V. sit-com from about the eighties!!)

I'm beginning to get the impression that trying to explain it to you
would be tedious and futile.

See above were I explain the operation of SMPS, which is what Uncle
Peter was originally talking about.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_mode_power_supply

Sorry if you consider it "tedious and futile".

Daniel

 

[Daniel]

On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:

"Uncle Peter" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
newsp.xf5xhtkzswtmtb@red.lan...
On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:vi84v.62218$%x6.40968@fx16.iad...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel
dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed"
there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to
handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory)
would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes
at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Daniel

 

[Daniel]

On 21/05/14 06:27, colonel_hack@yahoo.com wrote:

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,
They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge) and
run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only matters
for the overall load. The type of load does matter.

Yes, your T.V. switches on and stays on for three hours, maybe, before
it's switched off. Meanwhile your 10-15-20 neighbours have also turned
on their T.V.'s and turned them off.

And your Fridge has turned on and, later, off. And your 10-15-20
neighbours' Fridges.

Etc., Etc., Etc..

The waveform on your power lines is a very complex thing!!

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.
Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction,
Note that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on
the grid and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it
does cost them /something/.

It alters the phase angle between Voltage and Current in the Power
System, which will, eventually, require the power company to take
corrective action .... which they then bill *you* for, by way of
increasing the cost of power.

Daniel

 

[Daniel]

On 21/05/14 06:38, Ian Field wrote:

colonel_hack@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1405200925160.13722@bunrab...

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,
They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge)
and run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only
matters for the overall load. The type of load does matter.

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.
Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction,
Note that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on
the grid and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it
does cost them /something/.

On Tue, 20 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You
can't cancel out clipping.
But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may
create a nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not
what power factor refers to.

Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have
become trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF issue.

In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the
rectifier tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as
power factor correction.

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

Daniel

 

[Uncle Peter]

On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:26:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote:

On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:


"Uncle Peter" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
newsp.xf5xhtkzswtmtb@red.lan...
On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:vi84v.62218$%x6.40968@fx16.iad...




Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one probably wore out.

--
You know you're getting old when:
Your friends compliment you on your new alligator shoes and you're barefoot.

 

[Uncle Peter]

On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:40:41 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote:

On 21/05/14 06:38, Ian Field wrote:


colonel_hack@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1405200925160.13722@bunrab...

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,
They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge)
and run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only
matters for the overall load. The type of load does matter.

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.
Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction,
Note that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on
the grid and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it
does cost them /something/.

On Tue, 20 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You
can't cancel out clipping.
But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may
create a nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not
what power factor refers to.

Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have
become trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF issue.

In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the
rectifier tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as
power factor correction.

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

No it isn't. It's a very good measurement of actual power produced versus heating in the wires. For example I had 5kW of computers with shitty "what you don't call PF", and the extension cable was getting warm at 2/3rds of it's rated load. It only gets that warm at 1.5 times its rated load with heaters.

--
The dot over the letter i is called a tittle.

 

[Ian Field]

"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:cU0fv.139592$QE3.67093@fx16.iad...

On 21/05/14 02:17, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:saGev.2055562$pa5.723594@fx23.iad...
On 20/05/14 07:06, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:c5r5v.119995$nm4.52762@fx27.iad...
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel
dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

Snip

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour
tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck
regulators", I say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American
T.V. sit-com from about the eighties!!)

I'm beginning to get the impression that trying to explain it to you
would be tedious and futile.

See above were I explain the operation of SMPS, which is what Uncle Peter
was originally talking about.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_mode_power_supply

When you start on about phase control in a discussion on SMPSU and PFC,
there aren't many conclusions to be drawn!

 

[Ian Field]

"Uncle Peter" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
newsp.xf7mvhqlswtmtb@red.lan...

On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:26:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:


"Uncle Peter" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
newsp.xf5xhtkzswtmtb@red.lan...
On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:vi84v.62218$%x6.40968@fx16.iad...




Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it
up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's,
T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one
probably wore out.

The fuckwit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could piss!

I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at least the
light came on eventually without a major drama.

When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.

When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a couple of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I mentioned
on chatter.

 

[Ian Field]

"Daniel" <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:891fv.790523$RX7.134493@fx24.iad...

On 21/05/14 06:38, Ian Field wrote:


colonel_hack@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1405200925160.13722@bunrab...

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au> wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's,
T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,
They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge)
and run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only
matters for the overall load. The type of load does matter.

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.
Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction,
Note that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on
the grid and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it
does cost them /something/.

On Tue, 20 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You
can't cancel out clipping.
But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may
create a nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not
what power factor refers to.

Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have
become trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF
issue.

In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the
rectifier tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as
power factor correction.

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

Nevertheless - your OPINION appears to be in the minority.

 

[Uncle Peter]

On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Uncle Peter" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
newsp.xf7mvhqlswtmtb@red.lan...
On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:26:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:


"Uncle Peter" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
newsp.xf5xhtkzswtmtb@red.lan...
On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:







Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one
probably wore out.

The fuckwit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could piss!

I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at least the
light came on eventually without a major drama.

When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.

When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a couple of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and fit something that takes LEDs.

--
A budget is just a method of worrying before you spend money, as well as afterwards.

 

[Ian Field]

"Uncle Peter" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
newsp.xf7uuanlswtmtb@red.lan...

On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
newsp.xf7mvhqlswtmtb@red.lan...
On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:26:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:


"Uncle Peter" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
newsp.xf5xhtkzswtmtb@red.lan...
On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:







Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You
can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the
hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one
probably wore out.

The fuckwit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could piss!

I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at least
the
light came on eventually without a major drama.

When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.

When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a couple
of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I
mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and fit
something that takes LEDs.

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the bog - I
only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the kitchen
too.

A few years ago Morrisons did a special offer of CFLs for 99p - then
extended the offer to buy one get one free, at that price I filled a couple
of carrier bags.

While LED bulbs are still at least Ł9.99 and I'd need 3 to give the same
light as a CFL, there isn't much incentive to make the change.

There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed unit that
I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I bought
replacement parts, there weren't the options that are available now.

Might start visiting the dump again - if I can salvage a few GU10 fittings,
Home Bargains sometimes have 5W bulbs that are allegedly equal to 40W - 3 of
those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

Just out of curiosity - does a GU10 fit in the socket for a florescent
starter?

 

[Uncle Peter]

On Wed, 21 May 2014 20:25:54 +0100, Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Uncle Peter" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
newsp.xf7uuanlswtmtb@red.lan...
On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field
gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:



"Uncle Peter" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
newsp.xf7mvhqlswtmtb@red.lan...
On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:26:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm@albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:








Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one
probably wore out.

The fuckwit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could piss!

I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at least
the
light came on eventually without a major drama.

When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.

When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a couple
of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I
mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and fit
something that takes LEDs.

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the bog - I
only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the kitchen
too.

Who gives a fuck what they insist on? When he leaves, remove it.

A few years ago Morrisons did a special offer of CFLs for 99p - then
extended the offer to buy one get one free, at that price I filled a couple
of carrier bags.

While LED bulbs are still at least Ł9.99 and I'd need 3 to give the same
light as a CFL, there isn't much incentive to make the change.

Ł15 gives you 150W equivalent. Ł10 gives you 100W equivalent. Ł3 gives you 50W equivalent. And that's including postage.

There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed unit that
I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I bought
replacement parts, there weren't the options that are available now.

Might start visiting the dump again - if I can salvage a few GU10 fittings,
Home Bargains sometimes have 5W bulbs that are allegedly equal to 40W - 3 of
those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

LEDs that fit in GU10s run very hot and don't last long. I've gone off CREE LEDs and go for the corn on the cob ones. Hundreds of tiny SMD LEDs.

Just out of curiosity - does a GU10 fit in the socket for a florescent
starter?

I can't tell you that as I gave away my 4 spare starters on freecycle, and for some reason the only remaining ballast fluorescent here (under a kitchen wall unit) has no starter I can see. Unless it's hidden on the side against the floor of the cupboard, or internal. They do look similar sockets though.

--
I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same god who has given us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use, giving us by some other means the information that we could gain through them -- Galileo Galilei