P2P sharing of service manual PDF's

M

Mark D. Zacharias

Guest
Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care about
this.

I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video manuals
available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as well.

Example:

Search for pioneer vsx pdf would list any available PDF's on pioneer
receivers.


Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
 
P.S.

I checked and people are already doing this for manuals for computer games,
Honda car shop manuals, you name it.

mz

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> wrote in message
news:2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de...
Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care about
this.

I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video manuals
available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as well.

Example:

Search for pioneer vsx pdf would list any available PDF's on pioneer
receivers.


Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
Click to expand...
 
In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:

Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care
about this.
Click to expand...
I assume you are talking about service manuals.

I would like to see a statement from the manufacturers to approve this
sort of activity. Many are shy about sharing service info. I'm not near
my manuals at the moment, but I remember most of them as being
copyrighted or at least considered to be "proprietory" by the
manufacturers.

I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video
manuals available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as
well.
Click to expand...
I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
to read. How would you handle large schematics? Most of my manuals have
large pullout drawings. Redrawn and retyped manuals would be useful,
but it is a *HUGE* project.

When I need a manual, I need it NOW. I'd hate to wait for the
respective manual hosting system to come online. Also, there are often
some very useful bulletins that are not part of the manuals. Sometimes
bulletins can save weeks of head scratching when faced with an obscure
intermittent problem.

Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I prefer printed manuals. I also prefer
manuals that are maintained by the manufacturer. Assuming we could lash
together an army of a few thousand contributors and fairly divide the
manual preparation work, I don't think we could trust that the manuals
are or could be kept up to date. For example, if a local Joe purchased
a manual for model XYZ a few years ago and put it online, I doubt if
the manufacturer will notify Joe if there is a future bulletin or
manual correction issued for that model.

In terms of user manuals, many manufacturers are providing current
model user manuals online. I assume that they will continue this
service for future models and keep the current stuff online until they
run out of disk space. I don't expect manufacturers to go through their
archives and reprint manuals for long discontinued products.

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: uce@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------
 
See comments inserted. - mz



"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:

Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care
about this.

I assume you are talking about service manuals.

I would like to see a statement from the manufacturers to approve this
sort of activity. Many are shy about sharing service info. I'm not near
my manuals at the moment, but I remember most of them as being
copyrighted or at least considered to be "proprietory" by the
manufacturers.
Click to expand...
I think manufactuers are much more blase' about this these days, with few
manuals having any copyright. Just less work for them to do support-wise.

I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video
manuals available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as
well.

I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
to read. How would you handle large schematics?
Click to expand...
Better than nothing, I would say.
The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY.
Some are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit board
location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again, and it goes to
the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section, that's easy to do.


Most of my manuals have
large pullout drawings. Redrawn and retyped manuals would be useful,
but it is a *HUGE* project.

When I need a manual, I need it NOW. I'd hate to wait for the
respective manual hosting system to come online. Also, there are often
some very useful bulletins that are not part of the manuals. Sometimes
bulletins can save weeks of head scratching when faced with an obscure
intermittent problem.
Click to expand...
This has always been the province of the authorized servicer, whether the
service data is printed or electronic.

Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I prefer printed manuals. I also prefer
manuals that are maintained by the manufacturer. Assuming we could lash
together an army of a few thousand contributors and fairly divide the
manual preparation work, I don't think we could trust that the manuals
are or could be kept up to date. For example, if a local Joe purchased
a manual for model XYZ a few years ago and put it online, I doubt if
the manufacturer will notify Joe if there is a future bulletin or
manual correction issued for that model.

In terms of user manuals, many manufacturers are providing current
model user manuals online. I assume that they will continue this
service for future models and keep the current stuff online until they
run out of disk space. I don't expect manufacturers to go through their
archives and reprint manuals for long discontinued products.

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: uce@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
 
In <2gps12F5hek2U1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 01:59 PM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:

See comments inserted. - mz

"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
[ ... ]
Click to expand...

I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
to read. How would you handle large schematics?

Better than nothing, I would say.
The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY. Some
are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit
board location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again, and
it goes to the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section,
that's easy to do.
Click to expand...
The consumer side of me would like manuals to be available so that I
could fix minor problems myself and avoid the hassle of tracking down a
servicer who is competent. The only allure for me would be manuals for
very old units, no longer supported by manufacturers, for which generic
parts can be found. These units would have little or no commercial
value, but would be important to someone for other reasons.

The pro side of me avoids unofficial manuals because they are often out
dated time wasters. (the official manuals are often not much better)

The pro side of me also hates to deal with the unit that was butchered
on the kitchen table. Easily available manuals would encourage the
inept.

I won't say that I have never wished that I could find a manual online,
but, overall, they would not be valuable enough to encourage me to
participate in an effort to get them online.

[ ... ]

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: uce@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------
 
Mark D. Zacharias screams, but nobody listens:
P.S.

I checked and people are already doing this for manuals for computer games,
Honda car shop manuals, you name it.
Click to expand...
I have found some useful Linux stuff on Kazaa, eMule and other P2P
programs. Searched under "documents" for "Linux".

So this looks like a very good idea.
Will manufacturers start "attacking" us like RIAA done for MP3 files and MPAA
(IIRC) for video files?

Chaos.
--
Chaos MasterŽ | "I'm going under,
Posting from Brazil! | drowning in you
ICQ: 126375906 | I'm falling forever,
ask for e-mail/MSN | I've got to break through"
---------------------. -- Evanescence, "Going Under"
 
"Chaos Master" <ig@ig.com.br> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b136eb59155e415989997@130.133.1.4...
Mark D. Zacharias screams, but nobody listens:
P.S.

I checked and people are already doing this for manuals for computer
games,
Honda car shop manuals, you name it.

I have found some useful Linux stuff on Kazaa, eMule and other P2P
programs. Searched under "documents" for "Linux".

So this looks like a very good idea.
Will manufacturers start "attacking" us like RIAA done for MP3 files and
MPAA
(IIRC) for video files?

Chaos.
--
Chaos MasterŽ | "I'm going under,
Posting from Brazil! | drowning in you
ICQ: 126375906 | I'm falling forever,
ask for e-mail/MSN | I've got to break through"
---------------------. -- Evanescence, "Going Under"


Will manufacturers start "attacking" us like RIAA done for MP3 files and
MPAA
Click to expand...

I sincerely doubt it. For one thing RIAA and the record companies have
billions at stake. So they have hired guns and bribed legislators to go
after the downloaders. Sharing service data is precisely what P2P is
"supposed" to be doing as a legitimate(legal) service.

Mark Z.
 
P.S.

If a manufacturer thought they were RIAA and didn't like their service
manual(s) being posted, the first response would likely be a "cease and
desist" letter, not a lawsuit.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> wrote in message
news:2gu59oF6sun1U1@uni-berlin.de...
"Chaos Master" <ig@ig.com.br> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b136eb59155e415989997@130.133.1.4...
Mark D. Zacharias screams, but nobody listens:
P.S.

I checked and people are already doing this for manuals for computer
games,
Honda car shop manuals, you name it.

I have found some useful Linux stuff on Kazaa, eMule and other P2P
programs. Searched under "documents" for "Linux".

So this looks like a very good idea.
Will manufacturers start "attacking" us like RIAA done for MP3 files and
MPAA
(IIRC) for video files?

Chaos.
--
Chaos MasterŽ | "I'm going under,
Posting from Brazil! | drowning in you
ICQ: 126375906 | I'm falling forever,
ask for e-mail/MSN | I've got to break through"
---------------------. -- Evanescence, "Going Under"


Will manufacturers start "attacking" us like RIAA done for MP3 files and
MPAA

I sincerely doubt it. For one thing RIAA and the record companies have
billions at stake. So they have hired guns and bribed legislators to go
after the downloaders. Sharing service data is precisely what P2P is
"supposed" to be doing as a legitimate(legal) service.

Mark Z.
Click to expand...
 
"Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> wrote in message news:<2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>...
Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
copyright service info,
Click to expand...
Wanna bet? I have in the realm of 200 service manuals here. I just
pulled 10 at random out of the drawers, every single one of them
has a copyright notice on it.

and even if they did, they don't really care about
this.
Click to expand...
Again, wanna bet? A number of "public service" sites that have both
user and service manuals have been hammered by the manufacturers and
forced to remove scans, PDF's even retypes of copyrighted manuals
from the site. The most recent example I am aware of is Nikon going
around and forcing a number of sites to remove manuals of even long-
discontinued products, for example, Nikon F2's, discontinued for
a quarter of a century.

Don't be so sure that somne corporate legal department is out there
just waiting to justify its budget by going after some easy targets.
Like you.
 
I have to say I'm disappointed. I may well still try to make some of these
available. I think it's important, especially these days, when customer
service, and service in general are disappearing.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Dick Pierce" <dpierce@cartchunk.org> wrote in message
news:dc02c02f.0405180438.28a9381@posting.google.com...
"Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> wrote in message
news:<2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>...
Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
copyright service info,

Wanna bet? I have in the realm of 200 service manuals here. I just
pulled 10 at random out of the drawers, every single one of them
has a copyright notice on it.

and even if they did, they don't really care about
this.

Again, wanna bet? A number of "public service" sites that have both
user and service manuals have been hammered by the manufacturers and
forced to remove scans, PDF's even retypes of copyrighted manuals
from the site. The most recent example I am aware of is Nikon going
around and forcing a number of sites to remove manuals of even long-
discontinued products, for example, Nikon F2's, discontinued for
a quarter of a century.

Don't be so sure that somne corporate legal department is out there
just waiting to justify its budget by going after some easy targets.
Like you.
Click to expand...
 
Dick
P2P sharing of service manual PDF's
Click to expand...
<<Wanna bet? I have in the realm of 200 service manuals here>>

Have a manul for a TTS-25B telephone line test set? Old but I want to make
mine go. I need to determine the battery complement?

Bob AZ
 
I am willing to test the water for a limited number of uploads of Pioneer,
Onkyo, and Harman manuals. No Sony at this time.

It is my hope others will join in.

Post model numbers here for requests. I will gauge the response and try to
accommodate.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"RWatson767" <rwatson767@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040519012627.15479.00001740@mb-m05.aol.com...
Dick
P2P sharing of service manual PDF's

Wanna bet? I have in the realm of 200 service manuals here

Have a manul for a TTS-25B telephone line test set? Old but I want to
make
mine go. I need to determine the battery complement?

Bob AZ
Click to expand...
 
Barry Mann wrote:
In <2gps12F5hek2U1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 01:59 PM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:


See comments inserted. - mz


"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...

In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:

[ ... ]


I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
to read. How would you handle large schematics?


Better than nothing, I would say.
The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY. Some
are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit
board location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again, and
it goes to the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section,
that's easy to do.


The consumer side of me would like manuals to be available so that I
could fix minor problems myself and avoid the hassle of tracking down a
servicer who is competent. The only allure for me would be manuals for
very old units, no longer supported by manufacturers, for which generic
parts can be found. These units would have little or no commercial
value, but would be important to someone for other reasons.

The pro side of me avoids unofficial manuals because they are often out
dated time wasters. (the official manuals are often not much better)

The pro side of me also hates to deal with the unit that was butchered
on the kitchen table. Easily available manuals would encourage the
inept.

I won't say that I have never wished that I could find a manual online,
but, overall, they would not be valuable enough to encourage me to
participate in an effort to get them online.

[ ... ]

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: uce@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
Remember that manufacturers do not want you, or anyone else, to fix
their stuff. They want to sell you a NEW one.
When Tektronix switched corporate control from engineers to bean
counters, they quit making service manuals and supplying spare parts.
Every unit that gets fixed is a new one that doesn't get sold.

Most people who stand in line at 5AM at the TV superstore to get the $99
doorbuster
special don't give ANY thought to getting it fixed. The ONLY thing they
care about is the cheapest initial price.
mike

--
Return address is VALID.
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
 
To interject;

While I agree that the manufacturers probably won't go after this with the
tenacity of the RIAA and MPAA, they are likely to be there with viruses.

Now I download stuff, mostly older stuff, but I have noticed that you can
download movies while they are still playing in theaters. You can download CDs
that are not yet released. This has got to be costing them.

From time to time we have actually mentioned to the customer that we were
downloading the service manual, and the reaction varies. Right now this is from
their website. All nice and legal.

On a P2P network, the person(s) with the file you want have to be online.
Secondly, if this is to run during the day, someone at the shop has to set it
to share the directory, or burn a CD and take the files home. You'll know what
files you need during the day, and I think many shops would be reluctant to
share for legal reasons. If we do it at home it's a bit more trouble, and if
the sharer is only online with the sharee at night, then we need to make lists
and take our job home with us.(who doesn't anyway ?)

Actually if the manufacturers were forced by law to be fair, this info would be
readily available. This is ridiculous, they can sell something for thousands of
dollars and make it unrepairable in three years.

Put it this way, I'll participate, but only because I think it's right. No I
didn't download Passion Of Christ, or Matrix Reloaded, didn't want them either.


Now I have a question, but I'll start another post about it, but real quick; I
use WinMX at present and there is a way to set it to run on different networks,
but I would need specifics. I'll post the question after I start WinMX and
explore the options. It would be so much better not to have to install yet
another program.

Thanx

JURB
 
My opinion is, that there are literally millions of Techs out there. For
many years, we (including myself), have put LOTS of money in the repair
manuals. Where this board is great for giving good advice for free. I
think the last thing that any of the qualified techs want to do is just give
the manuals away for free. NOW, if the manufactures wanted to produce
PDF's, and sell them. That would be cool. And if those who purchased them,
wanted to throw their money away, that would be their option (not to mention
the legal aspect of it). However, you have to remember. These manuals in
the wrong hands, are a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. You can imagine
the Lawsuits against the companies and the people who distributed them?
Sure, there are a lot of those out there who are trained, and can read them.
However, I can tell you I have several Degrees in Electronics, computer
science, and Aero Electronics, does it mean it is true? No, I have none of
these. I am trained in electronics, I do know how to read the manuals,
however, I am far from a pro. I have to ask questions like the next. That
is why this board is great. We can share ideas, and even debate them. But
usually, we know when and when not to give the info out. We try to limit
the info, to insure that no one gets hurt (or killed), if these manuals were
just distributed, without cost, they would make it into hands that should
not have them. So, the cost, not only benefits the company, but also keeps
them out of unqualified hands.

Just My Opinion,
"Stepping off my Soapbox"
Rick



"mike" <spamme0@juno.com> wrote in message news:40AC1D7F.3080004@juno.com...
Barry Mann wrote:
In <2gps12F5hek2U1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 01:59 PM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:


See comments inserted. - mz


"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...

In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:

[ ... ]


I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
to read. How would you handle large schematics?


Better than nothing, I would say.
The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY. Some
are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit
board location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again, and
it goes to the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section,
that's easy to do.


The consumer side of me would like manuals to be available so that I
could fix minor problems myself and avoid the hassle of tracking down a
servicer who is competent. The only allure for me would be manuals for
very old units, no longer supported by manufacturers, for which generic
parts can be found. These units would have little or no commercial
value, but would be important to someone for other reasons.

The pro side of me avoids unofficial manuals because they are often out
dated time wasters. (the official manuals are often not much better)

The pro side of me also hates to deal with the unit that was butchered
on the kitchen table. Easily available manuals would encourage the
inept.

I won't say that I have never wished that I could find a manual online,
but, overall, they would not be valuable enough to encourage me to
participate in an effort to get them online.

[ ... ]

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: uce@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------


Remember that manufacturers do not want you, or anyone else, to fix
their stuff. They want to sell you a NEW one.
When Tektronix switched corporate control from engineers to bean
counters, they quit making service manuals and supplying spare parts.
Every unit that gets fixed is a new one that doesn't get sold.

Most people who stand in line at 5AM at the TV superstore to get the $99
doorbuster
special don't give ANY thought to getting it fixed. The ONLY thing they
care about is the cheapest initial price.
mike

--
Return address is VALID.
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
Click to expand...
 
An unknowledgeable yahoo without a service manual is only that much more
dangerous than one with manual in hand. At least there are safety warnings
in the manuals.

Manufacturers do sell them, that is where we get them in the first place.

Fifty dollars to Onkyo will get you EVERY manual they have on PDF. Best deal
I know of, really. They even scanned almost all their old manuals, back to
the '70s.


Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Ricky Eck" <lizard7151971@verizon2.net> wrote in message
news:_Jxrc.1961$No1.1509@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
My opinion is, that there are literally millions of Techs out there. For
many years, we (including myself), have put LOTS of money in the repair
manuals. Where this board is great for giving good advice for free. I
think the last thing that any of the qualified techs want to do is just
give
the manuals away for free. NOW, if the manufactures wanted to produce
PDF's, and sell them. That would be cool. And if those who purchased
them,
wanted to throw their money away, that would be their option (not to
mention
the legal aspect of it). However, you have to remember. These manuals in
the wrong hands, are a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. You can
imagine
the Lawsuits against the companies and the people who distributed them?
Sure, there are a lot of those out there who are trained, and can read
them.
However, I can tell you I have several Degrees in Electronics, computer
science, and Aero Electronics, does it mean it is true? No, I have none
of
these. I am trained in electronics, I do know how to read the manuals,
however, I am far from a pro. I have to ask questions like the next.
That
is why this board is great. We can share ideas, and even debate them.
But
usually, we know when and when not to give the info out. We try to limit
the info, to insure that no one gets hurt (or killed), if these manuals
were
just distributed, without cost, they would make it into hands that should
not have them. So, the cost, not only benefits the company, but also
keeps
them out of unqualified hands.

Just My Opinion,
"Stepping off my Soapbox"
Rick



"mike" <spamme0@juno.com> wrote in message
news:40AC1D7F.3080004@juno.com...
Barry Mann wrote:
In <2gps12F5hek2U1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 01:59 PM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:


See comments inserted. - mz


"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...

In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:

[ ... ]


I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally
hard
to read. How would you handle large schematics?


Better than nothing, I would say.
The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY. Some
are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit
board location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again, and
it goes to the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section,
that's easy to do.


The consumer side of me would like manuals to be available so that I
could fix minor problems myself and avoid the hassle of tracking down
a
servicer who is competent. The only allure for me would be manuals for
very old units, no longer supported by manufacturers, for which
generic
parts can be found. These units would have little or no commercial
value, but would be important to someone for other reasons.

The pro side of me avoids unofficial manuals because they are often
out
dated time wasters. (the official manuals are often not much better)

The pro side of me also hates to deal with the unit that was butchered
on the kitchen table. Easily available manuals would encourage the
inept.

I won't say that I have never wished that I could find a manual
online,
but, overall, they would not be valuable enough to encourage me to
participate in an effort to get them online.

[ ... ]

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: uce@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------


Remember that manufacturers do not want you, or anyone else, to fix
their stuff. They want to sell you a NEW one.
When Tektronix switched corporate control from engineers to bean
counters, they quit making service manuals and supplying spare parts.
Every unit that gets fixed is a new one that doesn't get sold.

Most people who stand in line at 5AM at the TV superstore to get the $99
doorbuster
special don't give ANY thought to getting it fixed. The ONLY thing they
care about is the cheapest initial price.
mike

--
Return address is VALID.
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
Click to expand...
 
Safety Warnings on the manuals, Humm, last I seen, they were all over the
back of the devices, inside the devices, on the PCB, inside the instruction
manuals. What makes you think that they will pay any attention to the ones
in the service manuals?

Once again, it the person would rather try to get it free then pay 50 bucks.
If it is for free, an untrained person will try to read these. Heck, I have
been train, and sometimes I have to do a double take. The one layout that
Wizard showed me on the Vert chip, I had before, but once he described it, I
had to do a double take. So you can imagine what a person with HS
electronics 101 will think. Sure you will get those few headstrong people
who think they know better, and open it, and try. However, most will just
throw the unit away, never going near any HV. If you give them the papers
(on paper or disk), it will just encourage them to pull out the screwdriver,
and open 'er up.

Just My Opinion
Rick

"Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> wrote in message
news:2h7oliFa0jvpU1@uni-berlin.de...
An unknowledgeable yahoo without a service manual is only that much more
dangerous than one with manual in hand. At least there are safety warnings
in the manuals.

Manufacturers do sell them, that is where we get them in the first place.

Fifty dollars to Onkyo will get you EVERY manual they have on PDF. Best
deal
I know of, really. They even scanned almost all their old manuals, back to
the '70s.


Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Ricky Eck" <lizard7151971@verizon2.net> wrote in message
news:_Jxrc.1961$No1.1509@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
My opinion is, that there are literally millions of Techs out there.
For
many years, we (including myself), have put LOTS of money in the repair
manuals. Where this board is great for giving good advice for free. I
think the last thing that any of the qualified techs want to do is just
give
the manuals away for free. NOW, if the manufactures wanted to produce
PDF's, and sell them. That would be cool. And if those who purchased
them,
wanted to throw their money away, that would be their option (not to
mention
the legal aspect of it). However, you have to remember. These manuals
in
the wrong hands, are a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. You can
imagine
the Lawsuits against the companies and the people who distributed them?
Sure, there are a lot of those out there who are trained, and can read
them.
However, I can tell you I have several Degrees in Electronics, computer
science, and Aero Electronics, does it mean it is true? No, I have none
of
these. I am trained in electronics, I do know how to read the manuals,
however, I am far from a pro. I have to ask questions like the next.
That
is why this board is great. We can share ideas, and even debate them.
But
usually, we know when and when not to give the info out. We try to
limit
the info, to insure that no one gets hurt (or killed), if these manuals
were
just distributed, without cost, they would make it into hands that
should
not have them. So, the cost, not only benefits the company, but also
keeps
them out of unqualified hands.

Just My Opinion,
"Stepping off my Soapbox"
Rick



"mike" <spamme0@juno.com> wrote in message
news:40AC1D7F.3080004@juno.com...
Barry Mann wrote:
In <2gps12F5hek2U1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 01:59 PM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:


See comments inserted. - mz


"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...

In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:

[ ... ]


I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally
hard
to read. How would you handle large schematics?


Better than nothing, I would say.
The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY.
Some
are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit
board location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again, and
it goes to the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section,
that's easy to do.


The consumer side of me would like manuals to be available so that I
could fix minor problems myself and avoid the hassle of tracking
down
a
servicer who is competent. The only allure for me would be manuals
for
very old units, no longer supported by manufacturers, for which
generic
parts can be found. These units would have little or no commercial
value, but would be important to someone for other reasons.

The pro side of me avoids unofficial manuals because they are often
out
dated time wasters. (the official manuals are often not much better)

The pro side of me also hates to deal with the unit that was
butchered
on the kitchen table. Easily available manuals would encourage the
inept.

I won't say that I have never wished that I could find a manual
online,
but, overall, they would not be valuable enough to encourage me to
participate in an effort to get them online.

[ ... ]

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: uce@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3
15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------


Remember that manufacturers do not want you, or anyone else, to fix
their stuff. They want to sell you a NEW one.
When Tektronix switched corporate control from engineers to bean
counters, they quit making service manuals and supplying spare parts.
Every unit that gets fixed is a new one that doesn't get sold.

Most people who stand in line at 5AM at the TV superstore to get the
$99
doorbuster
special don't give ANY thought to getting it fixed. The ONLY thing
they
care about is the cheapest initial price.
mike

--
Return address is VALID.
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
Click to expand...
 
I know what you're saying, but such a person couldn't read the schematic
portion in the first place.

My position on this is based on the assumption that it's mostly legitimate
techs who will use these.

For those who aren't - there's always the possibility of a Darwin Award.


Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Ricky Eck" <lizard7151971@verizon2.net> wrote in message
news:zayrc.2221$No1.1570@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Safety Warnings on the manuals, Humm, last I seen, they were all over the
back of the devices, inside the devices, on the PCB, inside the
instruction
manuals. What makes you think that they will pay any attention to the
ones
in the service manuals?

Once again, it the person would rather try to get it free then pay 50
bucks.
If it is for free, an untrained person will try to read these. Heck, I
have
been train, and sometimes I have to do a double take. The one layout that
Wizard showed me on the Vert chip, I had before, but once he described it,
I
had to do a double take. So you can imagine what a person with HS
electronics 101 will think. Sure you will get those few headstrong people
who think they know better, and open it, and try. However, most will just
throw the unit away, never going near any HV. If you give them the papers
(on paper or disk), it will just encourage them to pull out the
screwdriver,
and open 'er up.

Just My Opinion
Rick

"Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> wrote in message
news:2h7oliFa0jvpU1@uni-berlin.de...
An unknowledgeable yahoo without a service manual is only that much more
dangerous than one with manual in hand. At least there are safety
warnings
in the manuals.

Manufacturers do sell them, that is where we get them in the first
place.

Fifty dollars to Onkyo will get you EVERY manual they have on PDF. Best
deal
I know of, really. They even scanned almost all their old manuals, back
to
the '70s.


Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Ricky Eck" <lizard7151971@verizon2.net> wrote in message
news:_Jxrc.1961$No1.1509@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
My opinion is, that there are literally millions of Techs out there.
For
many years, we (including myself), have put LOTS of money in the
repair
manuals. Where this board is great for giving good advice for free.
I
think the last thing that any of the qualified techs want to do is
just
give
the manuals away for free. NOW, if the manufactures wanted to produce
PDF's, and sell them. That would be cool. And if those who purchased
them,
wanted to throw their money away, that would be their option (not to
mention
the legal aspect of it). However, you have to remember. These
manuals
in
the wrong hands, are a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. You can
imagine
the Lawsuits against the companies and the people who distributed
them?
Sure, there are a lot of those out there who are trained, and can read
them.
However, I can tell you I have several Degrees in Electronics,
computer
science, and Aero Electronics, does it mean it is true? No, I have
none
of
these. I am trained in electronics, I do know how to read the
manuals,
however, I am far from a pro. I have to ask questions like the next.
That
is why this board is great. We can share ideas, and even debate them.
But
usually, we know when and when not to give the info out. We try to
limit
the info, to insure that no one gets hurt (or killed), if these
manuals
were
just distributed, without cost, they would make it into hands that
should
not have them. So, the cost, not only benefits the company, but also
keeps
them out of unqualified hands.

Just My Opinion,
"Stepping off my Soapbox"
Rick



"mike" <spamme0@juno.com> wrote in message
news:40AC1D7F.3080004@juno.com...
Barry Mann wrote:
In <2gps12F5hek2U1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 01:59 PM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:


See comments inserted. - mz


"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...

In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:

[ ... ]


I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally
hard
to read. How would you handle large schematics?


Better than nothing, I would say.
The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY.
Some
are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit
board location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again,
and
it goes to the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section,
that's easy to do.


The consumer side of me would like manuals to be available so that
I
could fix minor problems myself and avoid the hassle of tracking
down
a
servicer who is competent. The only allure for me would be manuals
for
very old units, no longer supported by manufacturers, for which
generic
parts can be found. These units would have little or no commercial
value, but would be important to someone for other reasons.

The pro side of me avoids unofficial manuals because they are
often
out
dated time wasters. (the official manuals are often not much
better)

The pro side of me also hates to deal with the unit that was
butchered
on the kitchen table. Easily available manuals would encourage the
inept.

I won't say that I have never wished that I could find a manual
online,
but, overall, they would not be valuable enough to encourage me to
participate in an effort to get them online.

[ ... ]

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: uce@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3
15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------


Remember that manufacturers do not want you, or anyone else, to fix
their stuff. They want to sell you a NEW one.
When Tektronix switched corporate control from engineers to bean
counters, they quit making service manuals and supplying spare
parts.
Every unit that gets fixed is a new one that doesn't get sold.

Most people who stand in line at 5AM at the TV superstore to get the
$99
doorbuster
special don't give ANY thought to getting it fixed. The ONLY thing
they
care about is the cheapest initial price.
mike

--
Return address is VALID.
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
Click to expand...
 
mv /var/posts/JURB6006/jurb6006@aol.com /dev/null:
To interject;

While I agree that the manufacturers probably won't go after this with the
tenacity of the RIAA and MPAA, they are likely to be there with viruses.
Click to expand...
Viruses in .pdf files??? Looks like something stupid, as in a Brazilian site
that said:

"You know that most MP3 files contain viruses (virii?). You have been warned"

Now I download stuff, mostly older stuff, but I have noticed that you can
download movies while they are still playing in theaters. You can download CDs
that are not yet released. This has got to be costing them.
Click to expand...
I mainly download MP3 files and video files (not movies - and not porn either).

Now I have a question, but I'll start another post about it, but real quick; I
use WinMX at present and there is a way to set it to run on different networks,
but I would need specifics. I'll post the question after I start WinMX and
explore the options. It would be so much better not to have to install yet
another program.
Click to expand...
Google for "OpenNap".
I would suggest installing Kazaa Lite.

--
Chaos MasterŽ | "I'm going under,
Posting from Brazil! | drowning in you
ICQ: 126375906 | I'm falling forever,
ask for e-mail/MSN | I've got to break through"
---------------------. -- Evanescence, "Going Under"
 
mv /var/posts/Ricky Eck/lizard7151971@verizon2.net /dev/null:
My opinion is, that there are literally millions of Techs out there. For
many years, we (including myself), have put LOTS of money in the repair
manuals. Where this board is great for giving good advice for free. I
think the last thing that any of the qualified techs want to do is just give
the manuals away for free.

NOW, if the manufactures wanted to produce
PDF's, and sell them. That would be cool. And if those who purchased them,
wanted to throw their money away, that would be their option (not to mention
the legal aspect of it).
Click to expand...
PDF files can be encrypted, so you need a password to open them.

I have to ask questions like the next. That
is why this board is great. We can share ideas, and even debate them. But
usually, we know when and when not to give the info out. We try to limit
the info, to insure that no one gets hurt (or killed), if these manuals were
just distributed, without cost, they would make it into hands that should
not have them. So, the cost, not only benefits the company, but also keeps
them out of unqualified hands.
Click to expand...
IMHO a service manual is *useless* if you don't know anything about electronics.
My disclaimer is - "Download the manuals and use them at your own risk. We can't
do anything if you kill yourself."

[]s
--
Chaos MasterŽ | "I'm going under,
Posting from Brazil! | drowning in you
ICQ: 126375906 | I'm falling forever,
ask for e-mail/MSN | I've got to break through"
---------------------. -- Evanescence, "Going Under"
 
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