OT: What's a good house paint for hot climates?

On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 4:23:15 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

Blame it on your electronic color reader



When we painted our house 14 years ago we tried green as trim for the

gable boards and stuff. Looked at it ... *YUCK* ... got rid of that real

quick.



--

Regards, Joerg



http://www.analogconsultants.com/

S-W has a visualizer https://www.sherwin-williams.com/visualizer/# where you can mix and match up siding and trim color schemes on something maybe close to the architectural style of house, it's self-explanatory.

 

[Charlie E.]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 13:23:15 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Charlie E. wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:38:34 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:58:33 PM UTC-4, Robert Macy wrote:

If you plan on changing color, I HIGHLY recommend painting a test

patch! We decided on a color. Put a test patch on, and WOW!!!

Absolutely the WRONG color! Did that for three more test patches

until finally got the exact one we wanted. We used HD gallons, with


the leftover being relegated to primer somewhere only.
If color is a major concern, be aware that you might have to let it
sit upwards of week to see how it fully develops, initially it almost
always looks faded compared to the final development for at least
24-48 hours. The final color will be exactly as displayed on the
product palette eventually.

In our case we want to paint the same color as before. When I replaced
the window trim on the south side I kept some chunks which we can take
to the paint store for mixing. Then they'll try to match that. If the
match ain't 100% poifect that would be ok, we'll write down the ratio
numbers from their machine so we can always go back when we need more paint.

A few years ago when we painted our house (which was just two years
old at the time...) we decided to change the colors. We wanted a
white house, with a terra-cotta red trim to match the tinted concrete
on our new front patio. We looked at a bunch of paint swatches, and
choose the one that matched it best.

Two weeks later, we look at the final paint color, and it is bright
red! Seems the color we had picked was a SW color, but the paint the
contractor used was Frazee. When they did whatever color matching to
that chip, they really messed up. Our neighbors were furious! With
that clean white and bright red, we stood out in a neighborhood of
neutral beiges and grays. On the other hand, when we saw it, we
really, really liked it!


Blame it on your electronic color reader

When we painted our house 14 years ago we tried green as trim for the
gable boards and stuff. Looked at it ... *YUCK* ... got rid of that real
quick.

Actually, after having this color for five years, the only thing I
would change would be to paint the eaves red as well!

 

[Joerg]

Charlie E. wrote:

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 13:23:15 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

Charlie E. wrote:

[...]

A few years ago when we painted our house (which was just two years
old at the time...) we decided to change the colors. We wanted a
white house, with a terra-cotta red trim to match the tinted concrete
on our new front patio. We looked at a bunch of paint swatches, and
choose the one that matched it best.

Two weeks later, we look at the final paint color, and it is bright
red! Seems the color we had picked was a SW color, but the paint the
contractor used was Frazee. When they did whatever color matching to
that chip, they really messed up. Our neighbors were furious! With
that clean white and bright red, we stood out in a neighborhood of
neutral beiges and grays. On the other hand, when we saw it, we
really, really liked it!

Blame it on your electronic color reader

When we painted our house 14 years ago we tried green as trim for the
gable boards and stuff. Looked at it ... *YUCK* ... got rid of that real
quick.

Actually, after having this color for five years, the only thing I
would change would be to paint the eaves red as well!

The wrath of the whole neighborhood will come upon you if you do that

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Charlie E.]

On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:57:32 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Charlie E. wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 13:23:15 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

Charlie E. wrote:

[...]


A few years ago when we painted our house (which was just two years
old at the time...) we decided to change the colors. We wanted a
white house, with a terra-cotta red trim to match the tinted concrete
on our new front patio. We looked at a bunch of paint swatches, and
choose the one that matched it best.

Two weeks later, we look at the final paint color, and it is bright
red! Seems the color we had picked was a SW color, but the paint the
contractor used was Frazee. When they did whatever color matching to
that chip, they really messed up. Our neighbors were furious! With
that clean white and bright red, we stood out in a neighborhood of
neutral beiges and grays. On the other hand, when we saw it, we
really, really liked it!

Blame it on your electronic color reader

When we painted our house 14 years ago we tried green as trim for the
gable boards and stuff. Looked at it ... *YUCK* ... got rid of that real
quick.

Actually, after having this color for five years, the only thing I
would change would be to paint the eaves red as well!


The wrath of the whole neighborhood will come upon you if you do that

They tried that last time! We don't actually have an HOA, but the
builder (and the community was still under construction then) did have
a sorta HOA written into the contracts. They sent him several
complaints, and because he was in the middle of a fight with the
planning commision at the time, he actually listened to him. However,
we supported him in his fight (and had some clout with the city that
made this useful) while the complaintants were all fighting him on
that front as well, so he supported us!

Of course, he never did get to build any more houses, even with the
updated plans. The market was just too bad then. I keep expecting
him to start back up any time now...

Charlie

 

[George Herold]

On Mar 24, 4:34 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Hi Folks,

Time to paint the house again but the local brands have changed a lot.
Last time was around 14 years ago, and we used Kelly Moore back then.
First their Elastocote and then Latex paint. It held up good but now
some areas suddenly turned bright white, I guess from the intense sun.

Nowadays the locally available brands are Sherwin Williams and Benjamin
Moore from the local paint store, or Behr from Home Depot. Kelly Moore
would require a trip but that's ok if that paint is still the best. I
think the toughest enemy for paint on our house is the hot summer sun.
Not so much the rain because of the rather large roof overhang.

Any opinions? What say thee?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg I'm late to this thread, and I don't live in a hot climate.
But I've been using stains, rather than paints on my wood structures,
and so far I'm very pleased. The barn soaked up many gallons of stain
10+ years ago, and still looks OK. The garage got stained. The house
is (mostly) covered in plastic. There's some pealing latex covered
woodwork here and there, and I'm thinking about staining it :^)
(I get my stain in 5 gal. buckets.)

George H.




George H.

 

[Joerg]

Charlie E. wrote:

On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:57:32 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

Charlie E. wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 13:23:15 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

Charlie E. wrote:
[...]


A few years ago when we painted our house (which was just two years
old at the time...) we decided to change the colors. We wanted a
white house, with a terra-cotta red trim to match the tinted concrete
on our new front patio. We looked at a bunch of paint swatches, and
choose the one that matched it best.

Two weeks later, we look at the final paint color, and it is bright
red! Seems the color we had picked was a SW color, but the paint the
contractor used was Frazee. When they did whatever color matching to
that chip, they really messed up. Our neighbors were furious! With
that clean white and bright red, we stood out in a neighborhood of
neutral beiges and grays. On the other hand, when we saw it, we
really, really liked it!
Blame it on your electronic color reader

When we painted our house 14 years ago we tried green as trim for the
gable boards and stuff. Looked at it ... *YUCK* ... got rid of that real
quick.
Actually, after having this color for five years, the only thing I
would change would be to paint the eaves red as well!

The wrath of the whole neighborhood will come upon you if you do that

They tried that last time! We don't actually have an HOA, but the
builder (and the community was still under construction then) did have
a sorta HOA written into the contracts. They sent him several
complaints, and because he was in the middle of a fight with the
planning commision at the time, he actually listened to him. However,
we supported him in his fight (and had some clout with the city that
made this useful) while the complaintants were all fighting him on
that front as well, so he supported us!

Ah, the good old political game. Just like it plays out over and over
here in Sacramento

Of course, he never did get to build any more houses, even with the
updated plans. The market was just too bad then. I keep expecting
him to start back up any time now...

Yup. We now have the sequel, housing bubble #2 is coming up. It is now
rather clear that people in government neither understanding nor willing
to learn these things.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Joerg]

George Herold wrote:

On Mar 24, 4:34 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Hi Folks,

Time to paint the house again but the local brands have changed a lot.
Last time was around 14 years ago, and we used Kelly Moore back then.
First their Elastocote and then Latex paint. It held up good but now
some areas suddenly turned bright white, I guess from the intense sun.

Nowadays the locally available brands are Sherwin Williams and Benjamin
Moore from the local paint store, or Behr from Home Depot. Kelly Moore
would require a trip but that's ok if that paint is still the best. I
think the toughest enemy for paint on our house is the hot summer sun.
Not so much the rain because of the rather large roof overhang.

Any opinions? What say thee?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg I'm late to this thread, and I don't live in a hot climate.
But I've been using stains, rather than paints on my wood structures,
and so far I'm very pleased. The barn soaked up many gallons of stain
10+ years ago, and still looks OK. The garage got stained. The house
is (mostly) covered in plastic. There's some pealing latex covered
woodwork here and there, and I'm thinking about staining it :^)
(I get my stain in 5 gal. buckets.)

Yeah, stain holds up a lot better than paint but often has the downside
of being quite flammable. Which is a concern in this area.

Also, once something is painted you cannot stain. I did sand down the
whole big deck here in order to get the dreaded paint of and be able to
stain it. Took me three weeks. I don't want to ever do that again in
this earthly life.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[George Herold]

On Mar 28, 12:39 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

George Herold wrote:
On Mar 24, 4:34 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Hi Folks,

Time to paint the house again but the local brands have changed a lot.
Last time was around 14 years ago, and we used Kelly Moore back then.
First their Elastocote and then Latex paint. It held up good but now
some areas suddenly turned bright white, I guess from the intense sun.

Nowadays the locally available brands are Sherwin Williams and Benjamin
Moore from the local paint store, or Behr from Home Depot. Kelly Moore
would require a trip but that's ok if that paint is still the best. I
think the toughest enemy for paint on our house is the hot summer sun.
Not so much the rain because of the rather large roof overhang.

Any opinions? What say thee?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg I'm late to this thread, and I don't live in a hot climate.
But I've been using stains, rather than paints on my wood structures,
and so far I'm very pleased.  The barn soaked up many gallons of stain
10+ years ago, and still looks OK.  The garage got stained.  The house
is (mostly) covered in plastic.  There's some pealing latex covered
woodwork here and there, and I'm thinking about staining it :^)
(I get my stain in 5 gal. buckets.)

Yeah, stain holds up a lot better than paint but often has the downside
of being quite flammable. Which is a concern in this area.

I used a Behr wood stain that I got at HD. Water clean-up which is a
plus.
So not flammable. If it didn't say stain on the can I would have had
a hard time telling it from a paint.

Also, once something is painted you cannot stain. I did sand down the
whole big deck here in order to get the dreaded paint of and be able to
stain it. Took me three weeks. I don't want to ever do that again in
this earthly life.

Grin, I guess I let 'things' get a bit seedier before painting, so
mother nature has done most of the 'scraping' for me.

George H.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

 

[T]

In article <dh82l8pumtjt5e0dvtt68fh4v3qhnj9dq8@4ax.com>, krw@attt.bizz
says...

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 07:37:53 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, March 24, 2013 8:21:00 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, March 24, 2013 6:48:30 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, March 24, 2013 6:20:03 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
Sherwin-Williams always works as advertized and it's
priced slightly less than Benjamin Moore. They always
sell it for less than the list price, will probably let
that $55/gal Duration go for $35. I've seen the Behr
self-priming in action and am less than impressed with
it, you will end up using twice as much and it still
looks bad. Actually wouldn't trust any claims of
self-priming and prime it anyway whichever paint you use,
depends on your standards.I'm pretty sure S-W is the
product of choice of the big contractors, they have every
imaginable application of paint covered.
We won't need to prime since there is already paint on the
house. It's not peeling or anything, just sun-bleached. Our
paint store doesn't give discounts but that's ok, I am
more concerned that it's good stuff so it lasts maybe a bit
longer than the 14 years the Kelly Moore lasted. Meantime,
the paints my wife found rated as good: Pittsburgh Manor
Hall Timeless Pittsburgh Sunproof Latex Exterior Benjamin
Moor Aura Waterborne Exterior But maybe S-W is the way to
go and some web links corroborate what you said:
http://www.consumersearch.com/exterior-paint/sherwin-williams-duration
The only thing I don't like is that it's a self-prime
thick paint. We don't need to prime. -- Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
The Pittsburgh products look good, but I never see them come
up in reviews.
I haven't either. Meantime I've scoped out S-W Duration a bit
and there seem to be some issues with it, mostly because of its
thickness and quick drying time:
http://jackpauhl.blogspot.com/2007/10/duration-exterior.html We
normally use a roller but this paint doesn't seem to like that
technique. Our siding has these typical vertical recesses that
must be painted by brush and then the other person rolls the
surfaces. Afraid that S-W Duration might be clumping a lot when
the roller meets the brush-painted areas. -- Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
I don't trust that review. I've used their interior Superpaint
which had the same complaints, it's not that thick and it's easy
to apply, but it does set up fast, so you don't want to go over
anything that's been in place for more than a few minutes, you
need to let it completely dry first. Your siding just means you
cut-in all the recessed grooves on the first day and hit the
flats on the second.




It's not the only review like that I saw. But for the Pittsburgh

Sunproof I can't find any such detailed reviews.



Doing the recesses one day and the rest the next day is fine, as
long as

the Duration exterior paint can be rolled.

LOL- those people are exaggerating about it being like mayonnaise.


Well, most are folks who professionally paint since decades. They must
know a thing or two.

Latex paint (all I suspect) is, by design, a non-Newtonian fluid. It's
intended to be "heavy" so it doesn't run off the wall onto the floor
(and off the brush onto your shoe). When you apply pressure from the
brush or roller the molecules "shear" causing it to go on smoothly.
The better the paint the more non-Newtonian.

One vote for Benjamin Moore. Duration, if you can afford it.

One thing I learned long ago is that when you paint, prepare the surface
first. Rough up or remove old paint. Use a primer if you're not sure.

 

[josephkk]

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 13:34:49 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Hi Folks,

Time to paint the house again but the local brands have changed a lot.
Last time was around 14 years ago, and we used Kelly Moore back then.
First their Elastocote and then Latex paint. It held up good but now
some areas suddenly turned bright white, I guess from the intense sun.

Nowadays the locally available brands are Sherwin Williams and Benjamin
Moore from the local paint store, or Behr from Home Depot. Kelly Moore
would require a trip but that's ok if that paint is still the best. I
think the toughest enemy for paint on our house is the hot summer sun.
Not so much the rain because of the rather large roof overhang.

Any opinions? What say thee?

My next door neighbor uses Glidden. He goes about 10 years per exterior
paint job in Rancho Cordova. So i tried it, about 3 years and it still
looks fresh.

?-)

 

[josephkk]

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:20:03 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:03:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, March 24, 2013 4:34:49 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Hi Folks, Time to paint the house again but the local brands
have changed a lot. Last time was around 14 years ago, and we
used Kelly Moore back then. First their Elastocote and then
Latex paint. It held up good but now some areas suddenly turned
bright white, I guess from the intense sun. Nowadays the
locally available brands are Sherwin Williams and Benjamin
Moore from the local paint store, or Behr from Home Depot.
Kelly Moore would require a trip but that's ok if that paint is
still the best. I think the toughest enemy for paint on our
house is the hot summer sun. Not so much the rain because of
the rather large roof overhang. Any opinions? What say thee?
Well wathcha painting? Wood, stucco, concrete, brick, synthetic
siding?




Oops, sorry, wood siding. But it wouldn't matter much because there
is

already the Elastocote and the old Kelly Moore paint underneath,
which

even with serious power-washing effort won't come off.



So in essence we'd be painting paint


Sherwin-Williams always works as advertized and it's priced slightly
less than Benjamin Moore. They always sell it for less than the list
price, will probably let that $55/gal Duration go for $35. I've seen
the Behr self-priming in action and am less than impressed with it,
you will end up using twice as much and it still looks bad. Actually
wouldn't trust any claims of self-priming and prime it anyway
whichever paint you use, depends on your standards.I'm pretty sure
S-W is the product of choice of the big contractors, they have every
imaginable application of paint covered.


We won't need to prime since there is already paint on the house. It's
not peeling or anything, just sun-bleached.

Our paint store doesn't give discounts but that's ok, I am more
concerned that it's good stuff so it lasts maybe a bit longer than the
14 years the Kelly Moore lasted.

Meantime, the paints my wife found rated as good:

Pittsburgh Manor Hall Timeless
Pittsburgh Sunproof Latex Exterior
Benjamin Moor Aura Waterborne Exterior

But maybe S-W is the way to go and some web links corroborate what you said:

http://www.consumersearch.com/exterior-paint/sherwin-williams-duration

The only thing I don't like is that it's a self-prime thick paint. We
don't need to prime.

All that said, Caltrans prefers Dunn-Edwards (Would you like to talk with
one of their experts?). In all cases pressure wash (or have it done) your
walls first.

?-)

 

[Joerg]

josephkk wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:20:03 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:03:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, March 24, 2013 4:34:49 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Hi Folks, Time to paint the house again but the local brands
have changed a lot. Last time was around 14 years ago, and we
used Kelly Moore back then. First their Elastocote and then
Latex paint. It held up good but now some areas suddenly turned
bright white, I guess from the intense sun. Nowadays the
locally available brands are Sherwin Williams and Benjamin
Moore from the local paint store, or Behr from Home Depot.
Kelly Moore would require a trip but that's ok if that paint is
still the best. I think the toughest enemy for paint on our
house is the hot summer sun. Not so much the rain because of
the rather large roof overhang. Any opinions? What say thee?
Well wathcha painting? Wood, stucco, concrete, brick, synthetic
siding?



Oops, sorry, wood siding. But it wouldn't matter much because there
is

already the Elastocote and the old Kelly Moore paint underneath,
which

even with serious power-washing effort won't come off.



So in essence we'd be painting paint

Sherwin-Williams always works as advertized and it's priced slightly
less than Benjamin Moore. They always sell it for less than the list
price, will probably let that $55/gal Duration go for $35. I've seen
the Behr self-priming in action and am less than impressed with it,
you will end up using twice as much and it still looks bad. Actually
wouldn't trust any claims of self-priming and prime it anyway
whichever paint you use, depends on your standards.I'm pretty sure
S-W is the product of choice of the big contractors, they have every
imaginable application of paint covered.

We won't need to prime since there is already paint on the house. It's
not peeling or anything, just sun-bleached.

Our paint store doesn't give discounts but that's ok, I am more
concerned that it's good stuff so it lasts maybe a bit longer than the
14 years the Kelly Moore lasted.

Meantime, the paints my wife found rated as good:

Pittsburgh Manor Hall Timeless
Pittsburgh Sunproof Latex Exterior
Benjamin Moor Aura Waterborne Exterior

But maybe S-W is the way to go and some web links corroborate what you said:

http://www.consumersearch.com/exterior-paint/sherwin-williams-duration

The only thing I don't like is that it's a self-prime thick paint. We
don't need to prime.


All that said, Caltrans prefers Dunn-Edwards (Would you like to talk with
one of their experts?). ...

As long as it doesn't pop like the bolts on the Bay Bridge

I guess Caltrans uses them also because they are local. Some people give
it mixed opinions though:

http://www.contractortalk.com/f8/ever-heard-dunn-edwards-paint-6835/

What I see over and over is that contractors favor Benjamin Moore. Much
more so than SW. And not so much Kelly Moore either for some reason
(that used to be the real favorite 15 years ago and it's what we bought
back then).

... In all cases pressure wash (or have it done) your
walls first.

Oh, we'll definitely do that. Those are the days when I shower in the
evening instead of the morning

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

On Sunday, March 24, 2013 at 4:34:49 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

Hi Folks,

Time to paint the house again but the local brands have changed a lot.
Last time was around 14 years ago, and we used Kelly Moore back then.
First their Elastocote and then Latex paint. It held up good but now
some areas suddenly turned bright white, I guess from the intense sun.

Nowadays the locally available brands are Sherwin Williams and Benjamin
Moore from the local paint store, or Behr from Home Depot. Kelly Moore
would require a trip but that's ok if that paint is still the best. I
think the toughest enemy for paint on our house is the hot summer sun.
Not so much the rain because of the rather large roof overhang.

Any opinions? What say thee?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

paint or stain for florida

 

On Sunday, March 24, 2013 at 4:34:49 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

Hi Folks,
should ai
Time to paint the house again but the local brands have changed a lot.
Last time was around 14 years ago, and we used Kelly Moore back then.
First their Elastocote and then Latex paint. It held up good but now
some areas suddenly turned bright white, I guess from the intense sun.

Nowadays the locally available brands are Sherwin Williams and Benjamin
Moore from the local paint store, or Behr from Home Depot. Kelly Moore
would require a trip but that's ok if that paint is still the best. I
think the toughest enemy for paint on our house is the hot summer sun.
Not so much the rain because of the rather large roof overhang.

Any opinions? What say thee?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[John Robertson]

On 2020/05/05 3:01 p.m., Buzz McCool wrote:

On 5/4/20 11:12 AM, bobsherrykiefer@gmail.com wrote:
some areas suddenly turned bright white, I guess from the intense sun.

Sherwin-Williams was offering at one time a "Loxon IR reflective
coating" paint. Not sure if it still exists.

Considering the OP asked this back in 2013 I am sure Joerg has long
since gone on to other issues in his life...

John ;-#)#

 

[Buzz McCool]

On 5/4/20 11:12 AM, bobsherrykiefer@gmail.com wrote:
>> some areas suddenly turned bright white, I guess from the intense sun.

Sherwin-Williams was offering at one time a "Loxon IR reflective
coating" paint. Not sure if it still exists.

 

[RheillyPhoull]

On 6/05/2020 6:08 am, John Robertson wrote:

On 2020/05/05 3:01 p.m., Buzz McCool wrote:
On 5/4/20 11:12 AM, bobsherrykiefer@gmail.com wrote:
some areas suddenly turned bright white, I guess from the intense sun.

Sherwin-Williams was offering at one time a "Loxon IR reflective
coating" paint. Not sure if it still exists.


Considering the OP asked this back in 2013 I am sure Joerg has long
since gone on to other issues in his life...

John ;-#)#

Gets ya every time !!