OT Thinking out loud

[George Herold]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 11:52:59 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 06/11/19 16:37, George Herold wrote:
Hah, they have product to ship and don't know how to test it.

... so perhaps the customers will notice problems and
complain. If the customers are important to the business,
they may come back to you.

Nah, I think quality goes down a bit and
most customers won't even notice.
Customer support will suffer.

George H.

Could you do consulting for the customers?

Might depend on what you are doing:
- getting it working for each and every customer - OK
- giving ammunition to sue your ex employer - questionable

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 06/11/19 18:15, George Herold wrote:

Yeah, my boss and I had a parting conversation.
(it was a doozie) One thing he said that, struck me is
that he had lost confidence in what I was saying or suggesting.
That explained a lot to me!

One principal I've always shared with my bosses is that nothing
said during an annual formal review should come as a surprise.

At HP that was partly a consequence of the "MBWA" baked into
the corporate culture.

Oh, from previous posts, I hired a lawyer, ~$500 and
she changed the language in the severance agreement to something
I could sign. 3 months pay and health care, and 3/4's of
the yearly bonus.

I'd be most worried about losing the healthcare; fortunately
that's not a worry (except as a consequence of a post-Brexit
trade deal with the US)

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 06/11/19 16:53, George Herold wrote:

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 3:31:05 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-11-05, George Herold <ggherold@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi All, Well I moved my stuff out of my PPOE yesterday.

Option one: pay me.

Option two: f-you.

Seems you want revenge.
Hmm revenge is not quite right.
Anger and sadness, the anger is directed at me as much anyone else.
I lost my 'mojo' (fire in the belly, that thing which gives
you shower ideas in the morning and plans for the day as you drive
into work.) years ago, that was the time to leave.

Ah yes. The "fur-lined rut".

When I found myself in that at HPLabs, I decided to leave.
Watching Carly Fiorina didn't do anything to counteract
that decision!


> I guess that is my lesson learned.

I've always taken Frank Herbert's phrase "the easy path which
leads downward to stagnation" to heart.

I was once in a company which merged, and eventually my small
division was moved. I had the choice of staying on the same
site in a humdrum job (low risk low reward), or going to the
new site to an unknown job (high risk high reward).

I chose the latter, on the basis that if the job there was
merely OK, I wouldn't be able to tolerate the travelling.

It was crap, and I moved to a /much/ more interesting job in
Cambridge (great town, appalling countryside).

Never regretted putting myself in a position where the status
quo would be intolerable. But that's not so easy when you
have family responsibilities.

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 7/11/19 8:06 am, Tom Gardner wrote:

I'd be most worried about losing the healthcare...
You could always move to a civilised country, where health care is free.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 06/11/19 22:09, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 7/11/19 8:06 am, Tom Gardner wrote:
I'd be most worried about losing the healthcare...
You could always move to a civilised country, where health care is free.

I live in such a country

But it is becoming less civilised by the month, and will
be more impoverished after December 2020

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 1:15:26 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:

Hmm Is there some standard consultant contract that clears you of
all reasonable liability while you consult?

I know the answer to this one. You simply need a clause that requires them to indemnify you for any losses (make that as general as possible) resulting from your consulting with them. Make sure they have to pay for "reasonable attorney fees" and other expenses and that you and your people get to direct the defense. This is standard language in so many contracts these days including the terms and conditions of nearly every web site you ever visit.

The part I don't understand is that you genuinely seem to be dreading/hating the idea of ever going back there. Why would you? You weren't fired. You have a signed severance agreement. What is your motivation to returning rather than looking ahead to your next job? Looking ahead is often the best thing. It's no so much like a romantic breakup. Much better to look ahead and just forget the previous one.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[George Herold]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 10:10:40 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 1:15:26 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
Hmm Is there some standard consultant contract that clears you of
all reasonable liability while you consult?

I know the answer to this one. You simply need a clause that requires them to indemnify you for any losses (make that as general as possible) resulting from your consulting with them. Make sure they have to pay for "reasonable attorney fees" and other expenses and that you and your people get to direct the defense. This is standard language in so many contracts these days including the terms and conditions of nearly every web site you ever visit.

The part I don't understand is that you genuinely seem to be dreading/hating the idea of ever going back there. Why would you? You weren't fired. You have a signed severance agreement. What is your motivation to returning rather than looking ahead to your next job? Looking ahead is often the best thing. It's no so much like a romantic breakup. Much better to look ahead and just forget the previous one.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Thanks Rick, I agree. I sent my ex boss an email on Thursday saying
I'd come in next week and show them stuff. Next week was good for
me 'cause Mr X. wouldn't be there. The response is here in
dropbox... (so I can delete it in a few days. )
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3gvqiewdfydrouk/JR11-8.txt?dl=0

I just want to observe that saying you are looking
forward to working with someone, you just fired,
is kinda weird.

George H.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 09/11/19 04:00, George Herold wrote:

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 10:10:40 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 1:15:26 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
Hmm Is there some standard consultant contract that clears you of
all reasonable liability while you consult?

I know the answer to this one. You simply need a clause that requires them to indemnify you for any losses (make that as general as possible) resulting from your consulting with them. Make sure they have to pay for "reasonable attorney fees" and other expenses and that you and your people get to direct the defense. This is standard language in so many contracts these days including the terms and conditions of nearly every web site you ever visit.

The part I don't understand is that you genuinely seem to be dreading/hating the idea of ever going back there. Why would you? You weren't fired. You have a signed severance agreement. What is your motivation to returning rather than looking ahead to your next job? Looking ahead is often the best thing. It's no so much like a romantic breakup. Much better to look ahead and just forget the previous one.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Thanks Rick, I agree. I sent my ex boss an email on Thursday saying
I'd come in next week and show them stuff. Next week was good for
me 'cause Mr X. wouldn't be there. The response is here in
dropbox... (so I can delete it in a few days. )
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3gvqiewdfydrouk/JR11-8.txt?dl=0

I just want to observe that saying you are looking
forward to working with someone, you just fired,
is kinda weird.

To me the "it is crucial" clause indicates any/all of
- classic doublethink, esp. w.r.t. not trusting your
judgement!
- you've got them by the short and curlies (if you wish)
- they are preparing the ground to deny pay a settlement

The latter could happen if your payout is contingent on
your satisfactorily handing over your knowledge. That would
be a bad position to be in since they could claim their
inability is due to your not giving them the secret sauce.

I'm not sure how to defend against that. Partial defences
could include:
- during the meeting, note down their questions and your
answers, and "confirm this is what we said" afterwards
- at the end of the day, ask them if they have more
questions
- you tape record everything you pass over in the meetings,
particularly the answer to that final question

Main benefit would be to show them your ammunition, if
they were stupid enough to make you go to court.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 09/11/2019 04:00, George Herold wrote:

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 10:10:40 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 1:15:26 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
Hmm Is there some standard consultant contract that clears you of
all reasonable liability while you consult?

I know the answer to this one. You simply need a clause that requires them to indemnify you for any losses (make that as general as possible) resulting from your consulting with them. Make sure they have to pay for "reasonable attorney fees" and other expenses and that you and your people get to direct the defense. This is standard language in so many contracts these days including the terms and conditions of nearly every web site you ever visit.

The part I don't understand is that you genuinely seem to be dreading/hating the idea of ever going back there. Why would you? You weren't fired. You have a signed severance agreement. What is your motivation to returning rather than looking ahead to your next job? Looking ahead is often the best thing. It's no so much like a romantic breakup. Much better to look ahead and just forget the previous one.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Thanks Rick, I agree. I sent my ex boss an email on Thursday saying
I'd come in next week and show them stuff. Next week was good for
me 'cause Mr X. wouldn't be there. The response is here in
dropbox... (so I can delete it in a few days. )
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3gvqiewdfydrouk/JR11-8.txt?dl=0

I just want to observe that saying you are looking
forward to working with someone, you just fired,
is kinda weird.

He might genuinely mean it. Instructions to fire can come from on high.

Think about how much you intend to charge them per diem for ongoing
support over and above what you decide to do for free. $1k+ per day?

I recall our company arbitrarily fired a guy who did a perfectly good
product launch for having an untidy desk because the next tier of
management up wanted to see if the S&M manager had any balls.

FWIW I recommend not burning any bridges that you don't absolutely have
to burn. You never know when old contacts might come in useful.

My favourite all time letter was in French from Logitech in Switzerland
back in the days when they were a Modula 2 compiler company (pre-mouse)
immediate threatening immediate legal action if outstanding bills were
not paid. It finished with the characteristic flowery language about
greetings and felicitations that ends more French business letters.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

lørdag den 9. november 2019 kl. 09.55.05 UTC+1 skrev Martin Brown:

On 09/11/2019 04:00, George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 10:10:40 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 1:15:26 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
Hmm Is there some standard consultant contract that clears you of
all reasonable liability while you consult?

I know the answer to this one. You simply need a clause that requires them to indemnify you for any losses (make that as general as possible) resulting from your consulting with them. Make sure they have to pay for "reasonable attorney fees" and other expenses and that you and your people get to direct the defense. This is standard language in so many contracts these days including the terms and conditions of nearly every web site you ever visit.

The part I don't understand is that you genuinely seem to be dreading/hating the idea of ever going back there. Why would you? You weren't fired. You have a signed severance agreement. What is your motivation to returning rather than looking ahead to your next job? Looking ahead is often the best thing. It's no so much like a romantic breakup. Much better to look ahead and just forget the previous one.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Thanks Rick, I agree. I sent my ex boss an email on Thursday saying
I'd come in next week and show them stuff. Next week was good for
me 'cause Mr X. wouldn't be there. The response is here in
dropbox... (so I can delete it in a few days. )
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3gvqiewdfydrouk/JR11-8.txt?dl=0

I just want to observe that saying you are looking
forward to working with someone, you just fired,
is kinda weird.

He might genuinely mean it. Instructions to fire can come from on high.

Think about how much you intend to charge them per diem for ongoing
support over and above what you decide to do for free. $1k+ per day?

I recall our company arbitrarily fired a guy who did a perfectly good
product launch for having an untidy desk because the next tier of
management up wanted to see if the S&M manager had any balls.

FWIW I recommend not burning any bridges that you don't absolutely have
to burn. You never know when old contacts might come in useful.

My favourite all time letter was in French from Logitech in Switzerland
back in the days when they were a Modula 2 compiler company (pre-mouse)
immediate threatening immediate legal action if outstanding bills were
not paid. It finished with the characteristic flowery language about
greetings and felicitations that ends more French business letters.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shit%20Sandwich

 

[George Herold]

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 3:55:05 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

On 09/11/2019 04:00, George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 10:10:40 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 1:15:26 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
Hmm Is there some standard consultant contract that clears you of
all reasonable liability while you consult?

I know the answer to this one. You simply need a clause that requires them to indemnify you for any losses (make that as general as possible) resulting from your consulting with them. Make sure they have to pay for "reasonable attorney fees" and other expenses and that you and your people get to direct the defense. This is standard language in so many contracts these days including the terms and conditions of nearly every web site you ever visit.

The part I don't understand is that you genuinely seem to be dreading/hating the idea of ever going back there. Why would you? You weren't fired. You have a signed severance agreement. What is your motivation to returning rather than looking ahead to your next job? Looking ahead is often the best thing. It's no so much like a romantic breakup. Much better to look ahead and just forget the previous one.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Thanks Rick, I agree. I sent my ex boss an email on Thursday saying
I'd come in next week and show them stuff. Next week was good for
me 'cause Mr X. wouldn't be there. The response is here in
dropbox... (so I can delete it in a few days. )
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3gvqiewdfydrouk/JR11-8.txt?dl=0

I just want to observe that saying you are looking
forward to working with someone, you just fired,
is kinda weird.

He might genuinely mean it. Instructions to fire can come from on high.
Nah small company, he is the head honcho.

Think about how much you intend to charge them per diem for ongoing
support over and above what you decide to do for free. $1k+ per day?

I recall our company arbitrarily fired a guy who did a perfectly good
product launch for having an untidy desk because the next tier of
management up wanted to see if the S&M manager had any balls.

FWIW I recommend not burning any bridges that you don't absolutely have
to burn. You never know when old contacts might come in useful.

OK, Well there are only two contacts here. My boss... bridge looks
fairly 'charred'. And Mr X. I have no hard feeling towards Mr. X,
I just don't want to work with him.

George H.

My favourite all time letter was in French from Logitech in Switzerland
back in the days when they were a Modula 2 compiler company (pre-mouse)
immediate threatening immediate legal action if outstanding bills were
not paid. It finished with the characteristic flowery language about
greetings and felicitations that ends more French business letters.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[George Herold]

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 2:56:58 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 09/11/19 04:00, George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 10:10:40 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 1:15:26 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
Hmm Is there some standard consultant contract that clears you of
all reasonable liability while you consult?

I know the answer to this one. You simply need a clause that requires them to indemnify you for any losses (make that as general as possible) resulting from your consulting with them. Make sure they have to pay for "reasonable attorney fees" and other expenses and that you and your people get to direct the defense. This is standard language in so many contracts these days including the terms and conditions of nearly every web site you ever visit.

The part I don't understand is that you genuinely seem to be dreading/hating the idea of ever going back there. Why would you? You weren't fired. You have a signed severance agreement. What is your motivation to returning rather than looking ahead to your next job? Looking ahead is often the best thing. It's no so much like a romantic breakup. Much better to look ahead and just forget the previous one.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Thanks Rick, I agree. I sent my ex boss an email on Thursday saying
I'd come in next week and show them stuff. Next week was good for
me 'cause Mr X. wouldn't be there. The response is here in
dropbox... (so I can delete it in a few days. )
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3gvqiewdfydrouk/JR11-8.txt?dl=0

I just want to observe that saying you are looking
forward to working with someone, you just fired,
is kinda weird.

To me the "it is crucial" clause indicates any/all of
- classic doublethink, esp. w.r.t. not trusting your
judgement!
- you've got them by the short and curlies (if you wish)
- they are preparing the ground to deny pay a settlement

No, I don't think so. About the only stick/carrot he has is
how much in bonuses to give this year.
I don't want to hold anyone's short hairs. Mostly just a clean
end... no more BS that I have to put up with.

George H.

The latter could happen if your payout is contingent on
your satisfactorily handing over your knowledge. That would
be a bad position to be in since they could claim their
inability is due to your not giving them the secret sauce.

I'm not sure how to defend against that. Partial defences
could include:
- during the meeting, note down their questions and your
answers, and "confirm this is what we said" afterwards
- at the end of the day, ask them if they have more
questions
- you tape record everything you pass over in the meetings,
particularly the answer to that final question

Main benefit would be to show them your ammunition, if
they were stupid enough to make you go to court.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 09/11/19 16:22, George Herold wrote:

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 2:56:58 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 09/11/19 04:00, George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 10:10:40 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 1:15:26 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
Hmm Is there some standard consultant contract that clears you of
all reasonable liability while you consult?

I know the answer to this one. You simply need a clause that requires them to indemnify you for any losses (make that as general as possible) resulting from your consulting with them. Make sure they have to pay for "reasonable attorney fees" and other expenses and that you and your people get to direct the defense. This is standard language in so many contracts these days including the terms and conditions of nearly every web site you ever visit.

The part I don't understand is that you genuinely seem to be dreading/hating the idea of ever going back there. Why would you? You weren't fired. You have a signed severance agreement. What is your motivation to returning rather than looking ahead to your next job? Looking ahead is often the best thing. It's no so much like a romantic breakup. Much better to look ahead and just forget the previous one.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Thanks Rick, I agree. I sent my ex boss an email on Thursday saying
I'd come in next week and show them stuff. Next week was good for
me 'cause Mr X. wouldn't be there. The response is here in
dropbox... (so I can delete it in a few days. )
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3gvqiewdfydrouk/JR11-8.txt?dl=0

I just want to observe that saying you are looking
forward to working with someone, you just fired,
is kinda weird.

To me the "it is crucial" clause indicates any/all of
- classic doublethink, esp. w.r.t. not trusting your
judgement!
- you've got them by the short and curlies (if you wish)
- they are preparing the ground to deny pay a settlement
No, I don't think so. About the only stick/carrot he has is
how much in bonuses to give this year.

OK; you can assess that.

I don't want to hold anyone's short hairs. Mostly just a clean
end... no more BS that I have to put up with.

Ambiguous phrasing on my part.

If, sometime in the future, you charge them $2k/day
for your knowledge, they will be highly incentivised
to avoid wasting your time with bullshit

They will, of course, do the calculation that $2k is
the cheapest option open to them.