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mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one âconsiderationâ. It would
be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at
the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you
used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to
read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full
pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three
days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks
from all of us."
would that be something normally done during the notice period?
here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1 month for
every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told to just stay home
during that period, but you are still employed and can be told to work
as long as it something you would normally be doing
-Lasse
On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 9:26:23 PM UTC-4, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:47:09 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:50:56 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 1:02:58 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one âconsiderationâ. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us."
would that be something normally done during the notice period?
here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1 month for
every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told to just stay home
during that period, but you are still employed and can be told to work
as long as it something you would normally be doing
-Lasse
Here in the rugged US, I think you can do whatever you want.
Unless there is some signed agreement.
George H.
That's the point. They typically ask you to sign an agreement like this *before* you take the job. However, it can't stop you from working for a competitor, it simply limits you from working in an area that would utilize specific, competitive knowledge in a way that is likely to involve trade secrets.
Properly written agreements can, for all practical purposes,
prevent you from working for a competitor for a specific period of time..
Can they stop you from working at a competitor where you're taking a job
as a driver or maintenance guy? No. But they can probably enforce
an agreement where you're taking a job as the head of product design
or marketing manager for a competing product. Which of course is the
job you want. And even if they can't, are you willing to go to the
expense of trying to defend it in court?
Nope. The courts have ruled. You can't sign away your right to earn a living in a non-disclosure agreement. They can only protect their trade secret information, so as long as you aren't in a job where that particular info would have an impact on the product, they can't stop you.
There have been cases where the previous employer tried to use the non-compete to prevent employment at all in the same field.
Sure, there are such agreements that are too broad, poorly written,
etc. That doesn't mean that other, proper ones are all unenforceable.
The courts strike that down on the basis that this would potentially prevent the person from being employable at all. I don't see where the requested non-disclosure would be that onerous. Still, I would never sign such a document (or any other) on leaving a company.
The courts have ruled that there is no such thing as a "properly" written agreement that can take away your right to earn a living in the profession in which you are skilled. You just can't be in a job where your knowledge of trade secret info would be a factor.
What you can or can't see is not the matter. Nearly any contract can bite you in the ass at sometime, somewhere, somehow in a way that you never saw coming. Even if it doesn't, you would need to keep that agreement on hand and review it with every job you consider for the rest of your life.
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 10:02:51 -0700, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one âconsiderationâ. It would
be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at
the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you
used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to
read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full
pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three
days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks
from all of us."
would that be something normally done during the notice period?
here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1 month for
every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told to just stay home
during that period, but you are still employed and can be told to work
as long as it something you would normally be doing
-Lasse
What if you find another employment during this period?
Severance payment is meant to help you through whilst
you are looking for another job, I presume.
I was looking at defense contractor jobs, I don't fit
any profile of what they want.
No ones looking for a jack of all trades physics type,
who has a lot of enthusiasm, but not a great communicator..
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 12:35:39 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 9:26:23 PM UTC-4, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:47:09 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:50:56 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 1:02:58 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one âconsiderationâ. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us."
would that be something normally done during the notice period?
here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1 month for
every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told to just stay home
during that period, but you are still employed and can be told to work
as long as it something you would normally be doing
-Lasse
Here in the rugged US, I think you can do whatever you want.
Unless there is some signed agreement.
George H.
That's the point. They typically ask you to sign an agreement like this *before* you take the job. However, it can't stop you from working for a competitor, it simply limits you from working in an area that would utilize specific, competitive knowledge in a way that is likely to involve trade secrets.
It effectively does. Not many marketing managers or vice-president of sales
are going to take a position stuffing boxes or mowing the lawn. And
an agreement can ban them from taking a corresponding position, ie the
one that they actually want and are qualified for.
Properly written agreements can, for all practical purposes,
prevent you from working for a competitor for a specific period of time.
Can they stop you from working at a competitor where you're taking a job
as a driver or maintenance guy? No. But they can probably enforce
an agreement where you're taking a job as the head of product design
or marketing manager for a competing product. Which of course is the
job you want. And even if they can't, are you willing to go to the
expense of trying to defend it in court?
Nope. The courts have ruled. You can't sign away your right to earn a living in a non-disclosure agreement. They can only protect their trade secret information, so as long as you aren't in a job where that particular info would have an impact on the product, they can't stop you.
There have been cases where the previous employer tried to use the non-compete to prevent employment at all in the same field.
Sure, there are such agreements that are too broad, poorly written,
etc. That doesn't mean that other, proper ones are all unenforceable..
The courts strike that down on the basis that this would potentially prevent the person from being employable at all. I don't see where the requested non-disclosure would be that onerous. Still, I would never sign such a document (or any other) on leaving a company.
The courts have ruled that there is no such thing as a "properly" written agreement that can take away your right to earn a living in the profession in which you are skilled. You just can't be in a job where your knowledge of trade secret info would be a factor.
More BS. The courts have enforced many of these agreements.
No one said such an agreement can take away your right to earn a living
in your profession. What we're talking about is an agreement that bars
you from working for a COMPETITOR for a specific period of time. And
many such agreements have been upheld by courts throughout the US.
Just because some were too broad and were ruled invalid, or some parts
were ruled invalid, while the rest was left standing,
does not mean that they are all invalid, that you
have nothing to worry about, that you can ignore such an agreement.
As I pointed out, if you're a design engineer working on a product
line at company A and have such an agreement, it's likely that it would
be upheld if you went to a direct competitor.
As it would if you were
a marketing manager or salesman. In those situations you have knowledge
of things like product roadmaps, strategic direction, customer relationships,
pricing, costs, etc. It would be virtually impossible for a marketing
manager at company A to go to a competitor and not have what he knows
enter into his thinking and decisions.
And it's the fact that there are all these factors and considerations that
come into play that means typically these cases have to be heard, a court
isn't going to just dismiss it. If you chose to ignore an agreement,
that's what you could face at a minimum, the company suing you to enforce
it and many are ultimately upheld, no matter what you claim. So, how
lucky do you feel and how much money are you prepared to pay to defend
it? That is very real.
What you can or can't see is not the matter. Nearly any contract can bite you in the ass at sometime, somewhere, somehow in a way that you never saw coming. Even if it doesn't, you would need to keep that agreement on hand and review it with every job you consider for the rest of your life.
Obviously you're clueless, because an enforceable agreement would rarely
be in effect for life. Typically they are for a year or two. Another
strawman detected and rejected.
Not worth the relatively small compensation for a few days work.
Probably not, but you were commenting on the general case of all
such agreements.
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 9:17:27 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
I was looking at defense contractor jobs, I don't fit
any profile of what they want.
All the DoD stuff, especially the so-called position descriptions, are total horseshit. They keep that crap on file for the occasional Pentagon audit and job advertisements, but that's where it ends. All they're looking for is a body they can bill the government for $250k annual. Depending on the sector, all you'll ever be required to do is breathe. If you don't mind interacting with a bunch of freak, dull, boring and near lifeless civil servants, who are good for nothing and ignorant as hell, go for it.
No ones looking for a jack of all trades physics type,
who has a lot of enthusiasm, but not a great communicator..
Hire a coach to make you into a "flash & dazzle" high energy speaker.
On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:47:09 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:50:56 PM UTC-4, George Herold
wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 1:02:58 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt
Christensen wrote:
mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George
Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one
âconsiderationâ. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you
would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people
there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such
as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read
your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your
full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover
everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be
received with sincere thanks from all of us."
would that be something normally done during the notice
period?
here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1
month for every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told
to just stay home during that period, but you are still
employed and can be told to work as long as it something you
would normally be doing
-Lasse
Here in the rugged US, I think you can do whatever you want.
Unless there is some signed agreement.
George H.
That's the point. They typically ask you to sign an agreement like
this *before* you take the job. However, it can't stop you from
working for a competitor, it simply limits you from working in an
area that would utilize specific, competitive knowledge in a way
that is likely to involve trade secrets.
Properly written agreements can, for all practical purposes, prevent
you from working for a competitor for a specific period of time. Can
they stop you from working at a competitor where you're taking a job
as a driver or maintenance guy? No. But they can probably enforce
an agreement where you're taking a job as the head of product design
or marketing manager for a competing product. Which of course is
the job you want. And even if they can't, are you willing to go to
the expense of trying to defend it in court?
There have been cases where the previous employer tried to use the
non-compete to prevent employment at all in the same field.
Sure, there are such agreements that are too broad, poorly written,
etc. That doesn't mean that other, proper ones are all
unenforceable.
The courts strike that down on the basis that this would potentially
prevent the person from being employable at all. I don't see where
the requested non-disclosure would be that onerous. Still, I would
never sign such a document (or any other) on leaving a company.
On 23/10/2019 02:26, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:47:09 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:50:56 PM UTC-4, George Herold
wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 1:02:58 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt
Christensen wrote:
mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George
Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one
âconsiderationâ. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you
would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people
there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such
as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read
your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your
full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover
everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be
received with sincere thanks from all of us."
would that be something normally done during the notice
period?
here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1
month for every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told
to just stay home during that period, but you are still
employed and can be told to work as long as it something you
would normally be doing
-Lasse
Here in the rugged US, I think you can do whatever you want.
Unless there is some signed agreement.
George H.
That's the point. They typically ask you to sign an agreement like
this *before* you take the job. However, it can't stop you from
working for a competitor, it simply limits you from working in an
area that would utilize specific, competitive knowledge in a way
that is likely to involve trade secrets.
Properly written agreements can, for all practical purposes, prevent
you from working for a competitor for a specific period of time. Can
they stop you from working at a competitor where you're taking a job
as a driver or maintenance guy? No. But they can probably enforce
an agreement where you're taking a job as the head of product design
or marketing manager for a competing product. Which of course is
the job you want. And even if they can't, are you willing to go to
the expense of trying to defend it in court?
Are they legally enforceable in the USA then? Or does it really just
rely on the corporates having much deeper pockets than mere mortals.
Even in the USA wouldn't a company that wanted a senior executive badly
enough indemnify them from any action their former employer might take
against them for jumping ship (assume headhunted for a competitor).
There have been cases where the previous employer tried to use the
non-compete to prevent employment at all in the same field.
Sure, there are such agreements that are too broad, poorly written,
etc. That doesn't mean that other, proper ones are all
unenforceable.
The courts strike that down on the basis that this would potentially
prevent the person from being employable at all. I don't see where
the requested non-disclosure would be that onerous. Still, I would
never sign such a document (or any other) on leaving a company.
That is pretty much how they fail in Europe. There are a limited number
of decent jobs for very senior technical experts in their field. I think
EU judgement normally hinges on the human right to earn a living.
On 23/10/2019 02:26, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:47:09 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:50:56 PM UTC-4, George Herold
wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 1:02:58 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt
Christensen wrote:
mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George
Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one
âconsiderationâ. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you
would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people
there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such
as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read
your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your
full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover
everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be
received with sincere thanks from all of us."
would that be something normally done during the notice
period?
here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1
month for every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told
to just stay home during that period, but you are still
employed and can be told to work as long as it something you
would normally be doing
-Lasse
Here in the rugged US, I think you can do whatever you want.
Unless there is some signed agreement.
George H.
That's the point. They typically ask you to sign an agreement like
this *before* you take the job. However, it can't stop you from
working for a competitor, it simply limits you from working in an
area that would utilize specific, competitive knowledge in a way
that is likely to involve trade secrets.
Properly written agreements can, for all practical purposes, prevent
you from working for a competitor for a specific period of time. Can
they stop you from working at a competitor where you're taking a job
as a driver or maintenance guy? No. But they can probably enforce
an agreement where you're taking a job as the head of product design
or marketing manager for a competing product. Which of course is
the job you want. And even if they can't, are you willing to go to
the expense of trying to defend it in court?
Are they legally enforceable in the USA then?
Even in the USA wouldn't a company that wanted a senior executive badly
enough indemnify them from any action their former employer might take
against them for jumping ship (assume headhunted for a competitor).
There have been cases where the previous employer tried to use the
non-compete to prevent employment at all in the same field.
Sure, there are such agreements that are too broad, poorly written,
etc. That doesn't mean that other, proper ones are all
unenforceable.
The courts strike that down on the basis that this would potentially
prevent the person from being employable at all. I don't see where
the requested non-disclosure would be that onerous. Still, I would
never sign such a document (or any other) on leaving a company.
That is pretty much how they fail in Europe. There are a limited number
of decent jobs for very senior technical experts in their field. I think
EU judgement normally hinges on the human right to earn a living.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:29:06 PM UTC-4, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 12:35:39 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 9:26:23 PM UTC-4, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:47:09 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:50:56 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 1:02:58 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one âconsiderationâ. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us."
would that be something normally done during the notice period?
here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1 month for
every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told to just stay home
during that period, but you are still employed and can be told to work
as long as it something you would normally be doing
-Lasse
Here in the rugged US, I think you can do whatever you want.
Unless there is some signed agreement.
George H.
That's the point. They typically ask you to sign an agreement like this *before* you take the job. However, it can't stop you from working for a competitor, it simply limits you from working in an area that would utilize specific, competitive knowledge in a way that is likely to involve trade secrets.
It effectively does. Not many marketing managers or vice-president of sales
are going to take a position stuffing boxes or mowing the lawn. And
an agreement can ban them from taking a corresponding position, ie the
one that they actually want and are qualified for.
It's clear you don't really want to discuss this or you wouldn't make up absurd examples like "stuffing boxes". You can work in your field as an engineer, even for a direct competitor, just in another area that doesn't utilize trade secrets from your previous employer.
Properly written agreements can, for all practical purposes,
prevent you from working for a competitor for a specific period of time.
Can they stop you from working at a competitor where you're taking a job
as a driver or maintenance guy? No. But they can probably enforce
an agreement where you're taking a job as the head of product design
or marketing manager for a competing product. Which of course is the
job you want. And even if they can't, are you willing to go to the
expense of trying to defend it in court?
Nope. The courts have ruled. You can't sign away your right to earn a living in a non-disclosure agreement. They can only protect their trade secret information, so as long as you aren't in a job where that particular info would have an impact on the product, they can't stop you.
There have been cases where the previous employer tried to use the non-compete to prevent employment at all in the same field.
Sure, there are such agreements that are too broad, poorly written,
etc. That doesn't mean that other, proper ones are all unenforceable.
The courts strike that down on the basis that this would potentially prevent the person from being employable at all. I don't see where the requested non-disclosure would be that onerous. Still, I would never sign such a document (or any other) on leaving a company.
The courts have ruled that there is no such thing as a "properly" written agreement that can take away your right to earn a living in the profession in which you are skilled. You just can't be in a job where your knowledge of trade secret info would be a factor.
More BS. The courts have enforced many of these agreements.
No one said such an agreement can take away your right to earn a living
in your profession. What we're talking about is an agreement that bars
you from working for a COMPETITOR for a specific period of time. And
many such agreements have been upheld by courts throughout the US.
Just because some were too broad and were ruled invalid, or some parts
were ruled invalid, while the rest was left standing,
does not mean that they are all invalid, that you
have nothing to worry about, that you can ignore such an agreement.
I never said any of that. Go back and read what I wrote and you will perhaps understand better.
As I pointed out, if you're a design engineer working on a product
line at company A and have such an agreement, it's likely that it would
be upheld if you went to a direct competitor.
As I have said, it depends much more on the specifics of the job, not just that you are working for a competitor. Believe what you wish.
As it would if you were
a marketing manager or salesman. In those situations you have knowledge
of things like product roadmaps, strategic direction, customer relationships,
pricing, costs, etc. It would be virtually impossible for a marketing
manager at company A to go to a competitor and not have what he knows
enter into his thinking and decisions.
That is true if the two jobs involved selling directly competing products.. However, typically in a sales job they don't even try to prevent you from selling competing products.
But this has nothing to do with engineers and trade secrets which is what I was talking about.
And it's the fact that there are all these factors and considerations that
come into play that means typically these cases have to be heard, a court
isn't going to just dismiss it. If you chose to ignore an agreement,
that's what you could face at a minimum, the company suing you to enforce
it and many are ultimately upheld, no matter what you claim. So, how
lucky do you feel and how much money are you prepared to pay to defend
it? That is very real.
Again, you seem to not have read what I wrote.
What you can or can't see is not the matter. Nearly any contract can bite you in the ass at sometime, somewhere, somehow in a way that you never saw coming. Even if it doesn't, you would need to keep that agreement on hand and review it with every job you consider for the rest of your life.
Obviously you're clueless, because an enforceable agreement would rarely
be in effect for life. Typically they are for a year or two. Another
strawman detected and rejected.
Sorry, trade secrets have no time limit. .
Not worth the relatively small compensation for a few days work.
Probably not, but you were commenting on the general case of all
such agreements.
So finally, we find we are in agreement. Hurrah!
--
Rick C.
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