OT Severance agreement, NDA, per diem pay?

[George Herold]

Hi all, Well talking with an attorney was a good thing. The rather vague
NDA was changed to the following.

"That Mr. Herold will not reveal any Trade Secrets of TeachSpin. “Trade Secrets” include client lists, formulas, plans, and designs maintained by TeachSpin under strict confidentiality, and known only to Mr. Herold due to his work at TeachSpin. Excluded from “Trade Secrets” are any information, technique, or technology known to the general population or available to the general public, or able to be discerned without access to information maintained by TeachSpin in confidence."

That seems fine to me.

My boss would like me to come in and "show 'em where the bodies
are buried"

Let me copy the particular section.

"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us."

I'm unsure how I feel about this.

George H.

 

[Winfield Hill]

George Herold wrote...

I believe we could cover everything in three days or less.

I'm unsure how I feel about this.

Everything of importance that you know, can be handed
over in three days. Hahahaha.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Martin Brown]

On 21/10/2019 15:39, George Herold wrote:

Hi all, Well talking with an attorney was a good thing. The rather vague
NDA was changed to the following.

"That Mr. Herold will not reveal any Trade Secrets of TeachSpin. “Trade Secrets” include client lists, formulas, plans, and designs maintained by TeachSpin under strict confidentiality, and known only to Mr. Herold due to his work at TeachSpin. Excluded from “Trade Secrets” are any information, technique, or technology known to the general population or available to the general public, or able to be discerned without access to information maintained by TeachSpin in confidence."

That seems fine to me.

I don't know what it is like in the USA but in the UK these sort of
lockout clauses are virtually unenforceable even when someone senior
goes to a direct competitor. It may be different in the USA.

I have always been very careful to honour NDA's since my ability to work
for a range of companies depends on them trusting me not to spill the
beans on any of their trade secrets (and they are mostly just that). We
only ever bothered to patent things that would generate a lockout spec.

My boss would like me to come in and "show 'em where the bodies
are buried"

Let me copy the particular section.

"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us."

I'm unsure how I feel about this.

I suggest you tell them that you would be prepared to do it at your new
consulting rate (and look up what ever that is in your locale). If you
have left with a lot of IP and knowledge that the company does not have
internally then you owe it to yourself not to sell out too cheaply.

They will come begging after a while when things start to go wrong and
customers are getting annoyed with them because they can no longer build
or support working kit they used to make.

Obviously it is your choice and depends how much like your previous
manager and company. They made you redundant so if your services are no
longer needed they will have to get by without you or else pay an
appropriate rate for your historical expertise, skill and knowledge.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 07:39:54 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<ggherold@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all, Well talking with an attorney was a good thing. The rather vague
NDA was changed to the following.

"That Mr. Herold will not reveal any Trade Secrets of TeachSpin. “Trade Secrets” include client lists, formulas, plans, and designs maintained by TeachSpin under strict confidentiality, and known only to Mr. Herold due to his work at TeachSpin. Excluded from “Trade Secrets” are any information, technique, or technology known to the general population or available to the general public, or able to be discerned without access to information maintained by TeachSpin in confidence."

That seems fine to me.

Yes. It's unlikely that you would have occasion to use that stuff
anyhow. A prior-art search will usually shut down any claims that an
ex-employer will make, and you probably have to keep future work
confidential, so how's he to know what you do?

My boss would like me to come in and "show 'em where the bodies
are buried"

Let me copy the particular section.

"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us."

I'm unsure how I feel about this.

Sounds expensive to me.

How about doing an honest but basic job of that (it's only 1-3 days!)
and signing up for a consulting arrangement, possibly retainer, for
the future?

He has no legal right to anything in your head. Make him pay for it.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 10:40:00 AM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:

Hi all, Well talking with an attorney was a good thing. The rather vague
NDA was changed to the following.

"That Mr. Herold will not reveal any Trade Secrets of TeachSpin. “Trade Secrets” include client lists, formulas, plans, and designs maintained by TeachSpin under strict confidentiality, and known only to Mr. Herold due to his work at TeachSpin. Excluded from “Trade Secrets” are any information, technique, or technology known to the general population or available to the general public, or able to be discerned without access to information maintained by TeachSpin in confidence."

That seems fine to me.

My boss would like me to come in and "show 'em where the bodies
are buried"

Let me copy the particular section.

"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us.."

I'm unsure how I feel about this.

George H.

I just came into this at this point, don't know what preceded it.
But if you were working there on salary and they now want you back to
"consult", then I'd say you deserve to be paid at a consulting day rate,
not at an employee salary rate. It's not typical to consult for a
few days at salaried employee rate, it would be much higher.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:

"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us.."

would that be something normally done during the notice period?

here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1 month for
every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told to just stay home
during that period, but you are still employed and can be told to work
as long as it something you would normally be doing

-Lasse

 

[George Herold]

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 11:33:43 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:

George Herold wrote...

I believe we could cover everything in three days or less.

I'm unsure how I feel about this.

Everything of importance that you know, can be handed
over in three days. Hahahaha.

Grin, well there is that. My note books are written for me
to go back and do something, not to teach someone else how to do it.
All sorts of 'knowledge' that isn't written down.
They run to the sloppy side too..
George H.

--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2019-10-21 10:39, George Herold wrote:

Hi all, Well talking with an attorney was a good thing. The rather
vague NDA was changed to the following.

"That Mr. Herold will not reveal any Trade Secrets of TeachSpin.
“Trade Secrets” include client lists, formulas, plans, and designs
maintained by TeachSpin under strict confidentiality, and known only
to Mr. Herold due to his work at TeachSpin. Excluded from “Trade
Secrets” are any information, technique, or technology known to the
general population or available to the general public, or able to be
discerned without access to information maintained by TeachSpin in
confidence."

That seems fine to me.

My boss would like me to come in and "show 'em where the bodies are
buried"

Let me copy the particular section.

"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It
would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3
days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the
things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are
stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would
receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover
everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received
with sincere thanks from all of us."

That and $2.75 will get him a bus ride. Assuming you've been treated as
badly as I understand, charge him as far up the nose as wouldn't
jeopardize your severance or your ability to come back for "knowing
where to kick' consulting.

Being out on your own is always a bit windy at first.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[George Herold]

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 11:45:49 AM UTC-4, Whoey Louie wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 10:40:00 AM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
Hi all, Well talking with an attorney was a good thing. The rather vague
NDA was changed to the following.

"That Mr. Herold will not reveal any Trade Secrets of TeachSpin. “Trade Secrets” include client lists, formulas, plans, and designs maintained by TeachSpin under strict confidentiality, and known only to Mr. Herold due to his work at TeachSpin. Excluded from “Trade Secrets” are any information, technique, or technology known to the general population or available to the general public, or able to be discerned without access to information maintained by TeachSpin in confidence."

That seems fine to me.

My boss would like me to come in and "show 'em where the bodies
are buried"

Let me copy the particular section.

"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us.."

I'm unsure how I feel about this.

George H.

I just came into this at this point, don't know what preceded it.
But if you were working there on salary and they now want you back to
"consult", then I'd say you deserve to be paid at a consulting day rate,
not at an employee salary rate. It's not typical to consult for a
few days at salaried employee rate, it would be much higher.

Right a consultant with a big gripe on his shoulder!

So what's a typical mark-up for a consultant?
When spit-balling my cost to the company I used $100/ hr.
I get about $35/hr before my taxes. but full health and
bonuses when times are good (more PO's :^)
(I don't really pay much attention to money.)


I was thinking at least $1k per day.
but maybe more?
$2k if have to train a certain someone.

I could go on testing stuff, and get a cut off the top.
That should pay more than training someone else.
You know.. I'm gonna want a pretty big cut!

George H.

 

[George Herold]

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 12:01:54 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 07:39:54 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
ggherold@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all, Well talking with an attorney was a good thing. The rather vague
NDA was changed to the following.

"That Mr. Herold will not reveal any Trade Secrets of TeachSpin. “Trade Secrets” include client lists, formulas, plans, and designs maintained by TeachSpin under strict confidentiality, and known only to Mr. Herold due to his work at TeachSpin. Excluded from “Trade Secrets” are any information, technique, or technology known to the general population or available to the general public, or able to be discerned without access to information maintained by TeachSpin in confidence."

That seems fine to me.

Yes. It's unlikely that you would have occasion to use that stuff
anyhow. A prior-art search will usually shut down any claims that an
ex-employer will make, and you probably have to keep future work
confidential, so how's he to know what you do?

I've shared all my 'trade secrets' here.. before they were
'trade secrets' and not just stuff I'd tried and it worked.
A single layer of teflon tape in fine threaded optics,
and shimming of helmholtz coils.

My boss would like me to come in and "show 'em where the bodies
are buried"

Let me copy the particular section.

"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us.."

I'm unsure how I feel about this.

Sounds expensive to me.

How about doing an honest but basic job of that (it's only 1-3 days!)
and signing up for a consulting arrangement, possibly retainer, for
the future?
Good idea, I'll do a few days, for whatever, part of leaving.

He has no legal right to anything in your head. Make him pay for it.

Right, There's a whole lab room full of equipment. It could
take days just to go through the various pieces of kit.
(I think I'll ignore the old kit along the wall that may or
may not turn on this time. I'm thinking of a wavemeter Jr.
that hasn't been on in ~5 years?)

The other PhD (and person who can run a 'scope)
is a genius type. He is happy telling me stuff,
but when I'm telling him stuff, I don't think he's
listening to me, but working on his comment which
will show, yet again, he's the smartest man in the room.

I've offered to show him many times how I do stuff,
but he has no interest.

The few times he has asked for my help, I've found to be very
unpleasant.
Maybe I can put in it's 3x for person X. ?

George H.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[George Herold]

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 1:02:58 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us.."


would that be something normally done during the notice period?

here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1 month for
every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told to just stay home
during that period, but you are still employed and can be told to work
as long as it something you would normally be doing

-Lasse

Here in the rugged US, I think you can do whatever you want.
Unless there is some signed agreement.

George H.

 

[George Herold]

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 12:40:05 PM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

On 21/10/2019 15:39, George Herold wrote:
Hi all, Well talking with an attorney was a good thing. The rather vague
NDA was changed to the following.

"That Mr. Herold will not reveal any Trade Secrets of TeachSpin. “Trade Secrets” include client lists, formulas, plans, and designs maintained by TeachSpin under strict confidentiality, and known only to Mr. Herold due to his work at TeachSpin. Excluded from “Trade Secrets” are any information, technique, or technology known to the general population or available to the general public, or able to be discerned without access to information maintained by TeachSpin in confidence."

That seems fine to me.

I don't know what it is like in the USA but in the UK these sort of
lockout clauses are virtually unenforceable even when someone senior
goes to a direct competitor. It may be different in the USA.

I have always been very careful to honour NDA's since my ability to work
for a range of companies depends on them trusting me not to spill the
beans on any of their trade secrets (and they are mostly just that). We
only ever bothered to patent things that would generate a lockout spec.

My boss would like me to come in and "show 'em where the bodies
are buried"

Let me copy the particular section.

"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us.."

I'm unsure how I feel about this.

I suggest you tell them that you would be prepared to do it at your new
consulting rate (and look up what ever that is in your locale). If you
have left with a lot of IP and knowledge that the company does not have
internally then you owe it to yourself not to sell out too cheaply.

Besides care and feeding of several electronic circuits,
There are four instruments that are 'my babies'.
I do all care, feeding, final testing and tweaking/ shimming.
Vendor and customer questions.

They will come begging after a while when things start to go wrong and
customers are getting annoyed with them because they can no longer build
or support working kit they used to make.

Right, I think they are f'd w/o me... or hiring my
replacement quickly. Or ship poorer quality instruments,
which is the most probably outcome.
George H.

Obviously it is your choice and depends how much like your previous
manager and company. They made you redundant so if your services are no
longer needed they will have to get by without you or else pay an
appropriate rate for your historical expertise, skill and knowledge.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[George Herold]

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2019-10-21 10:39, George Herold wrote:
Hi all, Well talking with an attorney was a good thing. The rather
vague NDA was changed to the following.

"That Mr. Herold will not reveal any Trade Secrets of TeachSpin.
“Trade Secrets” include client lists, formulas, plans, and designs
maintained by TeachSpin under strict confidentiality, and known only
to Mr. Herold due to his work at TeachSpin. Excluded from “Trade
Secrets” are any information, technique, or technology known to the
general population or available to the general public, or able to be
discerned without access to information maintained by TeachSpin in
confidence."

That seems fine to me.

My boss would like me to come in and "show 'em where the bodies are
buried"

Let me copy the particular section.

"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It
would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3
days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the
things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are
stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would
receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover
everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received
with sincere thanks from all of us."

That and $2.75 will get him a bus ride. Assuming you've been treated as
badly as I understand, charge him as far up the nose as wouldn't
jeopardize your severance or your ability to come back for "knowing
where to kick' consulting.

Oh dear Phil, I haven't told you the half of it,
but it's complicated and I'm not without blame.
Bar stools or kitchen chairs sometime.
But I mostly agree. I want to separate the severance thingie
and whatever comes after.

Being out on your own is always a bit windy at first.

I was looking at defense contractor jobs, I don't fit
any profile of what they want.
No ones looking for a jack of all trades physics type,
who has a lot of enthusiasm, but not a great communicator..

There are university/ college lab guy jobs,
but.. colleges these days. With the right chairman (boss)
a lab guy job could work.

George H.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Martin Brown]

On 21/10/2019 18:02, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It
would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3
days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me),
the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things
are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you
would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could
cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be
received with sincere thanks from all of us."

would that be something normally done during the notice period?

It might be depending on your level of seniority or the potential damage
you could do if left in situ. I have known everything from being forced
to work out your entire notice (happened to my boss as CEO) to being
escorted off the premises with a black bin bag an hour after resigning -
happened to one of my direct reports (I thought somewhat unfairly).

Neither works particularly well. A CEO who is intending to leave doesn't
try anything like as hard as one who is truly committed to the success
of his company and abrupt changes to busy technical staff leaves a lot
of work in progress gaps and threads hanging that take much more time
for someone else to pick up without a controlled handover.

Some sort of handover and holiday combination may be the optimum but if
a company has just made someone good gratuitously redundant they are
more than likely to be talking to lawyers to force the best financial
settlement and disinclined to be helpful to their former employer. YMMV

here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1 month for
every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told to just stay
home during that period, but you are still employed and can be told
to work as long as it something you would normally be doing

My wife ended up with three months gardening leave after the company she
worked for decided to cut overheads by firing all its chief scientists
and just concentrating on manufacturing products that they already had.
It is a well known way to fatten up the bottom line before selling on -
and hoping that the buyer doesn't notice the product pipeline stall.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 6:57:27 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 11:33:43 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

I believe we could cover everything in three days or less.

I'm unsure how I feel about this.

Everything of importance that you know, can be handed
over in three days. Hahahaha.

Grin, well there is that. My note books are written for me
to go back and do something, not to teach someone else how to do it.
All sorts of 'knowledge' that isn't written down.
They run to the sloppy side too..
George H.

Perhaps you could explain your situation a bit better? Is this a company you work for as an employee and you are leaving to work for yourself? If so, why on earth would you sign ANY non-disclosure agreement at all??? I don't see any upside to you for this unless you are expecting them to hire you back or employ you as a consultant. I don't see three days work as being adequate for signing a document that can only bite you in the ass with no other upside.

Non-disclosures are normally signed before you are hired? I was leaving a company once and the exit interviewer rather was insisting that I sign some document reiterating some of the things they expected from me and I had to ask why they thought I would sign any such thing. He stopped asking.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER sign anything you aren't getting paid for in some way. If there's no upside for you, just don't sign no matter how harmless you expect it to be.

--

Rick C.

- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:50:56 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 1:02:58 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us."


would that be something normally done during the notice period?

here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1 month for
every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told to just stay home
during that period, but you are still employed and can be told to work
as long as it something you would normally be doing

-Lasse

Here in the rugged US, I think you can do whatever you want.
Unless there is some signed agreement.

George H.

That's the point. They typically ask you to sign an agreement like this *before* you take the job. However, it can't stop you from working for a competitor, it simply limits you from working in an area that would utilize specific, competitive knowledge in a way that is likely to involve trade secrets.

There have been cases where the previous employer tried to use the non-compete to prevent employment at all in the same field. The courts strike that down on the basis that this would potentially prevent the person from being employable at all. I don't see where the requested non-disclosure would be that onerous. Still, I would never sign such a document (or any other) on leaving a company.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:47:09 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:50:56 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 1:02:58 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us."


would that be something normally done during the notice period?

here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1 month for
every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told to just stay home
during that period, but you are still employed and can be told to work
as long as it something you would normally be doing

-Lasse

Here in the rugged US, I think you can do whatever you want.
Unless there is some signed agreement.

George H.

That's the point. They typically ask you to sign an agreement like this *before* you take the job. However, it can't stop you from working for a competitor, it simply limits you from working in an area that would utilize specific, competitive knowledge in a way that is likely to involve trade secrets.

Properly written agreements can, for all practical purposes,
prevent you from working for a competitor for a specific period of time.
Can they stop you from working at a competitor where you're taking a job
as a driver or maintenance guy? No. But they can probably enforce
an agreement where you're taking a job as the head of product design
or marketing manager for a competing product. Which of course is the
job you want. And even if they can't, are you willing to go to the
expense of trying to defend it in court?

There have been cases where the previous employer tried to use the non-compete to prevent employment at all in the same field.

Sure, there are such agreements that are too broad, poorly written,
etc. That doesn't mean that other, proper ones are all unenforceable.



The courts strike that down on the basis that this would potentially prevent the person from being employable at all. I don't see where the requested non-disclosure would be that onerous. Still, I would never sign such a document (or any other) on leaving a company.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 9:15:30 PM UTC-4, Whoey Louie wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:28:53 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 6:57:27 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 11:33:43 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

I believe we could cover everything in three days or less.

I'm unsure how I feel about this.

Everything of importance that you know, can be handed
over in three days. Hahahaha.

Grin, well there is that. My note books are written for me
to go back and do something, not to teach someone else how to do it.
All sorts of 'knowledge' that isn't written down.
They run to the sloppy side too..
George H.

Perhaps you could explain your situation a bit better? Is this a company you work for as an employee and you are leaving to work for yourself? If so, why on earth would you sign ANY non-disclosure agreement at all??? I don't see any upside to you for this unless you are expecting them to hire you back or employ you as a consultant. I don't see three days work as being adequate for signing a document that can only bite you in the ass with no other upside.

Non-disclosures are normally signed before you are hired? I was leaving a company once and the exit interviewer rather was insisting that I sign some document reiterating some of the things they expected from me and I had to ask why they thought I would sign any such thing. He stopped asking.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER sign anything you aren't getting paid for in some way. If there's no upside for you, just don't sign no matter how harmless you expect it to be.


You refuse package deliveries where you have to sign?
Signing for a ticket a cop is issuing to you?
Signing a rental car agreement?
And if someone offered you $10 for your house, signing it is OK?

Blanket statements are quite foolish.

My "blanket" statement was totally reasonable. You seem to not have understood it. Sorry. I'll write more slowly next time.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:28:53 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 6:57:27 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 11:33:43 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

I believe we could cover everything in three days or less.

I'm unsure how I feel about this.

Everything of importance that you know, can be handed
over in three days. Hahahaha.

Grin, well there is that. My note books are written for me
to go back and do something, not to teach someone else how to do it.
All sorts of 'knowledge' that isn't written down.
They run to the sloppy side too..
George H.

Perhaps you could explain your situation a bit better? Is this a company you work for as an employee and you are leaving to work for yourself? If so, why on earth would you sign ANY non-disclosure agreement at all??? I don't see any upside to you for this unless you are expecting them to hire you back or employ you as a consultant. I don't see three days work as being adequate for signing a document that can only bite you in the ass with no other upside.

Non-disclosures are normally signed before you are hired? I was leaving a company once and the exit interviewer rather was insisting that I sign some document reiterating some of the things they expected from me and I had to ask why they thought I would sign any such thing. He stopped asking.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER sign anything you aren't getting paid for in some way.. If there's no upside for you, just don't sign no matter how harmless you expect it to be.

You refuse package deliveries where you have to sign?
Signing for a ticket a cop is issuing to you?
Signing a rental car agreement?
And if someone offered you $10 for your house, signing it is OK?

Blanket statements are quite foolish.

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 9:26:23 PM UTC-4, Whoey Louie wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:47:09 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:50:56 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 1:02:58 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 21. oktober 2019 kl. 16.40.00 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:
"For my part, I would like to ask you for one “consideration”. It would be a great help to TeachSpin if you would agree to spend 1-3 days at the factory showing 'people there'(names removed by me), the things you used to do, such as building, testing, where things are stored, how to read your data books, etc. For this work you would receive your full pay on a per diem basis. I believe we could cover everything in three days or less. As I said, this would be received with sincere thanks from all of us."


would that be something normally done during the notice period?

here if you are salaried and get fired you get 3 month + 1 month for
every 3 years of employment notice. You might be told to just stay home
during that period, but you are still employed and can be told to work
as long as it something you would normally be doing

-Lasse

Here in the rugged US, I think you can do whatever you want.
Unless there is some signed agreement.

George H.

That's the point. They typically ask you to sign an agreement like this *before* you take the job. However, it can't stop you from working for a competitor, it simply limits you from working in an area that would utilize specific, competitive knowledge in a way that is likely to involve trade secrets.

Properly written agreements can, for all practical purposes,
prevent you from working for a competitor for a specific period of time.
Can they stop you from working at a competitor where you're taking a job
as a driver or maintenance guy? No. But they can probably enforce
an agreement where you're taking a job as the head of product design
or marketing manager for a competing product. Which of course is the
job you want. And even if they can't, are you willing to go to the
expense of trying to defend it in court?

Nope. The courts have ruled. You can't sign away your right to earn a living in a non-disclosure agreement. They can only protect their trade secret information, so as long as you aren't in a job where that particular info would have an impact on the product, they can't stop you.

There have been cases where the previous employer tried to use the non-compete to prevent employment at all in the same field.

Sure, there are such agreements that are too broad, poorly written,
etc. That doesn't mean that other, proper ones are all unenforceable.



The courts strike that down on the basis that this would potentially prevent the person from being employable at all. I don't see where the requested non-disclosure would be that onerous. Still, I would never sign such a document (or any other) on leaving a company.

The courts have ruled that there is no such thing as a "properly" written agreement that can take away your right to earn a living in the profession in which you are skilled. You just can't be in a job where your knowledge of trade secret info would be a factor.

What you can or can't see is not the matter. Nearly any contract can bite you in the ass at sometime, somewhere, somehow in a way that you never saw coming. Even if it doesn't, you would need to keep that agreement on hand and review it with every job you consider for the rest of your life. Not worth the relatively small compensation for a few days work.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209