OT: reaction to Iraqi elections

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that richard mullens <mullensdeletethis
@ntlworld.com> wrote (in <iZ6Vd.965$a47.172@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net&gt about
'OT: reaction to Iraqi elections', on Tue, 1 Mar 2005:

There is one precedent - the fall of the Iron curtain. Successful in
some places, but not so in Chechnia.

Chechnia is a special case. It has several factions among the population
that hate each other. None is strong enough to hold power alone and a
coalition is unthinkable to them. Some, maybe all, of these factions are
involved in criminal activity as well as nominally being political
movements.

If Russia left them alone, there would be civil war, as in the former
Yugoslavia. The insurgents in Iraq are trying to create those conditions
there.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:55:58 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax
<dirk@neopax.com> wrote:

John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that richard mullens <mullensdeletethis
@ntlworld.com> wrote (in <iZ6Vd.965$a47.172@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net&gt about
'OT: reaction to Iraqi elections', on Tue, 1 Mar 2005:


There is one precedent - the fall of the Iron curtain. Successful in
some places, but not so in Chechnia.


Chechnia is a special case. It has several factions among the population
that hate each other. None is strong enough to hold power alone and a
coalition is unthinkable to them. Some, maybe all, of these factions are
involved in criminal activity as well as nominally being political
movements.

If Russia left them alone, there would be civil war, as in the former
Yugoslavia. The insurgents in Iraq are trying to create those conditions
there.

The joys of a truly multicultural nation.

The US is getting pretty multicultural, especially here in California.
San Francisco has no racial majority and is over 30% asian by now.
Seems to work just fine. I guess it's easier to assimilate as an
immigrant, as opposed to living on your home turf that's been disputed
for 1000 years or so.

John

 

[Dirk Bruere at Neopax]

John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:55:58 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax
dirk@neopax.com> wrote:


John Woodgate wrote:


I read in sci.electronics.design that richard mullens <mullensdeletethis
@ntlworld.com> wrote (in <iZ6Vd.965$a47.172@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net&gt about
'OT: reaction to Iraqi elections', on Tue, 1 Mar 2005:



There is one precedent - the fall of the Iron curtain. Successful in
some places, but not so in Chechnia.


Chechnia is a special case. It has several factions among the population
that hate each other. None is strong enough to hold power alone and a
coalition is unthinkable to them. Some, maybe all, of these factions are
involved in criminal activity as well as nominally being political
movements.

If Russia left them alone, there would be civil war, as in the former
Yugoslavia. The insurgents in Iraq are trying to create those conditions
there.

The joys of a truly multicultural nation.



The US is getting pretty multicultural, especially here in California.
San Francisco has no racial majority and is over 30% asian by now.
Seems to work just fine. I guess it's easier to assimilate as an
immigrant, as opposed to living on your home turf that's been disputed
for 1000 years or so.

I suspect your turn is coming.
On a local level it's arrived in many places, but nationally I suspect the US is
about 60-100yrs away from being the new Balkans.

--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:12:55 +0000, the renowned Dirk Bruere at Neopax

I suspect your turn is coming.
On a local level it's arrived in many places, but nationally I suspect the US is
about 60-100yrs away from being the new Balkans.

Sounds like John has time to finish his latte.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Dirk Bruere at Neopax]

John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:12:55 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax
dirk@neopax.com> wrote:


John Larkin wrote:


On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:55:58 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax
dirk@neopax.com> wrote:



John Woodgate wrote:



I read in sci.electronics.design that richard mullens <mullensdeletethis
@ntlworld.com> wrote (in <iZ6Vd.965$a47.172@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net&gt about
'OT: reaction to Iraqi elections', on Tue, 1 Mar 2005:




There is one precedent - the fall of the Iron curtain. Successful in
some places, but not so in Chechnia.


Chechnia is a special case. It has several factions among the population
that hate each other. None is strong enough to hold power alone and a
coalition is unthinkable to them. Some, maybe all, of these factions are
involved in criminal activity as well as nominally being political
movements.

If Russia left them alone, there would be civil war, as in the former
Yugoslavia. The insurgents in Iraq are trying to create those conditions
there.

The joys of a truly multicultural nation.



The US is getting pretty multicultural, especially here in California.
San Francisco has no racial majority and is over 30% asian by now.
Seems to work just fine. I guess it's easier to assimilate as an
immigrant, as opposed to living on your home turf that's been disputed
for 1000 years or so.

I suspect your turn is coming.
On a local level it's arrived in many places, but nationally I suspect the US is
about 60-100yrs away from being the new Balkans.


But everybody is marrying everybody else, and the schoolkids are
making all sorts of friends. My kid had mostly asian friends in
school, pretty much by accident. The US has absorbed all sorts of
weird undesirables in the past (Swedes, Italians, even Irish!) and
turned them into good citizens. My company is a mix of latino, asian,
pacific islander, anglo, german, portugese, muslim, gay, and lesbian
folks; nobody here even notices stuff like that any more. Our friends
are Brazilian, French (that pair soon to be married), VietNamese,
Chinese, black, whatever; it makes meals interesting.

It's never the middle classes that cause the trouble.

--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 23:39:06 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax
<dirk@neopax.com> wrote:

I suspect your turn is coming.
On a local level it's arrived in many places, but nationally I suspect the US is
about 60-100yrs away from being the new Balkans.


But everybody is marrying everybody else, and the schoolkids are
making all sorts of friends. My kid had mostly asian friends in
school, pretty much by accident. The US has absorbed all sorts of
weird undesirables in the past (Swedes, Italians, even Irish!) and
turned them into good citizens. My company is a mix of latino, asian,
pacific islander, anglo, german, portugese, muslim, gay, and lesbian
folks; nobody here even notices stuff like that any more. Our friends
are Brazilian, French (that pair soon to be married), VietNamese,
Chinese, black, whatever; it makes meals interesting.

It's never the middle classes that cause the trouble.

Really, you seem fixated on gloom and destruction. Some people
tempermentally just are that way. But the world has been getting
better for some time now, and will with a bit of luck keep doing so.

Read "The Progress Paradox." Excellent stuff.

John

 

[Dirk Bruere at Neopax]

John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 23:39:06 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax
dirk@neopax.com> wrote:



I suspect your turn is coming.
On a local level it's arrived in many places, but nationally I suspect the US is
about 60-100yrs away from being the new Balkans.


But everybody is marrying everybody else, and the schoolkids are
making all sorts of friends. My kid had mostly asian friends in
school, pretty much by accident. The US has absorbed all sorts of
weird undesirables in the past (Swedes, Italians, even Irish!) and
turned them into good citizens. My company is a mix of latino, asian,
pacific islander, anglo, german, portugese, muslim, gay, and lesbian
folks; nobody here even notices stuff like that any more. Our friends
are Brazilian, French (that pair soon to be married), VietNamese,
Chinese, black, whatever; it makes meals interesting.

It's never the middle classes that cause the trouble.


Really, you seem fixated on gloom and destruction. Some people
tempermentally just are that way. But the world has been getting
better for some time now, and will with a bit of luck keep doing so.

Depends.
It's certainly not getting better for the most multicultural continent of all.

--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 00:55:30 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax
<dirk@neopax.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 23:39:06 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax
dirk@neopax.com> wrote:



I suspect your turn is coming.
On a local level it's arrived in many places, but nationally I suspect the US is
about 60-100yrs away from being the new Balkans.


But everybody is marrying everybody else, and the schoolkids are
making all sorts of friends. My kid had mostly asian friends in
school, pretty much by accident. The US has absorbed all sorts of
weird undesirables in the past (Swedes, Italians, even Irish!) and
turned them into good citizens. My company is a mix of latino, asian,
pacific islander, anglo, german, portugese, muslim, gay, and lesbian
folks; nobody here even notices stuff like that any more. Our friends
are Brazilian, French (that pair soon to be married), VietNamese,
Chinese, black, whatever; it makes meals interesting.

It's never the middle classes that cause the trouble.


Really, you seem fixated on gloom and destruction. Some people
tempermentally just are that way. But the world has been getting
better for some time now, and will with a bit of luck keep doing so.

Depends.
It's certainly not getting better for the most multicultural continent of all.

Which is....?

John

 

[Jim Yanik]

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote in
news:89ac21hfp6shetsknma3qq1s7avaubhuum@4ax.com:

The US is getting pretty multicultural, especially here in California.
San Francisco has no racial majority and is over 30% asian by now.
Seems to work just fine. I guess it's easier to assimilate as an
immigrant, as opposed to living on your home turf that's been disputed
for 1000 years or so.

John

What do you think of the MechA plans to return California and the rest of
the Southwest to Mexico?

It seems a lot of the Hispanics are NOT assimilating.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On 3 Mar 2005 01:50:32 GMT, the renowned Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.>
wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote in
news:89ac21hfp6shetsknma3qq1s7avaubhuum@4ax.com:


The US is getting pretty multicultural, especially here in California.
San Francisco has no racial majority and is over 30% asian by now.
Seems to work just fine. I guess it's easier to assimilate as an
immigrant, as opposed to living on your home turf that's been disputed
for 1000 years or so.

John




What do you think of the MechA plans to return California and the rest of
the Southwest to Mexico?

Aztlán.. or take a few Mexican states and a few US states to form a
new country.

It seems a lot of the Hispanics are NOT assimilating.

13% of the US population and 40% of the population growth. And 10
years younger median age than the population as a whole.

http://www.aztlan.net/newaztlan.gif

(map lifted out of here):
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-3.pdf)

So they might get to 25% of the total US population by 2050.

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/usinterimproj/natprojtab01a.pdf

But is there any sign of any popular support, say in areas of Texas
that are already majority Hispanic? Or Los Angeles, for that matter?
The Hispanic Angelinos I knew were too busy tending their kids and
gardens and barbecuing in their back yards to want to do anything
separatist. Any nutbar can set up a web site and promote white
supremacy or separatism or anti-semitism-- doesn't mean many people
are listening.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[richard mullens]

Mark Jones wrote:

richard mullens wrote:

You make my point.
It is the failure of those in control in the USA to listen that has
resulted in this fiasco.



Here's the abridged version: slaves of the UK get transported to America, most
die. Those which live, eventually fight back and win, marking the new country
"theirs" with great pride. A few hundred years go by and those people still
haven't forgotten their ancestry. Is it their fault they feel for the Iraqi
people, who are undergoing a similar situation? I don't see you, mister,
concerned at all about Iraq. It's funny how hearless most UK people can seem.
Cold. Not that anyone else should "save" Iraq from a tyrannical government, but
if we don't do it, who will? Surely not you. Most Americans are guilty of only
one thing: having too big a heart. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe it's a bad
thing. But it is what it is, so deal with it.

Did anyone else see the documentary last night about Nicoletta and the slave
girls for sale in Russia, Mexico, Bukarest, etc? Think slavery is abolished?
People are actually SELLING other people - for as little as a thousand dollars.
Now *that* shit is wrong, and needs to have something done about it. But will
Mr. Mullens do anything about it? Doubtful, he'd rather let America do all the
work from the other side of the globe. It sure is nice once all the dirty work
is done though, right? Then America is my buddy.

I wouldn't be so hasty thinking how great the world is, without considering all
that America has done. Yeah, there's been flops too, like Watergate, Enron,
Vietnam. But all-in-all, doesn't the positives outweigh the negatives?

That said, nearly half the US population thinks Bush is an uber-moron, so
you're not alone. Last I heard, he was talking about having China privatize (buy
up) our social security... wasn't it Nostradamus who said that a clown was going
to be elected into office in 2004 and lots of bad stuff would entail? There
might be a grain of truth to this...

EOF

Hi,
There's stuff that's wrong in the USA. For instance you have the largest
per-capita prison population by far in the civilised world. I suggest that the
policy should be to sort out your own country before marching off into others.

Personally, I supported the invasion of Afghanistan because it seemed to me that
those taliban clerics were giving the female population a hard time. Whipping
them in the street for example, forbidding education to girls etc etc.
But then the USA lost focus.

But don't tell me that there aren't pimps in the USA enslaving girls. There are
criminals everywhere who exploit the weak. The best way to deal with it is to
support the rule of law and by getting law enforcement agencies to co-operate.
In the UK of course, we marginalise the asylum seekers & illegal immigrants.
We forbid them to work, demonise them in the gutter press and make them generally
feel unwelcome. It is no wonder then that some fall victim to the unscrupulous.
Instead we should be welcoming them. They at least have the energy to get off
their arses. They are just the people that we need in the main.

 

[John Larkin]

On 3 Mar 2005 01:50:32 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote in
news:89ac21hfp6shetsknma3qq1s7avaubhuum@4ax.com:


The US is getting pretty multicultural, especially here in California.
San Francisco has no racial majority and is over 30% asian by now.
Seems to work just fine. I guess it's easier to assimilate as an
immigrant, as opposed to living on your home turf that's been disputed
for 1000 years or so.

John




What do you think of the MechA plans to return California and the rest of
the Southwest to Mexico?

It seems a lot of the Hispanics are NOT assimilating.

My current (and previous) PCB layout designers were Mexican-Americans.
They were both amazing with Pads and Autocad and Solidworks. They seem
pretty happy to be Americans to me.

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 03:45:08 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax
<dirk@neopax.com> wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On 3 Mar 2005 01:50:32 GMT, the renowned Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.
wrote:


John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote in
news:89ac21hfp6shetsknma3qq1s7avaubhuum@4ax.com:


The US is getting pretty multicultural, especially here in California.
San Francisco has no racial majority and is over 30% asian by now.
Seems to work just fine. I guess it's easier to assimilate as an
immigrant, as opposed to living on your home turf that's been disputed
for 1000 years or so.

John




What do you think of the MechA plans to return California and the rest of
the Southwest to Mexico?


Aztlán.. or take a few Mexican states and a few US states to form a
new country.


It seems a lot of the Hispanics are NOT assimilating.


13% of the US population and 40% of the population growth. And 10
years younger median age than the population as a whole.

http://www.aztlan.net/newaztlan.gif

(map lifted out of here):
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-3.pdf)

So they might get to 25% of the total US population by 2050.

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/usinterimproj/natprojtab01a.pdf

But is there any sign of any popular support, say in areas of Texas
that are already majority Hispanic? Or Los Angeles, for that matter?
The Hispanic Angelinos I knew were too busy tending their kids and
gardens and barbecuing in their back yards to want to do anything
separatist. Any nutbar can set up a web site and promote white
supremacy or separatism or anti-semitism-- doesn't mean many people
are listening.

That's why I put the break up of the US around 2060.
Some 25yrs after the US is overtaken by China and 'end of empire' really starts
to bite.

I don't know what you mean by "overtaken" or by "empire."

China will be a modern democracy by then, and likely a good friend and
partner to the US. If any part of the developed world is in for tough
times, it's Europe and maybe Russia.

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 14:33:11 -0500, Mark Jones <abuse@127.0.0.1>
wrote:

Richard the Dreaded Libertarian wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:52:11 -0500, Mark Jones wrote:


Nobody wants to talk bad about their president, ...


Bull Shit.

What namby-pamby country of slaves are you living in?



The USSA, of course.

The point was, that (at least in my elementary school days) we pledged
allegance to the flag, and thought it was a major offense to deface your
president. Nowadays though, it seems like any other heyday pasttime - give 'ol
Bush some extra licks for good measure.

In past times, especially the 19th century, attacks on the President
were far more vicious and scurrilous than anything we've seen in our
lifetime.

John

 

[Dirk Bruere at Neopax]

John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 03:45:08 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax
dirk@neopax.com> wrote:


Spehro Pefhany wrote:


On 3 Mar 2005 01:50:32 GMT, the renowned Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.
wrote:



John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote in
news:89ac21hfp6shetsknma3qq1s7avaubhuum@4ax.com:



The US is getting pretty multicultural, especially here in California.
San Francisco has no racial majority and is over 30% asian by now.
Seems to work just fine. I guess it's easier to assimilate as an
immigrant, as opposed to living on your home turf that's been disputed
for 1000 years or so.

John




What do you think of the MechA plans to return California and the rest of
the Southwest to Mexico?


Aztlán.. or take a few Mexican states and a few US states to form a
new country.



It seems a lot of the Hispanics are NOT assimilating.


13% of the US population and 40% of the population growth. And 10
years younger median age than the population as a whole.

http://www.aztlan.net/newaztlan.gif

(map lifted out of here):
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-3.pdf)

So they might get to 25% of the total US population by 2050.

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/usinterimproj/natprojtab01a.pdf

But is there any sign of any popular support, say in areas of Texas
that are already majority Hispanic? Or Los Angeles, for that matter?
The Hispanic Angelinos I knew were too busy tending their kids and
gardens and barbecuing in their back yards to want to do anything
separatist. Any nutbar can set up a web site and promote white
supremacy or separatism or anti-semitism-- doesn't mean many people
are listening.

That's why I put the break up of the US around 2060.
Some 25yrs after the US is overtaken by China and 'end of empire' really starts
to bite.


I don't know what you mean by "overtaken" or by "empire."

Put a flag in every place US troops are stationed and then tell me there's no US
empire.

As for overtaken, China will outstrip the US in all fields including economic
and military by 2035, and continue on from there.

China will be a modern democracy by then, and likely a good friend and
partner to the US. If any part of the developed world is in for tough
times, it's Europe and maybe Russia.

China is China. It will not be a copy of the West and will be looking after its
own interests first. The US is going to have to get used to no longer being top
dog and doing pretty much what it wants in the world. That will be the place of
China.

If the US takes its loss of empire as well as Britain then you might survive as
a nation, but I'm not optimistic.

--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

 

Hello from "Old Europe"

 

[Dirk Bruere at Neopax]

soar2morrow@yahoo.com wrote:

Hello from "Old Europe"

Learn to speak Chinese.

Or, failing that, Spanish.

--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:18:18 GMT, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian
<eatmyshorts@doubleclick.net> wrote:

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:13:22 -0800, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 20:51:33 GMT, richard mullens

Keep telling yourself those lies - but don't expect anyone else to
believe them. The vast majority of the troops who have no business being
there are American.

Of course there may be some "insurgents" from Syria and other places,
but the majority are from the indigenous population and take exception
to the alien invader.

I really hate to disappoint you, but peace is threatening to break out
all over the place.

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/40527.htm

http://www.knoxstudio.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=EGYPT-02-28-05&cat=II

http://middle-east.news.designerz.com/palestinians-look-to-london-conference-to-pave-a-way-to-peace-gathering.html?d20050228

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200503/s1312937.htm

Yeah, Syria, Egypt, Palestine and Lebanon have all made overtures to
suck up to King George.

Ain't it great!

They know where the weapons of mass destruction really are, and whose
finger is on the button.

Exactly. So the question for you and Mr Mullens and others is:

If W's policies turn out, in the long run, to materially increase the
peace, prosperity, health, and democracy of the entire world, will you
be terribly disappointed?

John

 

[Paul Burke]

John Larkin wrote:

In past times, especially the 19th century, attacks on the President
were far more vicious and scurrilous than anything we've seen in our
lifetime.

I don't know, I thought the attack on Kennedy was a bit vicious- or was
it suicide?

Paul Burke

 

[Jim Yanik]

Rich The Philosophizer <rtp@example.net> wrote in
newsan.2005.02.28.20.25.51.571159@example.net:

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:06:35 -0800, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:52:11 -0500, Mark Jones <abuse@127.0.0.1
wrote:

Many Americans don't agree with the US government's direction
either. Of
course, the capture of Bin Laden should (and did) warrant military
action, but I think the whole Iraq-thing stemmed from Bush Sr.'s
failure to oust Saddam in his term. (Bush Jr. is proving his daddy
proud!) Did I mention that Bush is an uber-moron?


He's just ahead of his time, because he sees the inevitable course of
history and wants to speed things along in that direction. Actually,
it seems to be working. Of course he's not an intellectual or a
genius, but he's smart enough to see the obvious, which most
intellectuals aren't.


What's this "obvious" thing "He" "sees?"

That the spread of democracy in the ME will lead to more security for all.
I note that Lebanon is demanding that Syria leave their country per UN
resolutions,that Libya -voluntarily- gave up ther nuke program and
materials,and that Syria just released Saddam's wanted half-brother to the
US. Iran is initiating real elections,same for Egypt.

The only thing that springs to mind is,

In -your- warped mind.

"Hey! That guy is killing people. How do we fix that? Hmmmm... Ah!
Got it! Go Kill some MORE people. That'll fix it!"

Ah,then you would have done nothing when Hitler was exterminating the
Jews,while making war across Europe.
Or the conflict in the Balkans,or the current genocide in Africa.

If you allow warmakers to exist on your planet, then you are a
collaborator or a dupe.

If they are warmakers,how would one stop them from making war,without
making war themselves? What are YOU doing to prevent the genocide in
Darfur?

Wasn't it some famous guy a couple of thousand years ago, who said,
"Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

And yet someone else said "smite those who would smite you." or the
equivalent.

May Mother have mercy on you.

Thanks,
Rich

for further information, please visit http://www.godchannel.com

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net