OT! OT! Hard Drive Cloning

Tom Del Rosso · Jan 12, 2004

In news:gCkMb.26925$sv6.78606@attbi_s52,
Linear typed:

You can get a little more life out of the old drive if you do a
scandisk in thorough mode (with autofix enabled) and let it map the
bad sectors so you don't try to write to them. If you don't you are
inviting crashes everytime the computer tries to use one of the bad
sectors.

But, for the past 10 years, HDs remap sectors internally from a pool of
spare sectors. The thorough test of Scandisk and Norton is useless.
For Scandisk it was always useless, because, as I have seen, when it
tested sectors I knew to be bad it simply took longer, because it was
retrying them and then reporting them as good.

--
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-and remove the obvious-

Tom Del Rosso · Jan 12, 2004

In news:btucat$mah$1@hercules.btinternet.com,
Costas Vlachos typed:

I once had an IBM Deskstar 45 GB hard drive that started giving me
problems with bad sectors after about 2 years of use. ScanDisk and
Norton Utilities both could find them and mark them as bad.

I think that indicates that the pool of spare sectors was all used up,
so it had to start marking them at the file system level.

--
-Reply in group, but if emailing add 2 more zeros-
-and remove the obvious-

Mjolinor · Jan 12, 2004

"Tom Del Rosso" <tdnews01@att.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:f5yMb.21931$6y6.535990@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

In news:gCkMb.26925$sv6.78606@attbi_s52,
Linear typed:
You can get a little more life out of the old drive if you do a
scandisk in thorough mode (with autofix enabled) and let it map the
bad sectors so you don't try to write to them. If you don't you are
inviting crashes everytime the computer tries to use one of the bad
sectors.

But, for the past 10 years, HDs remap sectors internally from a pool of
spare sectors. The thorough test of Scandisk and Norton is useless.
For Scandisk it was always useless, because, as I have seen, when it
tested sectors I knew to be bad it simply took longer, because it was
retrying them and then reporting them as good.

Another one of the wonders of modern science from Microsoft, make scandisk
try 5 times to read and make copy try 3.

Chris Carlen · Jan 12, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?

I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)

...Jim Thompson

Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.

I just don't get why people put up with Windows. I guess when you don't
know any better...

--
____________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser/Optical Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
crcarle@sandia.gov

Richard Crowley · Jan 12, 2004

"Mjolinor" wrote ...

Another one of the wonders of modern science from
Microsoft, make scandisk try 5 times to read and make
copy try 3.

I suspect they got some heat from hard drive makers to
cause their products to appear more reliable.

Ross Mac · Jan 12, 2004

"j.b. miller" <invalidjbmiller@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:lqgMb.502$Wx2.389@read1.cgocable.net...

I've got both C and D in removable trays,setup as masters. Every once in a
while I use XXCOPY to 'clone C to D.
Having the drives in trays means I can pullout D ,put into C's place and
be
'up and running' in 5 minutes or less.
This system has been in use for about 6 years.

fwiw
jay

I have my system setup this way too...works great and in the event of a

total loss, you are back up and running in moments....I use Norton Ghost
2003 and it copies at about 1.8 gig a minute......Ross

Costas Vlachos · Jan 12, 2004

"Tom Del Rosso" <tdnews01@att.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:f5yMb.21931$6y6.535990@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

In news:gCkMb.26925$sv6.78606@attbi_s52,
Linear typed:
You can get a little more life out of the old drive if you do a
scandisk in thorough mode (with autofix enabled) and let it map the
bad sectors so you don't try to write to them. If you don't you are
inviting crashes everytime the computer tries to use one of the bad
sectors.

But, for the past 10 years, HDs remap sectors internally from a pool of
spare sectors. The thorough test of Scandisk and Norton is useless.
For Scandisk it was always useless, because, as I have seen, when it
tested sectors I knew to be bad it simply took longer, because it was
retrying them and then reporting them as good.

I once had an IBM Deskstar 45 GB hard drive that started giving me problems
with bad sectors after about 2 years of use. ScanDisk and Norton Utilities
both could find them and mark them as bad. Googling about it I found that
the problem was a known issue with this particular drive. In the 15 years
I've been using hard drives, this was the only one that's given me bad
sectors. It's still in use today in my work PC where everything is stored
and backed up on a daily basis over the network, so I don't really care if
it ever dies.

If you get bad sectors, funny noises, or the drive occasionally refuses to
spin-up, I'd say backup your stuff ASAP and avoid using the drive for any
critical data. Drives are cheap these days, your data isn't!

Costas

Richard Crowley · Jan 12, 2004

"Chris Carlen" wrote ...

Software? Why do you Windows guys always need
to *get* some software to do this stuff that should be
easy to do with one or two simple built in operating
system commands.

xcopy

I just don't get why people put up with Windows.
I guess when you don't know any better...

Perhaps for the same perverse reasons why so many
more users don't get why people put up with such
narrow, arcane and fiddly things as Linux, et. al.

Costas Vlachos · Jan 12, 2004

"Tom Del Rosso" <tdnews01@att.net.invalid> wrote in message
news

DyMb.22095$6y6.537985@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

In news:btucat$mah$1@hercules.btinternet.com,
Costas Vlachos typed:

I once had an IBM Deskstar 45 GB hard drive that started giving me
problems with bad sectors after about 2 years of use. ScanDisk and
Norton Utilities both could find them and mark them as bad.

I think that indicates that the pool of spare sectors was all used up,
so it had to start marking them at the file system level.

Every time I do a CHKDSK on it, it says: "XXXXX bytes in Bad Sectors". So it
knows about them and doesn't allow the heads to read/write on them. Some
defragmentation software also shows little red squares in the drive map, to
indicate the bad sectors. The HD is still going strong (been two years since
the problem came up). No more bad sectors, but I wouldn't trust it with any
critical data.

Thinking about it, with the current sizes of hard drives, it's kinda scary!
I mean, it's not easy to back up because of the large size, and if the thing
dies you lose a ton of stuff (again because of the large size)...

Costas

Jim Thompson · Jan 12, 2004

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:40:08 +0000 (UTC), "Paul Camilleri"
<paul.camilleri@btconnect.com> wrote:

The problem with Jim's hard drive has been stated in very general terms. No
mention of actual data loss has been made yet. The potential as we all know
too well is clear.

[snip]

I just want to write a new (and larger) hard drive before this one
goes kaput... mainly to avoid all the software installation hassles (I
have everything backed up, but installs are lengthy
pains-in-the-butt).

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Paul Camilleri · Jan 12, 2004

The problem with Jim's hard drive has been stated in very general terms. No
mention of actual data loss has been made yet. The potential as we all know
too well is clear.

From the standpoint of no data loss, then it follows that standard OS
archiving tools may be used without regard to the OS and any further expense
or ramblings of the benefits of one OS over another.

If data loss has occured and lost data is not required, again standard tools
from the OS may by used.

But if data loss has occured and an attempt to recover the lost data must be
made, then we are in another ball game entirely and one which is split
clearly in two.

Without regard to any particular OS, the two groups of data recover software
I have seen are those which simply rely on the computer BIOS and those which
communicate directly with the drive controller built into the hard drive.

Data recovery software which relies soley on the BIOS is inherently limited
to the capabilities of the BIOS and IMHO should be avoided.

Data recovery software which communicates directly with the drive controller
will have specific knowledge of that particular controller, thus allowing
activities well beyond what any BIOS will be capable of. These new abilities
include things like dynamic sector to sector read/write timimg attributes,
sector order read/writes, dynamic cluster configuration and much, much more.
This is why serious data recovery centres avoid the BIOS entirely when using
data recovery software. Of course, data recovery hardware has no need for it
in any case and is purely an extension of what I have already mentioned.

Be aware that all Windows software will be unaware of anything beyond the
BIOS at most and will rely entirely on vendor provided drivers for the
specifics - if any. On the Linux front I am not sure because I do not know
it as well but I would welcome specific information myself in this area and
for this platform. My guess is it would broadly have the same approach
implemented directly into the kernel or loadable modules.

It is indeed futile to re-read presumably faulty sectors in the majority of
cases. However, when the hard drive controller itself is under program
control, then simply re-reading a faulty sector is just the tip of a
mountain of different approaches.

In any case, the subject has meandered somewhat, but at least, in the worst
case I guess you really know your options now right? There are questions
specific to the problem which are as yet unknown (unless I've missed
something) like what OS are we even talking about, the file system in
question, type of data (text/binary), are bakups available, has the need for
data recovery even in the event of actual data loss been assessed etc etc.

Sorry about the long post.

Paul Camilleri

"Chris Carlen" <crcarle@BOGUS.sandia.gov> wrote in message
news:btueim11ue5@enews2.newsguy.com...

Jim Thompson wrote:
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?

I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)

...Jim Thompson

Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.

I just don't get why people put up with Windows. I guess when you don't
know any better...

--
____________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser/Optical Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
crcarle@sandia.gov

Paul Wylie · Jan 12, 2004

In alt.primenet.recovery Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

I just want to write a new (and larger) hard drive before this one
goes kaput... mainly to avoid all the software installation hassles (I
have everything backed up, but installs are lengthy
pains-in-the-butt).

Well, if you're running WinNT, Win2k or WinXP, and you're looking to spend
as little $$ as possible, and you don't mind having to have the exact same
size partitions on the new drive as the old drive (or you already have
Partition Magic), then you could simply install the new drive, mirror the
original drive to it, wait for Windows to synch the partitions, pull the
old drive and run from the new drive (breaking the mirror, of course).

If you need to expand partitions, Partition Magic could allow you to do so
after the drive replacement is complete.

Obviously, this option's really only realistic if you're in an all-Windows
environment and you already own PM.

--Paul
** Note "removemunged" in email address and remove to reply. **

Keith R. Williams · Jan 12, 2004

In article <btuncd$bsr$1@reader2.panix.com>,
paul@teamwylie.removemunged.org says...

In alt.primenet.recovery Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
I just want to write a new (and larger) hard drive before this one
goes kaput... mainly to avoid all the software installation hassles (I
have everything backed up, but installs are lengthy
pains-in-the-butt).

Well, if you're running WinNT, Win2k or WinXP, and you're looking to spend
as little $$ as possible, and you don't mind having to have the exact same
size partitions on the new drive as the old drive (or you already have
Partition Magic), then you could simply install the new drive, mirror the
original drive to it, wait for Windows to synch the partitions, pull the
old drive and run from the new drive (breaking the mirror, of course).

If you need to expand partitions, Partition Magic could allow you to do so
after the drive replacement is complete.

Partition Magic will copy the partitions and resize at theh same time.

--
Keith

Harry Conover · Jan 12, 2004

Chris Carlen <crcarle@BOGUS.sandia.gov> wrote in message news:<btueim11ue5@enews2.newsguy.com>...

Jim Thompson wrote:
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?

I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)

...Jim Thompson

Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.

Why? Because neither the Windows OS, nor Unix, Linux, or any other
current OS which I am aware since DG's RDOS (1978) provides a utility
or a command capable of true bit-for-bit, segment-by-segment disk
clonings.

Some commercial, freeware, and assembly language coded homemade
programs can do this, but if you're aware of a contemporary,
conventional OS that provides this capability, please let us know what
it is. The last true surface-to-surface disk cloning routine that I
remember was in a commercial OS package was the DISKCOPY command
present in Data General's RDOS back around 1978. DEC provided similiar
disk cloning support for their PDP and VAX systems, but it was alway
part of their utility support library or DECUS supported, and IIRC not
an integral component of VMS or RT11 itself.

Some Windows gurus may be able to better educate me on this subject
(please do), but the closest thing to disk cloning that windows (or
DOS) are capable is the time honored XCOPY32 /H/I/C/K/E/R/Y command,
which is normally only available by shelling of Windows to a DOS
environment, but since Windows remains active, is not capable of
performing a clone of the Windows system disk beause it cannot open
some of the currently opened Windows files. (I've always found it
strange that the only way to access this command (with the indicated
switch settings) is by shelling out to DOS...since a stand-alone
booted DOS doesn't recognize many of the required switches.) Possibly
still another reason why separate, stand-alone programs are desired
for cloning a system disk.

Then too, long, unpaid for posts like this are a clear indication that
I have too much free time on my hands, like many of us here.

I just don't get why people put up with Windows. I guess when you don't
know any better...

Perhaps it simply something similar to "Meat, it's what's for
dinner!", a Windows platform is the common denominator for
entertainment, business, professional software applications. Then too,
I am a C programmer and have used Unix and Unix-like OS since my first
exposure to both C and Unix in 1980 (at Genrad). Until very recently,
almost all of my C and assembly language software was developed in a
Unix OS environment, but during the past 5 years, most of this work
has gravitated to a Windows based OS where most of the today's action
is. There is much good that comes out of using a common and popular
API in one's programming!

Harry C.

Jan Panteltje · Jan 12, 2004

On a sunny day (12 Jan 2004 11:12:01 -0800) it happened hhc314@yahoo.com
(Harry Conover) wrote in <7ce4e226.0401121112.791ba784@posting.google.com>:

Chris Carlen <crcarle@BOGUS.sandia.gov> wrote in message news:<btueim11ue5@enews2.newsguy.com>...
Jim Thompson wrote:
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?

I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)

...Jim Thompson

Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.

Why? Because neither the Windows OS, nor Unix, Linux, or any other
current OS which I am aware since DG's RDOS (1978) provides a utility
or a command capable of true bit-for-bit, segment-by-segment disk
clonings.
Linux: cat /dev/hda > /dev/hdb for example will.

The rest of your post, regarding you do not know this, makes little sense.
How to copy floppy:
cat /dev/fd0 > floppy_image
change flop
cat floppy_image > /dev/fd0
Same for Memory stick (scsi drives etc)
cat /dev/sda > whatever
cat whatever > /dev/something_else
Windows has rawwrite (not sure that works on a hd).
Note I wrote /dev/hda, NOT /dev/hda1
Me

Paul Wylie · Jan 13, 2004

In alt.primenet.recovery Keith R. Williams <krw@attglobal.net> wrote:

Partition Magic will copy the partitions and resize at theh same time.

That's newer to PM than any version I've got lying around. It's a nice
feature addition, but it kind of eliminates the need for PQ's DriveCopy or
DriveImage programs for most home users.

BTW: Has anybody had any experience dealing with tech support or sales
since Symantec finished assimilating PQ back in December?

--Paul
** Note "removemunged" in email address and remove to reply. **

Russell Shaw · Jan 13, 2004

Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (12 Jan 2004 11:12:01 -0800) it happened hhc314@yahoo.com
(Harry Conover) wrote in <7ce4e226.0401121112.791ba784@posting.google.com>:

Chris Carlen <crcarle@BOGUS.sandia.gov> wrote in message news:<btueim11ue5@enews2.newsguy.com>...

Jim Thompson wrote:

I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?

I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.

Why? Because neither the Windows OS, nor Unix, Linux, or any other
current OS which I am aware since DG's RDOS (1978) provides a utility
or a command capable of true bit-for-bit, segment-by-segment disk
clonings.

Linux: cat /dev/hda > /dev/hdb for example will.
The rest of your post, regarding you do not know this, makes little sense.
How to copy floppy:
cat /dev/fd0 > floppy_image
change flop
cat floppy_image > /dev/fd0
Same for Memory stick (scsi drives etc)
cat /dev/sda > whatever
cat whatever > /dev/something_else
Windows has rawwrite (not sure that works on a hd).
Note I wrote /dev/hda, NOT /dev/hda1
Me

Global copies are more useful than cloning because then
the second disk doesn't need to be identical. You can use
CD, nfs, or any other media. In linux, just cp -a the various
top level directories you need, and run lilo on the new hard
disk to make it bootable.

Jan 13, 2004

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:47:40 +0000 (UTC), Paul Wylie
<paul@teamwylie.removemunged.org> wrote:

In alt.primenet.recovery Keith R. Williams <krw@attglobal.net> wrote:
Partition Magic will copy the partitions and resize at theh same time.

That's newer to PM than any version I've got lying around. It's a nice
feature addition, but it kind of eliminates the need for PQ's DriveCopy or
DriveImage programs for most home users.

BTW: Has anybody had any experience dealing with tech support or sales
since Symantec finished assimilating PQ back in December?

--Paul
** Note "removemunged" in email address and remove to reply. **

Symantec and "Tech Support" in the same sentance???
You've GOTTA be joking!!
Paid tech support could not solve the problem, and still insisted on
being paid. I let the credit card company fight it out.

Joel Kolstad · Jan 13, 2004

Russell Shaw <rjshaw@iprimus.com.au> wrote:

Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software
to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.

Perhaps it should be, but it isn't always. On the other hand, things that
shold be trivial in any OS -- like getting all applications to add
themselves to a standardized 'start' menu regardless of which window manager
is in use, or having all applications start with a user's (or Bill Gate's!)
global choice for a command like 'Copy' to be Ctrl+C rather than starting
with different defaults (Alt+C, Ctrl+C, etc.) -- isn't in Linux (...but it
certainly is in Windows).

But a more serious question now that we're done with our pissing match...
can Linux-sans-3rd-part-tools deal with:

1) Copying the partition that contains the operating system itself -- in its
entirety -- to another drive? This is what trips up Windows -- various
system files such as the registry are being held open while the OS is
running, hence then can't be copied with a trivial 'copy' command.
2) Copying the partition to a differently sized one (or, equivalently,
resizing partitions)? This is also the usual scenario a user finds
themselves in -- they buy a newer, bigger hard drive (because the old one is
full!) and want to copy everything but simply have the excess space left
over to keep expanding into. Windows won't resize partitions without data
loss, but many 3rd party tools will perform the data copy and partition
resize trick all in one fell swoop.

Thanks,
---Joel Kolstad

Keith R. Williams · Jan 13, 2004

In article <bts12t$f81$1@reader2.panix.com>,
am_dew@REMOVepanixThis.com says...

PowerQuest Drive Image is an excellent choice.

Yucky poo! PQDI is a horrible package and too limited.
PowerQuest's (same company : the 'PQ" part") Partion Magic is far
more flexible and works much better.

Forget PQDI, or "DriveCopy". They're limited function tools
intended only to enhance PQ's revenue.

--
Keith

OT! OT! Hard Drive Cloning

Tom Del Rosso

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Costas Vlachos

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Jim Thompson

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