OT: National Popular Vote Interstate Compact

[Rick C]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 12:41:13 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 2:40:54 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 11:47:08 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:


A lot of those 'Private Doctors' are denied hospital privileges because of too many malpractice claims against them. A lot of hospitals have trouble hiring in the public sector, as well. Since you never served, it's really none of your business.

Actually it is my business. I'm paying for it. In this country you get the same rights to vote as everyone else and have no more say in healthcare decisions than anyone else. That's how our government works. Equality regardless of what you think of other people. That's why we have protections built in for minorities no matter what sort of minority they are.

Actually, you aren't paying for it. The Veterans prepaid it, while on Active duty. This was done in that we received less pay then the same job paid a Civilian in the same job. Not only that, by signing on the line, we offered up to, and including our lives. If Active duty were paid the same as Civilians, then you would be paying it.

Ok, so we will take that money that isn't being paid to the Vets during their service, put it in a fund and that will be the only money to be spent on their care. That would seem to be an equitable approach by your reasoning..

My point is that I do have a say since they were employed by the US government and this is one of the benefits. Since the cost comes from taxes, all tax payers have a say in the matter. You can talk about "lower pay", but this is actually a benefit like any other and part of the package. The Vets didn't "pay" for it, they took the job knowing this was a benefit. So now we are on the hook to pay for this benefit, but not without some input into how it is provided.

What I don't get is why you are wedded to the idea of duplicating the healthcare system rather than just using the excellent system we have. The only real problem with the US healthcare system (other than the arrogance of the medical hierarchy) is paying for it. Once that is handled by the VA, why do you care if you are treated by government personnel in government facilities or civilian medical personnel in civilian facilities?

No one is trying to cram anything down your throat. I'm trying to get you to explain your views. So far that hasn't actually happened.

--

Rick C.

----- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 3:00:58 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2020-02-22, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 2:40:54 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 11:47:08 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:


A lot of those 'Private Doctors' are denied hospital privileges because of too many malpractice claims against them. A lot of hospitals have trouble hiring in the public sector, as well. Since you never served, it's really none of your business.

Actually it is my business. I'm paying for it. In this country you get the same rights to vote as everyone else and have no more say in healthcare decisions than anyone else. That's how our government works. Equality regardless of what you think of other people. That's why we have protections built in for minorities no matter what sort of minority they are.

Actually, you aren't paying for it. The Veterans prepaid it, while on Active duty. This was done in that we received less pay then the same job paid a Civilian in the same job. Not only that, by signing on the line, we offered up to, and including our lives. If Active duty were paid the same as Civilians, then you would be paying it.

That's a fine sentiment, but it's not in fact where the money comes from.
There is certainly a debt owed to the veterans, but it is being repaid from taxes.

No, it would have been paid as higher wages while on Active, from taxes at that time.

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 3:03:20 PM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 2:49:54 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

Yes, either way it is from taxes and so tax payers have some say in the matter.

Jeez,,, dog with a bone!


OK, tell the IRS that you won't pay your share of the taxes for DOD and VA. Maybe Big Bubba won't kill you in prison.

You literally have no idea of this is a non-sequitur, do you?

--

Rick C.

---++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 2:59:27 PM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 1:00:49 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 1:13:37 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 5:38:28 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 3:26:41 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 11:37:17 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

There are over 100 doctors withing 5 miles of my address in Maryland and around 1000 doctors within some 20-25 miles. ... The VA handles the special needs of Vets that other facilities might not do as well. But they don't need to duplicate the 99% of medical needs the rest of healthcare is perfectly capable of providing.

The VA has its own health maintenance organization, and EVERY HMO
'doesn't need to duplicate' a national health establishment. But, that's not what
it effectively does; rather, it becomes a part of the nation's health institutions.

HMOs are regional and private, for profit organizations. They LIMIT customer's choices in order to provide healthcare at lower costs. Kaiser-Permanente is a common HMO, but they don't serve every area. Why? Because it is too expensive to duplicate healthcare services over the whole country. That's my point.

Kaiser-Permanente makes it work by having adequate facilities in densely populated areas where they recruit lots of customers. In the rest of the country they have no facilities.

The VA appears to be using a model where they provide limited access over much of the country requiring their customers to van-pool to their appointments.


It is not required, it is a courtesy service for those who can't drive. Get your lies straight. The vast amount of appointments are at local CBOCs.

From the VA Website:

The Veterans Health Administration (VHA) is the largest integrated health care system in the United States, providing care at 1,255 health care facilities, including 170 VA Medical Centers and 1,074 outpatient sites of care of varying complexity (VHA outpatient clinics) to over 9 million Veterans enrolled in the VA ...

https://www.va.gov/

So, by your logic they should close down all other hospitals and clinics.

Let me explain. The VA is the largest single healthcare provider because the provide care across the entire country. That does not mean they are larger than the aggregate of the civilian medical network which is comprised of many organizations.

That isn't a feature, it is a bug. You pay local taxes the go to your local hospital to cover their cost for welfare and indigent patients care. People who didn't do anything for our country.

Do you have a point??? You feel Vets should not use civilian hospitals so they dont't have to mix with the hoi polloi?

Try to listen to what I am saying. The civilian sector provides care to the entire country of 300,000,000+ people. The VA takes care of a small fraction of that number. In the process of doing that they essentially duplicate the existing civilian network and provide less access to care.

So, the 6.7% of that 300 million don't have any say in their choice of care. The VA treated over 1.2 million patients, last year. That is 20,100,000 Veterans. Veterans who offered up their lives to defend idiots like you.. Volunteer at a VA hospital. See how many have list arms or legs. See how many are in wheelchairs because their legs no longer work.

Who doesn't have a say in their care? Anyone can choose a different physician.


> The VA has my medical history. I can use any VA facility, without worrying that a local doctor tries to get the information from a HMO. I have been in several HMOs when I was able to wok, They were all worse than the VA. You could only change doctors once a year. I was sick, and my assigned doctor's computer network was down for over two weeks. The HMO didn't care that they weren't setting any appointments. That doctor was about three miles from my home. I used all of my sick days, and lost a week's pay and I was still sick.

You aren't happy with the choices you made. Sorry for that. That's no reason for me to subsidize your care in an overly expensive system. You want the rest of the country to pay for your medical care to suit you while the rest of us have to "make do" with civilian care. Do you not see the BS in that?

Clearly not a model based on financial factors. Terrell says in some cases they will pay for out of network care which may end up being rather expensive compared to just providing Medicare or a more standard insurance scheme since they may have to pay full price if there is no price agreement. Obviously I don't know all the details, but I can't see how providing general medical care through a special network of providers is of advantage to Vets unless they have special needs from injuries.


Clearly, you are lying.

I'm asking you to explain what you are talking about and you say I am lying. Facts are facts. One healthcare system is better than two. With all the bad press the VA has had over the decades continuing today, it would seem they have more work to do simply to try to match the civilian network's level of care.


In this case, the customer, the Vets, aren't paying, so they won't worry so much about the costs. Most of us pay at least some portion of our insurance premium and so want to have quality care that is cost effective. We also wish for Vets to have the same sort of medical care. Don't we all deserve equal protection and medical care? Are some more equal than others.


You're right We don't pay, because we have already paid for it while on Active Duty. Not that a Snowflake like you has any clue about the size of the VA system


I was required to apply for Social Security at 62, and enrolled automatically into Medicare and Medicaid. Yet another lie from rick. It is difficult to find a good doctor who will accept them, in this area because ere are so many retirees.

You are the one who thinks he is more than equal.

Ok, if you are going to rant I guess the conversation is over.

Why were you required to apply for SS at age 62? I'm 66 and still not collecting.


You aren't a Veteran. The VA requires it. It allows some patients to try to find civilian medical care. It also saves the government money because they will pay out less Social Security to us.

Sounds like the VA is a raw deal. Why are you so in love with it? If you didn't take SS at 62 (I didn't realize you even had that choice) what does the VA do? Do they deny you care forever?

--

Rick C.

---+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 2:49:54 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

Yes, either way it is from taxes and so tax payers have some say in the matter.

Jeez,,, dog with a bone!

OK, tell the IRS that you won't pay your share of the taxes for DOD and VA. Maybe Big Bubba won't kill you in prison.

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 1:00:49 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 1:13:37 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 5:38:28 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 3:26:41 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 11:37:17 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

There are over 100 doctors withing 5 miles of my address in Maryland and around 1000 doctors within some 20-25 miles. ... The VA handles the special needs of Vets that other facilities might not do as well. But they don't need to duplicate the 99% of medical needs the rest of healthcare is perfectly capable of providing.

The VA has its own health maintenance organization, and EVERY HMO
'doesn't need to duplicate' a national health establishment. But, that's not what
it effectively does; rather, it becomes a part of the nation's health institutions.

HMOs are regional and private, for profit organizations. They LIMIT customer's choices in order to provide healthcare at lower costs. Kaiser-Permanente is a common HMO, but they don't serve every area. Why? Because it is too expensive to duplicate healthcare services over the whole country.. That's my point.

Kaiser-Permanente makes it work by having adequate facilities in densely populated areas where they recruit lots of customers. In the rest of the country they have no facilities.

The VA appears to be using a model where they provide limited access over much of the country requiring their customers to van-pool to their appointments.


It is not required, it is a courtesy service for those who can't drive. Get your lies straight. The vast amount of appointments are at local CBOCs.

From the VA Website:

The Veterans Health Administration (VHA) is the largest integrated health care system in the United States, providing care at 1,255 health care facilities, including 170 VA Medical Centers and 1,074 outpatient sites of care of varying complexity (VHA outpatient clinics) to over 9 million Veterans enrolled in the VA ...

https://www.va.gov/

So, by your logic they should close down all other hospitals and clinics.

Let me explain. The VA is the largest single healthcare provider because the provide care across the entire country. That does not mean they are larger than the aggregate of the civilian medical network which is comprised of many organizations.

That isn't a feature, it is a bug. You pay local taxes the go to your local hospital to cover their cost for welfare and indigent patients care. People who didn't do anything for our country.

> Try to listen to what I am saying. The civilian sector provides care to the entire country of 300,000,000+ people. The VA takes care of a small fraction of that number. In the process of doing that they essentially duplicate the existing civilian network and provide less access to care.

So, the 6.7% of that 300 million don't have any say in their choice of care. The VA treated over 1.2 million patients, last year. That is 20,100,000 Veterans. Veterans who offered up their lives to defend idiots like you. Volunteer at a VA hospital. See how many have list arms or legs. See how many are in wheelchairs because their legs no longer work.


The VA has my medical history. I can use any VA facility, without worrying that a local doctor tries to get the information from a HMO. I have been in several HMOs when I was able to wok, They were all worse than the VA. You could only change doctors once a year. I was sick, and my assigned doctor's computer network was down for over two weeks. The HMO didn't care that they weren't setting any appointments. That doctor was about three miles from my home. I used all of my sick days, and lost a week's pay and I was still sick.

Clearly not a model based on financial factors. Terrell says in some cases they will pay for out of network care which may end up being rather expensive compared to just providing Medicare or a more standard insurance scheme since they may have to pay full price if there is no price agreement. Obviously I don't know all the details, but I can't see how providing general medical care through a special network of providers is of advantage to Vets unless they have special needs from injuries.


Clearly, you are lying.

I'm asking you to explain what you are talking about and you say I am lying. Facts are facts. One healthcare system is better than two. With all the bad press the VA has had over the decades continuing today, it would seem they have more work to do simply to try to match the civilian network's level of care.


In this case, the customer, the Vets, aren't paying, so they won't worry so much about the costs. Most of us pay at least some portion of our insurance premium and so want to have quality care that is cost effective. We also wish for Vets to have the same sort of medical care. Don't we all deserve equal protection and medical care? Are some more equal than others..


You're right We don't pay, because we have already paid for it while on Active Duty. Not that a Snowflake like you has any clue about the size of the VA system


I was required to apply for Social Security at 62, and enrolled automatically into Medicare and Medicaid. Yet another lie from rick. It is difficult to find a good doctor who will accept them, in this area because ere are so many retirees.

You are the one who thinks he is more than equal.

Ok, if you are going to rant I guess the conversation is over.

Why were you required to apply for SS at age 62? I'm 66 and still not collecting.

You aren't a Veteran. The VA requires it. It allows some patients to try to find civilian medical care. It also saves the government money because they will pay out less Social Security to us.


> Yes, there are doctors who don't accept Medicare. With the coming changes that won't continue much longer. It will ultimately be that they either take Medicare or find a new job like in many advanced countries like the UK..

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 2:30:52 PM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 3:00:58 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-02-22, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 2:40:54 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 11:47:08 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:


A lot of those 'Private Doctors' are denied hospital privileges because of too many malpractice claims against them. A lot of hospitals have trouble hiring in the public sector, as well. Since you never served, it's really none of your business.

Actually it is my business. I'm paying for it. In this country you get the same rights to vote as everyone else and have no more say in healthcare decisions than anyone else. That's how our government works. Equality regardless of what you think of other people. That's why we have protections built in for minorities no matter what sort of minority they are.

Actually, you aren't paying for it. The Veterans prepaid it, while on Active duty. This was done in that we received less pay then the same job paid a Civilian in the same job. Not only that, by signing on the line, we offered up to, and including our lives. If Active duty were paid the same as Civilians, then you would be paying it.

That's a fine sentiment, but it's not in fact where the money comes from.
There is certainly a debt owed to the veterans, but it is being repaid from taxes.


No, it would have been paid as higher wages while on Active, from taxes at that time.

Yes, either way it is from taxes and so tax payers have some say in the matter.

Jeez,,, dog with a bone!

--

Rick C.

----+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
----+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 3:58:42 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 12:25:53 PM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

You aren't happy... That's no reason for me to subsidize your care in an overly expensive system.

Here, again, you act as though there is a less expensive alternative, and there has been none
mentioned. On a patient-by-patient basis, if medical costs and services rendered are
no different, who cares what the 'system' details are? Reorganization
does not improve care, nor eliminate administration or other costs.

A reorganization is like shuffling the cards. Takes time, inserts entropy. No cost or effciency improvement.

What MIGHT improve costs, is the dreaded single-payer system (gets rid of a lot of
negotiation and red tape).

There is no reason to believe it is just as cheap to run a second healthcare system as it does to run a single system. On top of that the VA healthcare system is much more sparsely distributed creating more transportation costs.

The two very different sets of guidance for the civilian and VA medical systems is pure redundancy. Each has to have top level management directing policy and planning. Each state directs medical facilities to suit the needs of their citizens. The VA is controlled by Washington. Closer to the bottom of the pyramids is the duplication of facilities. The infrastructure of a medical system is no small part of the cost. When you have two operating in parallel they each have greater losses from mismatch of demand and supply.

While Terrell is happy with that because the VA will pay for him to use civilian facilities, when the VA facilities are less than fully utilized and the civilian facilities have reached their limit the converse is not true.

In many profit driven markets there is enough profit to support competition, in medicine we recognize the waste of duplication of resources. As a result we typically don't have multiple hospitals where one will suffice. The healthcare provider industry does not have duplication to avoid waste and inefficiency. Providing general healthcare to Vets through a "separate but equal" system is wasteful and it seems hard to argue it isn't given the large disparity of eligible patients for each class of provider.

Whatever. This is not worth continuing to discuss. Terrell won't actually listen to anything others say. You seem more reasonable, but I think we have both said all that can be said.

--

Rick C.

--+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[whit3rd]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 12:25:53 PM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

> You aren't happy... That's no reason for me to subsidize your care in an overly expensive system.

Here, again, you act as though there is a less expensive alternative, and there has been none
mentioned. On a patient-by-patient basis, if medical costs and services rendered are
no different, who cares what the 'system' details are? Reorganization
does not improve care, nor eliminate administration or other costs.

A reorganization is like shuffling the cards. Takes time, inserts entropy. No cost or effciency improvement.

What MIGHT improve costs, is the dreaded single-payer system (gets rid of a lot of
negotiation and red tape).

 

[mpm]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 4:33:03 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

In my view, this entire discussion is a high-class problem to have.

Were it not for our veterans, who knows what kind of country we would have, let alone its healthcare systems?

The US wastes a tremendous amount of money every day.

I frankly don't see the need to start trimming any of that on the backs of our vets. I'd rather we generate those savings and efficiencies elsewhere, and funnel some of those billions back into the VA system.

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 4:57:28 PM UTC-5, mpm wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 4:33:03 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

In my view, this entire discussion is a high-class problem to have.

Were it not for our veterans, who knows what kind of country we would have, let alone its healthcare systems?

The US wastes a tremendous amount of money every day.

I frankly don't see the need to start trimming any of that on the backs of our vets. I'd rather we generate those savings and efficiencies elsewhere, and funnel some of those billions back into the VA system.

Just to be clear, are you saying that the civilian healthcare system is not as good as the VA healthcare system? That is the only possible reason to not treat as many Vets as possible in the civilian system. It certainly has to be a lot more convenient to the Vets to not have to travel to VA facilities and it only makes sense from all other perspectives to use civilian facilities.

So are civilian hospitals not adequate? Do we have problems with the quality of care in non-VA facilities?

--

Rick C.

--+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 4:33:03 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 3:58:42 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 12:25:53 PM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

You aren't happy... That's no reason for me to subsidize your care in an overly expensive system.

Here, again, you act as though there is a less expensive alternative, and there has been none
mentioned. On a patient-by-patient basis, if medical costs and services rendered are
no different, who cares what the 'system' details are? Reorganization
does not improve care, nor eliminate administration or other costs.

A reorganization is like shuffling the cards. Takes time, inserts entropy. No cost or effciency improvement.

What MIGHT improve costs, is the dreaded single-payer system (gets rid of a lot of
negotiation and red tape).

There is no reason to believe it is just as cheap to run a second healthcare system as it does to run a single system. On top of that the VA healthcare system is much more sparsely distributed creating more transportation costs.

The two very different sets of guidance for the civilian and VA medical systems is pure redundancy. Each has to have top level management directing policy and planning. Each state directs medical facilities to suit the needs of their citizens. The VA is controlled by Washington. Closer to the bottom of the pyramids is the duplication of facilities. The infrastructure of a medical system is no small part of the cost. When you have two operating in parallel they each have greater losses from mismatch of demand and supply.

The state of Florida decides who and where a hospital can be built. That includes VA facilities. My clinic could be a small hospital, but they weren't allowed to have any patient rooms even though it has two operating rooms.

While Terrell is happy with that because the VA will pay for him to use civilian facilities, when the VA facilities are less than fully utilized and the civilian facilities have reached their limit the converse is not true.

Less than fully utilized? The number of Veterans needing VA care is increasing. The local CBOC has clinics in five parts of an old mall, and a fifth at a medical center on the other side of town. When I used it, it was just two. The Gainesville hospital completed a new patient tower a couple years ago, because the had clinics scattered all over town. The oldest patient rooms were remodeled, so they could close the external clinics. There are building a six level parking structure since they are landlocked by other hospitals and medical research facilities. The VA is a leader into research and treatment of the elderly. They share that information with other hospitals an doctors.

In many profit driven markets there is enough profit to support competition, in medicine we recognize the waste of duplication of resources. As a result we typically don't have multiple hospitals where one will suffice. The healthcare provider industry does not have duplication to avoid waste and inefficiency. Providing general healthcare to Vets through a "separate but equal" system is wasteful and it seems hard to argue it isn't given the large disparity of eligible patients for each class of provider.

Ocala Florida has 13 hospitals. One of the older ones added a new wing a few years ago. The top two floors are unfinished, and empty. That is underutilized facilities.


> Whatever. This is not worth continuing to discuss. Terrell won't actually listen to anything others say. You seem more reasonable, but I think we have both said all that can be said.

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 3:25:53 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 2:59:27 PM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 1:00:49 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 1:13:37 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 5:38:28 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 3:26:41 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 11:37:17 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

There are over 100 doctors withing 5 miles of my address in Maryland and around 1000 doctors within some 20-25 miles. ... The VA handles the special needs of Vets that other facilities might not do as well. But they don't need to duplicate the 99% of medical needs the rest of healthcare is perfectly capable of providing.

The VA has its own health maintenance organization, and EVERY HMO
'doesn't need to duplicate' a national health establishment. But, that's not what
it effectively does; rather, it becomes a part of the nation's health institutions.

HMOs are regional and private, for profit organizations. They LIMIT customer's choices in order to provide healthcare at lower costs. Kaiser-Permanente is a common HMO, but they don't serve every area. Why? Because it is too expensive to duplicate healthcare services over the whole country. That's my point.

Kaiser-Permanente makes it work by having adequate facilities in densely populated areas where they recruit lots of customers. In the rest of the country they have no facilities.

The VA appears to be using a model where they provide limited access over much of the country requiring their customers to van-pool to their appointments.


It is not required, it is a courtesy service for those who can't drive. Get your lies straight. The vast amount of appointments are at local CBOCs.

From the VA Website:

The Veterans Health Administration (VHA) is the largest integrated health care system in the United States, providing care at 1,255 health care facilities, including 170 VA Medical Centers and 1,074 outpatient sites of care of varying complexity (VHA outpatient clinics) to over 9 million Veterans enrolled in the VA ...

https://www.va.gov/

So, by your logic they should close down all other hospitals and clinics.

Let me explain. The VA is the largest single healthcare provider because the provide care across the entire country. That does not mean they are larger than the aggregate of the civilian medical network which is comprised of many organizations.

That isn't a feature, it is a bug. You pay local taxes the go to your local hospital to cover their cost for welfare and indigent patients care.. People who didn't do anything for our country.

Do you have a point??? You feel Vets should not use civilian hospitals so they don't have to mix with the hoi polloi?

All you do is try to pick fights. The last time I used a civilian hospital, I sat there in excriating pain for 12 hours. Finally they told me that they couldn't help me.u I never got to see a doctor, but I did get a bill for over $400.

Try to listen to what I am saying. The civilian sector provides care to the entire country of 300,000,000+ people. The VA takes care of a small fraction of that number. In the process of doing that they essentially duplicate the existing civilian network and provide less access to care.

So, the 6.7% of that 300 million don't have any say in their choice of care. The VA treated over 1.2 million patients, last year. That is 20,100,000 Veterans. Veterans who offered up their lives to defend idiots like you. Volunteer at a VA hospital. See how many have list arms or legs. See how many are in wheelchairs because their legs no longer work.

Who doesn't have a say in their care? Anyone can choose a different physician.


The VA has my medical history. I can use any VA facility, without worrying that a local doctor tries to get the information from a HMO. I have been in several HMOs when I was able to wok, They were all worse than the VA. You could only change doctors once a year. I was sick, and my assigned doctor's computer network was down for over two weeks. The HMO didn't care that they weren't setting any appointments. That doctor was about three miles from my home. I used all of my sick days, and lost a week's pay and I was still sick.

You aren't happy with the choices you made. Sorry for that. That's no reason for me to subsidize your care in an overly expensive system. You want the rest of the country to pay for your medical care to suit you while the rest of us have to "make do" with civilian care. Do you not see the BS in that?


Clearly not a model based on financial factors. Terrell says in some cases they will pay for out of network care which may end up being rather expensive compared to just providing Medicare or a more standard insurance scheme since they may have to pay full price if there is no price agreement. Obviously I don't know all the details, but I can't see how providing general medical care through a special network of providers is of advantage to Vets unless they have special needs from injuries.


Clearly, you are lying.

I'm asking you to explain what you are talking about and you say I am lying. Facts are facts. One healthcare system is better than two. With all the bad press the VA has had over the decades continuing today, it would seem they have more work to do simply to try to match the civilian network's level of care.


In this case, the customer, the Vets, aren't paying, so they won't worry so much about the costs. Most of us pay at least some portion of our insurance premium and so want to have quality care that is cost effective. We also wish for Vets to have the same sort of medical care. Don't we all deserve equal protection and medical care? Are some more equal than others.


You're right We don't pay, because we have already paid for it while on Active Duty. Not that a Snowflake like you has any clue about the size of the VA system


I was required to apply for Social Security at 62, and enrolled automatically into Medicare and Medicaid. Yet another lie from rick. It is difficult to find a good doctor who will accept them, in this area because ere are so many retirees.

You are the one who thinks he is more than equal.

Ok, if you are going to rant I guess the conversation is over.

Why were you required to apply for SS at age 62? I'm 66 and still not collecting.


You aren't a Veteran. The VA requires it. It allows some patients to try to find civilian medical care. It also saves the government money because they will pay out less Social Security to us.

Sounds like the VA is a raw deal. Why are you so in love with it? If you didn't take SS at 62 (I didn't realize you even had that choice) what does the VA do? Do they deny you care forever?

I use the VA because I can't afford any other care. Learn about the VA. I posted a link to their website.

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 5:59:38 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 4:57:28 PM UTC-5, mpm wrote:
On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 4:33:03 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

In my view, this entire discussion is a high-class problem to have.

Were it not for our veterans, who knows what kind of country we would have, let alone its healthcare systems?

The US wastes a tremendous amount of money every day.

I frankly don't see the need to start trimming any of that on the backs of our vets. I'd rather we generate those savings and efficiencies elsewhere, and funnel some of those billions back into the VA system.

Just to be clear, are you saying that the civilian healthcare system is not as good as the VA healthcare system? That is the only possible reason to not treat as many Vets as possible in the civilian system. It certainly has to be a lot more convenient to the Vets to not have to travel to VA facilities and it only makes sense from all other perspectives to use civilian facilities.

So are civilian hospitals not adequate? Do we have problems with the quality of care in non-VA facilities?

You have no idea of how many Veterans are severely disabled Veterans there are, who only receive $1146 a month to live on. If you shut down the VA, they would be dumped on the overloaded civilian system and their care would still be paid for by taxpayers. Likely at higher costs, since the VA hospitals are no frill.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, February 23, 2020 at 12:14:41 PM UTC+11, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 5:59:38 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 4:57:28 PM UTC-5, mpm wrote:
On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 4:33:03 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

In my view, this entire discussion is a high-class problem to have.

Were it not for our veterans, who knows what kind of country we would have, let alone its healthcare systems?

The US wastes a tremendous amount of money every day.

I frankly don't see the need to start trimming any of that on the backs of our vets. I'd rather we generate those savings and efficiencies elsewhere, and funnel some of those billions back into the VA system.

Just to be clear, are you saying that the civilian healthcare system is not as good as the VA healthcare system? That is the only possible reason to not treat as many Vets as possible in the civilian system. It certainly has to be a lot more convenient to the Vets to not have to travel to VA facilities and it only makes sense from all other perspectives to use civilian facilities.

So are civilian hospitals not adequate? Do we have problems with the quality of care in non-VA facilities?

You have no idea of how many Veterans are severely disabled Veterans there are, who only receive $1146 a month to live on. If you shut down the VA, they would be dumped on the overloaded civilian system and their care would still be paid for by taxpayers. Likely at higher costs, since the VA hospitals are no frill.

The US health care system costs half again more per head than the more generous universal health care systems in place like France, Germany and the Netherlands.

When some Canadian academic economists looked into where the extra money was being spent, it turned out be in administering he health insurances funds that paid for the health care, as opposed to the health care itself.

The "frill" in the regular US health system is all the accountants who make sure that people aren't being covered for procedures for which they aren't insured.

Veterans being treated in regular hospitals would still have the same comprehensive cover as they started off with, so the accountants wouldn't have much to do.

It's one of the incidental benefits of universal health care.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[whit3rd]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 2:59:38 PM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

Just to be clear, are you saying that the civilian healthcare system is not as good as the VA healthcare system? That is the only possible reason to not treat as many Vets as possible in the civilian system. It

So are civilian hospitals not adequate? Do we have problems with the quality of care in non-VA facilities?

It's NOT the 'only possible reason', and shutting down VA healthcare would shift a few
million people into 'the civilian healthcare system'. If that system IS efficient, it doesn't have enough beds.

It's just shuffling the cards, with no particular benefit in mind.

VA isn't a problem, it's a solution.

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 10:20:56 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 2:59:38 PM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

Just to be clear, are you saying that the civilian healthcare system is not as good as the VA healthcare system? That is the only possible reason to not treat as many Vets as possible in the civilian system. It

So are civilian hospitals not adequate? Do we have problems with the quality of care in non-VA facilities?

It's NOT the 'only possible reason', and shutting down VA healthcare would shift a few
million people into 'the civilian healthcare system'. If that system IS efficient, it doesn't have enough beds.

There is no reason to end it right away and there is no reason to toss the personnel and resources in the trash. Where appropriate they can be assimilated into the civilian systems. But you know that. Large organizations like the VA aren't changed overnight. No one in their right mind would think it should be.


> VA isn't a problem, it's a solution.

To a problem that doesn't exist.

--

Rick C.

--++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 8:14:41 PM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 5:59:38 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 4:57:28 PM UTC-5, mpm wrote:
On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 4:33:03 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

In my view, this entire discussion is a high-class problem to have.

Were it not for our veterans, who knows what kind of country we would have, let alone its healthcare systems?

The US wastes a tremendous amount of money every day.

I frankly don't see the need to start trimming any of that on the backs of our vets. I'd rather we generate those savings and efficiencies elsewhere, and funnel some of those billions back into the VA system.

Just to be clear, are you saying that the civilian healthcare system is not as good as the VA healthcare system? That is the only possible reason to not treat as many Vets as possible in the civilian system. It certainly has to be a lot more convenient to the Vets to not have to travel to VA facilities and it only makes sense from all other perspectives to use civilian facilities.

So are civilian hospitals not adequate? Do we have problems with the quality of care in non-VA facilities?

You have no idea of how many Veterans are severely disabled Veterans there are, who only receive $1146 a month to live on. If you shut down the VA, they would be dumped on the overloaded civilian system and their care would still be paid for by taxpayers. Likely at higher costs, since the VA hospitals are no frill.

It is very clear that this is a hugely emotional issue with you and you don't actually read what I write. So I won't keep bothering you with this issue.

--

Rick C.

--+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, February 23, 2020 at 3:44:37 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 10:20:56 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 2:59:38 PM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

Just to be clear, are you saying that the civilian healthcare system is not as good as the VA healthcare system? That is the only possible reason to not treat as many Vets as possible in the civilian system. It

So are civilian hospitals not adequate? Do we have problems with the quality of care in non-VA facilities?

It's NOT the 'only possible reason', and shutting down VA healthcare would shift a few
million people into 'the civilian healthcare system'. If that system IS efficient, it doesn't have enough beds.

There is no reason to end it right away and there is no reason to toss the personnel and resources in the trash. Where appropriate they can be assimilated into the civilian systems. But you know that. Large organizations like the VA aren't changed overnight. No one in their right mind would think it should be.


VA isn't a problem, it's a solution.

To a problem that doesn't exist.

The problem is - as always - elected officials needing to doing that looks good to voters. It is - or once was - a solution to that problem.

The good it may do - or may not - for veterans is entirely secondary.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 10:20:56 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 2:59:38 PM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

Just to be clear, are you saying that the civilian healthcare system is not as good as the VA healthcare system? That is the only possible reason to not treat as many Vets as possible in the civilian system. It

So are civilian hospitals not adequate? Do we have problems with the quality of care in non-VA facilities?

It's NOT the 'only possible reason', and shutting down VA healthcare would shift a few
million people into 'the civilian healthcare system'. If that system IS efficient, it doesn't have enough beds.

It's just shuffling the cards, with no particular benefit in mind.

VA isn't a problem, it's a solution.

The VA treated over 1.2 million Veterans last year. That's more than any other medical group in America. Rick and others are too damned lazy to look at what the VA actually does. It isn't just health care. It provides education benefits, pensions for he disabled Veterans and other services. Last year it cost 200 billion dollars. The VA was created after WW I. Veterans had to go to dozens of different government agencies that couldn't agree on what to do, so they often did nothing. That lead to the creation of 'The Bonus Army'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

Jobs were scarce. There was little to no medical help for those who returned home injured but alive. They were simply discharged with other caught up in the massive Military downsizing after the war. Eliminating the VA would bring back many of these problems, since many Veteran's records are missing, or misfiled in the archives. It is the uniformed and stupid who want to undo this system that works.