OT: More Weirdness from California...

[Cursitor Doom]

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2023-05-08/california-reparations-task-force-votes-approve-cost-recommendations-800-billion

I thought it was a principle under civil law that when someone has
been wronged and compensation deemed appropriate, the money is taken
from those who have become unjustly enriched and given to those who
have suffered as a result of that wrongdoing. But that\'s not what\'s
being contemplated here. The persons who committed the original wrongs
are all long dead, as are those who suffered at their hands. I don\'t
see how one can justly apportion blame among those alive today. They
have done no wrong and the people who it is proposed to compensate
have suffered no wrong either.
What are we supposed to do? Just shrug and resign ourselves to saying
California\'s different? Are they really going to go ahead with this?

 

[KenW]

On Tue, 09 May 2023 14:16:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2023-05-08/california-reparations-task-force-votes-approve-cost-recommendations-800-billion

I thought it was a principle under civil law that when someone has
been wronged and compensation deemed appropriate, the money is taken
from those who have become unjustly enriched and given to those who
have suffered as a result of that wrongdoing. But that\'s not what\'s
being contemplated here. The persons who committed the original wrongs
are all long dead, as are those who suffered at their hands. I don\'t
see how one can justly apportion blame among those alive today. They
have done no wrong and the people who it is proposed to compensate
have suffered no wrong either.
What are we supposed to do? Just shrug and resign ourselves to saying
California\'s different? Are they really going to go ahead with this?

Most people know California is an ultra Liberal state. Just one reason
people are leaving it.


KenW

 

[Peter W.]

Apply some logic:

a) Native Americas and children of slaves were not given opportunities for education, training, mortgages, nor many of the other means to accumulate wealth as were whites of any origin. It took Harry Truman to integrate the Military as one single example. The last \"Indian School\" was closed in 1969, as another.
b) Accordingly, the cumulative effect of wealth-gathering was denied to them as a race, as a class, as a group.
c) Today, as a race, class or group, they are still suffering from that denial with (generally) poorer education, fewer opportunities, reduced health, and much more.
d) So, there is a 500 year history of everything from direct oppression to complete indifference to overcome.

And, guess what? The entire \"white\" race continues to be enriched by this.

Neither of my parents spoke English as a first language. But they were both University educated, white, and ambitious. They left their children with excellent educations, no debt, and a strong sense of mutual obligation to the \'social contract\' that sustains all of us. We have given our children excellent educations, left them with no debt, and they are doing the same for theirs. BUT - we have, between the four families, five houses, all paid for, 9 degrees, solid incomes, assured retirements, and much more. Did I mention, no debt!

How much do you thing that applies to any random native American or child of slavery?

I do not agree with reparations in terms of cash payments. But, fer crissakes, the oppression, indifference and results of that oppression and indifference are acutely visible to this day. Something must and should be done - but short of a complete attitude transplant, in a world where 25% - 30 % of the American population adores the Orange Toad, this is unlikely.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[ohg...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 9:17:04 AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2023-05-08/california-reparations-task-force-votes-approve-cost-recommendations-800-billion

I thought it was a principle under civil law that when someone has
been wronged and compensation deemed appropriate, the money is taken
from those who have become unjustly enriched and given to those who
have suffered as a result of that wrongdoing. But that\'s not what\'s
being contemplated here. The persons who committed the original wrongs
are all long dead, as are those who suffered at their hands. I don\'t
see how one can justly apportion blame among those alive today. They
have done no wrong and the people who it is proposed to compensate
have suffered no wrong either.
What are we supposed to do? Just shrug and resign ourselves to saying
California\'s different? Are they really going to go ahead with this?

For someone to suggest reparations are needed to address a wrong in the past would mean that the descendants of the wronged would have been better off if their ancestors were never brought to and suffered in America. Any descendant who believes they are not better off in America today because their ancestors were forced to come here are those who should receive reparations.

My solution is this - anyone who believes they have also suffered because their ancestors were enslaved and would have been better off if their ancestors were never brought to America should be compensated with both money and repatriation to their ancestor\'s native land, and absent any documentation as to where they originated from, be allowed to move to any country that will have them.

The cash reparation could only be accepted with a required legal renunciation of their citizenship and the being permanently barred from ever reapplying for U.S. citizenship in the future.

 

[Bob F]

On 5/9/2023 11:45 AM, Peter W. wrote:

Apply some logic:

a) Native Americas and children of slaves were not given opportunities for education, training, mortgages, nor many of the other means to accumulate wealth as were whites of any origin. It took Harry Truman to integrate the Military as one single example. The last \"Indian School\" was closed in 1969, as another.
b) Accordingly, the cumulative effect of wealth-gathering was denied to them as a race, as a class, as a group.
c) Today, as a race, class or group, they are still suffering from that denial with (generally) poorer education, fewer opportunities, reduced health, and much more.
d) So, there is a 500 year history of everything from direct oppression to complete indifference to overcome.

And, guess what? The entire \"white\" race continues to be enriched by this.

Neither of my parents spoke English as a first language. But they were both University educated, white, and ambitious. They left their children with excellent educations, no debt, and a strong sense of mutual obligation to the \'social contract\' that sustains all of us. We have given our children excellent educations, left them with no debt, and they are doing the same for theirs. BUT - we have, between the four families, five houses, all paid for, 9 degrees, solid incomes, assured retirements, and much more. Did I mention, no debt!

How much do you thing that applies to any random native American or child of slavery?

I do not agree with reparations in terms of cash payments. But, fer crissakes, the oppression, indifference and results of that oppression and indifference are acutely visible to this day. Something must and should be done - but short of a complete attitude transplant, in a world where 25% - 30 % of the American population adores the Orange Toad, this is unlikely.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Very true, and well said.

 

[Bob F]

On 5/9/2023 12:32 PM, ohg...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 9:17:04 AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2023-05-08/california-reparations-task-force-votes-approve-cost-recommendations-800-billion

I thought it was a principle under civil law that when someone has
been wronged and compensation deemed appropriate, the money is taken
from those who have become unjustly enriched and given to those who
have suffered as a result of that wrongdoing. But that\'s not what\'s
being contemplated here. The persons who committed the original wrongs
are all long dead, as are those who suffered at their hands. I don\'t
see how one can justly apportion blame among those alive today. They
have done no wrong and the people who it is proposed to compensate
have suffered no wrong either.
What are we supposed to do? Just shrug and resign ourselves to saying
California\'s different? Are they really going to go ahead with this?

For someone to suggest reparations are needed to address a wrong in the past would mean that the descendants of the wronged would have been better off if their ancestors were never brought to and suffered in America. Any descendant who believes they are not better off in America today because their ancestors were forced to come here are those who should receive reparations.

My solution is this - anyone who believes they have also suffered because their ancestors were enslaved and would have been better off if their ancestors were never brought to America should be compensated with both money and repatriation to their ancestor\'s native land, and absent any documentation as to where they originated from, be allowed to move to any country that will have them.

The cash reparation could only be accepted with a required legal renunciation of their citizenship and the being permanently barred from ever reapplying for U.S. citizenship in the future.

Ignore reality, and what you said might make sense. Which is what you did.

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Tue, 9 May 2023 14:50:23 -0700, Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:

On 5/9/2023 12:32 PM, ohg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 9:17:04?AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2023-05-08/california-reparations-task-force-votes-approve-cost-recommendations-800-billion

I thought it was a principle under civil law that when someone has
been wronged and compensation deemed appropriate, the money is taken
from those who have become unjustly enriched and given to those who
have suffered as a result of that wrongdoing. But that\'s not what\'s
being contemplated here. The persons who committed the original wrongs
are all long dead, as are those who suffered at their hands. I don\'t
see how one can justly apportion blame among those alive today. They
have done no wrong and the people who it is proposed to compensate
have suffered no wrong either.
What are we supposed to do? Just shrug and resign ourselves to saying
California\'s different? Are they really going to go ahead with this?

For someone to suggest reparations are needed to address a wrong in the past would mean that the descendants of the wronged would have been better off if their ancestors were never brought to and suffered in America. Any descendant who believes they are not better off in America today because their ancestors were forced to come here are those who should receive reparations.

My solution is this - anyone who believes they have also suffered because their ancestors were enslaved and would have been better off if their ancestors were never brought to America should be compensated with both money and repatriation to their ancestor\'s native land, and absent any documentation as to where they originated from, be allowed to move to any country that will have them.

The cash reparation could only be accepted with a required legal renunciation of their citizenship and the being permanently barred from ever reapplying for U.S. citizenship in the future.


Ignore reality, and what you said might make sense. Which is what you did.

Why? Seems fair to me.

 

[Peter W.]

> Why? Seems fair to me.

Because it entirely ignores 500 years of history. Which displays massive ignorance on your part.

Every complex problem has a solution that is simple, clear and wrong.
H.L. Mencken

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[ohg...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 8:32:08 AM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:

Why? Seems fair to me.
Because it entirely ignores 500 years of history. Which displays massive ignorance on your part.

Every complex problem has a solution that is simple, clear and wrong.
H.L. Mencken
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

What about the thousands of years of history for every ethnic group? Shit happens - move on.

Ever hear of the \"no Irish wanted\"? My Italian grandfather had work menial jobs and then buy his house and later business cash because banks wouldn\'t load money to Italians.

I don\'t deserve any reparations for how my Italian ancestors were treated in this country even if it wasn\'t as egregious as the way blacks were treated before. If anyone *today* is suffering in America because of their race, then they would have been better off if their ancestors were never brought to America. Money *and* repatriation is the only way to right this wrong.

 

[Peter W.]

The issues with the Irish and the Italians were regional, and lasted, perhaps 75 years from end-to-end. And, the Irish and Italians intermarried with the incumbents (for lack of a better term) pretty freely. Neither the Irish, nor the Italians, nor the Poles, nor the Jews, nor the Lithuanians, were ever chattels (property).

Again, as long as one ignores 500 years of history, and as long as one ignores the fact that slaves, children of slaves and native Americans were denied the means of building wealth - education, land ownership, training, military opportunities, mortgages and much more - not for a few years, but for several centuries - your solution makes perfect sense.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Trevor Wilson]

On 10/05/2023 4:45 am, Peter W. wrote:

Apply some logic:

a) Native Americas and children of slaves were not given opportunities for education, training, mortgages, nor many of the other means to accumulate wealth as were whites of any origin. It took Harry Truman to integrate the Military as one single example. The last \"Indian School\" was closed in 1969, as another.
b) Accordingly, the cumulative effect of wealth-gathering was denied to them as a race, as a class, as a group.
c) Today, as a race, class or group, they are still suffering from that denial with (generally) poorer education, fewer opportunities, reduced health, and much more.
d) So, there is a 500 year history of everything from direct oppression to complete indifference to overcome.

And, guess what? The entire \"white\" race continues to be enriched by this.

Neither of my parents spoke English as a first language. But they were both University educated, white, and ambitious. They left their children with excellent educations, no debt, and a strong sense of mutual obligation to the \'social contract\' that sustains all of us. We have given our children excellent educations, left them with no debt, and they are doing the same for theirs. BUT - we have, between the four families, five houses, all paid for, 9 degrees, solid incomes, assured retirements, and much more. Did I mention, no debt!

How much do you thing that applies to any random native American or child of slavery?

I do not agree with reparations in terms of cash payments. But, fer crissakes, the oppression, indifference and results of that oppression and indifference are acutely visible to this day. Something must and should be done - but short of a complete attitude transplant, in a world where 25% - 30 % of the American population adores the Orange Toad, this is unlikely.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

**Well stated.


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

 

[Bob F]

On 5/16/2023 3:37 AM, Peter W. wrote:

The issues with the Irish and the Italians were regional, and lasted, perhaps 75 years from end-to-end. And, the Irish and Italians intermarried with the incumbents (for lack of a better term) pretty freely. Neither the Irish, nor the Italians, nor the Poles, nor the Jews, nor the Lithuanians, were ever chattels (property).

Again, as long as one ignores 500 years of history, and as long as one ignores the fact that slaves, children of slaves and native Americans were denied the means of building wealth - education, land ownership, training, military opportunities, mortgages and much more - not for a few years, but for several centuries - your solution makes perfect sense.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Well said!

 

[Trevor Wilson]

On 16/05/2023 8:37 pm, Peter W. wrote:

The issues with the Irish and the Italians were regional, and lasted, perhaps 75 years from end-to-end. And, the Irish and Italians intermarried with the incumbents (for lack of a better term) pretty freely. Neither the Irish, nor the Italians, nor the Poles, nor the Jews, nor the Lithuanians, were ever chattels (property).

Again, as long as one ignores 500 years of history, and as long as one ignores the fact that slaves, children of slaves and native Americans were denied the means of building wealth - education, land ownership, training, military opportunities, mortgages and much more - not for a few years, but for several centuries - your solution makes perfect sense.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

**Your words provide some hope that there is a spark of thinking
remaining in the US.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

 

[John Robertson]

On 2023/05/09 11:45 a.m., Peter W. wrote:

Apply some logic:

a) Native Americas and children of slaves were not given opportunities for education, training, mortgages, nor many of the other means to accumulate wealth as were whites of any origin. It took Harry Truman to integrate the Military as one single example. The last \"Indian School\" was closed in 1969, as another.
b) Accordingly, the cumulative effect of wealth-gathering was denied to them as a race, as a class, as a group.
c) Today, as a race, class or group, they are still suffering from that denial with (generally) poorer education, fewer opportunities, reduced health, and much more.
d) So, there is a 500 year history of everything from direct oppression to complete indifference to overcome.

And, guess what? The entire \"white\" race continues to be enriched by this.

Neither of my parents spoke English as a first language. But they were both University educated, white, and ambitious. They left their children with excellent educations, no debt, and a strong sense of mutual obligation to the \'social contract\' that sustains all of us. We have given our children excellent educations, left them with no debt, and they are doing the same for theirs. BUT - we have, between the four families, five houses, all paid for, 9 degrees, solid incomes, assured retirements, and much more. Did I mention, no debt!

How much do you thing that applies to any random native American or child of slavery?

I do not agree with reparations in terms of cash payments. But, fer crissakes, the oppression, indifference and results of that oppression and indifference are acutely visible to this day. Something must and should be done - but short of a complete attitude transplant, in a world where 25% - 30 % of the American population adores the Orange Toad, this is unlikely.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Thanks for saying the above.

Political systems are responsible for the actions of their predecessors
for as long as the political system has been in continuous existence.

Thus in Canada we try to make reparations to those wronged by previous
governments and hold Truth and Reconciliation councils.

Our federal and provincial governments were aware of the situation in
first nations reserves and did next to nothing. A federal health officer
tried to get the federal parliament to pay attention to the death rate
and poverty back in 1910 and was pensioned off and spent some of his
last years on Parliament Hill handing out leaflets to people to try and
get people to look into this tragedy.

Everyone involved in this fiasco is long dead, but our federal
government (and most provincial governments) has accepted responsibility
for the actions of previous legal governments and is doing what it can
to change how things are done here.

That is how adults deal with past errors.

John

 

[Guy Patterson]

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 9:17:04 AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2023-05-08/california-reparations-task-force-votes-approve-cost-recommendations-800-billion

I thought it was a principle under civil law that when someone has
been wronged and compensation deemed appropriate, the money is taken
from those who have become unjustly enriched and given to those who
have suffered as a result of that wrongdoing. But that\'s not what\'s
being contemplated here. The persons who committed the original wrongs
are all long dead, as are those who suffered at their hands. I don\'t
see how one can justly apportion blame among those alive today. They
have done no wrong and the people who it is proposed to compensate
have suffered no wrong either.
What are we supposed to do? Just shrug and resign ourselves to saying
California\'s different? Are they really going to go ahead with this?

Ah yes, the foul stench of white liberals falling over themselves to show how evolved they are. Fork over money, but don\'t let us in your neighborhoods. Pay and look away.

Nothing has ruined our prospects more than \"good\" intentions doing far more harm than good. In America, black children are now born to single mothers at more than twice the rate of the 1960s and at a far higher rate than white families, and this is directly because of policies that allow welfare payments if there the father doesn\'t live with the child. Single mother and no father? Sign here thank you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzNYCPZXvlw

If whitey is the one with the privilege, why do formerly disadvantaged groups like Asians and Indians/Pakistanis now exceed whites in education and family income? Liberals say all the right things but they don\'t believe down deep that we are equals. They are actually the racists but will never recognize this.

 

[Guy Patterson]

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:52:26 PM UTC-4, ohg...@gmail.com wrote:
If anyone *today* is suffering in America because of their race, then they would have been better off if their ancestors were never brought to America.. Money *and* repatriation is the only way to right this wrong.


Wow, that resonates with me. It\'s difficult for me to reconcile the fact that I am living in the best country in the world because my ancestors were brought here in slave ships, and it\'s something I\'ve thought of often. There is no place I\'d rather live than where I am right now.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

On 18/05/2023 9:42 am, John Robertson wrote:

On 2023/05/09 11:45 a.m., Peter W. wrote:
Apply some logic:

a) Native Americas and children of slaves were not given opportunities
for education, training, mortgages, nor many of the other means to
accumulate wealth as were whites of any origin. It took Harry Truman
to integrate the Military as one single example. The last \"Indian
School\" was closed in 1969, as another.
b) Accordingly, the cumulative effect of wealth-gathering was denied
to them as a race, as a class, as a group.
c) Today, as a race, class or group, they are still suffering from
that denial with (generally) poorer education, fewer opportunities,
reduced health, and much more.
d) So, there is a 500 year history of everything from direct
oppression to complete indifference to overcome.

And, guess what? The entire \"white\" race continues to be enriched by
this.

Neither of my parents spoke English as a first language. But they were
both University educated, white, and ambitious. They left their
children with excellent educations, no debt, and a strong sense of
mutual obligation to the \'social contract\' that sustains all of us. We
have given our children excellent educations, left them with no debt,
and they are doing the same for theirs. BUT - we have, between the
four families, five houses, all paid for, 9 degrees, solid incomes,
assured retirements, and much more. Did I mention, no debt!

How much do you thing that applies to any random native American or
child of slavery?

I do not agree with reparations in terms of cash payments. But, fer
crissakes, the oppression, indifference and results of that oppression
and indifference are acutely visible to this day. Something must and
should be done - but short of a complete attitude transplant, in a
world where 25% - 30 % of the American population adores the Orange
Toad, this is  unlikely.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Thanks for saying the above.

Political systems are responsible for the actions of their predecessors
for as long as the political system has been in continuous existence.

Thus in Canada we try to make reparations to those wronged by previous
governments and hold Truth and Reconciliation councils.

Our federal and provincial governments were aware of the situation in
first nations reserves and did next to nothing. A federal health officer
tried to get the federal parliament to pay attention to the death rate
and poverty back in 1910 and was pensioned off and spent some of his
last years on Parliament Hill handing out leaflets to people to try and
get people to look into this tragedy.

Everyone involved in this fiasco is long dead, but our federal
government (and most provincial governments) has accepted responsibility
for the actions of previous legal governments and is doing what it can
to change how things are done here.

That is how adults deal with past errors.

John

**Indeed. Much the same occurs/has occurred here in Australia with our
indigenous population. We are well behind Canada and the US in
addressing the wrongs perpetrated by the invaders.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Thu, 18 May 2023 10:04:54 -0700 (PDT), Guy Patterson
<str00ntz@aol.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 9:17:04?AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2023-05-08/california-reparations-task-force-votes-approve-cost-recommendations-800-billion

I thought it was a principle under civil law that when someone has
been wronged and compensation deemed appropriate, the money is taken
from those who have become unjustly enriched and given to those who
have suffered as a result of that wrongdoing. But that\'s not what\'s
being contemplated here. The persons who committed the original wrongs
are all long dead, as are those who suffered at their hands. I don\'t
see how one can justly apportion blame among those alive today. They
have done no wrong and the people who it is proposed to compensate
have suffered no wrong either.
What are we supposed to do? Just shrug and resign ourselves to saying
California\'s different? Are they really going to go ahead with this?

Ah yes, the foul stench of white liberals falling over themselves to show how evolved they are. Fork over money, but don\'t let us in your neighborhoods. Pay and look away.

Nothing has ruined our prospects more than \"good\" intentions doing far more harm than good. In America, black children are now born to single mothers at more than twice the rate of the 1960s and at a far higher rate than white families, and this is directly because of policies that allow welfare payments if there the father doesn\'t live with the child. Single mother and no father? Sign here thank you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzNYCPZXvlw

If whitey is the one with the privilege, why do formerly disadvantaged groups like Asians and Indians/Pakistanis now exceed whites in education and family income? Liberals say all the right things but they don\'t believe down deep that we are equals. They are actually the racists but will never recognize this.

There will now follow a stunned silence whilst white liberal racists
try to come to terms with the consequences of their policies. Or more
likely, they\'ll just come up with some more dogma in an effort to
cover their tracks.

 

[Peter W.]

“No one in this world, so far as I know — and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”

H.L. Mencken

Mr. Patterson, Mr. Doom, thank you for being such exemplars of the above.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Mon, 22 May 2023 03:54:02 -0700 (PDT), \"Peter W.\"
<peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

“No one in this world, so far as I know — and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”

H.L. Mencken

Mr. Patterson, Mr. Doom, thank you for being such exemplars of the above.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

You people have been well and truly brainwashed. You can\'t see it\'s a
cult you\'ve bought into and you\'re totally blind to reality.