OT Geography Q (Middle East)

[Rich The Philosophizer]

I was looking at the map, actually it was prompted by somebody
saying they wanted to nuke the area back to magma, and I noticed
something curious: Where do those "Palestinian" folks live? I
had thought that there was a whole nother country over there:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/middle_east_pol_2003.jpg

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Tim Wescott]

Rich The Philosophizer wrote:

I was looking at the map, actually it was prompted by somebody
saying they wanted to nuke the area back to magma, and I noticed
something curious: Where do those "Palestinian" folks live? I
had thought that there was a whole nother country over there:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/middle_east_pol_2003.jpg

Thanks,
Rich

Boy, you've been sleeping, haven't you. They live all over, but mostly

in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, Jordan, Lebannon, and New York City.

"Palestine" was the name for the area now known as "Israel". It was
partitioned, by UN mandate, in 1948 into a jewish section and a
palestinian section. The Palestinians (and indeed the entire arab
world) didn't want to recognize the right for Israel to exist, so they
fought and lost, and lost again in 1967, and again in the early 70's, etc.

Surely you can find a history of all this by doing a bit of web
searching! That area has a rich and bloody history, going back as far
as anybody was writing stuff down. Paying attention to it clears up a
_lot_ about what's going on, and why there are no simple answers.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

 

[Terry Given]

Tim Wescott wrote:

Rich The Philosophizer wrote:

I was looking at the map, actually it was prompted by somebody
saying they wanted to nuke the area back to magma, and I noticed
something curious: Where do those "Palestinian" folks live? I
had thought that there was a whole nother country over there:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/middle_east_pol_2003.jpg


Thanks,
Rich

Boy, you've been sleeping, haven't you. They live all over, but mostly
in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, Jordan, Lebannon, and New York City.

"Palestine" was the name for the area now known as "Israel". It was
partitioned, by UN mandate, in 1948 into a jewish section and a
palestinian section. The Palestinians (and indeed the entire arab
world) didn't want to recognize the right for Israel to exist, so they
fought and lost, and lost again in 1967, and again in the early 70's, etc.

Surely you can find a history of all this by doing a bit of web
searching! That area has a rich and bloody history, going back as far
as anybody was writing stuff down. Paying attention to it clears up a
_lot_ about what's going on, and why there are no simple answers.

I recommend "The oxford history of the biblical world", its a
fascinating read and covers about 4,000 years.

Cheers
Terry

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 13:29:26 +1300, Terry Given <my_name@ieee.org>
wrote:

I recommend "The oxford history of the biblical world", its a
fascinating read and covers about 4,000 years.

Who wrote it? Who are we to believe in??
Personally, I believe in what I (highly-selectively) see and read. The
mainstream media lets me down badly. I don't buy it.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Terry Given]

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 13:29:26 +1300, Terry Given <my_name@ieee.org
wrote:


I recommend "The oxford history of the biblical world", its a
fascinating read and covers about 4,000 years.


Who wrote it? Who are we to believe in??
Personally, I believe in what I (highly-selectively) see and read. The
mainstream media lets me down badly. I don't buy it.

Brought to you by the same people as the oxford dictionary. Have a read,
its fascinating stuff.

Cheers
Terry

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:38:31 -0800, Tim Wescott wrote:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/middle_east_pol_2003.jpg

Thanks,
Rich

Boy, you've been sleeping, haven't you.

Pretty much, yeah, thanks.

They live all over, but mostly
in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, Jordan, Lebannon, and New York City.

"Palestine" was the name for the area now known as "Israel".

OK, so that would explain why they're a little pissed.

It was
partitioned, by UN mandate, in 1948 into a jewish section and a
palestinian section. The Palestinians (and indeed the entire arab
world) didn't want to recognize the right for Israel to exist, so they
fought and lost, and lost again in 1967, and again in the early 70's, etc.

Surely you can find a history of all this by doing a bit of web
searching! That area has a rich and bloody history, going back as far
as anybody was writing stuff down. Paying attention to it clears up a
_lot_ about what's going on, and why there are no simple answers.

Oh, yeah, of course I could, but it's too much like work. I just
was kinda surprised just how much I haven't been paying attention
to, since I really honestly expected to see something labeled
"Palestine."

(and if I wanted to be poopy, I could whine, "But that's what I
was dooooooiinnnnnnnng!". )

Now that I think about it, I think I got my entire education
about the area in Sunday school 50 years ago. And the 6-days
war was very popular at the time, as I remember.

Thanks!
Rich

 

[Le Chaud Lapin]

Tim Wescott <tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote in message news:<10oqo3inrg5j865@corp.supernews.com>...

Rich The Philosophizer wrote:
"Palestine" was the name for the area now known as "Israel". It was
partitioned, by UN mandate, in 1948 into a jewish section and a
palestinian section. The Palestinians (and indeed the entire arab
world) didn't want to recognize the right for Israel to exist, so they
fought and lost, and lost again in 1967, and again in the early 70's, etc.

And the U.S. and Russia both recognized the "State" of Israel only 16
minutes after the declaration.

The hypocrisy rampant in Western World with regard to the Middle East
makes me want to vomit every time I think about it. Truth? Justice?
Bunch of bullsh*t!

The U.S. is not really interested in truth or justice. The U.S. is
interested in stability and democracy, and if a few "towel heads", as
some American soliders like to call them, get run over in the process,
so be it.

The vast majority of people on this planet are still animal to a
certain extent. They are mainly concerned about their own asses. The
formulation of any policy, no matter how well intended in the
beginning, somehow results in someone getting screwed, and that
someone is generally not the entity instituting the policy. The
British, Belgians, Germans, and French were experts at this. Every now
and then they would rape some part of Africa, then justify it with
100-page documents. The Italians tried the same thing, and got their
asses kicked, fortunately, in Eritrea and Ethiopia. The Germans on
the other hand did not. Though they had no business in Namibia, they
waged a "successful" campaign killing almost 20,000 in under a few
weeks.

Look at the continent of Africa. It's a this huge black mass, with
bunch of small white dots, conveniently located in places of high
altitude with moderate climates and/or billions of dollars in gold and
diamonds, and oil.

Now could you imagine the U.S.A. taking the side of Palestine:

"No, we do not recognize the infiltration of preoccupied territory by
foreign agents who usurp control of the territory then attempt to
legitimize the usurpation by laws written for them, executed by them,
in favor of them, without regard to the detriment of the occupants."

No, if the U.S.A. ever made a statement like that, it would sound too
much like Europeans coming in to overtake Native Americans.

I know I will do my part. I do not believe in hate, but until I
detect that those who oppress others have learned genuine, deep-rooted
empathy, I will never let them forget what their ancestors did.

Hypocrites.

-Chaud Lapin-

 

[John Larkin]

On 7 Nov 2004 05:20:56 -0800, unoriginal_username@yahoo.com (Le Chaud
Lapin) wrote:

Tim Wescott <tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote in message news:<10oqo3inrg5j865@corp.supernews.com>...
Rich The Philosophizer wrote:
"Palestine" was the name for the area now known as "Israel". It was
partitioned, by UN mandate, in 1948 into a jewish section and a
palestinian section. The Palestinians (and indeed the entire arab
world) didn't want to recognize the right for Israel to exist, so they
fought and lost, and lost again in 1967, and again in the early 70's, etc.

And the U.S. and Russia both recognized the "State" of Israel only 16
minutes after the declaration.

The hypocrisy rampant in Western World with regard to the Middle East
makes me want to vomit every time I think about it. Truth? Justice?
Bunch of bullsh*t!

The U.S. is not really interested in truth or justice. The U.S. is
interested in stability and democracy, and if a few "towel heads", as
some American soliders like to call them, get run over in the process,
so be it.

The vast majority of people on this planet are still animal to a
certain extent. They are mainly concerned about their own asses. The
formulation of any policy, no matter how well intended in the
beginning, somehow results in someone getting screwed, and that
someone is generally not the entity instituting the policy. The
British, Belgians, Germans, and French were experts at this. Every now
and then they would rape some part of Africa, then justify it with
100-page documents. The Italians tried the same thing, and got their
asses kicked, fortunately, in Eritrea and Ethiopia. The Germans on
the other hand did not. Though they had no business in Namibia, they
waged a "successful" campaign killing almost 20,000 in under a few
weeks.

Look at the continent of Africa. It's a this huge black mass, with
bunch of small white dots, conveniently located in places of high
altitude with moderate climates and/or billions of dollars in gold and
diamonds, and oil.

Now could you imagine the U.S.A. taking the side of Palestine:

"No, we do not recognize the infiltration of preoccupied territory by
foreign agents who usurp control of the territory then attempt to
legitimize the usurpation by laws written for them, executed by them,
in favor of them, without regard to the detriment of the occupants."

No, if the U.S.A. ever made a statement like that, it would sound too
much like Europeans coming in to overtake Native Americans.

I know I will do my part. I do not believe in hate, but until I
detect that those who oppress others have learned genuine, deep-rooted
empathy, I will never let them forget what their ancestors did.

Do you refer to the Holocaust? The europeans seem eager to forget
that!

Remember, Jews lived in Israel for a couple thousand years before
Islam was invented, and european genocide convinced them that having
their own homeland was the only way they would be allowed to survive.

John

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 11:59:03 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:49:44 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

[snip]

Isn't it stunning how absolutely IGNORANT Burridge is? "...some dump
like Wyoming, where no one lives and no one would want to live."

If he keeps it up he'll become a household word, "Burridge, a unit of
measure for ignorance" ;-)

...Jim Thompson


We'd have to use uB's (MicroBurridges) as practical units.

John

Sno-o-o-o-o-rt! ROTFLMAO!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Terry Given]

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 11:59:03 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:


On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:49:44 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:


[snip]

Isn't it stunning how absolutely IGNORANT Burridge is? "...some dump
like Wyoming, where no one lives and no one would want to live."

If he keeps it up he'll become a household word, "Burridge, a unit of
measure for ignorance" ;-)

...Jim Thompson


We'd have to use uB's (MicroBurridges) as practical units.

John


Sno-o-o-o-o-rt! ROTFLMAO!

...Jim Thompson

Ditto. Delightfully witty, Gentlemen. What state should he have
suggested - North Dakota? (ISTR thats the most popular state to leave)

Cheers
Terry

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 11:15:59 +1300, Terry Given <my_name@ieee.org>
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 11:59:03 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:


On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:49:44 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:


[snip]

Isn't it stunning how absolutely IGNORANT Burridge is? "...some dump
like Wyoming, where no one lives and no one would want to live."

If he keeps it up he'll become a household word, "Burridge, a unit of
measure for ignorance" ;-)

...Jim Thompson


We'd have to use uB's (MicroBurridges) as practical units.

John


Sno-o-o-o-o-rt! ROTFLMAO!

...Jim Thompson

Ditto. Delightfully witty, Gentlemen. What state should he have
suggested - North Dakota? (ISTR thats the most popular state to leave)

Cheers
Terry

The only state that I know of that is losing population is West
Virginia, my home state.

Perversely controlled by sap-head Democrats, such as Senator Robert
Byrd. (He became Senator the same year I graduated from high school,
1958... 46 YEARS AGO!)

Jerks who think it's best to keep everyone on welfare, so they can
appear to be heroes as they bring "plums" (like an IRS facility to
the state in place of viable commercial businesses that can employ
people at good wages.

So anyone with half a brain flees the state (as I did in 1958).

In October, when I visited, I was astonished that virtually everyone
in line ahead of me at the grocery store had a "food stamp" debit card
:-(

Crazy-assed place. In 1958 I was presented an academic award by my
congressman, at that time, Ken Hechler, WWII Historian and author of
"The Bridge at Remagen".

This last trip, I noticed some political signs, "Ken Hechler for
Secretary of State". I asked my dad, "Is that Ken's son?". He said,
"No, No, That's old Ken, he's 92 years old" ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Clarence]

"John Crighton" <john_c@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:418e8c76.5303373@News.individual.net...


No one cares what you think "Jack"

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 11:36:42 -0800, John Larkin wrote:

What I don't yet understand is why there is a Palestine.

That's odd - I was wondering why there _isn't_ one.

Why aren't
Gaza and the West Bank simply parts of Egypt and Jordan? If they were,
the region would be at peace, and Israel would be a lot smaller.

Elephino!

Thanks,
Rich

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 23:20:43 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
<null@example.net> wrote:

US as World Policeman! You must be kidding!

No, that's sort of the situation. The UN would be of course far
preferable, except that too many of its members - including a couple
of permanent Security Panel members - are despotic regimes that
certainly don't want precedents set.

US as world jackbooted nazi thug, maybe?

Uh, excuse me, but the Nazis were German, and we fought against them.
If you want to trash the US, please find a new word that's not Nazi:
that's already taken.

John

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 16:22:39 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:45:22 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:


The only state that I know of that is losing population is West
Virginia, my home state.

Perversely controlled by sap-head Democrats, such as Senator Robert
Byrd. (He became Senator the same year I graduated from high school,
1958... 46 YEARS AGO!)


Wasn't he a KKK member once?

John

Of course. But you can only be a racist if you're a Democrat... if a
Republican so much as congratulates a southern bigot on his birthday
you're outa here ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:45:22 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

The only state that I know of that is losing population is West
Virginia, my home state.

Perversely controlled by sap-head Democrats, such as Senator Robert
Byrd. (He became Senator the same year I graduated from high school,
1958... 46 YEARS AGO!)

Wasn't he a KKK member once?

John

 

[Rich Grise]

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:57:26 +1300, Terry Given wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

How about Austria? That sounds fair.

John


Only if they promise to stamp out Oompah bands.

Unless, of course, they're playing "La Cucaracha."

;^j
Rich

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 09:40:30 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:05:42 GMT, the renowned Ralph Barone
rdbarone@shaw.ca> wrote:

In article <J%djd.4520$op3.171596@news.xtra.co.nz>,
Terry Given <my_name@ieee.org> wrote:

Tim Wescott wrote:

Rich The Philosophizer wrote:

I was looking at the map, actually it was prompted by somebody
saying they wanted to nuke the area back to magma, and I noticed
something curious: Where do those "Palestinian" folks live? I
had thought that there was a whole nother country over there:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/middle_east_pol_2003.jp
g


Thanks,
Rich

Boy, you've been sleeping, haven't you. They live all over, but mostly
in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, Jordan, Lebannon, and New York City.

"Palestine" was the name for the area now known as "Israel". It was
partitioned, by UN mandate, in 1948 into a jewish section and a
palestinian section. The Palestinians (and indeed the entire arab
world) didn't want to recognize the right for Israel to exist, so they
fought and lost, and lost again in 1967, and again in the early 70's, etc.

Surely you can find a history of all this by doing a bit of web
searching! That area has a rich and bloody history, going back as far
as anybody was writing stuff down. Paying attention to it clears up a
_lot_ about what's going on, and why there are no simple answers.


I recommend "The oxford history of the biblical world", its a
fascinating read and covers about 4,000 years.

Cheers
Terry

Also highly recommended is Larry Gonick's "Cartoon History of the
Universe, Volume 3", which gives a lot of background on the Middle East.
Admittedly, it ends around the time of the Crusades...

Here's a pretty well-balanced summary of the current situation and how
it got there in recent history:

http://www.ciia.org/bth.htm#

Click on "Vol. 61 No.1/Autumn 2003 The Israeli/Palestinian Conundrum:
Is there a way out? by Michael Bell"

There's ample blame to go around, it seems.

Very good stuff. But might I humbly suggest that the real origin of
the current crisis over Israel and Palestine is almost entirely
European:

A millenium of anti-semitism created Israel (and a militant Israel, in
the sense of being annoyed with pogroms, broken glass, and boxcars);
European anti-semitism endures. "The Merchant of Venice" was written
as a comedy!

The British penchant for scribbling on maps carved up Palestine.

European anti-semitism drove many Jews to the US where they acquired
huge financial and political power, enough to materially encourage the
declaration of the state of Israel.

The horrors of WWII made the US into - at least initially - a
reluctant superpower, and the Cold War in Europe and Asia kept it so
and turned the US into the world's policeman.



What I don't yet understand is why there is a Palestine. Why aren't
Gaza and the West Bank simply parts of Egypt and Jordan? If they were,
the region would be at peace, and Israel would be a lot smaller.

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:16:33 +0000, Paul Burridge
<pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 02:18:37 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
null@example.net> wrote:

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:38:31 -0800, Tim Wescott wrote:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/middle_east_pol_2003.jpg

Thanks,
Rich

Boy, you've been sleeping, haven't you.

Pretty much, yeah, thanks.

They live all over, but mostly
in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, Jordan, Lebannon, and New York City.

"Palestine" was the name for the area now known as "Israel".

OK, so that would explain why they're a little pissed.

I recall when I first started in junior school, there was a large and
rather old map of the world on the wall. Most of it was coloured pink,
which indicated the territories that were part of the British Empire.
ISTR Palestine (the area now designated as Israel) was also pink, so
giving it over to the Jews must have been some of our doing. I believe
the state was set up in 1948 as a result of the Holocaust; the Jews
felt they needed a safe homeland and understandably, very few
disagreed with them! But sure, the Palestinians were pissed off about
having their country appropriated in this way. I've never understood
why a safe homeland for the Jews wasn't set up in some dump like
Wyoming, where no one lives and no one would want to live. Okay, so it
would have upset a few injuns, but when did the US ever GaS about the
likes of them?

Even been to Wyoming? It's stunningly beautiful.

But the Jews that came to the US mostly preferred the cities.

John

 

[Clifford Heath]

John Larkin wrote:

But might I humbly suggest that the real origin of
the current crisis over Israel and Palestine is almost entirely
European:
A millenium of anti-semitism created Israel

Did you forget what the Romans did to the previous Israel?
Much more than a millenium of European involvement there...
Or that the Israelis were invaders there when Abraham moved in,
and again when Joshua moved back? But of course they had a G*d
given mandate to commit genocide back then (ask any Hittite),
and apparently still do now.

What I don't yet understand is why there is a Palestine. Why aren't
Gaza and the West Bank simply parts of Egypt and Jordan?

Jordan was created in the partition (1921), it's just the name given
to the other 3/4 of Palestine. But just b/c it was part of the
same country doesn't mean the folk who were turned out of Israel
should want to live there instead of their ancestral lands.

Pauridge: Google for "Balfour Declaration".