ot economics, bad...

[rbowman]

On 07/22/2022 03:26 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 14:40:23 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com
wrote:

On 07/22/2022 09:47 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 13:55:07 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com
wrote:

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:

Isn\'t raising interest rates the correct solution?

[...]

Yeah, Islam has a lot of problems. Banking is not in the top 10,
unfortunately.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

But I think this proves that raising interest rates is the correct
solution.

Except for the aforementioned sovereign debt problem, which is sitting
there like a bear trap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

And that is precisely where Turkey is headed. That\'s why they want to steal
private gold. Because their economy is wrecked since they won\'t increase
interest rates.


No government should control interest rates. They should be set by a
supply-and-demand microeconomic market, like apples and paper clips.

When a government controls money supply and public spending and
interest rates, expect troubles.


If you look at the roots of central banks like the Bank of England or
the Second Bank of the United States you usually find a government
living beyond its means.

Usually?

Possibly sometime in the history of the world there was an exception.
I\'m a programmer by trade and seldom make absolute statements.

It wasn\'t exactly a central bank but Rome had a monopoly on minting
coinage and kept debasing it to support their wars. Biden would be proud
of Diocletian\'s attempt to set maximum prices and blame it all on
merchants and hoarders. iirc the story didn\'t end well.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 13:55:07 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com
wrote:

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:

Isn\'t raising interest rates the correct solution?

[...]

Yeah, Islam has a lot of problems. Banking is not in the top 10,
unfortunately.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

But I think this proves that raising interest rates is the correct
solution.

Except for the aforementioned sovereign debt problem, which is sitting
there like a bear trap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

And that is precisely where Turkey is headed. That\'s why they want to steal
private gold. Because their economy is wrecked since they won\'t increase
interest rates.


No government should control interest rates. They should be set by a
supply-and-demand microeconomic market, like apples and paper clips.

When a government controls money supply and public spending and
interest rates, expect troubles.

Sort of hard to avoid when the currency is based on nothing but the
promises of the government. That\'s true whether the currency is backed
by gold or (as currently) apparently by unicorn farts.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 1:48:09 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 13:55:07 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett wrote:

<snip>

No government should control interest rates. They should be set by a
supply-and-demand microeconomic market, like apples and paper clips.

This is right-wing nit-wit economic fundamentalism. It ignores the fact that the supply-and-demand economic market comes down to human decisions, and humans are subject to irrational swings between feckless optimism, which gives you the Tulip Mania or the South Sea Bubble, and despairing pessimism which gave you the Great Depression. There are also the crooks who set up cartels and other price-fixing schemes which can stop the market from being as free as it needs to be

> When a government controls money supply and public spending and interest rates, expect troubles.

If they have enough sense to use that control to regulate the market, clean out the crooks and damp down the irrational exuberance, you won\'t get trouble. If they are silly enough to believe in the wisdom of the totally free market, you will get trouble - but from the market rather than the government.

You can get even sillier people in government, as Sri Lanka managed to do recently, and they can wreck the economy without any help from the market.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 11:18:17 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:

jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 13:55:07 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett wrote:

<snip>

No government should control interest rates. They should be set by a
supply-and-demand microeconomic market, like apples and paper clips.

When a government controls money supply and public spending and
interest rates, expect troubles.

Sort of hard to avoid when the currency is based on nothing but the
promises of the government. That\'s true whether the currency is backed
by gold or (as currently) apparently by unicorn farts.

Currency is merely a medium of exchange. The economy actually works by barter, and currency lubricates the barter.

Governments can screw up the process by making a mess of the money supply, setting up a situation where nobody is gong to bother making anything because they can\'t barter with enough people to swap what they make for what they need, but if there is enough currency in circulation (not too much or too little) it doesn\'t matter how it is \"backed\".

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 23/7/22 11:45, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 11:18:17 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 13:55:07 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett wrote:

snip

No government should control interest rates. They should be set by a
supply-and-demand microeconomic market, like apples and paper clips.

When a government controls money supply and public spending and
interest rates, expect troubles.

Sort of hard to avoid when the currency is based on nothing but the
promises of the government. That\'s true whether the currency is backed
by gold or (as currently) apparently by unicorn farts.

Currency is merely a medium of exchange. The economy actually works by barter, and currency lubricates the barter.

Money is exchangeable debt. When you buy some thing from me, I give you
the thing, and I take the money (debt) that you offer. Some time later I
can call in the debt by offering it to someone else in return for what
they have.

When governments print new money, they\'re saying they think the economy
would work better with more outstanding debt.

When there\'s too much debt, inflation is the mechanism for eroding it.

What\'s wierd about the world economy right now is that globally we have
well over 10x the amount of debt as we have total value of all the
things held or potentially available for sale. That\'s a bit scary. It\'s
musical chairs, but there is only 1 chair for every ten people.

Clifford Heath

 

[Martin Brown]

On 22/07/2022 21:40, rbowman wrote:

On 07/22/2022 09:47 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 13:55:07 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com
wrote:

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:

Isn\'t raising interest rates the correct solution?

[...]

Yeah, Islam has a lot of problems.  Banking is not in the top 10,
unfortunately.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

But I think this proves that raising interest rates is the correct
solution.

Except for the aforementioned sovereign debt problem, which is sitting
there like a bear trap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

And that is precisely where Turkey is headed. That\'s why they want to
steal
private gold. Because their economy is wrecked since they won\'t increase
interest rates.


No government should control interest rates. They should be set by a
supply-and-demand microeconomic market, like apples and paper clips.

When a government controls money supply and public spending and
interest rates, expect troubles.


If you look at the roots of central banks like the Bank of England or
the Second Bank of the United States you usually find a government
living beyond its means.

But that is what the people want and populist politicians will promise
anything they think will get them elected however crazy it may be.

You only have to look at the UK\'s blue on blue dogfight for PM.

The honest guy Rishi Sunak stands no chance of winning by telling the
truth about our rather dire situation as a result of Brexit and Covid
whereas clueless Liz Truss will walk it on a tax cuts for all ticket.

Tinkerbellism is alive and well. If you believe in enough impossible
things before breakfast like the red/blue queen they will happen...

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 4:27:07 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 23/7/22 11:45, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 11:18:17 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 13:55:07 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett wrote:

<snip>

Sort of hard to avoid when the currency is based on nothing but the
promises of the government. That\'s true whether the currency is backed
by gold or (as currently) apparently by unicorn farts.

Currency is merely a medium of exchange. The economy actually works by barter, and currency lubricates the barter.

Money is exchangeable debt. When you buy some thing from me, I give you
the thing, and I take the money (debt) that you offer. Some time later I
can call in the debt by offering it to someone else in return for what
they have.

That\'s saying the same thing in different words. Clearly you were priming us for your claim about the volume of global debt.

When governments print new money, they\'re saying they think the economy
would work better with more outstanding debt.

When there\'s too much debt, inflation is the mechanism for eroding it.

What\'s wierd about the world economy right now is that globally we have
well over 10x the amount of debt as we have total value of all the
things held or potentially available for sale.

What makes you think that? And what do you class as a \"thing that is potentially available for sale\"?

The NSW government spends money on building longer and wider roads, which aren\'t exactly negotiable objects, but then sells off the right to charge motorists tolls for driving along them

> That\'s a bit scary. It\'s musical chairs, but there is only 1 chair for every ten people.

it might be, if it were true. It sounds more like one of those pseudo facts that get invented by people who want to sound impressive.

Historically, governments sell bonds to raise money to pay for weapons when they are fighting a war. Weapons get used up, and aren\'t all that much use after the war has ended. Were you counting the war bonds issued by the Russian imperial government before 1917 as part of the debt you were talking about?

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[rbowman]

On 07/23/2022 02:31 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

On 22/07/2022 21:40, rbowman wrote:
On 07/22/2022 09:47 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 13:55:07 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com
wrote:

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:

Isn\'t raising interest rates the correct solution?

[...]

Yeah, Islam has a lot of problems. Banking is not in the top 10,
unfortunately.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

But I think this proves that raising interest rates is the correct
solution.

Except for the aforementioned sovereign debt problem, which is sitting
there like a bear trap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

And that is precisely where Turkey is headed. That\'s why they want
to steal
private gold. Because their economy is wrecked since they won\'t
increase
interest rates.


No government should control interest rates. They should be set by a
supply-and-demand microeconomic market, like apples and paper clips.

When a government controls money supply and public spending and
interest rates, expect troubles.


If you look at the roots of central banks like the Bank of England or
the Second Bank of the United States you usually find a government
living beyond its means.

But that is what the people want and populist politicians will promise
anything they think will get them elected however crazy it may be.

You only have to look at the UK\'s blue on blue dogfight for PM.

The honest guy Rishi Sunak stands no chance of winning by telling the
truth about our rather dire situation as a result of Brexit and Covid
whereas clueless Liz Truss will walk it on a tax cuts for all ticket.

Tinkerbellism is alive and well. If you believe in enough impossible
things before breakfast like the red/blue queen they will happen...

When a sizable segment of the electorate supports its life style with
smoke, mirrors, and credit card debt you can hardly expect them to vote
for a politician with a realistic view.

 

[server]

On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 09:31:27 +0100, Martin Brown
<\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 22/07/2022 21:40, rbowman wrote:
On 07/22/2022 09:47 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 13:55:07 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com
wrote:

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:

Isn\'t raising interest rates the correct solution?

[...]

Yeah, Islam has a lot of problems.  Banking is not in the top 10,
unfortunately.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

But I think this proves that raising interest rates is the correct
solution.

Except for the aforementioned sovereign debt problem, which is sitting
there like a bear trap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

And that is precisely where Turkey is headed. That\'s why they want to
steal
private gold. Because their economy is wrecked since they won\'t increase
interest rates.


No government should control interest rates. They should be set by a
supply-and-demand microeconomic market, like apples and paper clips.

When a government controls money supply and public spending and
interest rates, expect troubles.


If you look at the roots of central banks like the Bank of England or
the Second Bank of the United States you usually find a government
living beyond its means.

But that is what the people want and populist politicians will promise
anything they think will get them elected however crazy it may be.

You only have to look at the UK\'s blue on blue dogfight for PM.

The honest guy Rishi Sunak stands no chance of winning by telling the
truth about our rather dire situation as a result of Brexit and Covid
whereas clueless Liz Truss will walk it on a tax cuts for all ticket.

Tinkerbellism is alive and well. If you believe in enough impossible
things before breakfast like the red/blue queen they will happen...

There are basic conservation principles at work. When governments
trash productivity, the payment means - taxes, inflation, crime,
whatever - are details. Less stuff produced, less stuff there is.

But people can be bought short-term, and it\'s a hard sell, policies
that will make things better in 20 years.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, July 24, 2022 at 6:42:38 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 09:31:27 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 22/07/2022 21:40, rbowman wrote:
On 07/22/2022 09:47 AM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 13:55:07 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com
wrote:

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Mike Monett wrote:

Isn\'t raising interest rates the correct solution?

[...]

Yeah, Islam has a lot of problems. Banking is not in the top 10,
unfortunately.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

But I think this proves that raising interest rates is the correct
solution.

Except for the aforementioned sovereign debt problem, which is sitting
there like a bear trap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

And that is precisely where Turkey is headed. That\'s why they want to
steal
private gold. Because their economy is wrecked since they won\'t increase
interest rates.


No government should control interest rates. They should be set by a
supply-and-demand microeconomic market, like apples and paper clips.

When a government controls money supply and public spending and
interest rates, expect troubles.


If you look at the roots of central banks like the Bank of England or
the Second Bank of the United States you usually find a government
living beyond its means.

But that is what the people want and populist politicians will promise
anything they think will get them elected however crazy it may be.

You only have to look at the UK\'s blue on blue dogfight for PM.

The honest guy Rishi Sunak stands no chance of winning by telling the
truth about our rather dire situation as a result of Brexit and Covid
whereas clueless Liz Truss will walk it on a tax cuts for all ticket.

Tinkerbellism is alive and well. If you believe in enough impossible
things before breakfast like the red/blue queen they will happen...

There are basic conservation principles at work.

But none that John Larkin knows anything about.

> When governments trash productivity, the payment means - taxes, inflation, crime, whatever - are details. Less stuff produced, less stuff there is.

But governments don\'t produce stuff. That is mostly down to businesses, some of them operating under government control, and governments rarely trash productivity - or at least, not in their own countries. Russia is trashing the productivity of the Ukranian economy at the moment, and Reagan\'s support for the Contra\'s trashed the productivity of Nicaragua back in thev late 1980\'s.

Right-wing nit-wits do see any kind of government intervention as \"trashing productivity\" because the interventions have a habit of stopping crooked businessmen ripping off their customers, and the businessmen - criminals - involved do like to claim that their rip-offs are perfectly legitimate business activities.

> But people can be bought short-term, and it\'s a hard sell, policies that will make things better in 20 years.

Pretty much impossible. And if John Larkin claimed that some scheme would make things better in 20 years - such burning even more fossil carbon as fuel - there might be some scepticism expressed, if not downright incredulity.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Les Cargill]

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 18:13:42 -0500, Les Cargill <lcargil99@gmail.com
wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:



https://www.breitbart.com/asia/2022/07/14/china-urges-world-to-disregard-protesters-storming-banks-for-cash/

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/bonds-slump-inflation-surge-fuels-130720879.html

I don\'t understand the concept that raising interest rates counters
inflation. Maybe that\'s an economics myth. Rising interest rates *are*
inflation.


Related but not equivalent:

\"The act of raising interest rates is generally a signal of
disinflationary intent, but periods of rising interest rates are often
inflationary (i.e. the 1960s and 1970s). \"

https://www.themoneyillusion.com/nick-rowe-on-interest-rates-and-inflation/


\"That’s also my ultimate thing. Keynesianism is another example of how
this can go badly wrong. Not ideal New Keynesianism, but actual, real
world Keynesianism.\"

Ah, humor.

Yep. Although it\'s seasoning and not the soup. He just keeps the
madness to a minimum.

IOW - \"trimpots bad\".

The Chinese and US issues are both driven by political stupidity and
corruption.


Politics means a variation on bad spaghetti dinners for months on
end. Think about the sort that attracts. ( stolen from PJ
O\'Rourke )

I wasn\'t going to mention this, being off-topic, but you did open the
issue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascatelli

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wqsw4gb0714tugr/AADrQVtSGhejmKbmfiSWkeswa?dl=0

I boiled it for 18 minutes, near sea level. Try it.


The Chinese at least draw on engineers for their political class.

I know. That\'s embarassing. Muslim terrorist bombers are often
educated as engineers.

So it goes. They don\'t have prospects at home. Islamic terrorism was
invented in its present form while Sayyid Qutb was at school in
Colorado Springs.

--
Les Cargill

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 5:32:26 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 28/7/22 11:55, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 11:07:41 AM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 27/7/22 21:42, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 6:50:13 PM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 10:19:01 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
On 7/19/2022 7:17 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 19/7/22 11:28, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 5:28:15 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:

A person acumulating a billion dollars worth of something (stock
shares, real estate, bitcoins) isn\'t inflationary unless he turns it
all into cash and empties the shelves at all the WalMarts and Costcos
around, and orders all the available refrigerators and pizzas in the
country.

Whereas sending millions of people $2000 checks does those things.

John Larkin can\'t get it into his head that Keynesian pump priming is a device to get an economy out of recession.

What actually happened is that those who didn\'t have spare cash (perhaps
because their cafe had no customers) went and spent it on something at
the local homewares store, so all the extra money went straight into the
pockets of folk who own big retail chains - Walmart, or Harvey Normal in
Australia. I.e. people who were already billionaires.

Who spent most of it on paying their employees and their suppliers- big retail chains run on tight margins. If you turn over enough money you can still make lots of money out of tight margin.

Ahhhhahahha look mummy, someone who still believes in trickle-down!
(Crowd gathers, points and laughs).

Trickle-down was Reagan\'s favourite fallacy. Keynesian pump-priming is quite a bit older, and actually works, not that any monetarist economist can actually believe it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetarism

The money that sticks to the hands of people who run Walmart or Harvey Norman doesn\'t trickle down, but with low margin high volume businesses most of the money going through their tills does get recirculated.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney