OT: Dimmable CFL

[N_Cook]

Someone asked me and I don't know. Do they dim quantised or continuous, eg
1/2, 1/4, 1/8 with an existing lamp dimmer control, do they flicker on lower
setting? what colour do they emit at (if possible) 10 percent of full
rating? At 10 percent is overall power consumption more than an incandescent
at 10 percent? . Comfortable pinkish /orange at that level for conventional
bulb 100W run at 10W or so.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Someone asked me and I don't know. Do they dim quantised
or continuous, eg 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 with an existing lamp dimmer
control, do they flicker on lower settings? What colour do they
emit at (if possible) 10 percent of full rating? At 10 percent is
overall power consumption more than an incandescent at 10
percent? Comfortable pinkish /orange at that level for a
conventional bulb 100W run at 10W or so.

You sure ask a lot of questions for someone from Jersey.

Several years ago I bought a GE dimmable CFL, which I never installed.
(Still sitting there.)

What do you mean by a "conventional" dimmer" -- a rheostat? Once you get
below a certain voltage, the lamp will shut off, whether or not it "dims".

The common type of dimmer in the US uses PWM. The Scottish-invented X10 is
the best example of this design. The X10 has 255 levels, but the GE dimmable
CFL works with only the first top 10 or so. The light gets dimmer, then goes
out abruptly. You don't have the range available with incandescent lamps.

I don't remember the color changing at all. It's controlled by the laws of
quantum mechanics, not the line voltage, so it shouldn't change. I don't
remember it flickering, either.

As for power savings... You can't meaningfully compare tungsten lamps
running at x% with fluorescent lamps running at x%.Tungsten lamps get less
efficient (that is, the percentage of electricity they convert into
/visible/ light drops) as the voltage drops. If you "always" dim a
particular incandescent light, you should replace it with a smaller lamp you
don't need to dim. This will use less electricity.

(If this isn't clear... A 100W bulb running at 50W produces less light than
a 50W bulb.)

By the way, tungsten-halogen lamps should not be dimmed "just a bit". If the
filament runs at a temperature slightly below the point at which the halgoen
reaction starts, the bulb will burn out prematurely. (I've seen this.)
Halogen bulbs should be dimmed "substantially".

 

[PeterD]

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 05:10:02 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

Someone asked me and I don't know. Do they dim quantised
or continuous, eg 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 with an existing lamp dimmer
control, do they flicker on lower settings? What colour do they
emit at (if possible) 10 percent of full rating? At 10 percent is
overall power consumption more than an incandescent at 10
percent? Comfortable pinkish /orange at that level for a
conventional bulb 100W run at 10W or so.

You sure ask a lot of questions for someone from Jersey.

Several years ago I bought a GE dimmable CFL, which I never installed.
(Still sitting there.)

What do you mean by a "conventional" dimmer" -- a rheostat? Once you get
below a certain voltage, the lamp will shut off, whether or not it "dims".

Was researching this the other day. The makers of 'dimmable' CFLs
recommend only certain dimmers (PWM), and do not recommend other
systems based on older technology.

The common type of dimmer in the US uses PWM. The Scottish-invented X10 is
the best example of this design. The X10 has 255 levels, but the GE dimmable
CFL works with only the first top 10 or so. The light gets dimmer, then goes
out abruptly. You don't have the range available with incandescent lamps.

I don't remember the color changing at all. It's controlled by the laws of
quantum mechanics

Since color is based on the phospor's visiable light spectrum, I doubt
that will change much at all...

 

[GregS]

In article <lk24c5l3adofdka4u45vf4olsihaff5bha@4ax.com>, PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 05:10:02 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

Someone asked me and I don't know. Do they dim quantised
or continuous, eg 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 with an existing lamp dimmer
control, do they flicker on lower settings? What colour do they
emit at (if possible) 10 percent of full rating? At 10 percent is
overall power consumption more than an incandescent at 10
percent? Comfortable pinkish /orange at that level for a
conventional bulb 100W run at 10W or so.

You sure ask a lot of questions for someone from Jersey.

Several years ago I bought a GE dimmable CFL, which I never installed.
(Still sitting there.)

What do you mean by a "conventional" dimmer" -- a rheostat? Once you get
below a certain voltage, the lamp will shut off, whether or not it "dims".

Was researching this the other day. The makers of 'dimmable' CFLs
recommend only certain dimmers (PWM), and do not recommend other
systems based on older technology.


The common type of dimmer in the US uses PWM. The Scottish-invented X10 is
the best example of this design. The X10 has 255 levels, but the GE dimmable
CFL works with only the first top 10 or so. The light gets dimmer, then goes
out abruptly. You don't have the range available with incandescent lamps.

I don't remember the color changing at all. It's controlled by the laws of
quantum mechanics

Since color is based on the phospor's visiable light spectrum, I doubt
that will change much at all...

Many years ago, probably 8-9 years, I converted the 500 watt halogen pole light
to 100 watt equiv. CFL drawing 23 watts or so. I used the same dimmer. The CFL was $20 at
the store. It worked great. The color temperature was very
good in that it appeared more halogen than halogen.
Many CFL's take some time to gain brightness as it
heats. On a lower setting it will take longer. It will go
to minimum brightness after setting to a higher level
then reducing. I saw no change in color temperature
with brightness, but color temperature may will
vary on warm up.

greg

 

[D Yuniskis]

N_Cook wrote:

Someone asked me and I don't know. Do they dim quantised or continuous, eg
1/2, 1/4, 1/8 with an existing lamp dimmer control, do they flicker on lower
setting? what colour do they emit at (if possible) 10 percent of full
rating? At 10 percent is overall power consumption more than an incandescent
at 10 percent? . Comfortable pinkish /orange at that level for conventional
bulb 100W run at 10W or so.

The (dimmable) CFL's sold here (US) are not really comparable
to incandescents. Their "briteness range" is probably something
like 60% to 100% corresponding to 20% to 100% of the range of a
"traditional" dimmer. Within that operating range, their
output *appears* to be continuously variable (i.e., no noticeable
steps in intensity)

Color temperature is largely unchanged over that range.

Intensity varies with time as the lamps take a while to
get up to operating temperature (?).

At the dimmer's lowest setting, the lamps don't appear to start
at all (at least not in any realistic time frame).

Our (personal) experience has found them to be very disappointing.
We've switched back to incandescents in all of the dimmer
applications in the house as it is just not possible to get
a very *low* level of light out of the CFL's.

HTH

 

[N_Cook]

D Yuniskis <not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote in message
news:h9uhpq$32o$1@aioe.org...

N_Cook wrote:
Someone asked me and I don't know. Do they dim quantised or continuous,
eg
1/2, 1/4, 1/8 with an existing lamp dimmer control, do they flicker on
lower
setting? what colour do they emit at (if possible) 10 percent of full
rating? At 10 percent is overall power consumption more than an
incandescent
at 10 percent? . Comfortable pinkish /orange at that level for
conventional
bulb 100W run at 10W or so.

The (dimmable) CFL's sold here (US) are not really comparable
to incandescents. Their "briteness range" is probably something
like 60% to 100% corresponding to 20% to 100% of the range of a
"traditional" dimmer. Within that operating range, their
output *appears* to be continuously variable (i.e., no noticeable
steps in intensity)

Color temperature is largely unchanged over that range.

Intensity varies with time as the lamps take a while to
get up to operating temperature (?).

At the dimmer's lowest setting, the lamps don't appear to start
at all (at least not in any realistic time frame).

Our (personal) experience has found them to be very disappointing.
We've switched back to incandescents in all of the dimmer
applications in the house as it is just not possible to get
a very *low* level of light out of the CFL's.

HTH

pwehaps for a fully dimmable situation you have to buy dimmer and bulb as
one package, 50 percent dimming is not what this person is after. Looks as
though they will have to stay with incandescents for that reason and they
like the orange/yellow/pink colouration at low levels

 

[D Yuniskis]

N_Cook wrote:

D Yuniskis <not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote in message
news:h9uhpq$32o$1@aioe.org...
N_Cook wrote:
Someone asked me and I don't know. Do they dim quantised or continuous,
eg
1/2, 1/4, 1/8 with an existing lamp dimmer control, do they flicker on
lower
setting? what colour do they emit at (if possible) 10 percent of full
rating? At 10 percent is overall power consumption more than an
incandescent
at 10 percent? . Comfortable pinkish /orange at that level for
conventional
bulb 100W run at 10W or so.
The (dimmable) CFL's sold here (US) are not really comparable
to incandescents. Their "briteness range" is probably something
like 60% to 100% corresponding to 20% to 100% of the range of a
"traditional" dimmer. Within that operating range, their
output *appears* to be continuously variable (i.e., no noticeable
steps in intensity)

Color temperature is largely unchanged over that range.

Intensity varies with time as the lamps take a while to
get up to operating temperature (?).

At the dimmer's lowest setting, the lamps don't appear to start
at all (at least not in any realistic time frame).

Our (personal) experience has found them to be very disappointing.
We've switched back to incandescents in all of the dimmer
applications in the house as it is just not possible to get
a very *low* level of light out of the CFL's.

HTH


pwehaps for a fully dimmable situation you have to buy dimmer and bulb as

Dunno. We certainly aren't going to go through the house
replacing all of our "dimmers" (each with a "three way"
switch built in) just to accommodate CFL's. Presumably,
someone will "fix" this problem in the future...

one package, 50 percent dimming is not what this person is after. Looks as
though they will have to stay with incandescents for that reason and they
like the orange/yellow/pink colouration at low levels

Yup, that is the approach we have taken. Our lights are
placed such that on the lowest dimmer setting, there is
*just* enough light to see the general contents of the
room when it is pitch black outdoors. I.e., perfect
for waking up in the middle of the night and *not*
wanting to shock your eyes with an overly bright light
(the CFLs at their lowest visible setting are *way*
too bright for this purpose). This is ideal for house
guests who might be unfamiliar with the layout of the house
and who could benefit from our leaving the lights
"on, dim" at bedtime.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <h9v1rk$rer$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

pwehaps for a fully dimmable situation you have to buy dimmer and bulb
as one package, 50 percent dimming is not what this person is after.
Looks as though they will have to stay with incandescents for that
reason and they like the orange/yellow/pink colouration at low levels

I have dimmable fluorescents lighting my kitchen worktops which required
special (expensive) ballasts. The actual dimmer control just handles low
volt DC. They work beautifully giving near the same range as incandescent.
So my guess is dimming CFLs via a standard dimmer is going to be a cludge.
Think to do the job properly without adding wiring would need special CFLs
and a special dimmer which sent control signals via the wiring.

--
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <h9v282$j8p$1@aioe.org>,
D Yuniskis <not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:

one package, 50 percent dimming is not what this person is after.
Looks as though they will have to stay with incandescents for that
reason and they like the orange/yellow/pink colouration at low levels

Yup, that is the approach we have taken. Our lights are
placed such that on the lowest dimmer setting, there is
*just* enough light to see the general contents of the
room when it is pitch black outdoors. I.e., perfect
for waking up in the middle of the night and *not*
wanting to shock your eyes with an overly bright light
(the CFLs at their lowest visible setting are *way*
too bright for this purpose). This is ideal for house
guests who might be unfamiliar with the layout of the house
and who could benefit from our leaving the lights
"on, dim" at bedtime.

Don't think you've quite got your head round the idea of CFLs - to save
energy. ;-)

--
*Always drink upstream from the herd *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Meat Plow]

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 08:38:06 +0100, "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk>wrote:

D Yuniskis <not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote in message
news:h9uhpq$32o$1@aioe.org...
N_Cook wrote:
Someone asked me and I don't know. Do they dim quantised or continuous,
eg
1/2, 1/4, 1/8 with an existing lamp dimmer control, do they flicker on
lower
setting? what colour do they emit at (if possible) 10 percent of full
rating? At 10 percent is overall power consumption more than an
incandescent
at 10 percent? . Comfortable pinkish /orange at that level for
conventional
bulb 100W run at 10W or so.

The (dimmable) CFL's sold here (US) are not really comparable
to incandescents. Their "briteness range" is probably something
like 60% to 100% corresponding to 20% to 100% of the range of a
"traditional" dimmer. Within that operating range, their
output *appears* to be continuously variable (i.e., no noticeable
steps in intensity)

Color temperature is largely unchanged over that range.

Intensity varies with time as the lamps take a while to
get up to operating temperature (?).

At the dimmer's lowest setting, the lamps don't appear to start
at all (at least not in any realistic time frame).

Our (personal) experience has found them to be very disappointing.
We've switched back to incandescents in all of the dimmer
applications in the house as it is just not possible to get
a very *low* level of light out of the CFL's.

HTH


pwehaps for a fully dimmable situation you have to buy dimmer and bulb as
one package, 50 percent dimming is not what this person is after. Looks as
though they will have to stay with incandescents for that reason and they
like the orange/yellow/pink colouration at low levels

I see LED lighting being the next generation in home lighting and CFL
not lasting except in legacy application.

 

[D Yuniskis]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article <h9v282$j8p$1@aioe.org>,
D Yuniskis <not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:
one package, 50 percent dimming is not what this person is after.
Looks as though they will have to stay with incandescents for that
reason and they like the orange/yellow/pink colouration at low levels

Yup, that is the approach we have taken. Our lights are
placed such that on the lowest dimmer setting, there is
*just* enough light to see the general contents of the
room when it is pitch black outdoors. I.e., perfect
for waking up in the middle of the night and *not*
wanting to shock your eyes with an overly bright light
(the CFLs at their lowest visible setting are *way*
too bright for this purpose). This is ideal for house
guests who might be unfamiliar with the layout of the house
and who could benefit from our leaving the lights
"on, dim" at bedtime.

Don't think you've quite got your head round the idea of CFLs - to save
energy. ;-)

I can "save energy" by turning all the lights *off* (!)
but that wouldn't be a very pleasant way to live. :>
CFLs that only dim to half way is just as unpleasant
(in our application).

We'll wait for the problem to be "fixed" properly as
our lighting needs are pretty inconsequential (since
25% of the wall space in the rooms with these lights
is *glass*).

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <h9vt5b$rk7$1@aioe.org>,
D Yuniskis <not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:

Don't think you've quite got your head round the idea of CFLs - to save
energy. ;-)

I can "save energy" by turning all the lights *off* (!)
but that wouldn't be a very pleasant way to live. :
CFLs that only dim to half way is just as unpleasant
(in our application).

Dimming tungsten is horribly inefficient. Better to have smaller lights on
a second circuit.

We'll wait for the problem to be "fixed" properly as
our lighting needs are pretty inconsequential (since
25% of the wall space in the rooms with these lights
is *glass*).

No night time where you live? ;-)

--
*If I throw a stick, will you leave?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[D Yuniskis]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article <h9vt5b$rk7$1@aioe.org>,
D Yuniskis <not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:
Don't think you've quite got your head round the idea of CFLs - to save
energy. ;-)

I can "save energy" by turning all the lights *off* (!)
but that wouldn't be a very pleasant way to live. :
CFLs that only dim to half way is just as unpleasant
(in our application).

Dimming tungsten is horribly inefficient. Better to have smaller lights on
a second circuit.

And how do you justify the costs of having a licensed electrician
come in and add *those* second *circuits*? Followed by the drywall man
to clean up the (cosmetic) mess he leaves? Followed by the painter?
Easier to spend that money inefficently heating tungsten for the
next five (?) years -- until a genuine dimmable CFL comes along! :>

We'll wait for the problem to be "fixed" properly as
our lighting needs are pretty inconsequential (since
25% of the wall space in the rooms with these lights
is *glass*).

No night time where you live? ;-)

Activities at night either want subdued lighting (e.g.,
relaxing, listening to music, watching TV, etc.) *or*
take place in locations where lights are never dimmed
and, thus, use regular CFLs. For example, working at
the computer, cooking dinner (kinda hard to do this
in "dim light" :> ), reading, etc.

We had considered putting smaller (wattage) lamps in
those locations but then you are always stuck with
too little light.

It won't be long before the market's complaints about
dimmable CFLs cause manufacturers to come up with a viable
"screw in" replacement for incandescents with *conventional*
dimmers.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Easier to spend that money inefficently heating tungsten
for the next five (?) years -- until a genuine dimmable CFL
comes along! :

I don't think we'll ever have a "full range" dimmable CFL. At least, not one
that didn't badly flicker at lower levels.

 

[D Yuniskis]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

Easier to spend that money inefficently heating tungsten
for the next five (?) years -- until a genuine dimmable CFL
comes along! :

I don't think we'll ever have a "full range" dimmable CFL. At least, not one
that didn't badly flicker at lower levels.

Why not? With enough smarts, you could excite it at 2 or 3 times
the line frequency -- but very low duty cycles...? I think it
is just a question of waiting for the electronics/magnetics to
get small enough on a practical scale.

E.g., years ago, the idea of a 500W, multiple output power supply
fitting in a ~30 cu in volume would have been unheard of... yet
now you can buy them for the price of an expensive lunch! :-/

 

[GregS]

In article <h9vt5b$rk7$1@aioe.org>, D Yuniskis <not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article <h9v282$j8p$1@aioe.org>,
D Yuniskis <not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:
one package, 50 percent dimming is not what this person is after.
Looks as though they will have to stay with incandescents for that
reason and they like the orange/yellow/pink colouration at low levels

Yup, that is the approach we have taken. Our lights are
placed such that on the lowest dimmer setting, there is
*just* enough light to see the general contents of the
room when it is pitch black outdoors. I.e., perfect
for waking up in the middle of the night and *not*
wanting to shock your eyes with an overly bright light
(the CFLs at their lowest visible setting are *way*
too bright for this purpose). This is ideal for house
guests who might be unfamiliar with the layout of the house
and who could benefit from our leaving the lights
"on, dim" at bedtime.

Don't think you've quite got your head round the idea of CFLs - to save
energy. ;-)

I can "save energy" by turning all the lights *off* (!)
but that wouldn't be a very pleasant way to live. :
CFLs that only dim to half way is just as unpleasant
(in our application).

We'll wait for the problem to be "fixed" properly as
our lighting needs are pretty inconsequential (since
25% of the wall space in the rooms with these lights
is *glass*).

I would say at least 1/10 the brightness or more when I have
done CFL dimming. For dim lighting the choice is obvious. Install
a separate led lighting system. It can stay on all the time
and have battery backup.

greg

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 9/30/2009 6:50 AM Meat Plow spake thus:

I see LED lighting being the next generation in home lighting and CFL
not lasting except in legacy application.

Maybe not: check out this article (this was posted in some newsgroup I
read or other, not sure if it was here):

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/optoelectronics/the-leds-dark-secret

The LED's Dark Secret

Solid-state lighting won't supplant the lightbulb until it can
overcome the mysterious malady known as "droop"


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

 

[GregS]

In article <4ac4ea8c$0$11302$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>, David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 9/30/2009 6:50 AM Meat Plow spake thus:

I see LED lighting being the next generation in home lighting and CFL
not lasting except in legacy application.

Maybe not: check out this article (this was posted in some newsgroup I
read or other, not sure if it was here):

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/optoelectronics/the-leds-dark-secre
t

The LED's Dark Secret

Solid-state lighting won't supplant the lightbulb until it can
overcome the mysterious malady known as "droop"

They should have said droop because of temperature rise.
You need proper design.

greg

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 10/1/2009 11:07 AM GregS spake thus:

In article <4ac4ea8c$0$11302$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>, David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:
On 9/30/2009 6:50 AM Meat Plow spake thus:

I see LED lighting being the next generation in home lighting and CFL
not lasting except in legacy application.

Maybe not: check out this article (this was posted in some
newsgroup I read or other, not sure if it was here):

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/optoelectronics/the-leds-dark-secret

The LED's Dark Secret

Solid-state lighting won't supplant the lightbulb until it can
overcome the mysterious malady known as "droop"

They should have said droop because of temperature rise.
You need proper design.

Well, yes, if by "proper design" you mean "a type of LED that ain't been
invented yet".


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

 

[GregS]

In article <ha2r3g$54f$2@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com (GregS) wrote:

In article <4ac4ea8c$0$11302$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>, David
Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:
On 9/30/2009 6:50 AM Meat Plow spake thus:

I see LED lighting being the next generation in home lighting and CFL
not lasting except in legacy application.

Maybe not: check out this article (this was posted in some newsgroup I
read or other, not sure if it was here):

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/optoelectronics/the-leds-dark-secr
e
t

The LED's Dark Secret

Solid-state lighting won't supplant the lightbulb until it can
overcome the mysterious malady known as "droop"




They should have said droop because of temperature rise.
You need proper design.

Its not mysterious.
The small leds as shown in the article are easy to overdrive
and get very fast droop, and then permanent droop.
They even change color as they start to burn up.

The specs don't usualy say lm/watt
they give lumens at some wattage, usually 1.
If you decrease current, you get more lm/watt of course.