OT: DARPA Robot Car Challenge

Glenn Ashmore · Mar 22, 2004

I don't think there is any way to get the system really changed. It is
kind of like the "Paper Work Reduction Act". I do the network support
for one of the "procurement agencies" that serve the local AF logistics
command and got a walk through of the process.

Say a maintenance crew in the C-5 hanger needs 5 new sets of box end
wrenches. They make up a requisition for purchacing. Purchacing makes
up a 18 page RFP describing a set of box end wrenches and submits it to
the three local "procurement agencies" who in turn check the market for
the closest fit to the specifications in the RFP and responds with a 25
page proposal noting any exceptions. Purchasing then reviews the
proposals and selects one. The selected procurement agency" then calls
Snap-On or goes to Home Despot. Net result is a $60 set of wrenches
being billed out at $600.

Needless to say, my client is among the best paying I have.

Winfield Hill wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote...

$2B in contract termination costs. The "acquisition workforce" is a
*prime* Rumsfeld target to be eliminated in 2005 base realignment and
closure, and this is why it's important that Bush be re-elected-
Rumsfeld is going to send them packing as well as eliminate their
legacy of pathetically overcomplicated, counter-productive, bureaucracy
expanding acquisition regulations- all will be gone, and good riddance.

I think the Democrats would be just as happy to see these folks gone.
There were dramatic changes (improvements) in the procurement systems
of the non-DOD departments during the Clinton administration. In many
cases an individual needing something, and having room in his budget,
would simply make the purchase from industry, without the procurement
system involved (this is something I have personal knowledge of - my
DOD knowledge for the Clinton years being limited).

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Charles Edmondson · Mar 23, 2004

Fred Bloggs wrote:

John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Fred Bloggs <nospam@nospam.com
wrote (in <405D831E.9010001@nospam.com&gt about 'OT: DARPA Robot Car
Challenge', on Sun, 21 Mar 2004:

John Woodgate wrote:

You might read the write-up of the 'Sandstorm' project in 'Scientific
American' March 2004. It recounts quite a number of crises that simply
should not have happened (notably 'short-circuits') if the team had
been
employing sensible standards of workmanship.

Most of the entrants failed at the start line or very shortly after,
and
not because of complex failures in the high-tech stuff. This, too,
suggests an inadequate level of competence. Most entrants in 'Robot
Wars' (UK version of 'Battlebots') seem to be far more reliable, under
conditions at least as harsh as those at the start line.

I expect the 2005 competition (if there is one) to give much better
results. Most people 'learn big' from big mistakes.

Oh they do? You should have seen our PBS documentary on the
development engineering team at JPL who worked on the Rovers- totally
screwed up, airhead riffraff. Anything short of catastrophic
malfunction in those very poorly engineered kluges is an accident.

Well, I was being 'charitable', a word that is unlikely in the extreme
to be in your vocabulary. Nevertheless, I hope they DO learn.

The riffraff I observed were all well into/past mid-life, they are
beyond hope- career workfare slobs is what they were, an overwhelming
aura of sloppiness in appearance and work habits, laziness, apathy, and
practiced ostentatious display of faux enthusiasm- we should shoot them
into space- one way.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Where do I sign up for my launch date!

--
Charlie
--
Edmondson Engineering
Unique Solutions to Unusual Problems

Jim Thompson · Mar 23, 2004

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:31:54 GMT, Fred Bloggs <nospam@nospam.com>
wrote:

[snip]

The riffraff I observed were all well into/past mid-life, they are
beyond hope- career workfare slobs is what they were, an overwhelming
aura of sloppiness in appearance and work habits, laziness, apathy, and
practiced ostentatious display of faux enthusiasm- we should shoot them
into space- one way.

"well into/past mid-life" doesn't make you incompetent (). My
experience would seem to indicate that these sort of people are *born*
incompetent, which is why they work for military contractors.

() I'm personally *well past* mid-life. But I do believe that I am
quite competent (except for a personality weakness where I find a need
to trash lefties

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Throughout the history of this great country there have actually
been people of only two political persuasions: fighters and yellow-
bellies. WE MUST NOT LET THE LATTER PREVAIL IN THE NEXT ELECTION!

Winfield Hill · Mar 23, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote...

quite competent (except for a personality weakness where
I find a need to trash lefties

We should save these little admissions on our hard drives.

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

Jim Thompson · Mar 23, 2004

On 22 Mar 2004 17:31:55 -0800, Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote...

quite competent (except for a personality weakness where
I find a need to trash lefties

We should save these little admissions on our hard drives.

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Throughout the history of this great country there have actually
been people of only two political persuasions: fighters and yellow-
bellies. WE MUST NOT LET THE LATTER PREVAIL IN THE NEXT ELECTION!

Winfield Hill · Mar 23, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote...

Don't miss the chance... make sure you do so ;-)

Nah....

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

Spehro Pefhany · Mar 23, 2004

On 22 Mar 2004 18:24:30 -0800, the renowned Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote...

Don't miss the chance... make sure you do so ;-)

Nah....

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

Speaking of politics, you fellows can check out who your neighbors are
supporting (financially).... gives you the name, address, radius from
a specific address, and how much they contributed:

http://www.fundrace.org/neighbors.php

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

John Woodgate · Mar 23, 2004

I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote (in <c3o42b01g8m@drn.newsguy.com&gt

about 'OT: DARPA Robot Car Challenge', on Mon, 22 Mar 2004:

Jim Thompson wrote...

quite competent (except for a personality weakness where
I find a need to trash lefties

We should save these little admissions on our hard drives.

I have, I have!

Mind you, Jim gets 20 brownie points for his realism. Now if we could
get BS to admit a similar trait, directed at rabid righties .... Oops!
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Winfield Hill · Mar 23, 2004

Spehro Pefhany wrote...

Speaking of politics, you fellows can check out who your neighbors
are supporting (financially).... gives you the name, address,
radius from a specific address, and how much they contributed:
http://www.fundrace.org/neighbors.php

Tried it on myself, it incorrectly failed to show any donation.

Hmm, I see one neighbor who gave G W Bush a total of $2500,
isn't there a $2000 personal limit by law? Does that apply
twice separately to the nomination and the election campaigns?

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

Bill Sloman · Mar 23, 2004

John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message news:<SceRREBzF+XAFwB2@jmwa.demon.co.uk>...

I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill
Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote (in <c3o42b01g8m@drn.newsguy.com&gt
about 'OT: DARPA Robot Car Challenge', on Mon, 22 Mar 2004:
Jim Thompson wrote...

quite competent (except for a personality weakness where
I find a need to trash lefties

We should save these little admissions on our hard drives.

I have, I have!

Mind you, Jim gets 20 brownie points for his realism. Now if we could
get BS to admit a similar trait, directed at rabid righties .... Oops!

It's there all right, but it is a pathological urge to correct
misinformation, rather than right-wing political opinions as such. If
we had equally mis-informed left-wingers in this forum I'd probably be
seen as a rabid centre-ist.

It's been part of my character for a long time - the first published
manifestation is Sloman, A.W. "Comment", Review of Scientific
Instruments, vol. 43, page 356 (1972), a comment on a paper on
photomultiplier nonlinearity, and there have been a few more since
then, including one in this month's Review of Scientific Instruments
which I haven't seen yet, but for which I've already received a
reprint request!

------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

John Woodgate · Mar 23, 2004

I read in sci.electronics.design that Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote (in <7c584d27.0403230430.5dd56cbf@posting.google.com&gt

about 'OT:
DARPA Robot Car Challenge', on Tue, 23 Mar 2004:

If we
had equally mis-informed left-wingers

RSW?

in this forum I'd probably be seen
as a rabid centre-ist.

You can't be: we've already got a claimant to that description. I think
we can partially accept it.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Jim Thompson · Mar 23, 2004

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 03:11:20 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On 22 Mar 2004 18:24:30 -0800, the renowned Winfield Hill
Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote...

Don't miss the chance... make sure you do so ;-)

Nah....

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

Speaking of politics, you fellows can check out who your neighbors are
supporting (financially).... gives you the name, address, radius from
a specific address, and how much they contributed:

http://www.fundrace.org/neighbors.php

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Interesting. The gal who helped me save the park contributed to
Edwards :-( (I guess I should explain... a developer wanted to build
townhouses on the north edge of our park. After six months of my
organized neighborhood's harassment Phoenix decided to buy the land
and extend the park

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Throughout the history of this great country there have actually
been people of only two political persuasions: fighters and yellow-
bellies. WE MUST NOT LET THE LATTER PREVAIL IN THE NEXT ELECTION!

Bill Sloman · Mar 24, 2004

John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message news:<pBrPGJDZdDYAFwuW@jmwa.demon.co.uk>...

I read in sci.electronics.design that Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org
wrote (in <7c584d27.0403230430.5dd56cbf@posting.google.com&gt about 'OT:
DARPA Robot Car Challenge', on Tue, 23 Mar 2004:
If we had equally mis-informed left-wingers

RSW?

He's a libertarian, which isn't quite the same thing as a left-winger.
Furthermore he's perfectly rational and mostly seems to know his
facts, so I don't have any motivation to go after him for posting
mis-information.

in this forum I'd probably be seen
as a rabid centre-ist.

You can't be: we've already got a claimant to that description. I think
we can partially accept it.

I know that John S. Dyson claims to be a centre-ist, but John S. Dyson
would be the only member of the group who would see John S. Dyson as
anything other than a fervent right-winger. On this - as on many other
subjects - he is woefully ill-formed.

Your "partially" suggests that you agree with me on this point.

-------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Dave Cole · Mar 24, 2004

in article hd8l50db9nhinpkq7jrd8cq36sr46f05an@4ax.com, Jeff Liebermann at
jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us wrote on 3/19/04 01:49:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:23:37 +0000, Terry Pinnell
terrypinDELETE@dial.pipex.com> wrote:

Pretty disappointing results from that Million Dollar Grand Challenge.

I once had to design
something with virgin and state-o-de-art technology. Nothing worked,
everything broke, and everyone was questioning our competence. The
2nd incantation was better, but far from perfect (or even useable).
^^^^^^^^^^^

Are you a good witch, or are you a bad witch? ;-)

What meaning did you intend?

Perhaps you intended to say'incarnation' or 'instantiation'

See below for NetDict's interpretations (from several references).

_
Incantation \In`can*ta"tion\, n. [L. incantatio, fr. incantare
to chant a magic formula over one: cf. F. incantation. See
{Enchant}.]
1. The act or process of using formulas sung or spoken, with
occult ceremonies, for the purpose of raising spirits,
producing enchantment, or affecting other magical results;
enchantment. ``Mysterious ceremony and incantation.''
--Burke.

2. A formula of words used as above.
_
incantation
n : a ritual recitation of words or sounds believed to have a
magical effect [syn: {conjuration}]
_
incantation n. Any particularly arbitrary or obscure command that one
must mutter at a system to attain a desired result. Not used of
passwords or other explicit security features. Especially used of tricks
that are so poorly documented that they must be learned from a {wizard}.
"This compiler normally locates initialized data in the data segment,
but if you {mutter} the right incantation they will be forced into text
space."
_
incantation

Any particularly arbitrary or obscure command that one must
mutter at a system to attain a desired result. Not used of
passwords or other explicit security features. Especially
used of tricks that are so poorly documented that they must be
learned from a {wizard}. "This compiler normally locates
initialised data in the data segment, but if you {mutter} the
right incantation they will be forced into text space."

Dave Cole

John Woodgate · Mar 24, 2004

I read in sci.electronics.design that Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote (in <7c584d27.0403231419.7134adac@posting.google.com&gt

about 'OT:
DARPA Robot Car Challenge', on Tue, 23 Mar 2004:

John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message news:<pBrPGJDZdDY
AFwuW@jmwa.demon.co.uk>...
I read in sci.electronics.design that Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org
wrote (in <7c584d27.0403230430.5dd56cbf@posting.google.com&gt about 'OT:
DARPA Robot Car Challenge', on Tue, 23 Mar 2004:
If we had equally mis-informed left-wingers

RSW?

He's a libertarian, which isn't quite the same thing as a left-winger.
Furthermore he's perfectly rational and mostly seems to know his
facts, so I don't have any motivation to go after him for posting
mis-information.

He wants to kill all the rich people! Doesn't sound rational to me,
although much of his other stuff is rational.

in this forum I'd probably be seen
as a rabid centre-ist.

You can't be: we've already got a claimant to that description. I think
we can partially accept it.

I know that John S. Dyson claims to be a centre-ist, but John S. Dyson
would be the only member of the group who would see John S. Dyson as
anything other than a fervent right-winger. On this - as on many other
subjects - he is woefully ill-formed.

Your "partially" suggests that you agree with me on this point.

I agreed with part of the phrase 'rabid centre-ist'.

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

John Woodgate · Mar 24, 2004

I read in sci.electronics.design that Dave Cole
<davidwcole@earthlink.net> wrote (in <BC862580.40E2%davidwcole@earthlink
..net&gt

about 'OT: DARPA Robot Car Challenge', on Tue, 23 Mar 2004:

in article hd8l50db9nhinpkq7jrd8cq36sr46f05an@4ax.com, Jeff Liebermann
at jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us wrote on 3/19/04 01:49:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:23:37 +0000, Terry Pinnell
terrypinDELETE@dial.pipex.com> wrote:

Pretty disappointing results from that Million Dollar Grand Challenge.

I once had to design
something with virgin and state-o-de-art technology. Nothing worked,
everything broke, and everyone was questioning our competence. The
2nd incantation was better, but far from perfect (or even useable).
^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you a good witch, or are you a bad witch? ;-)

What meaning did you intend?

I assume that the failure of the prototype was so utter that they
resorted to occult methods for the second try.(;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Bill Sloman · Mar 25, 2004

John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message news:<LhLHOdBaaTYAFwJG@jmwa.demon.co.uk>...

I read in sci.electronics.design that Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org
wrote (in <7c584d27.0403231419.7134adac@posting.google.com&gt about 'OT:
DARPA Robot Car Challenge', on Tue, 23 Mar 2004:
John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message news:<pBrPGJDZdDY
AFwuW@jmwa.demon.co.uk>...
I read in sci.electronics.design that Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org
wrote (in <7c584d27.0403230430.5dd56cbf@posting.google.com&gt about 'OT:
DARPA Robot Car Challenge', on Tue, 23 Mar 2004:
If we had equally mis-informed left-wingers

RSW?

He's a libertarian, which isn't quite the same thing as a left-winger.
Furthermore he's perfectly rational and mostly seems to know his
facts, so I don't have any motivation to go after him for posting
mis-information.

He wants to kill all the rich people! Doesn't sound rational to me,
although much of his other stuff is rational.

I've read some of those comments, and the tone echoes the socialist
set-pieces out of Robert Tressell's "The Ragged Trousered
Philanthropists".

http://www.marxists.org/archive/tressell/works/1914/ragged/index.htm

which didn't actually recommend killing the rich, but did take the
attitude that their riches had been accumulated by exploiting the
poor, and ought to be redistributed. Modern western European
socialists have a rather more detailed understanding of how the
economy works, and a much better understanding of how far they can
even up the distribution of wealth without killing the goose that
actually lays the golden eggs. RSW *is* American, and may well be as
ill-informed about modern socialism as many of the other American
contributors to s.e.d.

-----------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

John Woodgate · Mar 25, 2004

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote (in <iuk3609433avo264ithgngtd8qu0rk
q2so@4ax.com&gt

about 'OT: DARPA Robot Car Challenge', on Wed, 24 Mar
2004:

Well, actually, I do a fair job impersonating a werewolf.
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com/nooze/werewolf.txt It's a long story.
You don't wanna know.

What do you think about were-vampires?
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Paul Hovnanian P.E. · Mar 25, 2004

Winfield Hill wrote:

Paul Burridge wrote...

If they're only offering a lousy million bucks, then it's hardly
surprising. No serious team's going to emerge for that kind of
dough. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

The top teams were very serious, and spent many millions each on
their entries. Furthermore, you can be sure many will be back
next time with more advanced vehicles. The challenge was in fact
very difficult. Some commented they weren't sure they could drive
the course themselves.

The prize would likely not simply have been the $1M, but landing
a good position for a piece of DOD's future spending in this area,
which will be considerable, given the congressional mandate for
one-third of ground combat vehicles to operate unmanned by 2015.

Was the competition open to foreign entries?

There is some very interesting AI and robotics work going on. Its just
not in the USA.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto

aul@Hovnanian.com
note to spammers: a Washington State resident
------------------------------------------------------------------
A physicist is an atom's way of knowing about atoms.
-- George Wald

Ian Buckner · Mar 25, 2004

"John Woodgate" <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message
news:G+R0pTIzEeYAFwZB@jmwa.demon.co.uk...

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jeff Liebermann
jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote (in
iuk3609433avo264ithgngtd8qu0rk
q2so@4ax.com&gt about 'OT: DARPA Robot Car Challenge', on Wed, 24 Mar
2004:
Well, actually, I do a fair job impersonating a werewolf.
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com/nooze/werewolf.txt It's a long
story.
You don't wanna know.

What do you think about were-vampires?

Vampires? Where?

Regards
Ian

OT: DARPA Robot Car Challenge

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