OT: alcohol based perfume removal?...

[T]

Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash out. They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma. They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water. Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:26:22 PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 18. november 2021 kl. 22.18.51 UTC+1 skrev
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:48:12 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 18/11/2021 20.22, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:09:58 PM UTC-4, T wrote:
On 11/18/21 11:01, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 1:37:22 PM UTC-4, T wrote:
On 11/18/21 06:38, Rick C wrote:

Having asthma does not equate to being sensitive to perfumes.
There may be a correlation, but how strong?

I sincerely hope you or anyone you love ever get
sensitive. Your outlook will change dramatically.

My having the condition does not change the facts which you seem
to be exaggerating.

That is a good excuse for not giving a shit about
what harm your behavior causes your neighbors.

This is the sort of exaggeration I\'m referring to.


And I am not exaggerating. You need to watch helplessly
as someone you love gasps in terror trying to breath.
Or maybe have it happen to you.

You still can\'t respond to the actual statement I made.


Whatsoever you would have others do unto you, do
unto them. Have you ever heard of \"karma\"?

Here you have gone off the deep end casting me as someone who
creates problems for you. You\'ve lost it now.

The condition is very real. People like you who can\'t be rational
about it and only talk in terms of emotion should stay away from the
forefront or others will think we are all like you. Yes, it is real,
but it is psychosomatic. Doesn\'t make it less real.
It is not psychosomatic (caused or aggravated by a mental factor such as
internal conflict or stress). Anything you say about psychosomatic
illnesses is not relevant.

how can you rules out it is psychosomatic? the mind can do weird things,
and smells are already know to be powerful triggers of for example
memories
I can\'t speak for everyone, but in my case some of the chemicals in
perfumes act as neurotoxins, causing confusion, nausea and making my
eyes unable to focus. This has happened on occasions when I was unaware
of any smell but later discovered that an odourless \'air freshener\' had
been installed without my knowledge.

Where there is a psychological element, it is when I avoid perfumes I
can smell in case they contain substances that are toxic to me. I would
rather do that than wait to see if they make me ill. It\'s called
\'learning\'.

I had no idea you were affected so profoundly. Is there anything about this in the MSDS for the substances you are talking about?

--

Rick C.

--++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:26:22 PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 18. november 2021 kl. 22.18.51 UTC+1 skrev
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:48:12 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 18/11/2021 20.22, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:09:58 PM UTC-4, T wrote:
On 11/18/21 11:01, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 1:37:22 PM UTC-4, T wrote:
On 11/18/21 06:38, Rick C wrote:

Having asthma does not equate to being sensitive to perfumes.
There may be a correlation, but how strong?

I sincerely hope you or anyone you love ever get
sensitive. Your outlook will change dramatically.

My having the condition does not change the facts which you seem
to be exaggerating.

That is a good excuse for not giving a shit about
what harm your behavior causes your neighbors.

This is the sort of exaggeration I\'m referring to.


And I am not exaggerating. You need to watch helplessly
as someone you love gasps in terror trying to breath.
Or maybe have it happen to you.

You still can\'t respond to the actual statement I made.


Whatsoever you would have others do unto you, do
unto them. Have you ever heard of \"karma\"?

Here you have gone off the deep end casting me as someone who
creates problems for you. You\'ve lost it now.

The condition is very real. People like you who can\'t be rational
about it and only talk in terms of emotion should stay away from the
forefront or others will think we are all like you. Yes, it is real,
but it is psychosomatic. Doesn\'t make it less real.
It is not psychosomatic (caused or aggravated by a mental factor such as
internal conflict or stress). Anything you say about psychosomatic
illnesses is not relevant.

how can you rules out it is psychosomatic? the mind can do weird things,
and smells are already know to be powerful triggers of for example
memories
I can\'t speak for everyone, but in my case some of the chemicals in
perfumes act as neurotoxins, causing confusion, nausea and making my
eyes unable to focus. This has happened on occasions when I was unaware
of any smell but later discovered that an odourless \'air freshener\' had
been installed without my knowledge.

Where there is a psychological element, it is when I avoid perfumes I
can smell in case they contain substances that are toxic to me. I would
rather do that than wait to see if they make me ill. It\'s called
\'learning\'.

I had no idea you were affected so profoundly. Is there anything about this in the MSDS for the substances you are talking about?

--

Rick C.

--++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[amdx]

On 11/16/2021 11:06 PM, T wrote:

Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash  out.  They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma.   They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water.  Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T

I suggest you call the manufacturers of ODOBAN and ODOR-BAN and ask if

their product would help.

https://odoban.com/what-is-odoban/
https://www.janilink.com/shop/deodorizer-freshener/deodorizer-chemicals/odorban-odor-neutralizer/

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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[amdx]

On 11/16/2021 11:06 PM, T wrote:

Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash  out.  They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma.   They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water.  Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T

I suggest you call the manufacturers of ODOBAN and ODOR-BAN and ask if

their product would help.

https://odoban.com/what-is-odoban/
https://www.janilink.com/shop/deodorizer-freshener/deodorizer-chemicals/odorban-odor-neutralizer/

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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[amdx]

On 11/16/2021 11:06 PM, T wrote:

Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash  out.  They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma.   They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water.  Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T

I suggest you call the manufacturers of ODOBAN and ODOR-BAN and ask if

their product would help.

https://odoban.com/what-is-odoban/
https://www.janilink.com/shop/deodorizer-freshener/deodorizer-chemicals/odorban-odor-neutralizer/

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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[T]

On 11/18/21 13:58, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

how can you rules out it is psychosomatic? the mind can do weird things, and smells are already know to be
powerful triggers of for example memories

You research and test it.

Here you go:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25682122/

Assessment of cerebral blood flow in patients with multiple chemical
sensitivity using near-infrared spectroscopy--recovery after olfactory
stimulation: a case-control study


Abstract

Objectives: Multiple chemical sensitivity (MCS) is a chronic acquired
disorder characterized by non-specific symptoms in multiple organ
systems associated with exposure to odorous chemicals. We previously
observed significant activations in the prefrontal cortex (PFC) during
olfactory stimulation using several different odorants in patients with
MCS by near-infrared spectroscopy (NIRS) imaging. We also observed that
the patients with MCS did not adequately distinguish non-odorant in the
late stage of the repeated olfactory stimulation test. The sensory
recovery of the olfactory system in the patients with MCS may process
odors differently from healthy subjects after olfactory stimulation.

Methods: We examined the recovery process of regional cerebral blood
flow (rCBF) after olfactory stimulation in patients with MCS. NIRS
imaging was performed in 6 patients with MCS and in 6 controls. The
olfactory stimulation test was continuously repeated 10 times. The study
also included a subjective assessment of the physical and psychological
status and of the perception of irritating and hedonic odors.

Results: After olfactory stimulation, significant activations were
observed in the PFC of patients with MCS on both the right and left
sides compared with controls. The activations were specifically strong
in the orbitofrontal cortex (OFC). Compared with controls, autonomic
perception and feelings identification were poorer in patients with MCS.
OFC is associated with stimuli response and the representation of
preferences.

Conclusions: These results suggest that a past strong exposure to
hazardous chemicals activates the PFC during olfactory stimuli in
patients with MCS, and a strong activation in the OFC remains after the
stimuli.


Yup. It is real.

 

[T]

On 11/18/21 13:58, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

how can you rules out it is psychosomatic? the mind can do weird things, and smells are already know to be
powerful triggers of for example memories

You research and test it.

Here you go:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25682122/

Assessment of cerebral blood flow in patients with multiple chemical
sensitivity using near-infrared spectroscopy--recovery after olfactory
stimulation: a case-control study


Abstract

Objectives: Multiple chemical sensitivity (MCS) is a chronic acquired
disorder characterized by non-specific symptoms in multiple organ
systems associated with exposure to odorous chemicals. We previously
observed significant activations in the prefrontal cortex (PFC) during
olfactory stimulation using several different odorants in patients with
MCS by near-infrared spectroscopy (NIRS) imaging. We also observed that
the patients with MCS did not adequately distinguish non-odorant in the
late stage of the repeated olfactory stimulation test. The sensory
recovery of the olfactory system in the patients with MCS may process
odors differently from healthy subjects after olfactory stimulation.

Methods: We examined the recovery process of regional cerebral blood
flow (rCBF) after olfactory stimulation in patients with MCS. NIRS
imaging was performed in 6 patients with MCS and in 6 controls. The
olfactory stimulation test was continuously repeated 10 times. The study
also included a subjective assessment of the physical and psychological
status and of the perception of irritating and hedonic odors.

Results: After olfactory stimulation, significant activations were
observed in the PFC of patients with MCS on both the right and left
sides compared with controls. The activations were specifically strong
in the orbitofrontal cortex (OFC). Compared with controls, autonomic
perception and feelings identification were poorer in patients with MCS.
OFC is associated with stimuli response and the representation of
preferences.

Conclusions: These results suggest that a past strong exposure to
hazardous chemicals activates the PFC during olfactory stimuli in
patients with MCS, and a strong activation in the OFC remains after the
stimuli.


Yup. It is real.

 

[T]

On 11/19/21 15:22, Don Y wrote:

It sort of defeats the purpose of having an HE washer
but it\'s made a noticeable difference in skin irritation
for each of us.

Adding some vinegar to the rinse water will pull
out a lot of the leftover detergent.

 

[T]

On 11/19/21 15:22, Don Y wrote:

It sort of defeats the purpose of having an HE washer
but it\'s made a noticeable difference in skin irritation
for each of us.

Adding some vinegar to the rinse water will pull
out a lot of the leftover detergent.

 

[T]

On 11/18/21 13:58, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

how can you rules out it is psychosomatic? the mind can do weird things, and smells are already know to be
powerful triggers of for example memories

You research and test it.

Here you go:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25682122/

Assessment of cerebral blood flow in patients with multiple chemical
sensitivity using near-infrared spectroscopy--recovery after olfactory
stimulation: a case-control study


Abstract

Objectives: Multiple chemical sensitivity (MCS) is a chronic acquired
disorder characterized by non-specific symptoms in multiple organ
systems associated with exposure to odorous chemicals. We previously
observed significant activations in the prefrontal cortex (PFC) during
olfactory stimulation using several different odorants in patients with
MCS by near-infrared spectroscopy (NIRS) imaging. We also observed that
the patients with MCS did not adequately distinguish non-odorant in the
late stage of the repeated olfactory stimulation test. The sensory
recovery of the olfactory system in the patients with MCS may process
odors differently from healthy subjects after olfactory stimulation.

Methods: We examined the recovery process of regional cerebral blood
flow (rCBF) after olfactory stimulation in patients with MCS. NIRS
imaging was performed in 6 patients with MCS and in 6 controls. The
olfactory stimulation test was continuously repeated 10 times. The study
also included a subjective assessment of the physical and psychological
status and of the perception of irritating and hedonic odors.

Results: After olfactory stimulation, significant activations were
observed in the PFC of patients with MCS on both the right and left
sides compared with controls. The activations were specifically strong
in the orbitofrontal cortex (OFC). Compared with controls, autonomic
perception and feelings identification were poorer in patients with MCS.
OFC is associated with stimuli response and the representation of
preferences.

Conclusions: These results suggest that a past strong exposure to
hazardous chemicals activates the PFC during olfactory stimuli in
patients with MCS, and a strong activation in the OFC remains after the
stimuli.


Yup. It is real.

 

[Cydrome Leader]

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 11/18/21 14:32, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I am after getting other people chemicals out of
my cloths. I have tried stuff for hunters and
it does not work.

which product for hunters did you try?

Don\'t remember. They all gave a member of my family
asthma and skin rashes

Sounds like a family of wackos. No advice will help these folks.

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote:

On 11/16/2021 11:06 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash  out.  They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma.   They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water.  Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T

I suggest you call the manufacturers of ODOBAN and ODOR-BAN and ask if

their product would help.

https://odoban.com/what-is-odoban/
https://www.janilink.com/shop/deodorizer-freshener/deodorizer-chemicals/
https://odorban-odor-neutralizer/

Some of the so-called \'fresheners\' are just as bad as the perfumes for
triggering allergies.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote:

On 11/16/2021 11:06 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash  out.  They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma.   They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water.  Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T

I suggest you call the manufacturers of ODOBAN and ODOR-BAN and ask if

their product would help.

https://odoban.com/what-is-odoban/
https://www.janilink.com/shop/deodorizer-freshener/deodorizer-chemicals/
https://odorban-odor-neutralizer/

Some of the so-called \'fresheners\' are just as bad as the perfumes for
triggering allergies.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote:

On 11/16/2021 11:06 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash  out.  They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma.   They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water.  Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T

I suggest you call the manufacturers of ODOBAN and ODOR-BAN and ask if

their product would help.

https://odoban.com/what-is-odoban/
https://www.janilink.com/shop/deodorizer-freshener/deodorizer-chemicals/
https://odorban-odor-neutralizer/

Some of the so-called \'fresheners\' are just as bad as the perfumes for
triggering allergies.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[amdx]

On 11/17/2021 9:57 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote:

On 11/16/2021 11:06 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash  out.  They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma.   They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water.  Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T
I suggest you call the manufacturers of ODOBAN and ODOR-BAN and ask if

their product would help.

https://odoban.com/what-is-odoban/
https://www.janilink.com/shop/deodorizer-freshener/deodorizer-chemicals/
https://odorban-odor-neutralizer/
Some of the so-called \'fresheners\' are just as bad as the perfumes for
triggering allergies.

 Does that include these two?

I eliminated two that had a scent, like vanilla citrus. I did suggest
calling the manufacturer to get more info.


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

 

[amdx]

On 11/17/2021 9:57 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote:

On 11/16/2021 11:06 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash  out.  They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma.   They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water.  Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T
I suggest you call the manufacturers of ODOBAN and ODOR-BAN and ask if

their product would help.

https://odoban.com/what-is-odoban/
https://www.janilink.com/shop/deodorizer-freshener/deodorizer-chemicals/
https://odorban-odor-neutralizer/
Some of the so-called \'fresheners\' are just as bad as the perfumes for
triggering allergies.

 Does that include these two?

I eliminated two that had a scent, like vanilla citrus. I did suggest
calling the manufacturer to get more info.


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

 

[Martin Brown]

On 17/11/2021 10:09, T wrote:

On 11/17/21 00:28, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 9:06:09 PM UTC-8, T wrote:

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash out. They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma. They
don\'t wash out. ...

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

On the principle that like dissolves like, if water doesn\'t dissolve
these scents, try dry cleaning.   If water does dissolve \'em, but they
diffuse slow,
a long soak (bucket of water, immerse for a day before laundering) can
be useful.   Use distilled water and a little wetting agent (Woolite?).

Sometimes alkali  (washing soda) can be added to a wash load, if you
  want more variables to play with.


I am going to respond to my original post with what
does not work and what sort-of works

You might get better answers in sci.chem than here. At least there it
will be on topic. You may struggle to find a way to defeat the systems
in modern detergents. Most of the scents used today are not especially
toxic unless you are a hypochondriac. Some of them make me sneeze.

Your best bet is to buy hypoallergenic or equivalently fragrance free
products rather than trying to denature the chemistry of standard off
the shelf products. Someone spent a lot of time and effort making
molecules that bind well to fabrics and then slowly release again.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Martin Brown]

On 17/11/2021 10:09, T wrote:

On 11/17/21 00:28, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 9:06:09 PM UTC-8, T wrote:

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash out. They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma. They
don\'t wash out. ...

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

On the principle that like dissolves like, if water doesn\'t dissolve
these scents, try dry cleaning.   If water does dissolve \'em, but they
diffuse slow,
a long soak (bucket of water, immerse for a day before laundering) can
be useful.   Use distilled water and a little wetting agent (Woolite?).

Sometimes alkali  (washing soda) can be added to a wash load, if you
  want more variables to play with.


I am going to respond to my original post with what
does not work and what sort-of works

You might get better answers in sci.chem than here. At least there it
will be on topic. You may struggle to find a way to defeat the systems
in modern detergents. Most of the scents used today are not especially
toxic unless you are a hypochondriac. Some of them make me sneeze.

Your best bet is to buy hypoallergenic or equivalently fragrance free
products rather than trying to denature the chemistry of standard off
the shelf products. Someone spent a lot of time and effort making
molecules that bind well to fabrics and then slowly release again.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote:

On 11/17/2021 9:57 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote:

On 11/16/2021 11:06 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash  out.  They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma.   They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water.  Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T
I suggest you call the manufacturers of ODOBAN and ODOR-BAN and ask if

their product would help.

https://odoban.com/what-is-odoban/
https://www.janilink.com/shop/deodorizer-freshener/deodorizer-chemicals/
https://odorban-odor-neutralizer/
Some of the so-called \'fresheners\' are just as bad as the perfumes for
triggering allergies.

 Does that include these two?

I have never come across them, but I am in the UK and they may not be on
sale here. Most things here with \'Fresh\' on the labels are toxic as
hell.

I eliminated two that had a scent, like vanilla citrus. I did suggest
calling the manufacturer to get more info.

I doubt if you will get anything other than a bland statement that their
products are fine or only contain \'natural\' ingredients (such as
D-Limonene, oxalic acid, tannin and aconitine?).


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk