OT: alcohol based perfume removal?...

[Martin Brown]

On 19/11/2021 19:26, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 18. november 2021 kl. 22.18.51 UTC+1 skrev
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:48:12 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 18/11/2021 20.22, Rick C wrote:

The condition is very real. People like you who can\'t be rational
about it and only talk in terms of emotion should stay away from the
forefront or others will think we are all like you. Yes, it is real,
but it is psychosomatic. Doesn\'t make it less real.

It is not psychosomatic (caused or aggravated by a mental factor such as
internal conflict or stress). Anything you say about psychosomatic
illnesses is not relevant.

how can you rules out it is psychosomatic? the mind can do weird things,
and smells are already know to be powerful triggers of for example
memories

Smells and taste are primitive senses and go very deep into the lowest
levels of awareness. There are reflex actions like sneezes that trigger
well before the brain has time to classify what the smell is or even
recognise that it is present. Bitterness and some revolting smells are
there as a warning. Covid has been shown to scramble sense of smell.

Not good if you make your living as a food taster or whiskey blender.

I can\'t speak for everyone, but in my case some of the chemicals in
perfumes act as neurotoxins, causing confusion, nausea and making my
eyes unable to focus. This has happened on occasions when I was unaware
of any smell but later discovered that an odourless \'air freshener\' had
been installed without my knowledge.

I think you are making up word salad here. I am very sensitive to smells
at a level where I can identify many organic chemicals by smell alone. I
can also match worn clothes to their owners quite reliably.

I was allergic to tobacco smoke and perfume counters as a child but I
grew out of it. The only remaining thing is that on exposure to an
unexpected strong (to me) smell I can sneeze violently a full 2s before
I can smell it. Sometimes I cannot quite smell it but know it is there.

Most times people with me cannot smell it at all and the odd one can
identify something that makes their nose tingle but no smell as such.
Bad ones sometimes bring tears to my eyes but I can live with that.

The weirdest thing is that my mum had no sense of smell or taste (nor
did my great aunt) and one of my female cousins is also a super taster.
The genetic difference between being a super taster and can\'t smell at
all must be almost a hard on/off genetic switch somewhere.

Where there is a psychological element, it is when I avoid perfumes I
can smell in case they contain substances that are toxic to me. I would
rather do that than wait to see if they make me ill. It\'s called
\'learning\'.

They are not truly toxic to you unless you go into anaphylactic shock. I
do have such a vulnerability but not to any smell. I wear a medic alert
bracelet and have an ICE warning on my mobile phone lock screen.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 5:24:38 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

On 19/11/2021 19:26, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
I can\'t speak for everyone, but in my case some of the chemicals in
perfumes act as neurotoxins, causing confusion, nausea and making my
eyes unable to focus. This has happened on occasions when I was unaware
of any smell but later discovered that an odourless \'air freshener\' had
been installed without my knowledge.
I think you are making up word salad here. I am very sensitive to smells
at a level where I can identify many organic chemicals by smell alone. I
can also match worn clothes to their owners quite reliably.

I think you are being dismissive of something you don\'t understand. You are not \"sensitive\", you have a good \"selective\" ability. That\'s not remotely the same. Since you don\'t understand the issue, you are not qualified to discuss it.

<<< snipped pointless personal anecdotes >>>

Where there is a psychological element, it is when I avoid perfumes I
can smell in case they contain substances that are toxic to me. I would
rather do that than wait to see if they make me ill. It\'s called
\'learning\'.
They are not truly toxic to you unless you go into anaphylactic shock. I
do have such a vulnerability but not to any smell. I wear a medic alert
bracelet and have an ICE warning on my mobile phone lock screen.

Again, a failure to understand and insisting your personal experience is the only relevant fact. Do you wear a medic alert bracelet to every substance you would suffer a toxic response to?

Please look up the definition of \"toxic\" before posting again.

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 5:24:38 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

On 19/11/2021 19:26, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
I can\'t speak for everyone, but in my case some of the chemicals in
perfumes act as neurotoxins, causing confusion, nausea and making my
eyes unable to focus. This has happened on occasions when I was unaware
of any smell but later discovered that an odourless \'air freshener\' had
been installed without my knowledge.
I think you are making up word salad here. I am very sensitive to smells
at a level where I can identify many organic chemicals by smell alone. I
can also match worn clothes to their owners quite reliably.

I think you are being dismissive of something you don\'t understand. You are not \"sensitive\", you have a good \"selective\" ability. That\'s not remotely the same. Since you don\'t understand the issue, you are not qualified to discuss it.

<<< snipped pointless personal anecdotes >>>

Where there is a psychological element, it is when I avoid perfumes I
can smell in case they contain substances that are toxic to me. I would
rather do that than wait to see if they make me ill. It\'s called
\'learning\'.
They are not truly toxic to you unless you go into anaphylactic shock. I
do have such a vulnerability but not to any smell. I wear a medic alert
bracelet and have an ICE warning on my mobile phone lock screen.

Again, a failure to understand and insisting your personal experience is the only relevant fact. Do you wear a medic alert bracelet to every substance you would suffer a toxic response to?

Please look up the definition of \"toxic\" before posting again.

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 5:24:38 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

On 19/11/2021 19:26, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
I can\'t speak for everyone, but in my case some of the chemicals in
perfumes act as neurotoxins, causing confusion, nausea and making my
eyes unable to focus. This has happened on occasions when I was unaware
of any smell but later discovered that an odourless \'air freshener\' had
been installed without my knowledge.
I think you are making up word salad here. I am very sensitive to smells
at a level where I can identify many organic chemicals by smell alone. I
can also match worn clothes to their owners quite reliably.

I think you are being dismissive of something you don\'t understand. You are not \"sensitive\", you have a good \"selective\" ability. That\'s not remotely the same. Since you don\'t understand the issue, you are not qualified to discuss it.

<<< snipped pointless personal anecdotes >>>

Where there is a psychological element, it is when I avoid perfumes I
can smell in case they contain substances that are toxic to me. I would
rather do that than wait to see if they make me ill. It\'s called
\'learning\'.
They are not truly toxic to you unless you go into anaphylactic shock. I
do have such a vulnerability but not to any smell. I wear a medic alert
bracelet and have an ICE warning on my mobile phone lock screen.

Again, a failure to understand and insisting your personal experience is the only relevant fact. Do you wear a medic alert bracelet to every substance you would suffer a toxic response to?

Please look up the definition of \"toxic\" before posting again.

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 5:24:38 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

On 19/11/2021 19:26, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
I can\'t speak for everyone, but in my case some of the chemicals in
perfumes act as neurotoxins, causing confusion, nausea and making my
eyes unable to focus. This has happened on occasions when I was unaware
of any smell but later discovered that an odourless \'air freshener\' had
been installed without my knowledge.
I think you are making up word salad here. I am very sensitive to smells
at a level where I can identify many organic chemicals by smell alone. I
can also match worn clothes to their owners quite reliably.

I think you are being dismissive of something you don\'t understand. You are not \"sensitive\", you have a good \"selective\" ability. That\'s not remotely the same. Since you don\'t understand the issue, you are not qualified to discuss it.

<<< snipped pointless personal anecdotes >>>

Where there is a psychological element, it is when I avoid perfumes I
can smell in case they contain substances that are toxic to me. I would
rather do that than wait to see if they make me ill. It\'s called
\'learning\'.
They are not truly toxic to you unless you go into anaphylactic shock. I
do have such a vulnerability but not to any smell. I wear a medic alert
bracelet and have an ICE warning on my mobile phone lock screen.

Again, a failure to understand and insisting your personal experience is the only relevant fact. Do you wear a medic alert bracelet to every substance you would suffer a toxic response to?

Please look up the definition of \"toxic\" before posting again.

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 11/17/21 02:03, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The obvious solution is simply to not add a softener to the machine -
our machines have 4 receptacles: pre-wash, wash, bleach, and softener.

Hi Carlos,

Oh lord! What makes you think I would use these chemicals?
My house is totally unscented.

I am picking them up from other people\'s houses and businesses.

I once had to threaten a neighbour with calling in the Public Health
department when they refused to stop using excessive amounts of perfume
that kept blowing into my house.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 11/17/21 02:03, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The obvious solution is simply to not add a softener to the machine -
our machines have 4 receptacles: pre-wash, wash, bleach, and softener.

Hi Carlos,

Oh lord! What makes you think I would use these chemicals?
My house is totally unscented.

I am picking them up from other people\'s houses and businesses.

I once had to threaten a neighbour with calling in the Public Health
department when they refused to stop using excessive amounts of perfume
that kept blowing into my house.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

[...]at number towards them using nontoxic scents.

Or our neighbors could give a damn about the affect
on those around them and stop purchasing those products.
That would tilt the number on the bottom line in
a hell of a hurry.

A lot of \'public health\' advice was distributed by women\'s magazines and
they were paid for by the perfume advertising. You could not have got
the message out even if people had been dying at the rate of hundreds a
week.

I cannot drive my van in the Bath Clean Air Zone without a heavy
penalty, but I can\'t use buses as an alternative because there might be
someone on board wearing perfume. There are no regulations about shops
pumping out perfume and the Council has already told me they can\'t do
anything to stop that unless I live in the same street as the shop.

The \"Clean Air Zone\" doesn\'t extend to perfume in shops and buses, yet
far more people are ill because of perfume than because of diesel fumes
(but diesel fumes are easier to measure and vehicle owners are \'soft\'
targets).

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

[...]at number towards them using nontoxic scents.

Or our neighbors could give a damn about the affect
on those around them and stop purchasing those products.
That would tilt the number on the bottom line in
a hell of a hurry.

A lot of \'public health\' advice was distributed by women\'s magazines and
they were paid for by the perfume advertising. You could not have got
the message out even if people had been dying at the rate of hundreds a
week.

I cannot drive my van in the Bath Clean Air Zone without a heavy
penalty, but I can\'t use buses as an alternative because there might be
someone on board wearing perfume. There are no regulations about shops
pumping out perfume and the Council has already told me they can\'t do
anything to stop that unless I live in the same street as the shop.

The \"Clean Air Zone\" doesn\'t extend to perfume in shops and buses, yet
far more people are ill because of perfume than because of diesel fumes
(but diesel fumes are easier to measure and vehicle owners are \'soft\'
targets).

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

[...]

Oh and the exhaust from their dryers after using
fabric softeners pollutes the air in the
neighborhood too

I\'ve had that too. I finished up begging my neighbour to redirect their
dryer exhaust or use something unperfumed, but she adamantly refused.
Her husband came round apologising, but it was no use, he couldn\'t get
her to stop either and I lost two years of being able to work in my
garden until they moved away.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Liz Tuddenham]

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

[...]

Oh and the exhaust from their dryers after using
fabric softeners pollutes the air in the
neighborhood too

I\'ve had that too. I finished up begging my neighbour to redirect their
dryer exhaust or use something unperfumed, but she adamantly refused.
Her husband came round apologising, but it was no use, he couldn\'t get
her to stop either and I lost two years of being able to work in my
garden until they moved away.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Johann Klammer]

On 11/17/2021 06:34 AM, Rick C wrote:

Not sure where you heard that detergents have fragrances that are not water soluble. I suppose it is theoretically possible, but it would not disperse evenly in the wash and would not be applied evenly to the articles in the wash.

Do you know the names of any of these fragrances?

I buy laundry detergents without perfume or color. I think the brand is All. I find the scent from soaps and fabric softener to be cloying and clogs my sense of smell. I\'m happy with no scent. I find antiperspirants to be similar, but I can\'t find them without any scent, however some are rather mild.

It is hard to imagine any scent (other than Eau de Pew) that won\'t depart sheets and clothing hanging on the line for a day.

What makes you think these substances are actually \"toxic\"?

The search term is fabric softener. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabric_softener#Risks>
They\'re problematic.

 

[Johann Klammer]

On 11/17/2021 06:34 AM, Rick C wrote:

Not sure where you heard that detergents have fragrances that are not water soluble. I suppose it is theoretically possible, but it would not disperse evenly in the wash and would not be applied evenly to the articles in the wash.

Do you know the names of any of these fragrances?

I buy laundry detergents without perfume or color. I think the brand is All. I find the scent from soaps and fabric softener to be cloying and clogs my sense of smell. I\'m happy with no scent. I find antiperspirants to be similar, but I can\'t find them without any scent, however some are rather mild.

It is hard to imagine any scent (other than Eau de Pew) that won\'t depart sheets and clothing hanging on the line for a day.

What makes you think these substances are actually \"toxic\"?

The search term is fabric softener. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabric_softener#Risks>
They\'re problematic.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 18/11/2021 03:32, T wrote:

On 11/17/21 09:12, Martin Brown wrote:
You might get better answers in sci.chem than here

I just posted over there.

I originally searched for it in subscriptions, but I
typed out \"chemistry\" and could not find it.  Thank
you!

sci.chem is one of the very old foundation groups hence the short name.
chemistry was one letter too long for its own good back in the day.

Try Google groups \"Uncle Al\" and your topic and you might just get
something. He was in his day very very smart and knowledgeable. It\'s
rather quiet there now. You don\'t get many random nutters posting about
chemistry (they are all posting in the sci.astro .physics sub groups).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 8:50:04 PM UTC-4, T wrote:

On 11/17/21 04:02, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 6:22:16 AM UTC-4, T wrote:

What sort-of works on old cloths (that pick it up
by me sitting in peoples chairs):

You talk about picking it up from other people\'s furniture, but don\'t you smell that as soon as you enter the room or sit in the chair?
Of course. I am a computer consultant. I have to
enter their rooms and sit in their chairs or my
family will starve.

That\'s an interesting concept. I suspect it is not a valid argument in general, but it is certainly not a valid argument for causing harm to yourself and to your family. You can change jobs if nothing else.

I\'m presently living in Airbnb places for a couple of weeks at a time. I often walk into an apartment only to find it has been fumigated with these sorts of scents. Sometimes I can\'t sleep in the bed right away. I think this is mostly fabric softeners, but sometimes they add special scents to the place when cleaning or even have those plug in fresheners.
Oh and the exhaust from their dryers after using
fabric softeners pollutes the air in the
neighborhood too

I think you are going to have a hard time showing any harm from your neighbor\'s dryer exhaust vent.

To people who aren\'t sensitive, all these scents smell good. To the rest of us it\'s not a lot different from spreading the smell of feces or decaying flesh. Some scents are barely noticeable and not offensive to me, like in the antiperspirants I use. I wonder why they use the scents that are much stronger and easily offend. I guess it\'s still a tiny minority who are sensitive and what sells, sells.

Oh I do not know about \"tiny\". Just under 20% of
the population has breathing issues of one type
or another. Asthma especially.

Having asthma does not equate to being sensitive to perfumes. There may be a correlation, but how strong?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 8:50:04 PM UTC-4, T wrote:

On 11/17/21 04:02, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 6:22:16 AM UTC-4, T wrote:

What sort-of works on old cloths (that pick it up
by me sitting in peoples chairs):

You talk about picking it up from other people\'s furniture, but don\'t you smell that as soon as you enter the room or sit in the chair?
Of course. I am a computer consultant. I have to
enter their rooms and sit in their chairs or my
family will starve.

That\'s an interesting concept. I suspect it is not a valid argument in general, but it is certainly not a valid argument for causing harm to yourself and to your family. You can change jobs if nothing else.

I\'m presently living in Airbnb places for a couple of weeks at a time. I often walk into an apartment only to find it has been fumigated with these sorts of scents. Sometimes I can\'t sleep in the bed right away. I think this is mostly fabric softeners, but sometimes they add special scents to the place when cleaning or even have those plug in fresheners.
Oh and the exhaust from their dryers after using
fabric softeners pollutes the air in the
neighborhood too

I think you are going to have a hard time showing any harm from your neighbor\'s dryer exhaust vent.

To people who aren\'t sensitive, all these scents smell good. To the rest of us it\'s not a lot different from spreading the smell of feces or decaying flesh. Some scents are barely noticeable and not offensive to me, like in the antiperspirants I use. I wonder why they use the scents that are much stronger and easily offend. I guess it\'s still a tiny minority who are sensitive and what sells, sells.

Oh I do not know about \"tiny\". Just under 20% of
the population has breathing issues of one type
or another. Asthma especially.

Having asthma does not equate to being sensitive to perfumes. There may be a correlation, but how strong?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 8:55:21 PM UTC-4, T wrote:

On 11/17/21 13:06, Cydrome Leader wrote:
T <T...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash out. They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma. They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water. Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T

Not sure what you\'re after here, but if you want a laundry detergent
itself with no extra smells of any type added, look at the lineup from
Atsko. The no UV hunting detergent and sport wash are the same product
with different labelling. Nothing else comes close to just being detergent
with no additives. The stuff has virtually no odor even if you smell from
the jug itself. It also leaves no weird residues on washed clothing. It\'s
perfect for hypochondriacs or people who just need rags with no residue on
them.

I am after getting other people chemicals out of
my cloths. I have tried stuff for hunters and
it does not work.

Maybe the easy path is to wear a set of coveralls for work and not bring them into the home?

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 8:55:21 PM UTC-4, T wrote:

On 11/17/21 13:06, Cydrome Leader wrote:
T <T...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash out. They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma. They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water. Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T

Not sure what you\'re after here, but if you want a laundry detergent
itself with no extra smells of any type added, look at the lineup from
Atsko. The no UV hunting detergent and sport wash are the same product
with different labelling. Nothing else comes close to just being detergent
with no additives. The stuff has virtually no odor even if you smell from
the jug itself. It also leaves no weird residues on washed clothing. It\'s
perfect for hypochondriacs or people who just need rags with no residue on
them.

I am after getting other people chemicals out of
my cloths. I have tried stuff for hunters and
it does not work.

Maybe the easy path is to wear a set of coveralls for work and not bring them into the home?

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 8:55:21 PM UTC-4, T wrote:

On 11/17/21 13:06, Cydrome Leader wrote:
T <T...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Hi All,

Anyone with a chemistry background?

There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
(that are highly scented) that are not meant to
wash out. They toxic substances are very difficult
on folks with allergies, especially asthma. They
don\'t wash out.

Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won\'t wash
out in water. Am I correct?

Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?

Any other ideas one way other the other?

Many thanks,
-T

Not sure what you\'re after here, but if you want a laundry detergent
itself with no extra smells of any type added, look at the lineup from
Atsko. The no UV hunting detergent and sport wash are the same product
with different labelling. Nothing else comes close to just being detergent
with no additives. The stuff has virtually no odor even if you smell from
the jug itself. It also leaves no weird residues on washed clothing. It\'s
perfect for hypochondriacs or people who just need rags with no residue on
them.

I am after getting other people chemicals out of
my cloths. I have tried stuff for hunters and
it does not work.

Maybe the easy path is to wear a set of coveralls for work and not bring them into the home?

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 8:40:33 AM UTC-4, Johann Klammer wrote:

On 11/17/2021 06:34 AM, Rick C wrote:

Not sure where you heard that detergents have fragrances that are not water soluble. I suppose it is theoretically possible, but it would not disperse evenly in the wash and would not be applied evenly to the articles in the wash.

Do you know the names of any of these fragrances?

I buy laundry detergents without perfume or color. I think the brand is All. I find the scent from soaps and fabric softener to be cloying and clogs my sense of smell. I\'m happy with no scent. I find antiperspirants to be similar, but I can\'t find them without any scent, however some are rather mild.

It is hard to imagine any scent (other than Eau de Pew) that won\'t depart sheets and clothing hanging on the line for a day.

What makes you think these substances are actually \"toxic\"?

The search term is fabric softener. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabric_softener#Risks
They\'re problematic.

They may be problematic, but the reference you provide doesn\'t say they are \"toxic\". \"Toxic - Capable of causing injury or death, especially by chemical means\". I don\'t see any mention of death or serious injury, at least unless you are handling the stuff. What we are talking about here is equivalent to second hand smoke. It\'s hard to apply the term \"toxic\".

But maybe I\'m just not that sensitive.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209