OT: 1.8GW solar park nears completion

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 19:48:32 +0100, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/09/19 17:56, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion

Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the
Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot,
amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're
also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle
plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands.

https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants

The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help
them a lot.

If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on.

People need electricity at night too.

Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at
night. Energy usage declines sharply at night.

The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than
during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can fall
by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 industry.

You failed to quote the heading of the chapter you are quoting

Fluctuations in household electricity consumption

In the UK it is 4:1 ...

• Peak demand for electricity is about four
times greater than night-time demand
• Electricity consumption increases rapidly
in the morning as people wake up, shower
and begin to use appliances
• Many people are out during the day, which
keeps consumption steady
• Electricity consumption peaks in the
evening when most people are at home
cooking, using lights, and when TV viewing
is at its height
• Major national events, such as a
Wimbledon final, can cause sharp drops
and increases in demand

With that heading that chapter makes sense and might even be accurate.

However, from production point of view, those figures are quite
irrelevant. More relevant is to include industry and infrastructure
consumptions, such as street lights.

Source: https://bbc.in/2UTHUC4 from
BEIS (2016) Energy Consumption in the UK
where BEIS is the UK "governments" Department
for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy

 

[Steve Wilson]

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:28:58 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

We are only really in trouble if it is a blocking high calm cold winters
day without wind and the same over most of Europe. When that happens
next time there will be UK power cuts since France won't export to us if
their entire generating capacity is needed domestically.

If building more wind and solar results in reduction of fossil-fueled
power capacity, expect occasional interesting events.

Pity there are no good storage options.

All these problems will vanish when thorium molten salt reactors come online.
I don't know what's holding them up. The first LFTR went critical in 1965 and
ran for four years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor

Companies around the world are working on them, but it appears nothing is
happening. Obama and Trump both promised to speed them up. I guess there is a
huge investment in boiling water reactors that would disappear when LFTRs
come online.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 18/09/19 17:56, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion

Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the
Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot,
amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're
also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle
plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands.

https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants

The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help
them a lot.

If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on.

People need electricity at night too.

Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at
night. Energy usage declines sharply at night.

The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than
during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can fall
by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 industry.

In the UK the demand over the past 24 hours varied from
23.211GW (1:55am) to 37.106GW (6:40pm), so the minimum
was 37.5% down from the maximum.

Source: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 18/09/19 20:15, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 19:48:32 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/09/19 17:56, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion

Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the
Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot,
amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're
also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle
plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands.

https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants

The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help
them a lot.

If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on.

People need electricity at night too.

Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at
night. Energy usage declines sharply at night.

The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than
during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can fall
by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 industry.

You failed to quote the heading of the chapter you are quoting

Fluctuations in household electricity consumption

In the UK it is 4:1 ...

• Peak demand for electricity is about four
times greater than night-time demand
• Electricity consumption increases rapidly
in the morning as people wake up, shower
and begin to use appliances
• Many people are out during the day, which
keeps consumption steady
• Electricity consumption peaks in the
evening when most people are at home
cooking, using lights, and when TV viewing
is at its height
• Major national events, such as a
Wimbledon final, can cause sharp drops
and increases in demand

With that heading that chapter makes sense and might even be accurate.

However, from production point of view, those figures are quite
irrelevant. More relevant is to include industry and infrastructure
consumptions, such as street lights.

Annoyingly, that's correct

My excuse is that I was being nagged to get out the house,
and posted too quickly. That isn't a good excuse

 

[Steve Wilson]

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:50:31 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

All these problems will vanish when thorium molten salt reactors come
online. I don't know what's holding them up.

1. The public is afraid of radiation.

Not so much radiation, but meltdowns - Three Mile, Chernobyl, Fukushima.
Reactors that lose their cooling water tend to explode.

Molten salt reactors cannot melt down. They are already molten. They cannot
explode. There is no water in them.

2. The greenies don't want more energy, clean or otherwise. They want
sacrifice.

The greenies have no control over when or where power plants are constructed.

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:50:31 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:28:58 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

We are only really in trouble if it is a blocking high calm cold winters
day without wind and the same over most of Europe. When that happens
next time there will be UK power cuts since France won't export to us if
their entire generating capacity is needed domestically.

If building more wind and solar results in reduction of fossil-fueled
power capacity, expect occasional interesting events.

Pity there are no good storage options.

All these problems will vanish when thorium molten salt reactors come online.
I don't know what's holding them up.

1. The public is afraid of radiation.

2. The greenies don't want more energy, clean or otherwise. They want
sacrifice.

 

[Steve Wilson]

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:06:41 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:
The greenies have no control over when or where power plants are
constructed.

Worked in Germany.

Germany has already decided to shut down their coal and nuclear plants and
move to renewables.

See:

PREAMBLE

Germany has seven nuclear power reactors in operation and is in the process
of phasing out its nuclear power programme. A total of 23 nuclear power
reactors are undergoing decommissioning and three nuclear power plants have
already been fully dismantled. The remaining seven nuclear power reactors
in operation will be permanently shut down in a phased approach by the end
of 2022.

This report provides information on the status and development of nuclear
power programmes in Germany, including factors related to the effective
planning, decision making and implementation of the nuclear power programme
that together lead to safe and economical operation of nuclear power
plants.

The CNPP summarizes organizational and industrial aspects of nuclear power
programmes and provides information about the relevant legislative,
regulatory and international framework in Germany.

1. COUNTRY ENERGY OVERVIEW
1.1. ENERGY INFORMATION
1.1.1. Energy policy

Energy policy is, within the Federal Government, the responsibility of the
Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy (Bundesministerium für
Wirtschaft und Energie (BMWi)). The Federal Ministry for the Environment,
Nature Conservation and Nuclear Safety (Bundesministerium für Umwelt,
Naturschutz und nukleare Sicherheit (BMU)) is responsible for environmental
policy within the Federal Government.

The major aim of the German energy policy is an affordable, secure and
environmentally friendly energy supply. This aim shall be reached through
the ongoing energy transition, where it is planned to produce energy on a
sustainable basis and to maintain one of the most energy efficient and
environmentally compatible economies in the world. The energy transition
includes the following steps:

The last German nuclear power plant (NPP) will be taken off-grid by the
end of 2022.

A greater share of renewable energy shall be used — according to the
energy concept, 60% of the energy supply and 80% of electricity should be
generated by renewables by 2050.

Germany shall become less dependent on oil and gas imports.

In line with the Paris Agreement, the emissions of greenhouse gases,
which are harmful to the environment, shall be reduced by 80% to 95% by
2050.

Energy needs shall be reduced by more economical and efficient use.

The restructuring of the energy supply shall be a driver of innovation
for Germany as an industrial base in order to generate growth and create
sustainable and secure jobs.

To meet the challenges of the energy transition, the BMWi has launched a
Ten Point Energy Agenda (see www.bmwi.de/Redaktion/EN/Dossier/energy-
transition.html).
1.1.2. Estimated available energy

Germany is one of the largest energy consumers in the world and is
currently expanding generation capacities for primary energy from renewable
sources as part of the implementation of its energy transition, and to
comply with the obligations inherent in the Paris Climate Agreement signed
in 2015. However, around 80% of its primary energy consumption still has to
be provided by fossil fuels. Germany must import the majority of the energy
resources it requires. The most significant source countries for fossil
fuel imports to Germany are the Russian Federation, Norway and the
Netherlands.

Around 2% of crude oil production and 10% of natural gas production are
derived from domestic production. Mining of hard coal was phased out in
2018. Of all the energy resources in Germany, lignite is the only non-
renewable energy resource which is available in large, economically
extractable amounts — Germany supplies its own needs, and is the world’s
largest producer and consumer of this resource.

The demand for natural uranium is covered almost entirely by imports. Since
the closure of the Wismut facility in East Germany in 1990, there has been
no mined production of natural uranium in Germany.

An overview of the estimated available energy sources in Germany is given
in Table 1. The remaining potential includes reserves (proven volumes of
energy resources economically exploitable at today’s prices and using
today’s technology) and resources (proven amounts of energy resources which
cannot currently be exploited for technical and/or economic reasons, as
well as unproven but geologically possible energy resources which may be
exploitable in future).

https://cnpp.iaea.org/countryprofiles/Germany/Germany.htm

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:06:41 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:50:31 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

All these problems will vanish when thorium molten salt reactors come
online. I don't know what's holding them up.

1. The public is afraid of radiation.

Not so much radiation, but meltdowns - Three Mile, Chernobyl, Fukushima.
Reactors that lose their cooling water tend to explode.

Molten salt reactors cannot melt down. They are already molten. They cannot
explode. There is no water in them.

2. The greenies don't want more energy, clean or otherwise. They want
sacrifice.

The greenies have no control over when or where power plants are constructed.

Worked in Germany.

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 6:44:57 PM UTC-4, Steve Wilson wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:06:41 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:
The greenies have no control over when or where power plants are
constructed.

Worked in Germany.

Germany has already decided to shut down their coal and nuclear plants and
move to renewables.

Seems to me this is similar to when Kennedy said the US would put a man on the moon by the end of the decade. They knew it was possible, but didn't know exactly how to do it. They also knew there was considerable risk.

One big advantage of renewables, other countries can't raise prices or cut them off.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Winfield Hill]

Rick C wrote...

One big advantage of renewables, other countries
can't raise prices or cut them off.

An issue Germany has faced with Russian gas.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[George Herold]

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 6:26:17 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:06:41 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:50:31 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

All these problems will vanish when thorium molten salt reactors come
online. I don't know what's holding them up.

1. The public is afraid of radiation.

Not so much radiation, but meltdowns - Three Mile, Chernobyl, Fukushima.
Reactors that lose their cooling water tend to explode.

Molten salt reactors cannot melt down. They are already molten. They cannot
explode. There is no water in them.

2. The greenies don't want more energy, clean or otherwise. They want
sacrifice.

The greenies have no control over when or where power plants are constructed.

Worked in Germany.

I have a colleague, he went back to work in Germany.
I'm not sure but I think when he was working here in the US
~20 years ago he was pro-nuclear.
(like ~90% of his physics colleagues)
He was back here last year and we were talking,
and he was telling me how bad nuclear is,
no where to put the waste. (And I'm thinking
where does the waste from burning coal go?)

Maybe mostly about getting along with your local crowd,
if everyone in Deutschland is anti nuc, it's hard to be pro.

George H.

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 9:52:59 PM UTC-4, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Am 19.09.19 um 03:09 schrieb Winfield Hill:
Rick C wrote...

One big advantage of renewables, other countries
can't raise prices or cut them off.

An issue Germany has faced with Russian gas.

There have never been issues with Russian gas.
Never ever. Not even during the cold war.
The Russians keep their contracts.
That's more than one can say about the US.

Well, the Ukrainians help themselves at the
pipeline, now and then. Then they wonder why
the second pipeline is under the sea now.

Gerhard

I seem to recall the issue with gas from the other side of the fallen iron curtain is the *threat* of being cut off.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 7:49:47 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:50:31 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:28:58 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

We are only really in trouble if it is a blocking high calm cold winters
day without wind and the same over most of Europe. When that happens
next time there will be UK power cuts since France won't export to us if
their entire generating capacity is needed domestically.

If building more wind and solar results in reduction of fossil-fueled
power capacity, expect occasional interesting events.

Pity there are no good storage options.

All these problems will vanish when thorium molten salt reactors come online.
I don't know what's holding them up.

1. The public is afraid of radiation.

Not an irrational anxiety.

2. The greenies don't want more energy, clean or otherwise. They want
sacrifice.

There may be greenies who are that silly. I don't seem to come across any of their propaganda, but John Larkin gets his information on the subject from denialist propaganda websites designed to appeal to the gullible, and they presumably feel free to invent any kind of greeny they feel might be useful.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Martin Brown]

On 18/09/2019 19:48, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 18/09/19 17:56, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield
Hill wrote:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion


Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the
Nile, but in the eastern Sahara.  1.8GW is a lot,
amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're
also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle
plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands.

https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants


The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help
them a lot.

If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on.

People need electricity at night too.

Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at
night.  Energy usage declines sharply at night.

The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than
during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can fall
by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 industry.

In the UK it is 4:1 ...

• Peak demand for electricity is about four
times greater than night-time demand

That cannot be right apart from in the most extreme situation of a
Wimbledon final or a cup final involving England kettle rush load in the
middle of the coldest weather the country has ever seen and held on a
weekday evening at 8pm (which is about when peak winter load occurs).

Normal diurnal load variation in the UK for most of the year is about
30% of peak load rising to 50% in a really cold winter. Base load also
rises in winter because of economy 7 off-peak use tariffs.

Base load is typically 20GW continuously irrespective of season (but
will get higher in very cold weather). Absolute peak generating capacity
with everything going at full tilt is something like 80GW but it is very
very unusual for actual consumption to go above 60GW). Last winter was
so mild that it didn't get much above 40GW for any length of time.

In spring 2018 they were having to pay some industrial users to not use
electricity because their available capacity was so limited.

https://www.ft.com/content/2c1f71c6-2ef7-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc

We very nearly ran out of mains gas when "the beast from the East" hit
and that was with a peak demand that was under 50GW for a few days.
Broken gas pipelines being offline didn't help:

https://www.drax.com/energy-policy/the-beast-from-the-east/

• Electricity consumption increases rapidly
in the morning as people wake up, shower
and begin to use appliances
• Many people are out during the day, which
keeps consumption steady
• Electricity consumption peaks in the
evening when most people are at home
cooking, using lights, and when TV viewing
is at its height
• Major national events, such as a
Wimbledon final, can cause sharp drops
and increases in demand

Source: https://bbc.in/2UTHUC4 from
BEIS (2016) Energy Consumption in the UK
where BEIS is the UK "governments" Department
for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy

Odd that they should make such a crass mistake on the first line.
You can check the annual peak figures for last year on gridwatch.

Or here for previous more representative cold winter years:

See for example:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/295225/Seasonal_variations_in_electricity_demand.pdf

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:18:46 PM UTC+10, Winfield Hill wrote:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion

Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the
Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot,
amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're
also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle
plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands.

https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants

There's a PV Project Feed-In Tariff document,
which has prices, but it may not show the
effective cost of the new solar electricity.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/what-energy-storage-would-have-to-cost-for-a-renewable-grid

This talks about what energy storage would have to cost to be cheap enough to allow solar to supply all the power being used. It's not there yet.

But it doesn't take much in the way of backup sources to let you get away with more expensive storage, and we may be there already.

Economy of scale has pushed the price of solar cells down a long way.

Grid storage modules aren't really being mass-produced yet, so they may come down quite a bit too when they get more popular.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 19/09/19 12:30, Martin Brown wrote:

On 18/09/2019 19:48, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 18/09/19 17:56, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion


Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the
Nile, but in the eastern Sahara.  1.8GW is a lot,
amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're
also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle
plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands.

https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants


The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help
them a lot.

If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on.

People need electricity at night too.

Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at
night.  Energy usage declines sharply at night.

The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than
during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can fall
by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 industry.

In the UK it is 4:1 ...

• Peak demand for electricity is about four
times greater than night-time demand

That cannot be right apart from in the most extreme situation of a Wimbledon
final or a cup final involving England kettle rush load in the middle of the
coldest weather the country has ever seen and held on a weekday evening at 8pm
(which is about when peak winter load occurs).

Normal diurnal load variation in the UK for most of the year is about 30% of
peak load rising to 50% in a really cold winter. Base load also rises in winter
because of economy 7 off-peak use tariffs.

Base load is typically 20GW continuously irrespective of season (but will get
higher in very cold weather). Absolute peak generating capacity with everything
going at full tilt is something like 80GW but it is very very unusual for actual
consumption to go above 60GW). Last winter was so mild that it didn't get much
above 40GW for any length of time.

In spring 2018 they were having to pay some industrial users to not use
electricity because their available capacity was so limited.

https://www.ft.com/content/2c1f71c6-2ef7-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc

We very nearly ran out of mains gas when "the beast from the East" hit and that
was with a peak demand that was under 50GW for a few days. Broken gas pipelines
being offline didn't help:

https://www.drax.com/energy-policy/the-beast-from-the-east/

• Electricity consumption increases rapidly
in the morning as people wake up, shower
and begin to use appliances
• Many people are out during the day, which
keeps consumption steady
• Electricity consumption peaks in the
evening when most people are at home
cooking, using lights, and when TV viewing
is at its height
• Major national events, such as a
Wimbledon final, can cause sharp drops
and increases in demand

Source: https://bbc.in/2UTHUC4 from
BEIS (2016) Energy Consumption in the UK
where BEIS is the UK "governments" Department
for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy

Odd that they should make such a crass mistake on the first line.
You can check the annual peak figures for last year on gridwatch.

Or here for previous more representative cold winter years:

See for example:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/295225/Seasonal_variations_in_electricity_demand.pdf

It was my cockup, not the BBC's.

The heading, which I missed and therefore didn't quote,
refers to /household/ electricity use, not total electricity
use. Mea culpa.

However, yesterday's diurnal variation (according to
gridwatch) was around 37.5%, and yesterday was scarcely
a cold winter day

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 8:26:39 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:18:46 PM UTC+10, Winfield Hill wrote:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion

Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the
Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot,
amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're
also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle
plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands.

https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants

There's a PV Project Feed-In Tariff document,
which has prices, but it may not show the
effective cost of the new solar electricity.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/what-energy-storage-would-have-to-cost-for-a-renewable-grid

This talks about what energy storage would have to cost to be cheap enough to allow solar to supply all the power being used. It's not there yet.

But it doesn't take much in the way of backup sources to let you get away with more expensive storage, and we may be there already.

Economy of scale has pushed the price of solar cells down a long way.

Grid storage modules aren't really being mass-produced yet, so they may come down quite a bit too when they get more popular.

Contrary to what some people would argue, companies working li-ion batteries for grid storage are designing different chemistries for this market from the currently larger market for EVs. I found a reference for this and posted in another discussion recently.

It only makes sense. Design goals are different for cars and grid storage. So the batteries will be optimized differently. In cars weight vs. capacity is vital, for grid storage not important so much, size vs. capacity is a factor, but not a critical one. Cost per kWh is important for both, but likely near the top of the list for grid storage while others are more important for cars. Grid storage can use space to provide isolation to minimize the spread of damage if a cell catches fire, a VERY important issue when you are storing MWh of energy. In cars they use active cooling and pray since there is no room for spacing cells apart.

Yep, there will be a whole industry for grid storage which will have limited overlap with EV and cell phone batteries.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 7:30:37 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

• Electricity consumption increases rapidly
in the morning as people wake up, shower
and begin to use appliances
• Many people are out during the day, which
keeps consumption steady
• Electricity consumption peaks in the
evening when most people are at home
cooking, using lights, and when TV viewing
is at its height
• Major national events, such as a
Wimbledon final, can cause sharp drops
and increases in demand

Source: https://bbc.in/2UTHUC4 from
BEIS (2016) Energy Consumption in the UK
where BEIS is the UK "governments" Department
for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy

Odd that they should make such a crass mistake on the first line.
You can check the annual peak figures for last year on gridwatch.

Or here for previous more representative cold winter years:

See for example:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/295225/Seasonal_variations_in_electricity_demand.pdf

I don't follow. Their description of the electricity usage seems spot on in describing the curve your reference provides. Are you saying people wake up in the morning and *don't* take showers???

--

Rick C.

++ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Martin Brown]

On 19/09/2019 15:07, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 7:30:37 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown
wrote:

• Electricity consumption increases rapidly in the morning as
people wake up, shower and begin to use appliances • Many people
are out during the day, which keeps consumption steady •
Electricity consumption peaks in the evening when most people are
at home cooking, using lights, and when TV viewing is at its
height • Major national events, such as a Wimbledon final, can
cause sharp drops and increases in demand

Source: https://bbc.in/2UTHUC4 from BEIS (2016) Energy
Consumption in the UK where BEIS is the UK "governments"
Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy

Odd that they should make such a crass mistake on the first line.
You can check the annual peak figures for last year on gridwatch.

Or here for previous more representative cold winter years:

See for example:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/295225/Seasonal_variations_in_electricity_demand.pdf


I don't follow. Their description of the electricity usage seems
spot on in describing the curve your reference provides. Are you
saying people wake up in the morning and *don't* take showers???

Hot water (and space heating) in the UK is typically provided by the
gas/oil central heating or a gas flash boiler so it makes no difference
to *electricity* usage. A few people have electric showers but not many.

And to your other point not everybody in the UK showers every morning.

My point was that the 4:1 ratio claimed in the first paragraph was well
wide of the mark. The entire grid nearly collapsed in March last year
because although the installed generation capacity is ~80GW you can in
very cold weather only reliably generate about 60GW of electricity
without bringing down the network that supplies mains gas to consumers.
The dash to gas for electricity has some unwelcome side effects.

They had to pay heavy industry to drop off just to keep the lights on.

An even weirder paradox is because the distribution network and the
generators are separate privatised businesses and France uses a lot more
electric heating the Beast from the East event in March 2018 saw UK
generators selling their electricity into France where it got premium
prices! (up to the full capacity of the cross channel interlinks)

Electricity de Francaise owns quite a lot of UK generating capacity (as
did Enron until it went bust). There is a derelict supergrid line not
far from me for connecting in a power station they never actually built.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[George Herold]

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 9:52:59 PM UTC-4, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Am 19.09.19 um 03:09 schrieb Winfield Hill:
Rick C wrote...

One big advantage of renewables, other countries
can't raise prices or cut them off.

An issue Germany has faced with Russian gas.

There have never been issues with Russian gas.
Never ever. Not even during the cold war.
The Russians keep their contracts.
That's more than one can say about the US.

Boston (east coast US) gets Russian gas in the winter.
(mostly because we can't build new pipe lines now.)

George H.

Well, the Ukrainians help themselves at the
pipeline, now and then. Then they wonder why
the second pipeline is under the sea now.

Gerhard