One last ESR question

[Phil Allison]

John-Del wrote:

Phil Allison wrote:

** Very few people have ever seen an example that geos the other way, bout the same number who have seen real Martians.

The next time I get one, I'll mail it to you.

** Not a whole Martian I hope.

My advice is solid, only a raving nut case would REMOVE
every electro from circuit in order to test the C value
when the * in circuit* ESR reading was good.

Do you ?

I don't really use the ESR meter much anymore,

** That was not my question.

I neither know or care what you use.

All I know for sure is you are a fucking liar.

FOAD you stinking scumbag.




..... Phil

 

[N_Cook]

On 24/04/2015 12:55, JW wrote:

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:13:03 -0400 Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote in
Message id: <alpine.LNX.2.02.1504231344110.30442@darkstar.example.org>:

Snip
But ceramic capacitors don't go bad.

Good post, but I disagree with that. I've seem 'em short out. Just last
week I removed one from a -12VDC rail on an HP 4195A network/spectrum
analyzer. The cap had caught fire.

conventional disc ceramic or multi-layer type?

 

[John-Del]

On Saturday, April 25, 2015 at 8:05:19 AM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

I don't really use the ESR meter much anymore,


** That was not my question.

You asked if I removed caps to check for C after they passed an ESR test, and I told you I don't use ESR meters in circuit anymore. Sorry, my answer was concise.

Hobbyists use ESR meters more than most folk, but real technicians use other, faster, more reliable means. I use the ESR meter after a cap is replaced for curiosity sake. Over the years, I have found electros down in value but still showing normal ESR. Also, many electros show dielectric absorption and good ESR, something your ESR meter can't show you. Look it up.


> All I know for sure is you are a fucking liar.

No, all you know is what you read on Wikipedia. Tell you what; I'll update the capacitor section for you so it will make clear that ESR is not 100% reliable in determining bad electros. This way, you won't come off as such a misinformed wanker.

FOAD you stinking scumbag.

That's it? No wishing me colon cancer like you have in the past? Not sure if I should be honored or insulted..

 

[Phil Allison]

John-Dill wrote:

I don't really use the ESR meter much anymore,


** That was not my question.

You asked if I removed caps to check for C after they passed
an ESR test, and I told you I don't use ESR meters in circuit anymore.

** Still no answer to the actual question.

> Sorry, my answer was concise.

** Your answer was crap.

Hobbyists use ESR meters more than most folk, but real technicians use other, faster, more reliable means.

** Wot utter bollocks.

Service techs use them extensively while hobbiests only toy with them.

There is simply no more efficient way to weed out high ESR electros.


> I use the ESR meter after a cap is replaced for curiosity sake.

** How fucking stupid.

Over the years, I have found electros down in value but
still showing normal ESR.

** Yawnnnnnn - just how many Martians have you seen ?

Also, many electros show dielectric absorption and good ESR,

** They all do - you pig ignorant wanker.

All I know for sure is you are a fucking liar.

No, all you know is what you read on Wikipedia.

** FYI: I happen to be a personal friend of Bob Parker, the designer of the famous "Dick Smith" ESR meter. I built two of them, one is in daily use and the other kept as a spare.

Tell you what; I'll update the capacitor section for you
so it will make clear that ESR is not 100% reliable in
determining bad electros.

** Then you will be fucking up a perfectly good Wiki with asinine crap.



..... Phil

 

Hobbyists use ESR meters more than most folk, but real technicians use other, faster, more reliable means.

** Wot utter bollocks.

Not so fast. I can do rthings with a scope and a square wave that'll turn your grind.

 

[Phil Allison]

On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 6:13:29 PM UTC+10, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

Hobbyists use ESR meters more than most folk, but real technicians use other, faster, more reliable means.


** Wot utter bollocks.

Not so fast. I can do rthings with a scope and a square wave that'll turn your grind.

** Obviously you have never used the Bob Parker ESR meter or similar.

Readings are done in circuit, shown in ohms, instant and quite accurate. The display auto-ranges to cover 10 milliohms to 99 ohms.

You can measure low value resistors too and check many kinds of batteries - particularly lithium coin memory cells for condition.

Leaves the scope and square wave method for dead.


.... Phil

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 26 Apr 2015 02:06:29 -0700, Phil Allison wrote:

On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 6:13:29 PM UTC+10, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
Hobbyists use ESR meters more than most folk, but real technicians
use other, faster, more reliable means.


** Wot utter bollocks.

Not so fast. I can do rthings with a scope and a square wave that'll
turn your grind.


** Obviously you have never used the Bob Parker ESR meter or similar.

Readings are done in circuit, shown in ohms, instant and quite accurate.
The display auto-ranges to cover 10 milliohms to 99 ohms.

You can measure low value resistors too and check many kinds of
batteries - particularly lithium coin memory cells for condition.

Leaves the scope and square wave method for dead.

I have the Atlas/Peak ESR meter which I have yet to get to grips with. I
figured it was worth acquiring since I have a ton of stuff that uses
electrolytics awaiting repair.
I still haven't worked out, however, why it is that this meter can
perform ESR measurments in circuit whereas for capacitance one has to
lift a lead. There's probably some obvious answer to this conundrum I'm
overlooking.

 

[John-Del]

On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 1:17:42 AM UTC-4, PHALLUS-SON wrote:

** FYI: I happen to be a personal friend of Bob Parker, the designer of the famous "Dick Smith" ESR meter.

If I call Bob Parker, do you *really* think he'd admit to being your friend? Do you think anyone would? LOL!!

** Then you will be fucking up a perfectly good Wiki with asinine crap.



.... Phallus-son

Well, looks like someone already beat me to it. From Wikipedia:

Limitations
An ESR meter does not measure the capacitance of a capacitor; the capacitor must be disconnected from the circuit and measured with a capacitance meter (or a multimeter with this capability). Excessive ESR is far more likely to be an identified problem with aluminium electrolytics rather than out-of-tolerance capacitance, which is rare in capacitors with acceptable ESR.

See if you can understand the words "far more likely" and "rare" in the above. They mean that Phallus-son hasn't seen everything nor does he know everything. But you've been consistent over the years; you've NEVER admitted being wrong once.

 

[RobertMacy]

On Sun, 26 Apr 2015 07:33:59 -0700, Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com>
wrote:

....snip....
I still haven't worked out, however, why it is that this meter can
perform ESR measurments in circuit whereas for capacitance one has to
lift a lead. There's probably some obvious answer to this conundrum I'm
overlooking.

If checking BOTH capacitance and ESR in situ is important, I highly
recommend using your soundcard, properly. You can set the drive
arbitrarily to fairly smmll values which don't turn on adjacent
semiconductor components [well, sometime] and the parallel impedances
floating around connected to the cap won't show up very much.

I compared in situ readings to 'removed' readings, after using my
soundcard and found very little difference in values.

This was done using MULTIPLE frequency points AND fairly long run lengths
of 4800 or 9600 24 bit samples, with the ability to extend run-lengths to
19200, with results appearing each second. Measure over the spectrum of
10Hz to 89kHz and there is a wealth of information.

Seems like a few seconds in situ beats unsoldering/soldering a component
buried where you can't even adequately get at it.

Plus, if you already have a high quality soundcard, your investment in
instrumentation is low, really low.

 

[Phil Allison]

Cursitor Doom wrote:

I have the Atlas/Peak ESR meter which I have yet to get to grips with. I
figured it was worth acquiring since I have a ton of stuff that uses
electrolytics awaiting repair.

I still haven't worked out, however, why it is that this meter can
perform ESR measurments in circuit whereas for capacitance one has to
lift a lead. There's probably some obvious answer to this conundrum I'm
overlooking.

** The ESR test involves using a 100kHz signal and computing the impedance of the cap at that frequency. This equates closely with the true ESR for almost any electro in the range specified. Ideally, the frequency would be variable and the lowest impedance found would then be the exact ESR reading.

Luckily, this kind of test only places a small voltage ( millivolts) on the cap and impedance readings are normally under 5 ohms, so can be done in circuit with little or no effect from what might be in parallel with the cap.

Trick is, you have to have a good idea what the ESR of the particular cap was when new so you can see if it has risen significantly. Comparison with new caps of the same size, value, voltage and grade (low ESR or normal)is the best method. Reference to published tables is a very poor method.

Testing the capacitance of an *electro* is another matter and usually involves using a fixed DC current and measuring the rate of voltage rise on the cap. Resistors and semiconductor junctions in parallel with the electro will cause current to be drawn away an so you get false readings.



..... Phil