Old wiring repair youtubes

On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 21:01:49 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:
NT:

That's just funny. In UK we use those choc blocks almost entirely, and wire nuts are banned here. We have less electrical fires then the US as a result.

That is what happens when one is a first-user of a technology. Electrical wiring from central (regulated) suppliers on a common scheme began in the US in/around 1911, with major cities joining in the grid through the next ten years or so. Rural Electrification began in earnest in 1936 and by 1940, the 'grid' was available to the entire US.

Regulated mains power to a common standard was not made available to the common people in GB until starting in 1926, making GB about 15 years behind the US, and much slower on the uptake moving forward. Pretty much everything done in the US was brand-new for the first 15 years or so - and the rest of the world learned from it.

The unified electrical standard didn't complete here until about 1960. It was a slow business.

> Our house was built in 1890, first wired in 1913, and substantially expanded (both the house and the wiring) in 1928. In 2005, the main service was upgraded and grounded wiring extended throughout the house to all branch-circuits and GFCI devices installed in all 'wet' locations - must have cost a fortune!

1928 wiring in 2005 would be unthinkable here. Haven't seen anything that old since one exceptional commercial property in the 80s. It was an instant inspection condemnation.


> Squigs - as I leaned to call the through-wire devices you are referring to - are fine if they can be screwed down as a terminal strip (and they are approved in that application. But as individual joints, they are quite dangerous.

I'm not buying it at all. We use them all the time.

> Wire nuts, properly installed, are far tougher and make a far better connection than a single screw bearing on two conductors in a small opening. Twist together first (good mechanical connection), cut square or on a very slight angle, then install the correctly sized wire-nut, very tight. I have done (easily) tens of thousands, and I carried at least five different sizes on any given job. Were signal-wiring involved, that would be four more sizes.

They were banned here in '55, but I lack further info on that.


NT

 

On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 22:37:50 UTC, Gareth Magennis wrote:

wrote in message
news:e5a8fc20-2faa-4dee-a379-09664f31297d@googlegroups.com...

On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 2:48:53 PM UTC-5, Gareth Magennis wrote:


I suspect the OP is referring to these.
In the UK they are commonly known as Choc Block connectors.

http://cpc.farnell.com/hellermanntyton/cs15nt/terminal-block-polyethylene-16a/dp/CB15474?CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-GEN-SHOPPING-HELLERMANNTYTON-CB15474&gross_price=true&mckv=swQRURloc_dc|pcrid|72935675177|kword||match||plid||pid|CB15474|&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg5WglMbk1wIVzLztCh05NQvYEAQYASABEgLGEfD_BwE



They emphatically *DO NOT* meet the US NEC code for branch-wiring - and
would be quite dangerous in such an application. Without seeing the actual
situation in front of my eyes, I would not dare to opine on a solution. But,
if it were my house, and I could not splice safely in the wall-box, I would
bite the bullet and go back to the nearest box or back to the panel. It is
*JUST NOT WORTH THE RISK* to do any less. I worked my way through school as
an electrician, mostly doing old-work repairs and installations in an old
city. A good number of the houses I worked in were first wired within a
couple of years of 1913, and I learned the are of the "fish wire" from two
experts.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA



********************************************

Interesting.

Can you specify what exactly is the problem with using these connectors?


Gareth.

They are occasionally found loose. Whether that's due to bad installation or working loose who knows.


NT

 

[Michael A Terrell]

vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:

I got a switch that needs replacing but I'm afraid because the last time I
replaced it the wires were old and the tips broke and i had almost no wire to
use. An electrician chum told me about scothclock and I got two spools of
wire (I didn't last time) but I'd like to see some videos to build up my
confidence. BION last time I was so lost, it was late at night and I prayed
for half an hour before I got it to work. Much obliged

Th proper name is 3M Scotchlocks:
<https://www.google.com/search?num=100&newwindow=1&safe=off&client=firefox-b-1&q=3m+scotch+locks&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwih4a3W5uXXAhUPNd8KHX4dApsQvwUIJigA&biw=1434&bih=908>

 

[John-Del]

On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 10:10:56 PM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 20:54:37 UTC, John-Del wrote:
On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 3:30:48 PM UTC-5, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 20:20:11 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:
On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 2:48:53 PM UTC-5, Gareth Magennis wrote:


I suspect the OP is referring to these.
In the UK they are commonly known as Choc Block connectors.

http://cpc.farnell.com/hellermanntyton/cs15nt/terminal-block-polyethylene-16a/dp/CB15474?CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-GEN-SHOPPING-HELLERMANNTYTON-CB15474&gross_price=true&mckv=swQRURloc_dc|pcrid|72935675177|kword||match||plid||pid|CB15474|&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg5WglMbk1wIVzLztCh05NQvYEAQYASABEgLGEfD_BwE



They emphatically *DO NOT* meet the US NEC code for branch-wiring - and would be quite dangerous in such an application.

That's just funny. In UK we use those choc blocks almost entirely, and wire nuts are banned here. We have less electrical fires then the US as a result.


NT

Context? If we're talking total numbers that wouldn't surprise me as the U.S. is far larger than the U.K. If you mean less electrical fires by percentile I'd like to see a citation.

Percentage. It was a while ago I looked it up, US is known for its worse stats on infant mortality and electrical fires. It's way too late to look them up right now.


NT

Well, I'm too lazy to look it up myself...

Assuming the citation was correct, there could be a of factors. The first is one Peter pointed out; the U.S. was wired early and without codes. A lot of that wiring still exists and even if thoughtfully wired, is still a hundred years old. Back in the 80s we rented a store front that was still cap and tube wiring from the 1920s, and the new owner wanted us to sign a triple net lease (which means we were liable for any repairs to this late 19th century building, including the wiring and plumbing). Both still were serviceable but we left and bought our own building.

The large city closest to me uses special equipment for detecting electrical fires. The city includes a large percentage of homes that were built in the late 1800s through the early 1900s. The fire department has infrared scanners that they use to detect heat behind walls during a survey of old wiring.

Second thought is the definition of electrical fire and the cause. I don't know if there's an international watchdog commission that compiles the data or if the data is submitted by each country independently. Perhaps the definition of what exactly constitutes electrical fires.

I don't know about the U.K., but we have a lot of dullards here that run extension cords to high wattage electrical supplemental heaters for when they can't afford a tank of heating oil or propane. So I wonder how many of these failures are from external misuse or internal infrastructure failures. I can't tell you how many times I've pointed out worn out wall sockets or melted three way extension cords that were ready to burst into flames to customers when doing home service.

 

On Thursday, 30 November 2017 13:14:06 UTC, John-Del wrote:

On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 10:10:56 PM UTC-5, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 20:54:37 UTC, John-Del wrote:
On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 3:30:48 PM UTC-5, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 20:20:11 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:
On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 2:48:53 PM UTC-5, Gareth Magennis wrote:


I suspect the OP is referring to these.
In the UK they are commonly known as Choc Block connectors.

http://cpc.farnell.com/hellermanntyton/cs15nt/terminal-block-polyethylene-16a/dp/CB15474?CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-GEN-SHOPPING-HELLERMANNTYTON-CB15474&gross_price=true&mckv=swQRURloc_dc|pcrid|72935675177|kword||match||plid||pid|CB15474|&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg5WglMbk1wIVzLztCh05NQvYEAQYASABEgLGEfD_BwE



They emphatically *DO NOT* meet the US NEC code for branch-wiring - and would be quite dangerous in such an application.

That's just funny. In UK we use those choc blocks almost entirely, and wire nuts are banned here. We have less electrical fires then the US as a result.


NT

Context? If we're talking total numbers that wouldn't surprise me as the U.S. is far larger than the U.K. If you mean less electrical fires by percentile I'd like to see a citation.

Percentage. It was a while ago I looked it up, US is known for its worse stats on infant mortality and electrical fires. It's way too late to look them up right now.


NT

Well, I'm too lazy to look it up myself...

Assuming the citation was correct, there could be a of factors. The first is one Peter pointed out; the U.S. was wired early and without codes. A lot of that wiring still exists and even if thoughtfully wired, is still a hundred years old. Back in the 80s we rented a store front that was still cap and tube wiring from the 1920s, and the new owner wanted us to sign a triple net lease (which means we were liable for any repairs to this late 19th century building, including the wiring and plumbing). Both still were serviceable but we left and bought our own building.

Our pre-50s wiring has pretty much all gone now. The rubber used was evidently inferior to the US stuff, when encountering 50s wiring in the 80s it was always in a terrible state with a lot of the rubber insulation fallen off.. K&T may be ancient but from what I've seen (on the net) of it it appears to be basically sound in design. Our pre-55 wiring generally wasn't.


> The large city closest to me uses special equipment for detecting electrical fires. The city includes a large percentage of homes that were built in the late 1800s through the early 1900s. The fire department has infrared scanners that they use to detect heat behind walls during a survey of old wiring.

We don't have that, but testing resistances of circuits accomplishes much the same thing. Also the police here do infra red flyovers and sometimes pick up on excess heat. I assume they're looking for drug farms.

Second thought is the definition of electrical fire and the cause. I don't know if there's an international watchdog commission that compiles the data or if the data is submitted by each country independently. Perhaps the definition of what exactly constitutes electrical fires.

I don't know about the U.K., but we have a lot of dullards here that run extension cords to high wattage electrical supplemental heaters for when they can't afford a tank of heating oil or propane. So I wonder how many of these failures are from external misuse or internal infrastructure failures.. I can't tell you how many times I've pointed out worn out wall sockets or melted three way extension cords that were ready to burst into flames to customers when doing home service.

From what I've seen of US wiring the reason seems pretty obvious, most of it is done to lower safety standards than here. The only odd thing is that Americans seem unable to accept that. Typically they lapse into being abusive when such things are pointed out.


NT

 

[bud--]

On 11/29/2017 2:20 PM, pfjw@aol.com wrote:

On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 2:48:53 PM UTC-5, Gareth Magennis wrote:


I suspect the OP is referring to these.
In the UK they are commonly known as Choc Block connectors.

http://cpc.farnell.com/hellermanntyton/cs15nt/terminal-block-polyethylene-16a/dp/CB15474?CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-GEN-SHOPPING-HELLERMANNTYTON-CB15474&gross_price=true&mckv=swQRURloc_dc|pcrid|72935675177|kword||match||plid||pid|CB15474|&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg5WglMbk1wIVzLztCh05NQvYEAQYASABEgLGEfD_BwE



They emphatically *DO NOT* meet the US NEC code for branch-wiring - and would be quite dangerous in such an application.

I have no idea what that is based on (other than they aren't listed by
UL/equivalent).

Compare to
http://www.kinginnovation.com/products/20/3-port-alumiconn
I believe these are the US equivalent of choc block. They are UL listed.
They are, as far as I know, the safest readily available splice method
for #12 and #10 (15 and 20 amp) aluminum wire or aluminum to copper.
(Also copper to copper.)

-------------------------------
Twisting wire with wire nuts - sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I am
careful putting wirenuts on and if I don't twist them I still don't have
problems. Twisting is not required by manufacturers, UL, or the NEC.
Your option.

-----------------------------
Most wirenuts have a metal spring that bites into the wires. In some
('live-spring') the spring can expand over the wires. Others it is fixed
size in a hard plastic shell. I think the live spring ones are much more
reliable and are the only ones I use. (Except not available for signal
wires.) Wirenuts have readily available specs for how many wires they
are made for, and those specs should be followed religiously.

--------------------------------------
I am real leery about using "push-in' connectors.
That comes from "back-stab" switches and receptacles, which are not
reliable. (The ones available now only work with #14 wire - #12 was
eliminated.)

---------------------------------------------
I find my (whatever) is better than your (whatever) arguments to be
boring. And if you look at the details, may be not true.

> Without seeing the actual situation in front of my eyes, I would not dare to opine on a solution. But, if it were my house, and I could not splice safely in the wall-box, I would bite the bullet and go back to the nearest box or back to the panel.

That can be quite time consuming and expensive. The question of course
is whether you can splice safely. If the insulation is not damaged I
usually can.

bud--
(licensed electrician)

It is *JUST NOT WORTH THE RISK* to do any less. I worked my way through school as an electrician, mostly doing old-work repairs and installations in an old city. A good number of the houses I worked in were first wired within a couple of years of 1913, and I learned the are of the "fish wire" from two experts.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

 

[Ron D.]

Ideal got rid of these Term-a-nuts that I really loved. With mot new work being in plastic boxes, there probably isn't the demand anymore.

The ones with the wire ends work nicely with ceiling fixtures, giving you three easy flexible drop wires.

The ones with the spade lugs help with outlets and it gets rid of the outlet making the daisy chain connections at least for N and ground. It was plain ole easy.

Upgrades were done in the house for polarized two prong with a grounded box to polarized 3 prong, but there are no threaded ground holes on the metal boxes of the 1960's. So, with the necessity to ground both the box and the outlet, it's a messy connection. You could use the term a nut and put the two grounds together from the daisy chain (Stranded #12) which terminates with a fork terminal which goes to the outlet. A sold pigtail with a ground clip makes a 3-wire ground connection with the other end under the ground clip.

The builders basically twisted the Romex grounds from two pieces of Romex (non plastic insulated) and placed then under a screw that moved the Romex strain relief plate.

That connection may not be gas tight (no wirenut), so you can loose that ground. It's not nice to loose grounds.

So, that's happened. Another thing that recently happened is I replaced an duplex outlet with a high quality tamper-proof one (electrical supply store) and the box was a mm too small and the wires touched the side of the box 2 years later. It was really stupid the way the outlet was designed. The mfr said, it has to allow a #12 under the screw and not touch the sides. But a mm short was too short. The duplex outlet could move from side to side and touch the screws. The Term-a-nut reduces that distance too.

I mounted a small string level on an go/no-go outlet tester (The neon wired correctly kind) and that very easily allows me to set the duplex receptacles level.

Ther term-a-nuts make it easy to remove the outlets before painting too. The wires are easier to stuff in the box.

Now, the NEC requires neutrals in every box. So, you need neutrals in the boxes that contain switches.

 

This video is perfect, except I'm worried I may not have room to strip.
But I can strip with a razor blade.

I got scotch lock (the traditional twist connectors, which I sometimes tape
to stabilise - and I have used since I was a toddler) and "chocolate bars"
(the plug in crimps) confused. I am also curious about straight thru crimps,
which may be the best for this job. I don't remember these things, am I right
12 guage will do?

I was a toddler when my mom's brothers were studying electrical engineering,
just before we all moved into this house in 1965. So I have a feel for these
things, just that I don't do it often enough and I need to be more careful
because I live here. The wirings is therefore 1965. Hey, I've seen worse: I
was part of a committee that chose computers for a hundred year old building
in the 1980s and we needed UPS because everything was blowing.

Thanks to all

In <ovmjjv$jjt$1@dont-email.me> by Taxed and Spent <nospamplease@nonospam.com> on Wed, 29 Nov 2017 10:26:59 we perused:
*+-On 11/27/2017 1:45 PM, vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
*+-> I got a switch that needs replacing but I'm afraid because the last time I
*+-> replaced it the wires were old and the tips broke and i had almost no wire to
*+-> use. An electrician chum told me about scothclock and I got two spools of
*+-> wire (I didn't last time) but I'd like to see some videos to build up my
*+-> confidence. BION last time I was so lost, it was late at night and I prayed
*+-> for half an hour before I got it to work. Much obliged
*+->


*+-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmDj6i4pGDQ


- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus
blog: panix.com/~vjp2/ruminatn.htm - = - web: panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
facebook.com/vasjpan2 - linkedin.com/in/vasjpan02 - biostrategist.com
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Friday, December 8, 2017 at 9:38:55 AM UTC-5, vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:

This video is perfect, except I'm worried I may not have room to strip.
But I can strip with a razor blade.

https://www.amazon.com/Ginsco-Terminals-Self-stripping-Insulated-Disconnects/dp/B01CDWC60Y

There are these. Would not be my first choice, but might get you out of trouble.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <3a6debf6-0a40-4732-b677-8c7e011a79fb@googlegroups.com>,
tabbypurr@gmail.com says...

On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 22:37:50 UTC, Gareth Magennis wrote:
wrote in message
news:e5a8fc20-2faa-4dee-a379-09664f31297d@googlegroups.com...

On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 2:48:53 PM UTC-5, Gareth Magennis wrote:


I suspect the OP is referring to these.
In the UK they are commonly known as Choc Block connectors.



Can you specify what exactly is the problem with using these connectors?


Gareth.

They are occasionally found loose. Whether that's due to bad installation or working loose who knows.


NT

Where I worked we had many thousands of connectors of the screw down
types. During an upgrade to equipment close to 1000 of the connectors
were used on # 14 wire. During the checkout part we found about 30 to
40 of them loose enough the equipment would not work. Several were
found that either the insulation was not stripped far enough back the
wires would not make connection or not at all .

There are contless thousands of wire nuts used. Seldom a problem with
them. They are on wires from about # 22 to about # 8 wire. Used from
24 volts to 480 volt 3 phase wiring.

I never twist the wires before putting the wire nuts on. The
instructions say they can be twisted,but not needed for the ones we use.

 

On Friday, 15 December 2017 22:38:34 UTC, Ralph Mowery wrote:

In article <3a6debf6-0a40-4732-b677-8c7e011a79fb@googlegroups.com>,
tabbypurr says...
On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 22:37:50 UTC, Gareth Magennis wrote:
news:e5a8fc20-2faa-4dee-a379-09664f31297d@googlegroups.com...
On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 2:48:53 PM UTC-5, Gareth Magennis wrote:

I suspect the OP is referring to these.
In the UK they are commonly known as Choc Block connectors.

Can you specify what exactly is the problem with using these connectors?

They are occasionally found loose. Whether that's due to bad installation or working loose who knows.

Where I worked we had many thousands of connectors of the screw down
types. During an upgrade to equipment close to 1000 of the connectors
were used on # 14 wire. During the checkout part we found about 30 to
40 of them loose enough the equipment would not work. Several were
found that either the insulation was not stripped far enough back the
wires would not make connection or not at all .

There are contless thousands of wire nuts used. Seldom a problem with
them. They are on wires from about # 22 to about # 8 wire. Used from
24 volts to 480 volt 3 phase wiring.

I never twist the wires before putting the wire nuts on. The
instructions say they can be twisted,but not needed for the ones we use.

Both types cause fires, the US with wire nuts has worse stats, or did last time I looked.

I very much suspect the future will be spot welding.


NT

 

[amdx]

On 12/15/2017 8:02 PM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, 15 December 2017 22:38:34 UTC, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article <3a6debf6-0a40-4732-b677-8c7e011a79fb@googlegroups.com>,
tabbypurr says...
On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 22:37:50 UTC, Gareth Magennis wrote:
news:e5a8fc20-2faa-4dee-a379-09664f31297d@googlegroups.com...
On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 2:48:53 PM UTC-5, Gareth Magennis wrote:

I suspect the OP is referring to these.
In the UK they are commonly known as Choc Block connectors.

Can you specify what exactly is the problem with using these connectors?

They are occasionally found loose. Whether that's due to bad installation or working loose who knows.

Where I worked we had many thousands of connectors of the screw down
types. During an upgrade to equipment close to 1000 of the connectors
were used on # 14 wire. During the checkout part we found about 30 to
40 of them loose enough the equipment would not work. Several were
found that either the insulation was not stripped far enough back the
wires would not make connection or not at all .

There are contless thousands of wire nuts used. Seldom a problem with
them. They are on wires from about # 22 to about # 8 wire. Used from
24 volts to 480 volt 3 phase wiring.

I never twist the wires before putting the wire nuts on. The
instructions say they can be twisted,but not needed for the ones we use.

Both types cause fires, the US with wire nuts has worse stats, or did last time I looked.

I very much suspect the future will be spot welding.


NT

I would throw in the 240V and 120V difference, you have 1/2 the
current heating up any poor connections that may cause a fire.
I once created a problem that could have been a fire.
I added two freezers at the end of a circuit, There was not many other
loads on the branch, a TV and some lights. It al worked fine, and never
popped a breaker.
One evening I got a whiff of a burning smell, but could not locate
anything. A day or two later, I got it again, and it last a little
longer. I found the plug on my TV was hot, from there I tore the panel
off the wall and found the bakelite box crumbling. The box had two wires
on the screw terminals and after 30 years, developed a poor connection.
When the two freezers ran at the same time the poor connection heated
the outlet, the box and what was plugged into the box.
I had to cut the wire back about 12 inches because of the over heating.
Mikek

 

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 5:07:56 PM UTC-8, Ron D. wrote:

Upgrades were done in the house for polarized two prong with a grounded box to polarized 3 prong...
The builders basically twisted the Romex grounds from two pieces of Romex (non plastic insulated) and placed then under a screw that moved the Romex strain relief plate.

That connection may not be gas tight (no wirenut), so you can loose that ground. It's not nice to loose grounds.

The twisted connection ought ALSO to have a pigtail that goes to the socket or ground
screw on the switch. When the socket or switch is installed, the box is grounded THAT way.
So, even if 'loose' attacks the relief-plate connection, we can hope for safe grounding.

 

On Saturday, 16 December 2017 23:54:52 UTC, amdx wrote:

On 12/15/2017 8:02 PM, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 15 December 2017 22:38:34 UTC, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article <3a6debf6-0a40-4732-b677-8c7e011a79fb@googlegroups.com>,
tabbypurr says...
On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 22:37:50 UTC, Gareth Magennis wrote:
news:e5a8fc20-2faa-4dee-a379-09664f31297d@googlegroups.com...
On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 2:48:53 PM UTC-5, Gareth Magennis wrote:

I suspect the OP is referring to these.
In the UK they are commonly known as Choc Block connectors.

Can you specify what exactly is the problem with using these connectors?

They are occasionally found loose. Whether that's due to bad installation or working loose who knows.

Where I worked we had many thousands of connectors of the screw down
types. During an upgrade to equipment close to 1000 of the connectors
were used on # 14 wire. During the checkout part we found about 30 to
40 of them loose enough the equipment would not work. Several were
found that either the insulation was not stripped far enough back the
wires would not make connection or not at all .

There are contless thousands of wire nuts used. Seldom a problem with
them. They are on wires from about # 22 to about # 8 wire. Used from
24 volts to 480 volt 3 phase wiring.

I never twist the wires before putting the wire nuts on. The
instructions say they can be twisted,but not needed for the ones we use.

Both types cause fires, the US with wire nuts has worse stats, or did last time I looked.

I very much suspect the future will be spot welding.


NT

I would throw in the 240V and 120V difference, you have 1/2 the
current heating up any poor connections that may cause a fire.

there are several differences, making it hard to pin down what causes what. Rings versus radials, different connectors, different breaker profiles, different levels of RCD/GFCI coverage, different margins, different plug/socket designs etc etc. Ring circuits give us a real safety advantage and our plugs are much better, the other differences are less clear.


NT