Ocean Gate Titan May Have Imploded Due To Crew Banging On Hull...

[Fred Bloggs]

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same type. \"

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Future manned submersibles\" from these idiots sounds unlikely. They
should have tested it to 8000 meters.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same type. \"

Was.

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html

I\'d expect that carbon fiber is strong in tension, which is what a
pressurized airplane or a hydrogen tank needs. But in compression? You
seem the same effect in wood, stronger in tension than compression
because it can buckle.

What is the appeal of \"adventure tourism\" ? Is the cost proportional
to one\'s chance of dying?

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 7:55:54 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan..

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.
\"Future manned submersibles\" from these idiots sounds unlikely. They
should have tested it to 8000 meters.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same type. \"
Was.


https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html

I\'d expect that carbon fiber is strong in tension, which is what a
pressurized airplane or a hydrogen tank needs. But in compression? You
seem the same effect in wood, stronger in tension than compression
because it can buckle.

And how does fiber in tension resist a force perpendicular to its surface. Reports say it\'s 5 inches thick.

What is the appeal of \"adventure tourism\" ? Is the cost proportional
to one\'s chance of dying?

They put a lot of money into that search. Some of those vessels are more than a million daily to keep at sea. The search aircraft are another pricey hourly cost, stacked up a lot of hours.

 

[server]

On 6/22/23 22:50, Fred Bloggs wrote:

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same type.\"

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html

Concern here after the initial missing report was possible failure
modes. For example, repeated extreme pressure cycles and how that
might partially delaminate the composite hull over time. Different
scenario but reminded of the UK Comet aircraft, where repeated
pressure cycles caused metal fatigue and eventual catastrophic
failure. What also amazes me is the apparent lack of regulatory
oversight and the absence of demonstrable recovery capability in
the event of any major system failure. On a wing and a prayer
indeed and the Titanic claims yet more victims...

Chris

 

[bud--]

On 6/22/2023 4:50 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash.

Does anyone who know anything about submersibles share that opinion.

Navy (?) reports buoys hearing a sound consistent with implosion a
little after communication was lost. Implosion should not be surprising

Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same type.\"

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same type. \"

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_incident

\"In a 2022 dive to the Titanic, one of the thrusters on the Titan was
accidentally installed backwards and the submersible started spinning
in circles when trying to move forward near the sea floor. As
documented by the BBC documentary Take Me to Titanic, the issue was
bypassed by steering while holding the game controller sideways.\"

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in
<3ebd5497-c5a7-429f-8e06-3ba7866629edn@googlegroups.com>:

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A sp=
ontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and=
panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you sta=
rt a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to b=
e impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center i=
n Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vesse=
l could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conduc=
ted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible t=
o 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement senso=
r and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the h=
ull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the tw=
o processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the subm=
ersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on t=
he hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a =
problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fib=
er and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same ty=
pe. \"

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-t=
itanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submer=
sible-16233802.html

Carbon fiber in boats has a previous history of disaster:
https://no-frills-sailing.com/carbon-fibers-simply-dont-like-slamming/

5 people \'that must sit quiet\' ?? No way fighting for a window view !
\'No communication\' Using a long thin glassfiber cannot be that difficult, video + audio??
Hope they have a video-audio recorder that shows what happens,
That kid in the passenger list looked a bit weird to me, maybe started jumping or something.

Seems all sort of corners were cut regarding safety.
WTF do people take a chance like that and even pay for it?

OK, I would fly to Mars if the tickets were 5 $ and many went before me and they had good restaurants there.
But there had to be something useful there for me to even consider going.
But just to join the Titanics corpses?
Same for Himalaya climbers fallin and skiing, breaking legs.

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:37:27 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
3ebd5497-c5a7-429f...@googlegroups.com>:

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A sp=
ontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and=
panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you sta=
rt a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to b> >e impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center i> >n Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan..

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vesse> >l could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conduc=
ted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible t=
o 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement senso=
r and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the h=
ull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the tw=
o processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the subm=
ersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on t=
he hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a > >problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fib=
er and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same ty=
pe. \"

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-t=
itanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submer=
sible-16233802.html

Carbon fiber in boats has a previous history of disaster:
https://no-frills-sailing.com/carbon-fibers-simply-dont-like-slamming/

5 people \'that must sit quiet\' ?? No way fighting for a window view !
\'No communication\' Using a long thin glassfiber cannot be that difficult, video + audio??
Hope they have a video-audio recorder that shows what happens,
That kid in the passenger list looked a bit weird to me, maybe started jumping or something.

Seems all sort of corners were cut regarding safety.
WTF do people take a chance like that and even pay for it?

OK, I would fly to Mars if the tickets were 5 $ and many went before me and they had good restaurants there.

How good? Do they have to have Michelin stars?

But there had to be something useful there for me to even consider going.
But just to join the Titanics corpses?
Same for Himalaya climbers fallin and skiing, breaking legs.

Yeah, some people just don\'t get it.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:27:25 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 7:55:54 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.
\"Future manned submersibles\" from these idiots sounds unlikely. They
should have tested it to 8000 meters.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same type. \"
Was.


https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html

I\'d expect that carbon fiber is strong in tension, which is what a
pressurized airplane or a hydrogen tank needs. But in compression? You
seem the same effect in wood, stronger in tension than compression
because it can buckle.
And how does fiber in tension resist a force perpendicular to its surface.. Reports say it\'s 5 inches thick.

That\'s just basic statics. Read a sophomore text book on the topic. They should have a good example of analyzing an I-beam. Same concept.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Martin Brown]

On 23/06/2023 05:01, bud-- wrote:

On 6/22/2023 4:50 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing.
A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a
desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make
noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone
in a flash.

Does anyone who know anything about submersibles share that opinion.

Navy (?) reports buoys hearing a sound consistent with implosion a
little after communication was lost. Implosion should not be surprising

Implosion is more or less guaranteed once hull integrity is breached.

What is less clear is why did the vessel actually fail so quickly that
the crew had no chance to raise the alarm. If the timeline is correct
they apparently lost comms first which suggests that it failed in two steps:

Initial single point failure - loss of comms
Implosion - big bang

The key to the mystery is finding the initial single point failure
(likely to be a fine crack or pinhole).

Water cuts like a knife through butter at these sorts of pressures.

--
Martin Brown

 

[John Walliker]

On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 05:52:46 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:27:25 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 7:55:54 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.
\"Future manned submersibles\" from these idiots sounds unlikely. They
should have tested it to 8000 meters.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same type. \"
Was.


https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html

I\'d expect that carbon fiber is strong in tension, which is what a
pressurized airplane or a hydrogen tank needs. But in compression? You
seem the same effect in wood, stronger in tension than compression
because it can buckle.
And how does fiber in tension resist a force perpendicular to its surface. Reports say it\'s 5 inches thick.
That\'s just basic statics. Read a sophomore text book on the topic. They should have a good example of analyzing an I-beam. > Same concept.

Perhaps closer to the real situation there is plenty of analysis of Euler instability
in cylindrical structures. For example:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/41167884.pdf

John

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Jun 2023 21:51:16 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<d3c7ddc9-98a9-4bfe-9d21-9eb437348002n@googlegroups.com>:

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:37:27 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred B=
loggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
3ebd5497-c5a7-429f...@googlegroups.com>:

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A=
sp=
ontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate =
and=
panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you =
sta=
rt a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going t=
o b=
e impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Cente=
r i=
n Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan=
.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure ve=
sse=
l could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team con=
duc=
ted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersibl=
e t=
o 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement se=
nso=
r and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of th=
e h=
ull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the=
tw=
o processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the s=
ubm=
ersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback o=
n t=
he hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had=
a =
problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon =
fib=
er and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same=
ty=
pe. \"

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fibe=
r-t=
itanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-sub=
mer=
sible-16233802.html

Carbon fiber in boats has a previous history of disaster:
https://no-frills-sailing.com/carbon-fibers-simply-dont-like-slamming/

5 people \'that must sit quiet\' ?? No way fighting for a window view !
\'No communication\' Using a long thin glassfiber cannot be that difficult,=
video + audio??
Hope they have a video-audio recorder that shows what happens,
That kid in the passenger list looked a bit weird to me, maybe started ju=
mping or something.

Seems all sort of corners were cut regarding safety.
WTF do people take a chance like that and even pay for it?

OK, I would fly to Mars if the tickets were 5 $ and many went before me a=
nd they had good restaurants there.

How good? Do they have to have Michelin stars?

Hard to tell, reports from people who were there and returned would do...
Mc Donalds on Mars? LOL

But there had to be something useful there for me to even consider going.=

But just to join the Titanics corpses?
Same for Himalaya climbers fallin and skiing, breaking legs.

Yeah, some people just don\'t get it.

There is a chance in everything, been on a flight from Spain to the Netherlands when
15 minutes or so after takeoff we got an engine on fire.
Circled to dump fuel, landed safely back in Spain, people applauded
but then .. before takeoff I did see a pool of what looked like oil under that engine..
but thought: \"They would have checked\", captain just entered
did not even walk around the plane...
So last time from here to the UK and back I just took a boat, stayed on deck...
Did not even make much difference as far as time is concerned.
A 747 cargo plane flew into the flat next to where I used to live 4 years after I left there for same
reason, once did see 2 big headlights coming at me at the ninth floor... plane just went over...
No chance of escape .. Had a chat about that back then at work..
So many strange things happen, there used to be red warning lights on the water tower here, don\'t see those any more
since they did maintenance there...
Some plane came over a few days ago really low..... F35? Noisy piece of crap.
I do seem to know things before ... I do have a theory or say impression that past and future are all known.
That already from very young age upwards.
Are we all part of a field?
What is time? We know so little.
https://www.thebeatles.com/all-you-need-love-0
\"
There\'s nothing you can know that isn\'t known.
Nothing you can see that isn\'t shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn\'t where you\'re meant to be. It\'s easy
\"
I knew that thing had imploded, said it here several times,
now I did see on CNN that they had already detected a bang when communication stopped
and maybe the each half hour knocking noises was likely something else.
A person would have ticked an SOS every few minutes, give more info if he had known Morse code.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:31:49 PM UTC-4, \"tridac ...@gfsys.com wrote:

On 6/22/23 22:50, Fred Bloggs wrote:
The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same type.\"

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html

Concern here after the initial missing report was possible failure
modes. For example, repeated extreme pressure cycles and how that
might partially delaminate the composite hull over time. Different
scenario but reminded of the UK Comet aircraft, where repeated
pressure cycles caused metal fatigue and eventual catastrophic
failure. What also amazes me is the apparent lack of regulatory
oversight and the absence of demonstrable recovery capability in
the event of any major system failure. On a wing and a prayer
indeed and the Titanic claims yet more victims...

Chris

It\'s the same composite Boeing has been using for well over a decade on a variety of aircraft. Its properties should be very well known by now.

IIRC the Comet failure was caused by poorly done rivet holes at the window frames during manufacture. Cycling the pressure caused fractures to form, grow, from the holes, and eventually cause an in-flight catastrophe at some kind of hatch cover on top of the fuselage near the cockpit.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 11:38:22 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan..

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same type. \"

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_incident

\"In a 2022 dive to the Titanic, one of the thrusters on the Titan was
accidentally installed backwards and the submersible started spinning
in circles when trying to move forward near the sea floor. As
documented by the BBC documentary Take Me to Titanic, the issue was
bypassed by steering while holding the game controller sideways.\"

The whole thing sounds more and more like a mentor-less undergraduate engineering group project where nobody knows what they\'re doing.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:31:49 PM UTC-4, \"tridac ...@gfsys.com wrote:

On 6/22/23 22:50, Fred Bloggs wrote:
The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same type.\"

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html

Concern here after the initial missing report was possible failure
modes. For example, repeated extreme pressure cycles and how that
might partially delaminate the composite hull over time. Different
scenario but reminded of the UK Comet aircraft, where repeated
pressure cycles caused metal fatigue and eventual catastrophic
failure. What also amazes me is the apparent lack of regulatory
oversight and the absence of demonstrable recovery capability in
the event of any major system failure. On a wing and a prayer
indeed and the Titanic claims yet more victims...

The same documentary on the comet showed a video the British made of the effects of a sudden depressurization on instrumented dummies in a mock-up. It broke everyone\'s neck instantly, totally unsurvivable.

Chris

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 3:19:50 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

On 23/06/2023 05:01, bud-- wrote:
On 6/22/2023 4:50 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing.
A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a
desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make
noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone
in a flash.

Does anyone who know anything about submersibles share that opinion.

Navy (?) reports buoys hearing a sound consistent with implosion a
little after communication was lost. Implosion should not be surprising
Implosion is more or less guaranteed once hull integrity is breached.

What is less clear is why did the vessel actually fail so quickly that
the crew had no chance to raise the alarm. If the timeline is correct
they apparently lost comms first which suggests that it failed in two steps:

Initial single point failure - loss of comms
Implosion - big bang

The key to the mystery is finding the initial single point failure
(likely to be a fine crack or pinhole).

Water cuts like a knife through butter at these sorts of pressures.

The sea was kind of rough at the time with 30+ MPH winds and 7 foot swells. There\'s a good chance they banged into the hull of the support ship, or something sharp, when it was launched.

--
Martin Brown

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:52:46 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:27:25 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 7:55:54 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.
\"Future manned submersibles\" from these idiots sounds unlikely. They
should have tested it to 8000 meters.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same type. \"
Was.


https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html

I\'d expect that carbon fiber is strong in tension, which is what a
pressurized airplane or a hydrogen tank needs. But in compression? You
seem the same effect in wood, stronger in tension than compression
because it can buckle.
And how does fiber in tension resist a force perpendicular to its surface. Reports say it\'s 5 inches thick.
That\'s just basic statics. Read a sophomore text book on the topic. They should have a good example of analyzing an I-beam. Same concept.

Ummm- no. That\'s a ridiculous oversimplification. It\'s a highly non- linear and complex strength of materials phenomenon involving stress, strain, elasticity, yield effects, and probably bunches more.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 4:18:44 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Jun 2023 21:51:16 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
d3c7ddc9-98a9-4bfe...@googlegroups.com>:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:37:27 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred B> >loggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
3ebd5497-c5a7-429f...@googlegroups.com>:

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing.. A=
sp=
ontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate =
and=
panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you =
sta=
rt a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Going t> >o b=
e impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Cente=
r i=
n Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Titan=
.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure ve> >sse=
l could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team con=
duc=
ted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersibl=
e t=
o 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement se=
nso=
r and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of th=
e h=
ull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the=
tw=
o processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the s=
ubm=
ersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback o=
n t=
he hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer had> > a =
problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon =
fib=
er and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the same=
ty=
pe. \"

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fibe=
r-t=
itanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-sub> >mer=
sible-16233802.html

Carbon fiber in boats has a previous history of disaster:
https://no-frills-sailing.com/carbon-fibers-simply-dont-like-slamming/

5 people \'that must sit quiet\' ?? No way fighting for a window view !
\'No communication\' Using a long thin glassfiber cannot be that difficult,> > video + audio??
Hope they have a video-audio recorder that shows what happens,
That kid in the passenger list looked a bit weird to me, maybe started ju> >mping or something.

Seems all sort of corners were cut regarding safety.
WTF do people take a chance like that and even pay for it?

OK, I would fly to Mars if the tickets were 5 $ and many went before me a> >nd they had good restaurants there.

How good? Do they have to have Michelin stars?
Hard to tell, reports from people who were there and returned would do...
Mc Donalds on Mars? LOL



But there had to be something useful there for me to even consider going.
But just to join the Titanics corpses?
Same for Himalaya climbers fallin and skiing, breaking legs.

Yeah, some people just don\'t get it.
There is a chance in everything, been on a flight from Spain to the Netherlands when
15 minutes or so after takeoff we got an engine on fire.
Circled to dump fuel, landed safely back in Spain, people applauded
but then .. before takeoff I did see a pool of what looked like oil under that engine..
but thought: \"They would have checked\", captain just entered
did not even walk around the plane...
So last time from here to the UK and back I just took a boat, stayed on deck...
Did not even make much difference as far as time is concerned.
A 747 cargo plane flew into the flat next to where I used to live 4 years after I left there for same
reason, once did see 2 big headlights coming at me at the ninth floor... plane just went over...
No chance of escape .. Had a chat about that back then at work..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862

So many strange things happen, there used to be red warning lights on the water tower here, don\'t see those any more
since they did maintenance there...
Some plane came over a few days ago really low..... F35? Noisy piece of crap.
I do seem to know things before ... I do have a theory or say impression that past and future are all known.
That already from very young age upwards.
Are we all part of a field?
What is time? We know so little.
https://www.thebeatles.com/all-you-need-love-0
\"
There\'s nothing you can know that isn\'t known.
Nothing you can see that isn\'t shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn\'t where you\'re meant to be. It\'s easy
\"
I knew that thing had imploded, said it here several times,
now I did see on CNN that they had already detected a bang when communication stopped
and maybe the each half hour knocking noises was likely something else.
A person would have ticked an SOS every few minutes, give more info if he had known Morse code.

No one could have survived the implosion, or even flooding, there was no oxygen of any kind. That is according to reports anyway.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Jun 2023 04:32:27 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in
<9ccbddd8-4709-48ab-98a3-da7fada3edd6n@googlegroups.com>:

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 4:18:44 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Jun 2023 21:51:16 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky=

gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
d3c7ddc9-98a9-4bfe...@googlegroups.com>:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:37:27 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wro=
te:
On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fre=
d B=
loggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
3ebd5497-c5a7-429f...@googlegroups.com>:

The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing=
. A=
sp=
ontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a despera=
te =
and=
panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If y=
ou =
sta=
rt a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it\'s gone in a flash. Goin=
g t=
o b=
e impossible to conduct a forensics.

\" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Ce=
nte=
r i=
n Alabama on development and manufacturing.\"- may not apply to the Ti=
tan=
.

\"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure=
ve=
sse=
l could not be certified for that depth [4,000m].\"

\"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team =
con=
duc=
ted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submers=
ibl=
e t=
o 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement=
se=
nso=
r and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of=
th=
e h=
ull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between =
the=
tw=
o processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in th=
e s=
ubm=
ersible\'s auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedbac=
k o=
n t=
he hull behavior of all future manned submersibles.\"- Chief engineer =
had=
a =
problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.

\"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carb=
on =
fib=
er and titanium alloy and is the world\'s largest submersible of the s=
ame=
ty=
pe. \"

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-f=
ibe=
r-t=
itanic-worthy-submersibles/

https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-=
sub=
mer=
sible-16233802.html

Carbon fiber in boats has a previous history of disaster:
https://no-frills-sailing.com/carbon-fibers-simply-dont-like-slamming/=


5 people \'that must sit quiet\' ?? No way fighting for a window view !
\'No communication\' Using a long thin glassfiber cannot be that difficu=
lt,=
video + audio??
Hope they have a video-audio recorder that shows what happens,
That kid in the passenger list looked a bit weird to me, maybe started=
ju=
mping or something.

Seems all sort of corners were cut regarding safety.
WTF do people take a chance like that and even pay for it?

OK, I would fly to Mars if the tickets were 5 $ and many went before m=
e a=
nd they had good restaurants there.

How good? Do they have to have Michelin stars?
Hard to tell, reports from people who were there and returned would do...=

Mc Donalds on Mars? LOL



But there had to be something useful there for me to even consider goi=
ng.=

But just to join the Titanics corpses?
Same for Himalaya climbers fallin and skiing, breaking legs.

Yeah, some people just don\'t get it.
There is a chance in everything, been on a flight from Spain to the Nethe=
rlands when
15 minutes or so after takeoff we got an engine on fire.
Circled to dump fuel, landed safely back in Spain, people applauded
but then .. before takeoff I did see a pool of what looked like oil under=
that engine..
but thought: \"They would have checked\", captain just entered
did not even walk around the plane...
So last time from here to the UK and back I just took a boat, stayed on d=
eck...
Did not even make much difference as far as time is concerned.
A 747 cargo plane flew into the flat next to where I used to live 4 years=
after I left there for same
reason, once did see 2 big headlights coming at me at the ninth floor... =
plane just went over...
No chance of escape .. Had a chat about that back then at work..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862

So many strange things happen, there used to be red warning lights on the=
water tower here, don\'t see those any more
since they did maintenance there...
Some plane came over a few days ago really low..... F35? Noisy piece of c=
rap.
I do seem to know things before ... I do have a theory or say impression =
that past and future are all known.
That already from very young age upwards.
Are we all part of a field?
What is time? We know so little.
https://www.thebeatles.com/all-you-need-love-0
\"
There\'s nothing you can know that isn\'t known.
Nothing you can see that isn\'t shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn\'t where you\'re meant to be. It\'s easy
\"
I knew that thing had imploded, said it here several times,
now I did see on CNN that they had already detected a bang when communica=
tion stopped
and maybe the each half hour knocking noises was likely something else.=

A person would have ticked an SOS every few minutes, give more info if he=
had known Morse code.

No one could have survived the implosion, or even flooding, there was no ox=
ygen of any kind. That is according to reports anyway.

Yes, in case it was anything else they could have made SOS like noises.
The fact hey did not already sort of confirmed an implosion.
There are endless interviews about it now on CNN.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 23/06/2023 12:13, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:52:46 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:27:25 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 7:55:54 PM UTC-4, John Larkin
wrote:

I\'d expect that carbon fiber is strong in tension, which is
what a pressurized airplane or a hydrogen tank needs. But in
compression? You seem the same effect in wood, stronger in
tension than compression because it can buckle.

And how does fiber in tension resist a force perpendicular to its
surface. Reports say it\'s 5 inches thick.

That\'s just basic statics. Read a sophomore text book on the topic.
They should have a good example of analyzing an I-beam. Same
concept.

Except that convex smooth curves have much higher resistance to being
crushed by uniform external pressure than simpler easy to analyse
cylinder shapes. Looks to me like they had too much space inside.

Conventional design wisdom is to make manned deep diving pressure
vessels nearly spherical and as small as you can possibly get away with.

Ummm- no. That\'s a ridiculous oversimplification. It\'s a highly non-
linear and complex strength of materials phenomenon involving stress,
strain, elasticity, yield effects, and probably bunches more.

The unusual shape cannot have helped either. But I think it was probably
fine as design and something created a weak spot. Much like the failure
of that huge fish tank in Germany - wrong sort of cleaning materials or
some unrecognised minor scuff that actually went deeper than it looked.

Cylinders will crush a lot more easily than convex ovoids.

--
Martin Brown