O/T: why knot?

[RichD]

On June 11, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Then one evening shortly
before my exam, I found I couldn't remember how to tie *any* of them.
I'd be intrigued to know why, when I have such an excellent
memory in all other respects, there's just a gaping great hole
in whatever part of the brain it is that deals with tying knots.
I find the whole process of tying knots utterly baffling.

Psychology/neurology cannot yet answer such questions.
I'd guess it involves combining visualization with
muscle memory. Or the problem of visualizing a 1-D
string embedded in a 3-D space.

> Still, I suppose we *all* have our shortcomings in some area or another.

For 95% of the population, it's math.

For me, I don't know how composers do what they do.
A heavenly gift, I suppose. There was a time, I spent
several weeks trying to compose a melody. I came
up with a few ideas, but then fell into the rut of
songs I already knew, every time. I found it impossible
to clear my mind completely of familiar tunes.

It appears the conversation is drifting...

--
Rich

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 12/6/19 12:46 am, glen walpert wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 16:14:41 +1000, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 11/6/19 5:42 am, RichD wrote:
Recently I reviewed my old Boy Scout knots, and could only remember
four. Contrary to Winston Churchill's quip, it appears whiskey has
taken more out me, than I've taken out of whiskey -

So I'm looking for a list of recommended knots to learn (or re-learn).
Now you retort: why come here, just find a book, sheesh!

The problem is, those books feature 50+ knots, many of them redundant.
It's called information overload. What I need is a curator. I figure a
dozen, I could handle that. More specifically, for each knot, WHAT
FOR,
what's the application?

Why am I asking this oddball question on this board?
Cuz the IQ of this group is 20 points above the rest of the internet.
Engineers know lots of useful stuff -

Any sailors/mountaineers/horsemen here?

--
Rich


Most people know figure-8 (stop knot), bowline, sheet bend, reef knot
and clove hitch. Drop the reef knot, and add the trucker's hitch (for
tying loads) and Hunter's knot for a very strong rope-joining bend.

Especially Hunter's knot, it's awesome. Most scouts (and books) don't
even know it.

Clifford Heath.

Hunter's hitch?

I have no idea what that is. I mean Hunter's bend, not a hitch:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter's_bend>

"...stronger than the fisherman's bend, sheet bend or reef knot" -
Wikipedia.

If I care more about reliability than rope strength or ease of undoing,
I'll use a fishermans' bend instead. Figure-8 bend is painful to make,
and double overhand is hard to undo. Ring bend (water knot) is good for
webbing but harder to both make and undo than Hunter's.

No turn of the rope is around fewer than two diameters of rope so it
gets maximum strength from the rope. I've never had one jam - it undoes
as easily as does a bowline and in the same way. Compared to the reef
knot that every scout is taught to use, it is superior in every way. The
reef knot buckles and fails totally if it hits a pulley - even a sheet
bend is better than that.

The method for tying it (shown on Wikipedia) is hopeless, there's a much
simpler way. Hold the two overlapping strands parallel, form a loop, and
flip both ends through. It pops into the correct form when you yank on it.

I like monkey's fist for putting a handle on the end of a rope, but you
sure need a lot of spare rope: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey's_fist>

Clifford Heath

 

[George Herold]

On Tuesday, June 11, 2019 at 10:47:01 AM UTC-4, glen walpert wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 16:14:41 +1000, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 11/6/19 5:42 am, RichD wrote:
Recently I reviewed my old Boy Scout knots, and could only remember
four. Contrary to Winston Churchill's quip, it appears whiskey has
taken more out me, than I've taken out of whiskey -

So I'm looking for a list of recommended knots to learn (or re-learn).
Now you retort: why come here, just find a book, sheesh!

The problem is, those books feature 50+ knots, many of them redundant.
It's called information overload. What I need is a curator. I figure a
dozen, I could handle that. More specifically, for each knot, WHAT
FOR,
what's the application?

Why am I asking this oddball question on this board?
Cuz the IQ of this group is 20 points above the rest of the internet.
Engineers know lots of useful stuff -

Any sailors/mountaineers/horsemen here?

--
Rich


Most people know figure-8 (stop knot), bowline, sheet bend, reef knot
and clove hitch. Drop the reef knot, and add the trucker's hitch (for
tying loads) and Hunter's knot for a very strong rope-joining bend.

Especially Hunter's knot, it's awesome. Most scouts (and books) don't
even know it.

Clifford Heath.

Hunter's hitch? Generally not recommended because of relatively low
strength and jams under moderate load. I would never use it; the
figure-8 bend, ring bend or double overhand bend are all better in all
regards. Just because you can't untie it doesn't mean it is strong!

My two preferred sources of knot info are "On Rope:..." by Bruce Smith,
which has excellent info on selecting the best rope for the job as well
as detailed info on the most useful climbing and rigging knots:

https://www.amazon.com/Rope-American-Vertical-Techniques-Rappellers/
dp/1879961059

And more applicable to my typical use, "The Tree Climber's Companion: A
Reference And Training Manual For Professional Tree Climbers". Since I
am not a professional I review the later book prior to every climb to be
sure I am not forgetting anything.

Both of these books emphasize learning a small number of knots very well,
rather than learning a large number of knots. They go well beyond what
the OP wanted, but they are fairly cheap and interesting IMHO.

Glen

Huh nice, I like the figure eight bend.
I think we should classify knots into two categories.
Permanent, and those that are meant to be untied.
I like the fishermen's bend as a perm. splice.
(for tents/ tarps and stuff. Nothing with a
life hanging on the end of the rope...
well a fish life is OK :^)

George H.

These days with ratchet straps, I hardly use ropes
anymore.

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, June 11, 2019 at 4:03:14 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 17:19:42 -0400, DJ Delorie wrote:

bowline - easy to tie, won't self-constrict under tension

For some introductory sailing course I did a while ago, I had to learn
the bowline, the stopper, the sheet bend and the clove hitch. I practiced
tying them every evening for six months. This might sound excessive, but
for some reason I *seriously* struggled to remember how to tie them (even
the simplest ones) between practice sessions. Then one evening shortly
before my exam, I found I couldn't remember how to tie *any* of them. No
matter how hard I tried, I could not make any of those knots! Same next
evening and the next and the next. I withdrew from the exam - and sailing
in general as well as a result.
I'd be intrigued to know why, when I have such an excellent memory in all
other respects, there's just a gaping great hole in whatever part of the
brain it is that deals with tying knots. I find the whole process of
tying knots utterly baffling.
Still, I suppose we *all* have our shortcomings in some area or another.
:-/

That is strange. I find that if I look at how I analyze things it is all done with images. So the things I can't use images to represent easily are hard for me, like names. Knots are not hard once I "see" all the features of the knot. That's why I never remember the alpine butterfly knot. I don't have a clear mental image of the 3D configuration and remembering the steps to tie it have to be practiced to retain.

I say that is strange, because I figure most scientific types are similar, but maybe not.

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2019-06-10, RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

Recently I reviewed my old Boy Scout knots, and could
only remember four. Contrary to Winston Churchill's
quip, it appears whiskey has taken more out me, than I've
taken out of whiskey -

So I'm looking for a list of recommended knots to learn
(or re-learn). Now you retort: why come here, just find
a book, sheesh!

The problem is, those books feature 50+ knots, many
of them redundant. It's called information overload.
What I need is a curator. I figure a dozen, I could
handle that. More specifically, for each knot, WHAT FOR,
what's the application?

not convinced.

Why am I asking this oddball question on this board?
Cuz the IQ of this group is 20 points above the rest
of the internet. Engineers know lots of useful stuff -

This "enginner" knows that the knots you want are in the
scout manual.

https://www.traditionalscouting.co.uk/documents/scout_handbook/The%20Scout%20Handbook.pdf
page 11

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.

 

Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote in
news:qdq53d$aoe$1@gonzo.revmaps.no-ip.org:

On 2019-06-10, RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
Recently I reviewed my old Boy Scout knots, and could
only remember four. Contrary to Winston Churchill's
quip, it appears whiskey has taken more out me, than I've
taken out of whiskey -

So I'm looking for a list of recommended knots to learn
(or re-learn). Now you retort: why come here, just find
a book, sheesh!

The problem is, those books feature 50+ knots, many
of them redundant. It's called information overload.
What I need is a curator. I figure a dozen, I could
handle that. More specifically, for each knot, WHAT FOR,
what's the application?

not convinced.

Why am I asking this oddball question on this board?
Cuz the IQ of this group is 20 points above the rest
of the internet. Engineers know lots of useful stuff -

This "enginner" knows that the knots you want are in the
scout manual.

https://www.traditionalscouting.co.uk/documents/scout_handbook/The
%
20Scout%20Handbook.pdf page 11

"These are not the knots you are looking for..." -Obi Wan Kenobi

 

[Clive Arthur]

On 11/06/2019 23:19, RichD wrote:
<snip>

I couldn't remember the bowline! Back in the day, I could
tie one with one hand, a good party trick -

--
Rich

A good party trick for kids is to place a short length of rope in front
of them and ask them to hold one end in each hand then tie a knot
without letting go. Of course, the trick is to fold (knot) your arms first.

Cheers
--
Clive

 

[mpm]

On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 4:18:14 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:

What four knots do you know/ use?
Except for some weird fishing line knots, I may
only use four. Except for the square knot I don't know the names.

The only knot I know is the proverbial Gordian Knot.
Which for some odd reason, seems to be tightly coupled to my employment.

 

mpm <mpmillard@aol.com> wrote in
news:d90fa8b6-ea34-4f24-bbec-a0ed54afb88e@googlegroups.com:

On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 4:18:14 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:

What four knots do you know/ use?
Except for some weird fishing line knots, I may
only use four. Except for the square knot I don't know the names.

The only knot I know is the proverbial Gordian Knot.
Which for some odd reason, seems to be tightly coupled to my
employment.

The best way to untie a Gordian Knot is with a Light Saber.

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 19:50:18 -0700, Rick C wrote:

> That is strange.

Fortunately it didn't matter anyway. By that time I'd learned that I
*detested* every single second of my short time trying to sail a yacht.
It made me feel even more suicidal than cutting the lawn does (I have
people do that for me now, thank god).
But I'm far from alone. A popular saying among ex-boat owners is, "the
two finest days of boat ownership are the day you buy it and the day you
sell it."
Actually that reminds me of another piece of maritime folk wisdom:
"before buying a boat, first check you are suited to sailing by standing
under a cold shower whilst tearing up 50 pound notes."



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